Post by makesends on Oct 23, 2022 19:36:23 GMT -8
Oct 23, 2022 11:12:02 GMT -8 @josheb said:
1) Do you believe the Old Testament saints were not born again?
2) Are they not to see the Kingdom of Heaven (John 3)?
3) Was their faith not given them by the Spirit of God?
4) Does not the Romans 8 principle apply to them as to current man, that the heart after the flesh cannot please God?
2) Are they not to see the Kingdom of Heaven (John 3)?
3) Was their faith not given them by the Spirit of God?
4) Does not the Romans 8 principle apply to them as to current man, that the heart after the flesh cannot please God?
I will briefly answer question #2 in this comment as I continue to expound on the wisdom and logic of dispensational thinking.
2) Are they (Old Testament saints) not to see the Kingdom of Heaven (John 3)?
You seem to be drawing a conclusion that OT saints will never have the Spirit of God and enter into the kingdom. That is not what the scriptures teach. It simply means that no one can have the Spirit of God while they have sin in them. Logic: if it could have been so then certainly Jesus would not have had to die for our sins. Why did he have to die for our sins to redeem us? Because his blood was the only cleansing agent for sin. No one can be saved unless Jesus Christ would have been willing to become a man and live a perfect God pleasing life and then shed his precious blood to wash away our sins. But washing away our sins is the negative part; He is now able to renew us to the trinitarian nature by giving us his holy Spirit, thus making us in the image of God through himself as we take on his image, soul, body, and the Holy Ghost as our very person-hood.
Ga 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (He did not shed the Holy Ghost on us through Noah or Abraham, or Moses).
Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
So then, when will the OT saints receive forgiveness of sins and have the trinitarian nature renewed. It is before the beginning of the church of Jesus Christ but after the resurrection. It is at their resurrection, called by God the children of the resurrection. They are the firstfruits of the three part resurrection as typified in the spring feasts of Israel, the Passover, the feast of unleavened bread, the feast of first-fruits, and the festival thereof.
Ex 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Lu 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Justified OT saints go to paradise, one of the three sections of Hell in the center of the earth, awaiting the Spirit.
Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into (1) Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And (2) in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is (3) a great gulf fixed (the bottomless pit): so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into (1) Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And (2) in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is (3) a great gulf fixed (the bottomless pit): so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
MT 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
The FORBEARANCE of God on behalf of OT saints who he had justified by faith.
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
And here;
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
The OT saints are resurrected but they are not a part of the church of Jesus Christ.
So, my answer to question #2 is; Yes, they are to see the kingdom of God. They are in it and it is in them.