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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2022 7:56:07 GMT -8
Dispensational Premillennialism Has a Long History of False Teachers Teaching False PredictionsWhen Dispensational Premillennialism was introduced in the early 1800s it quickly led to many predictions about what was expected at that time to be the soon, imminent, return of Christ. led to chronic, repeated, continuous false teachings. At first Dispensational Premillennialism was associated by label specifically to the writings/teachings of John Darby, but the belief in a separation between Israel and the Church, along with the belief in the needed overhaul (restoration) of the Church, and the imminent apocalypse were shared by a variety of sects in the 1800s. Because of the beliefs the Church was corrupt and soon-occurring apocalypse, preachers began making a series of predictions and not a single one of them came true. One of the most observable occurrences of this in the 19th century isn't specifically Dispensationalist! The of "The Great Disappointment" was the invention of premillennialist William Miller, who believed the whole of scripture should be used and if a person was about to piece together its whole without contradiction, then he couldn't be incorrect. During the Second Great Awakening the formerly Baptist preacher William Miller predicted Jesus would return by October 22, 1844. His teachings were instrumental in the forming of the Adventist movement (those hoping in the imminent advent of Christ) and from them was formed the Seventh Day Adventist movement. When October 22nd came and went and Christians hadn't been removed from the earth in a rapture and Jesus hadn't returned, Miller and the Adventists were ridiculed. One follower at the time wrote, " I waited all Tuesday [October 22] and dear Jesus did not come;—I waited all the forenoon of Wednesday, and was well in body as I ever was, but after 12 o'clock I began to feel faint, and before dark I needed someone to help me up to my chamber, as my natural strength was leaving me very fast, and I lay prostrate for 2 days without any pain—sick with disappointment." Did that stop Miller or other apocalyptic teachers from making predications? We all know the answer is a loud and unequivocal, " NO!" Since its inception Dispensationally Premillennial teachers have been making a series of predictions and not a single one of them has ever come true. Not one. This can be observed on an almost daily basis anytime any Christian turns on the radio, turns on the television, or views a webcast. As I have noted on many prior occasions where the early history has been posted, this problem began in early and mid-1800s with the rise of what became known as the “restoration movement” of which John Darby’s views were only a part. Darby’s hermeneutic assumed three things: - Dispensations exist wherein God engages humans differently and these dispensations are not related to one another in any cohesive or unified manner,
- All scripture, especially Old Testament prophesy, should be read literally, and
- There is a distinct and non-overlapping separation between Israel and the Church.
This hermeneutic comes accompanied with the beliefs the Church is corrupt and in need of restoration that will not happen so Jesus will rapture away the Church and bring about the apocalypse. None of these measures as scriptural. None of them were held historically by the mainstream, orthodox Chruch prior to the 19th century, either. So, the introduction of the Dispensationalist hermeneutic should be understood as one the preeminent sources for the abhorrent (and aberrant) practice of false predictions. As I have already documented HERE, it is not a modern phenomenon based on some twisting, abuse or perversion of Darby’s views. Darby’s teachings themselves are in error and they have begotten further error in both thought, doctrine, and practice. I'd again like to make it clear, the concept of a "dispensation" is not new, and the term can be found in the Bible. The existence of the word is not in dispute. The Dispensationalist treatment of the word, however, is not found in scripture. That link will show two Dispensationalists defending Dispensationalism unable to prove their use is taught in the Bible. It's ironic because the Dispensationalist demands scripture be read literally but s/he has applied the concept of dispensations without scripture labeling itself as they do. The Dispensationalist has, instead, given it a new significance and a new application to the term. Much built on this new and different and false teaching proves false, but this op is specifically on the matter of false predictions. As part of the restoration movement, Darby and the Dispensationalists vilified the Church. The core belief of all the restorations sects was the belief the Church is corrupt and in need of restoration. The problem, sectarian-wise, was that each sect had its own idea of what restoration looked like. Each appealed to some earlier stage of the Church found in scripture but none of them agreed and all of them appealed to scripture selectively. In the case of Dispensationalism Darby argued the Church was so corrupt only his little sect was the true Church. At first this was the Brethren movement in general, but eventually he and a few others separated from the other Brethren groups and then he himself, amidst intractable and irreconcilable differences with his buddies, left to form his own group, the Extreme Brethren, within the Brethren congregations. Individuals and sects claiming they are the true Church isn’t just false teaching, it is a landmark feature of cults. Darby believed the Church should separate entirely from the world. He and the subsequent leaders of Dispensationalism believed Christians should NOT participate in politics of social policy. They taught and continue to teach a “two kingdoms” theology in which the kingdom of God and the kingdom of the world remain distinctly separate, and Christians are to have nothing whatsoever to do with the things of the world. They often appeal to the “two kingdoms” of Augustine’s “The City of God,” but they grossly misrepresent Augustine’s teaching to make it something entirely different and apply it for entirely different purpose. The scriptures teach God’s kingdom is not of this world, but it is decidedly on this world in the forms of God's Providence, Christ's incarnation, the presence of the Church, and the work of the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, the Church is NOT to be separate; it is to preach and apply the gospel in all areas of life, making disciples of all the nations, baptizing them and teaching them the commands of Christ. Now, while this teaching of separation has changed in the last few decades (largely due to the influence of Francis Schaeffer, and Roe v Wade), it remains a prominent feature of Dispensationalism found in the belief that the Church will not prevail over the gates of hell but will instead become increasingly impotent and the world goes to hell in a handbasket (because of the Church’s absence) and will need to be rescued in a rapture wherein it is removed from the planet, leaving the earth Churchless, without any witness to Christ but the supposedly prophesied absence. It is a false teaching. The Millerite's Great Disappointment wasn't the the only false prediction of the 1800s. In the late 1800s in America the Civil War was the sign ( the sign, not merely a sign) the end of the world was nigh. The inventions of machines made war increasingly destructive and in the early 1900s the " war to end all wars" prompted a new wave of harbingers making false predictions. The same ensued with the rise of existentialism and Communism and WWII and then the rise of modern Israel and Korea, Viet Nam, the Seven Days War, and on and on and on and not a single one of the predictions ever coming true. In the 1960s and 70 a plethora of new teachers arose predicting Christ’s return by 1988, forty years after the inception of modern Israel. These include, but are not limited to, Chuck Smith the founder of the Calvary Chapel sect of congregations, John Walvoord, former president of Dallas Theological Seminary (the leading Dispensationalist seminary in the world), Pat Robertson of CBN and the 700 Club, and most infamously, Hal Lindsay. Even Billy Grahem fell prey to this practice (and as far as I know is the only one to have expressed any regret). Since their time others have risen, such as David Jeremiah, who make predictions based on the latest news cycle and millions of dollars off the sales of their apocalyptic sermons and books. When these predictions don't happen “adjustments” are made and none of those predictions don't come true, either. In the last 20-25 years there has been a move away from specific "date setting," to a broader "time-frame setting," but they have refused to stop making appeals to soon-occurring events that still nonetheless never happen. Anyone and everyone reading this opening post can turn on their radio, turn to the Christian broadcast station and here Dispensationally Premillennial teachers making predictions that do not and will not come true. Each and every one of them a false teacher who is teaching falsely based on the views of a 19th century false teacher. * No other theology fosters this behavior to this degree or for such an enduring period of time, and not without in-house correction. It is unique to Dispensational Premillennialism. *Clarification: Many Dispensational Premillennial leaders teach a proper doctrine of God, a mostly correct Christology, a mainstream soteriology, hamartiology, or other basic doctrines of historical, mainstream, orthodox Christianity. It is their eschatology that leads to false predictions. Furthermore, Historical Premillennialists do not generally fall into this category of false predictions. It is specifically Dispensational Premillennialists that do this chronically... and they've been doing it for 200 years.
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Post by Redeemed on Apr 9, 2023 5:14:13 GMT -8
Dispensational Premillennialism gets my vote.
Dispensational premillennialists distinguish the rapture from the second coming of Christ, believing that the Church will be raptured prior to the tribulation period (the pretribulational point of view), and that Christ’s second coming will occur at the end of the tribulation.
Dispensational premillennialists recognize three principle sections of Scripture to reveal the rapture:
John 14:3 And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself, that where I am you may be also.
1 Corinthians 15:51–52 Take notice! I tell you a mystery (a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God). We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed (transformed) 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed).
1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 Now also we would not have you ignorant, brethren, about those who fall asleep [in death], that you may not grieve [for them] as the rest do who have no hope [beyond the grave]. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep [in death]. 15 For this we declare to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words.
These verses have the following characteristics in common:
(1) they state nothing of a preceding tribulation, (2) they state plainly that the immediate destination of the Church after the rapture is heaven, not the millennial kingdom on earth, (3)and there is no mention of Christ’s earthly reign immediately following.
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Post by civic on Apr 9, 2023 5:35:56 GMT -8
Dispensational Premillennialism gets my vote. Dispensational premillennialists distinguish the rapture from the second coming of Christ, believing that the Church will be raptured prior to the tribulation period (the pretribulational point of view), and that Christ’s second coming will occur at the end of the tribulation. Dispensational premillennialists recognize three principle sections of Scripture to reveal the rapture: John 14:3 And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself, that where I am you may be also. 1 Corinthians 15:51–52 Take notice! I tell you a mystery (a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God). We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed (transformed) 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed). 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 Now also we would not have you ignorant, brethren, about those who fall asleep [in death], that you may not grieve [for them] as the rest do who have no hope [beyond the grave]. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep [in death]. 15 For this we declare to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words. These verses have the following characteristics in common: (1) they state nothing of a preceding tribulation, (2) they state plainly that the immediate destination of the Church after the rapture is heaven, not the millennial kingdom on earth, (3)and there is no mention of Christ’s earthly reign immediately following. Yes the OP is nothing but a fallacy . If we went by his criteria then he must reject PSA since it’s is the most recent theory and the reformation too.
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Post by armylngst on Jul 8, 2023 14:54:19 GMT -8
Dispensational Premillennialism gets my vote. Dispensational premillennialists distinguish the rapture from the second coming of Christ, believing that the Church will be raptured prior to the tribulation period (the pretribulational point of view), and that Christ’s second coming will occur at the end of the tribulation. Dispensational premillennialists recognize three principle sections of Scripture to reveal the rapture: John 14:3 And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself, that where I am you may be also. 1 Corinthians 15:51–52 Take notice! I tell you a mystery (a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God). We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed (transformed) 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed). 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 Now also we would not have you ignorant, brethren, about those who fall asleep [in death], that you may not grieve [for them] as the rest do who have no hope [beyond the grave]. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep [in death]. 15 For this we declare to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words. These verses have the following characteristics in common: (1) they state nothing of a preceding tribulation, (2) they state plainly that the immediate destination of the Church after the rapture is heaven, not the millennial kingdom on earth, (3)and there is no mention of Christ’s earthly reign immediately following. Yes the OP is nothing but a fallacy . If we went by his criteria then he must reject PSA since it’s is the most recent theory and the reformation too. You also have to reject preterism, as it is also more recent and is completely absent from the records of the early church. The original beliefs of amillennialism were not preterist. Preterism came out in the Counter Reformation as part of the attempt to lure protestants back into the Catholic Church. Preterism wasn't even mainstream in the United States until about the 1970s. I am a futurist premillennialist that agrees with parts of dispensationalism in regards to Israel's part in the tribulation, however, I don't agree with dispensationalism (or covenant theology) on other things. I do agree that I got some good sleep during that part of class.
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Post by civic on Jul 8, 2023 14:56:39 GMT -8
Yes the OP is nothing but a fallacy . If we went by his criteria then he must reject PSA since it’s is the most recent theory and the reformation too. You also have to reject preterism, as it is also more recent and is completely absent from the records of the early church. The original beliefs of amillennialism were not preterist. Preterism came out in the Counter Reformation as part of the attempt to lure protestants back into the Catholic Church. Preterism wasn't even mainstream in the United States until about the 1970s. I am a futurist premillennialist that agrees with parts of dispensationalism in regards to Israel's part in the tribulation, however, I don't agree with dispensationalism (or covenant theology) on other things. I do agree that I got some good sleep during that part of class. I completely agree and I also reject the reformed covenant theology which lumps Israel and the church together .
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arial
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Posts: 60
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Post by arial on Jul 9, 2023 8:22:04 GMT -8
What then do you make of Eph 2:11-17 Therefore remember time you Gentiles in the flesh, called uncircumcumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands---remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
And Rom 9?
Reformed covenant theology does not lump Israel and church together the way I see it.
Who makes up Israel? The people of God as opposed to those who are not the people of God.
Scripture tells us that Gentile believers are grafted into Israel, adopted as sons of God---His people. Not ethnically or nationally, but spiritually, through faith in the Redeemer. And not into unfaithful Israel but faithful Israel, Jesus. Jesus is the true Seed of Abraham and those who put their trust in Him are the true descendants of Abraham. Salvation by grace through faith. Covenant theology agrees with scripture that the two are made one. Not one replacing the other.
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Post by armylngst on Jul 9, 2023 20:09:30 GMT -8
What then do you make of Eph 2:11-17 Therefore remember time you Gentiles in the flesh, called uncircumcumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands---remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
And Rom 9? Reformed covenant theology does not lump Israel and church together the way I see it. Who makes up Israel? The people of God as opposed to those who are not the people of God. Scripture tells us that Gentile believers are grafted into Israel, adopted as sons of God---His people. Not ethnically or nationally, but spiritually, through faith in the Redeemer. And not into unfaithful Israel but faithful Israel, Jesus. Jesus is the true Seed of Abraham and those who put their trust in Him are the true descendants of Abraham. Salvation by grace through faith. Covenant theology agrees with scripture that the two are made one. Not one replacing the other. On Ephesians in general, it deals with the "racism" or the hatred that exists between the Jews and the Gentiles, that the Jews were not easily getting over. In their law, to associate with a Gentile was death. Peter brought this up when he visited with Cornelius. It was the purpose of the vision God gave Peter. That didn't actually have anything to do with food. God greatly exagerrated the vision, so that Peter would understand that God was saying that it was okay to go with the Gentiles, and that he (and the Jewish believers) were not to see Gentiles as the enemy anymore. As Paul said, the Jews are now the enemies of the Gentiles for the sake of the gospel. (Outside the church). Inside the church, Jesus put to death the enmity that existed between the Jews and the Gentiles in His body, so there is no longer any separation between them in the body of Christ. So in the church, Gentiles and Jews are one. Outside of the church you still have Gentiles and the nation of Israel, the Jews. God still has a plan for that nation of Israel outside of the church, and at the end of time, those in the nation of Israel that are part of God's elect, will be saved. They will be ushered in, after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Scripture also tells us that the Gentiles are foreign to that olive tree, not the same. They are not changed into natural branches of the olive tree, but are grafted in as foreign branches. Paul also goes on to say that the Jews don't cease to be the natural branches of the olive tree, so grafting them in would be natural. The only reason they were removed was for unbelief. The reason why Paul speaks of a partial blindness, or a partial hardening is because there will still be Jews joining the church, however, the bulk of the elect within Israel will be saved at Jesus second coming. (Zechariah 12). It is the reason why in Jeremiah, no Jew (after Christ returns) will say, know God, because ALL will know Him, because all are saved. (The remnant will be all that is standing after Christ returns.)
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Post by civic on Jul 10, 2023 5:33:17 GMT -8
What then do you make of Eph 2:11-17 Therefore remember time you Gentiles in the flesh, called uncircumcumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands---remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
And Rom 9? Reformed covenant theology does not lump Israel and church together the way I see it. Who makes up Israel? The people of God as opposed to those who are not the people of God. Scripture tells us that Gentile believers are grafted into Israel, adopted as sons of God---His people. Not ethnically or nationally, but spiritually, through faith in the Redeemer. And not into unfaithful Israel but faithful Israel, Jesus. Jesus is the true Seed of Abraham and those who put their trust in Him are the true descendants of Abraham. Salvation by grace through faith. Covenant theology agrees with scripture that the two are made one. Not one replacing the other. On Ephesians in general, it deals with the "racism" or the hatred that exists between the Jews and the Gentiles, that the Jews were not easily getting over. In their law, to associate with a Gentile was death. Peter brought this up when he visited with Cornelius. It was the purpose of the vision God gave Peter. That didn't actually have anything to do with food. God greatly exagerrated the vision, so that Peter would understand that God was saying that it was okay to go with the Gentiles, and that he (and the Jewish believers) were not to see Gentiles as the enemy anymore. As Paul said, the Jews are now the enemies of the Gentiles for the sake of the gospel. (Outside the church). Inside the church, Jesus put to death the enmity that existed between the Jews and the Gentiles in His body, so there is no longer any separation between them in the body of Christ. So in the church, Gentiles and Jews are one. Outside of the church you still have Gentiles and the nation of Israel, the Jews. God still has a plan for that nation of Israel outside of the church, and at the end of time, those in the nation of Israel that are part of God's elect, will be saved. They will be ushered in, after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Scripture also tells us that the Gentiles are foreign to that olive tree, not the same. They are not changed into natural branches of the olive tree, but are grafted in as foreign branches. Paul also goes on to say that the Jews don't cease to be the natural branches of the olive tree, so grafting them in would be natural. The only reason they were removed was for unbelief. The reason why Paul speaks of a partial blindness, or a partial hardening is because there will still be Jews joining the church, however, the bulk of the elect within Israel will be saved at Jesus second coming. (Zechariah 12). It is the reason why in Jeremiah, no Jew (after Christ returns) will say, know God, because ALL will know Him, because all are saved. (The remnant will be all that is standing after Christ returns.) Exactly well said !
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arial
Junior Member
Posts: 60
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Post by arial on Jul 10, 2023 6:00:35 GMT -8
What then do you make of Eph 2:11-17 Therefore remember time you Gentiles in the flesh, called uncircumcumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands---remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
And Rom 9? Reformed covenant theology does not lump Israel and church together the way I see it. Who makes up Israel? The people of God as opposed to those who are not the people of God. Scripture tells us that Gentile believers are grafted into Israel, adopted as sons of God---His people. Not ethnically or nationally, but spiritually, through faith in the Redeemer. And not into unfaithful Israel but faithful Israel, Jesus. Jesus is the true Seed of Abraham and those who put their trust in Him are the true descendants of Abraham. Salvation by grace through faith. Covenant theology agrees with scripture that the two are made one. Not one replacing the other. On Ephesians in general, it deals with the "racism" or the hatred that exists between the Jews and the Gentiles, that the Jews were not easily getting over. In their law, to associate with a Gentile was death. Peter brought this up when he visited with Cornelius. It was the purpose of the vision God gave Peter. That didn't actually have anything to do with food. God greatly exagerrated the vision, so that Peter would understand that God was saying that it was okay to go with the Gentiles, and that he (and the Jewish believers) were not to see Gentiles as the enemy anymore. As Paul said, the Jews are now the enemies of the Gentiles for the sake of the gospel. (Outside the church). Inside the church, Jesus put to death the enmity that existed between the Jews and the Gentiles in His body, so there is no longer any separation between them in the body of Christ. So in the church, Gentiles and Jews are one. Outside of the church you still have Gentiles and the nation of Israel, the Jews. God still has a plan for that nation of Israel outside of the church, and at the end of time, those in the nation of Israel that are part of God's elect, will be saved. They will be ushered in, after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Scripture also tells us that the Gentiles are foreign to that olive tree, not the same. They are not changed into natural branches of the olive tree, but are grafted in as foreign branches. Paul also goes on to say that the Jews don't cease to be the natural branches of the olive tree, so grafting them in would be natural. The only reason they were removed was for unbelief. The reason why Paul speaks of a partial blindness, or a partial hardening is because there will still be Jews joining the church, however, the bulk of the elect within Israel will be saved at Jesus second coming. (Zechariah 12). It is the reason why in Jeremiah, no Jew (after Christ returns) will say, know God, because ALL will know Him, because all are saved. (The remnant will be all that is standing after Christ returns.)
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arial
Junior Member
Posts: 60
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Post by arial on Jul 10, 2023 7:20:46 GMT -8
Well almost everyone states their eschatological views as though they were indisputable fact. And they find scriptural reasons for their view though usually they involve presuppositions laid over the scripture and therefore in my opinion cannot be considered facts. No matter what view is being taken. The one absolute fact that we know is Jesus will return putting His last enemy, death, under His feet. Meaning the complete destruction of all evil and complete restoration of creation.
But here is something to consider. Scripture always refers to Christ in reference to Zion. Not Sinai. The second is Law and the earthly. The first represents the spiritual.
The Temple was built on Mt. Zion near Jerusalem and Jerusalem itself is referred to as Zion. The Temple was designed by God and was a representation of, made according to the pattern of what was in heaven. The heavenly Jerusalem.
It was where God met with His people---national Israel---where they came to worship Him and offer sacrifices for their sins.
It is interesting to note that in 70 a.d. this temple was destroyed and along with it the priesthood of national Israel, therefore the sacrifices, and the line of the priesthood can no longer be traced. The entire Sinai system was destroyed. I personally find it unfathomable that the earthly system would be rebuilt and the system of worship reinstated since Jesus was crowned King of Zion at His ascension. We now worship in spirit and in truth. John 4:19-24.
And for those who say that the Temple will be rebuilt; it cannot be rebuilt where it once stood as in its place is the al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock. one of the oldest Islamic structures in the world. Something to ponder the significance of as I present what I am presenting in terms of the earthly vs. the spiritual Jerusalem. The natural Israel vs. the spiritual Israel.
We see natural Israel and the purpose it was serving and the arrival of spiritual Israel in Gal 3:23-29.Natural Israel is the Law, Sinai,(the natural descendents of Abraham) and spiritual Israel is those in Christ through faith, the true offspring of Abraham. Two promises given to Abraham, both active simultaneously. One fulfilled in the Sinai covenant, the other advancing towards fulfillment in Christ and the new covenant. When the new arrives, the first is done away with.
We also have Rom 9:1-13,23-24,30-33.
So my position is that it is not nations,natural Israel and Gentile nations, that are each receiving the same salvation through faith in Christ but at different times and through different means as is posited in dispensationalism; but the promises given to natural Israel as to the throne of David, and all others, are fulfilled in Christ. I do not believe that God is going to have natural Israel also become spiritual Israel through a literal thousand years in which Jesus sits on the throne of natural Israel, and as some say, reinstate the animal sacrifices. that if that were true, would be sacrificing bulls an lambs to the the One who made the final sacrifice.
There are one people of God. He has but one body. Those who are in Him. And therefore, I believe the last days are these days, a thousand represents an ungiven long period of time, and Jesus has defeated the power of sin and death for the believer, and as such is already crowned as King (His ascension was His crowning), in this period of time the gospel continues to spread and people are added to the kingdom. He has only one second coming, not two, one secret in that it isn't seen by the world (fat chance they wouldn't notice it) and another that all the world sees.
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Post by civic on Jul 10, 2023 8:48:05 GMT -8
Paul in Romans 9-11 makes the distinction with national Israel , the people of God and their promises yet to be fulfilled and the church .
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arial
Junior Member
Posts: 60
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Post by arial on Jul 10, 2023 11:29:22 GMT -8
There is no distinction between believers of national Israel and the people of God not of national Israel. Christ has one body. What promises yet to be fulfilled for national Israel does Romans 9-11 point out?
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Post by armylngst on Jul 10, 2023 23:05:36 GMT -8
Well almost everyone states their eschatological views as though they were indisputable fact. And they find scriptural reasons for their view though usually they involve presuppositions laid over the scripture and therefore in my opinion cannot be considered facts. No matter what view is being taken. The one absolute fact that we know is Jesus will return putting His last enemy, death, under His feet. Meaning the complete destruction of all evil and complete restoration of creation. But here is something to consider. Scripture always refers to Christ in reference to Zion. Not Sinai. The second is Law and the earthly. The first represents the spiritual. The Temple was built on Mt. Zion near Jerusalem and Jerusalem itself is referred to as Zion. The Temple was designed by God and was a representation of, made according to the pattern of what was in heaven. The heavenly Jerusalem. It was where God met with His people---national Israel---where they came to worship Him and offer sacrifices for their sins. It is interesting to note that in 70 a.d. this temple was destroyed and along with it the priesthood of national Israel, therefore the sacrifices, and the line of the priesthood can no longer be traced. The entire Sinai system was destroyed. I personally find it unfathomable that the earthly system would be rebuilt and the system of worship reinstated since Jesus was crowned King of Zion at His ascension. We now worship in spirit and in truth. John 4:19-24. And for those who say that the Temple will be rebuilt; it cannot be rebuilt where it once stood as in its place is the al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock. one of the oldest Islamic structures in the world. Something to ponder the significance of as I present what I am presenting in terms of the earthly vs. the spiritual Jerusalem. The natural Israel vs. the spiritual Israel. We see natural Israel and the purpose it was serving and the arrival of spiritual Israel in Gal 3:23-29.Natural Israel is the Law, Sinai,(the natural descendents of Abraham) and spiritual Israel is those in Christ through faith, the true offspring of Abraham. Two promises given to Abraham, both active simultaneously. One fulfilled in the Sinai covenant, the other advancing towards fulfillment in Christ and the new covenant. When the new arrives, the first is done away with. We also have Rom 9:1-13,23-24,30-33. So my position is that it is not nations,natural Israel and Gentile nations, that are each receiving the same salvation through faith in Christ but at different times and through different means as is posited in dispensationalism; but the promises given to natural Israel as to the throne of David, and all others, are fulfilled in Christ. I do not believe that God is going to have natural Israel also become spiritual Israel through a literal thousand years in which Jesus sits on the throne of natural Israel, and as some say, reinstate the animal sacrifices. that if that were true, would be sacrificing bulls an lambs to the the One who made the final sacrifice. There are one people of God. He has but one body. Those who are in Him. And therefore, I believe the last days are these days, a thousand represents an ungiven long period of time, and Jesus has defeated the power of sin and death for the believer, and as such is already crowned as King (His ascension was His crowning), in this period of time the gospel continues to spread and people are added to the kingdom. He has only one second coming, not two, one secret in that it isn't seen by the world (fat chance they wouldn't notice it) and another that all the world sees. Don't get confused by eschatology. Out of all there is in eschatology, my foundational understanding of the whole context of scripture is that it is a story about God love for His chosen people, and their ultimate salvation. Along the way, others get dragged into the drama, and God saves them as well. (I was trying to decide a less bland way of describing it.) However, God wrote the book, and wrote it in that way. All will be saved, but it is due to all scripture has for us, with the drama between God and Israel and all. Consider this in light of Jesus parable of the wedding party. The Master (father of the groom) gives out invitations to the rich, and the people He knows. When the day approaches, He calls them all to the feast, and they all reject. This is Israel rejecting the Messiah. The people of God. What is the response of the Master? He had his servants go out and gather all the undesireables and the poor and gather them to His feast. This would be, in essence, the Gentiles. Due to the rejection of the original guest list, a new list was created, and the Gentiles brought in. When you look at Romans in light of this, God will circle back to the Jews and gather in His elect from amongst the Jews once He has gathered up the Gentile elect. Some say that this is two programs, or a division, however, Paul brings it all together and says that God has locked up all in disobedience that He may show mercy to all. The Gentiles were disobedient first, then the Jews, through which mercy came to the Gentiles. In the end, due to the mercy shown to the Gentiles, God will show mercy to the Jews. Hence, both the Jews and Gentiles were disobedient, and God showed mercy to both the Jews and the Gentiles. God required the Jews to be disobedient. If I talk about exactly what I see in Romans 11, Israel remains Israel, however the Gentiles are brought into Israel. The foreign branch to the tree, which could represent Israel. The tree never changes, and the foreign branches are always shown as foreign branches. However, they are grafted in, so they get nourishment from the tree just as much as the natural branches do. The church does not replace Israel. The church is separate from the nation of Israel (secular), but will not always be. Secular Israel are those who were removed from the tree, however, Paul speaks immediately of the path of their return. (possible return.) There is no such path for Gentiles. If it were possible to find themselves removed from the tree, there is no going back. The rapture may or may not be seen. (It depends on how close to hell the handbasket is...) Also, there is a great deception going on, which is so great that it could possibly deceive even the elect. The effect on my eschatology is that the end times found in prophecy and Revelation, are not longer about the judgment of Israel, but of the whole world. Israel has a part to play, but the stage is the whole world. God's final dealings with His creation, before He destroys it and presents a new heavens and new earth. My belief on that is that God will release His power that has held together every atom in the universe, and we will get to see one awesome nuclear blast when every atom splits at the same time... The elements truly will melt in a fervent heat.
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Post by armylngst on Jul 10, 2023 23:21:38 GMT -8
There is no distinction between believers of national Israel and the people of God not of national Israel. Christ has one body. What promises yet to be fulfilled for national Israel does Romans 9-11 point out? There is a distinction. The problem is the distinction is not a division. That is what you need to understand. There is national Israel which is all the Jews who have ever existed. Some are saved and some are not. In the church, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile before God. Peter can attest to that. However, outside the church, there is a distinction between national Israel and Gentiles. Firstly, because this nation Israel speaks only to the unsaved Jews, of which some will become believers at a future time, and the Gentiles are automatically distinct from the Jews outside of the church. (Non-believing Gentiles.) Hence Romans 9-11 speaking of the Jews, yet speaking of the Gentiles as well. In the end, all will be one, as there will only be believers, and the need for distinctions such as Jews and Gentiles will be gone. (Remember, I said distinction does not mean division here. That is what has gotten the US into so much trouble. There are Americans, however some want to DIVIDE Americans into different classes due to distinctions. There are distinctions, but that does not automatically translate to division. We are all Americans. No one is less American than the next person. However, we don't all look or act alike. That changes nothing.
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arial
Junior Member
Posts: 60
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Post by arial on Jul 11, 2023 4:26:24 GMT -8
There is no distinction between believers of national Israel and the people of God not of national Israel. Christ has one body. What promises yet to be fulfilled for national Israel does Romans 9-11 point out? There is a distinction. The problem is the distinction is not a division. That is what you need to understand. There is national Israel which is all the Jews who have ever existed. Some are saved and some are not. In the church, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile before God. Peter can attest to that. However, outside the church, there is a distinction between national Israel and Gentiles. Firstly, because this nation Israel speaks only to the unsaved Jews, of which some will become believers at a future time, and the Gentiles are automatically distinct from the Jews outside of the church. (Non-believing Gentiles.) Hence Romans 9-11 speaking of the Jews, yet speaking of the Gentiles as well. In the end, all will be one, as there will only be believers, and the need for distinctions such as Jews and Gentiles will be gone. (Remember, I said distinction does not mean division here. That is what has gotten the US into so much trouble. There are Americans, however some want to DIVIDE Americans into different classes due to distinctions. There are distinctions, but that does not automatically translate to division. We are all Americans. No one is less American than the next person. However, we don't all look or act alike. That changes nothing.
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