SteveB
New Member
Learning to follow Jesus
Posts: 36
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Post by SteveB on Aug 16, 2022 18:19:13 GMT -8
Hmm....
Does Jude provide a list of some kind to define those things?
Paul tells Titus in 2:15 to
[Tit 2:15 NKJV] 15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.
So, let's say---- GRACE is worth fighting for.
[Tit 2:11-15 NKJV] 11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself [His] own special people, zealous for good works. 15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.
Granted, it seems Grace is something we need to understand too, in order to most effectively debate it.
We typically view Grace as an acronym----
God's Riches at Christ's Expense.
Also, God's unmerited favor.
While not a common definition, I once heard that a better description would be....
God's Ill-merited favor.
Ill-merited because we don't come to God as innocents. We were, by the most profound means--- sinners. Some of us were murderers, rapists, adulterers, fornicators, drunkards, drug abusers, sexually immoral, etc..... So, God's Favor, as defined in Romans 5--- while we were enemies, Christ died for us.
So.... while my pastor would say that "ill-merited" is a bad definition, it seems that it's actually a more accurate word....
While I won't specifically oppose that, it does seem somewhat cheesy.
According to Strong's Concordance, Grace is the greek word--- Charis. It means--- Favor.
So..... let's start with Grace. We read in Hebrews 12, [Heb 12:15 NKJV] 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;
Then, in Hebrews 13
[Heb 13:9 NKJV] 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For [it is] good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 17, 2022 3:53:51 GMT -8
Hmm.... Does Jude provide a list of some kind to define those things? Paul tells Titus in 2:15 to [Tit 2:15 NKJV] 15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. So, let's say---- GRACE is worth fighting for. [Tit 2:11-15 NKJV] 11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself [His] own special people, zealous for good works. 15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. Granted, it seems Grace is something we need to understand too, in order to most effectively debate it. We typically view Grace as an acronym---- God's Riches at Christ's Expense. Also, God's unmerited favor. While not a common definition, I once heard that a better description would be.... God's Ill-merited favor. Ill-merited because we don't come to God as innocents. We were, by the most profound means--- sinners. Some of us were murderers, rapists, adulterers, fornicators, drunkards, drug abusers, sexually immoral, etc..... So, God's Favor, as defined in Romans 5--- while we were enemies, Christ died for us. So.... while my pastor would say that "ill-merited" is a bad definition, it seems that it's actually a more accurate word.... While I won't specifically oppose that, it does seem somewhat cheesy. According to Strong's Concordance, Grace is the greek word--- Charis. It means--- Favor. So..... let's start with Grace. We read in Hebrews 12, [Heb 12:15 NKJV] 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; Then, in Hebrews 13 [Heb 13:9 NKJV] 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For [it is] good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them. His Grace is Enough for us. His grace comes from his great love for us. 2 Corinthians 12:9 "But he said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." The notion of God’s love coming to us free of charge, no strings attached, seems to go against every instinct of humanity. The Buddhist eight-fold path, that trick never works, the Hindu doctrine of karma never works, the Jewish covenant shows that they needed the 'anointed one’, and Muslims code of law—each of these offers a way to earn approval. But only Christianity dares to make God’s love unconditional. By grace we are saved. Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Acts 16:30-31 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” |
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Post by makesends on Aug 19, 2022 6:20:14 GMT -8
Hmm.... Does Jude provide a list of some kind to define those things? Paul tells Titus in 2:15 to [Tit 2:15 NKJV] 15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. So, let's say---- GRACE is worth fighting for. [Tit 2:11-15 NKJV] 11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself [His] own special people, zealous for good works. 15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. Granted, it seems Grace is something we need to understand too, in order to most effectively debate it. We typically view Grace as an acronym---- God's Riches at Christ's Expense. Also, God's unmerited favor. While not a common definition, I once heard that a better description would be.... God's Ill-merited favor. Ill-merited because we don't come to God as innocents. We were, by the most profound means--- sinners. Some of us were murderers, rapists, adulterers, fornicators, drunkards, drug abusers, sexually immoral, etc..... So, God's Favor, as defined in Romans 5--- while we were enemies, Christ died for us. So.... while my pastor would say that "ill-merited" is a bad definition, it seems that it's actually a more accurate word.... While I won't specifically oppose that, it does seem somewhat cheesy. According to Strong's Concordance, Grace is the greek word--- Charis. It means--- Favor. So..... let's start with Grace. We read in Hebrews 12, [Heb 12:15 NKJV] 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; Then, in Hebrews 13 [Heb 13:9 NKJV] 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For [it is] good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them. While I can see what you mean about 'unmerited', 'ill-merited' could be taken to imply that while we don't deserve grace, we aren't bad to the core —that we do have merit but not enough merit. But, according to Scripture, the fallen are not nearly dead. They are completely DEAD. As a young kid, even, I had a problem reading the Scriptural descriptions of the fallen, thinking to myself that most people I know who don't claim to be believers, and those who do claim to be, but it seems to be mere intellectual assent to God's existence, don't really seem much different from true believers. The problem, I came to realize is not that they are as bad as they could be, were God to remove his restraining hand, but that they are bad to the core —that sin owns them, and all they do they do in opposition to God, without even necessarily realizing it is so. |
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 19, 2022 6:49:34 GMT -8
Hmm.... Does Jude provide a list of some kind to define those things? Paul tells Titus in 2:15 to [Tit 2:15 NKJV] 15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. So, let's say---- GRACE is worth fighting for. [Tit 2:11-15 NKJV] 11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself [His] own special people, zealous for good works. 15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. Granted, it seems Grace is something we need to understand too, in order to most effectively debate it. We typically view Grace as an acronym---- God's Riches at Christ's Expense. Also, God's unmerited favor. While not a common definition, I once heard that a better description would be.... God's Ill-merited favor. Ill-merited because we don't come to God as innocents. We were, by the most profound means--- sinners. Some of us were murderers, rapists, adulterers, fornicators, drunkards, drug abusers, sexually immoral, etc..... So, God's Favor, as defined in Romans 5--- while we were enemies, Christ died for us. So.... while my pastor would say that "ill-merited" is a bad definition, it seems that it's actually a more accurate word.... While I won't specifically oppose that, it does seem somewhat cheesy. According to Strong's Concordance, Grace is the greek word--- Charis. It means--- Favor. So..... let's start with Grace. We read in Hebrews 12, [Heb 12:15 NKJV] 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; Then, in Hebrews 13 [Heb 13:9 NKJV] 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For [it is] good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them. While I can see what you mean about 'unmerited', 'ill-merited' could be taken to imply that while we don't deserve grace, we aren't bad to the core —that we do have merit but not enough merit. But, according to Scripture, the fallen are not nearly dead. They are completely DEAD. As a young kid, even, I had a problem reading the Scriptural descriptions of the fallen, thinking to myself that most people I know who don't claim to be believers, and those who do claim to be, but it seems to be mere intellectual assent to God's existence, don't really seem much different from true believers. The problem, I came to realize is not that they are as bad as they could be, were God to remove his restraining hand, but that they are bad to the core —that sin owns them, and all they do they do in opposition to God, without even necessarily realizing it is so. Good post I like it. "Bad to the bone" been there done that and have the scars to prove it. I thank God for His love and His mercy. Declaring the goodness of Jesus becomes easier when we reflect on everything, He has done for us. Thats our testimony Psalm 105:1 says, “Give thanks to the LORD, call on his name; make known among the nations what he has done.” Through Christ, God has done amazing things in our lives, and He wants us to let hurting people in the world know. The Great Commission / Matthew 28:16-20 16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 21, 2022 2:35:35 GMT -8
Grace goes against human nature,
1. God had to die for me? Nonsense
2. I am a horrific sinner? Nonsense I am good (i do not rape murder drink or smoke)
3. I can not do anything to help myself? Nonsense.
4. A person who gets drunk, gets in a car and while driving home, kills someone in an accident is still saved?? Nonsense.
They forget as james said, if we keep the whole law yet STUMBLE in one point, we are guilty of all. A person who bears false witness to protect themselves (a little white lie) out of nature without even thinking (stumbles) is just as guilty as the drunk who commited murder because he was not thinking right.
that goes against our very core. So Grace tears at the very fabric of our being, it can’t be as some people say it is, It must be different. There has to be some work involved…
Our flesh is what keeps us from receiving grace.. because it is foolishness to us.
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Post by charismaticlady on Jan 15, 2023 20:26:23 GMT -8
The problem with the definition for grace as"unmerited favor" is that people believe that is after being filled with the Holy Spirit also. NOT!!! The Holy Spirit provides us with divine POWER that frees us from sin, and NOT covers up our sin as we keep sinning. NO! We go from sinner to a child of God with His attributes and glory given to us. John 17. Read the chapter 1 John 3 and see whether or not you can keep sinning and still have an entrance to heaven.
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Post by makesends on Jan 15, 2023 20:59:49 GMT -8
Grace goes against human nature, 1. God had to die for me? Nonsense 2. I am a horrific sinner? Nonsense I am good (i do not rape murder drink or smoke) 3. I can not do anything to help myself? Nonsense. 4. A person who gets drunk, gets in a car and while driving home, kills someone in an accident is still saved?? Nonsense. They forget as james said, if we keep the whole law yet STUMBLE in one point, we are guilty of all. A person who bears false witness to protect themselves (a little white lie) out of nature without even thinking (stumbles) is just as guilty as the drunk who commited murder because he was not thinking right. that goes against our very core. So Grace tears at the very fabric of our being, it can’t be as some people say it is, It must be different. There has to be some work involved… Our flesh is what keeps us from receiving grace.. because it is foolishness to us. I think I am following you, but not sure. Are you saying "There has to be some work involved" as if quoting those who have a hard time accepting the truth of what God's Grace is? Or do you mean to say that indeed there has to be some work involved? "...that goes against our very core. So Grace tears at the very fabric of our being, it can’t be as some people say it is, It must be different. There has to be some work involved…" |
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Post by makesends on Jan 15, 2023 21:05:48 GMT -8
The problem with the definition for grace as"unmerited favor" is that people believe that is after being filled with the Holy Spirit also. NOT!!! The Holy Spirit provides us with divine POWER that frees us from sin, and NOT covers up our sin as we keep sinning. NO! We go from sinner to a child of God with His attributes and glory given to us. John 17. Read the chapter 1 John 3 and see whether or not you can keep sinning and still have an entrance to heaven. What does "keep on sinning" mean, as you say it here? That we eventually never sin anymore? I've run into a couple of believers that actually say they never sin anymore. I told one of them, "Let me speak to your wife for a few minutes". |
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Post by charismaticlady on Jan 16, 2023 10:35:25 GMT -8
The problem with the definition for grace as"unmerited favor" is that people believe that is after being filled with the Holy Spirit also. NOT!!! The Holy Spirit provides us with divine POWER that frees us from sin, and NOT covers up our sin as we keep sinning. NO! We go from sinner to a child of God with His attributes and glory given to us. John 17. Read the chapter 1 John 3 and see whether or not you can keep sinning and still have an entrance to heaven. What does "keep on sinning" mean, as you say it here? That we eventually never sin anymore? I've run into a couple of believers that actually say they never sin anymore. I told one of them, "Let me speak to your wife for a few minutes". A person that says they don't sin, but still does doesn't know Christ nor confessed their sin and become born again. But on the other hand, those who do confess their sin and Jesus cleanses them from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS receive the empowering Holy Spirit and a new clean nature in order to sin no more. That means that 1 John 1:9 is not for future sins, but to receive the Holy Spirit once and for all, as in Acts 2:38. Ask yourself how many times must you repent to BECOME a Christian? Once! The doctrine of demons that 1 John 1:9 is for repenting after each time you sin is not freedom from sin at all, which makes the words of Jesus, Himself, in John 8:32-36 a lie!
God is supernatural and makes us like Christ supernaturally. Therefore, Jesus said we must be born again of the Spirit? Why? To sin no more. Any other doctrine is of the devil. If you don’t believe me, here is 1 John chapter 3 below. Read it then ask yourself if you are a Christian OR NOT. Beware. You may have been taught doctrines of demons whose influence created the teaching: "we will always sin until we die and receive our new bodies." Is that what you believe? Then you may still belong to the spirit behind what you believe – a demon that wants you to keep sinning until you die and are lost forever, instead of crying out to Jesus to fill you with the power of His Spirit so you can be righteous like Him in this lifetime. Not imputed righteousness either, as the Old Testament saints like Abraham received who were obedient, but like Christ by nature.
1 John 3:
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
Sin and the Child of God
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
The Imperative of Love
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.
13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
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Post by makesends on Jan 16, 2023 20:36:02 GMT -8
What does "keep on sinning" mean, as you say it here? That we eventually never sin anymore? I've run into a couple of believers that actually say they never sin anymore. I told one of them, "Let me speak to your wife for a few minutes". A person that says they don't sin, but still does doesn't know Christ nor confessed their sin and become born again. But on the other hand, those who do confess their sin and Jesus cleanses them from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS receive the empowering Holy Spirit and a new clean nature in order to sin no more. That means that 1 John 1:9 is not for future sins, but to receive the Holy Spirit once and for all, as in Acts 2:38. Ask yourself how many times must you repent to BECOME a Christian? Once! The doctrine of demons that 1 John 1:9 is for repenting after each time you sin is not freedom from sin at all, which makes the words of Jesus, Himself, in John 8:32-36 a lie!
God is supernatural and makes us like Christ supernaturally. Therefore, Jesus said we must be born again of the Spirit? Why? To sin no more. Any other doctrine is of the devil. If you don’t believe me, here is 1 John chapter 3 below. Read it then ask yourself if you are a Christian OR NOT. Beware. You may have been taught doctrines of demons whose influence created the teaching: "we will always sin until we die and receive our new bodies." Is that what you believe? Then you may still belong to the spirit behind what you believe – a demon that wants you to keep sinning until you die and are lost forever, instead of crying out to Jesus to fill you with the power of His Spirit so you can be righteous like Him in this lifetime. Not imputed righteousness either, as the Old Testament saints like Abraham received who were obedient, but like Christ by nature.
1 John 3:
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
Sin and the Child of God
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
The Imperative of Love
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.
13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
Then let me ask you: Do you still sin sometimes? The old man is still in us, to be continuously put to death. The present tense in the Greek (verses 4 and 6) is a 'continuous action' verb, indicating continuing sin, perhaps a habit of sin, or a lifestyle of sin. This does not mean we do not sin sometimes. As John says in Chapter 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." |
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Post by charismaticlady on Jan 17, 2023 9:36:04 GMT -8
A person that says they don't sin, but still does doesn't know Christ nor confessed their sin and become born again. But on the other hand, those who do confess their sin and Jesus cleanses them from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS receive the empowering Holy Spirit and a new clean nature in order to sin no more. That means that 1 John 1:9 is not for future sins, but to receive the Holy Spirit once and for all, as in Acts 2:38. Ask yourself how many times must you repent to BECOME a Christian? Once! The doctrine of demons that 1 John 1:9 is for repenting after each time you sin is not freedom from sin at all, which makes the words of Jesus, Himself, in John 8:32-36 a lie!
God is supernatural and makes us like Christ supernaturally. Therefore, Jesus said we must be born again of the Spirit? Why? To sin no more. Any other doctrine is of the devil. If you don’t believe me, here is 1 John chapter 3 below. Read it then ask yourself if you are a Christian OR NOT. Beware. You may have been taught doctrines of demons whose influence created the teaching: "we will always sin until we die and receive our new bodies." Is that what you believe? Then you may still belong to the spirit behind what you believe – a demon that wants you to keep sinning until you die and are lost forever, instead of crying out to Jesus to fill you with the power of His Spirit so you can be righteous like Him in this lifetime. Not imputed righteousness either, as the Old Testament saints like Abraham received who were obedient, but like Christ by nature.
1 John 3:
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
Sin and the Child of God
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
The Imperative of Love
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.
13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
Then let me ask you: Do you still sin sometimes? The old man is still in us, to be continuously put to death. The present tense in the Greek (verses 4 and 6) is a 'continuous action' verb, indicating continuing sin, perhaps a habit of sin, or a lifestyle of sin. This does not mean we do not sin sometimes. As John says in Chapter 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."Since Adam sinned willfully, yes, all who came after him sin continuously. But don't you understand that is the REASON Jesus came? To stop the continuation of sin from the old man? Read Romans 6 and 1 John 3:5. The old man was crucified. He's not still 'living' on the cross. He is dead. But we still have free will like Adam had when he was first created. It is not the old man we have to "put to death" but our free will to chose, like Adam willfully did when he chose to eat the fruit. I choose righteousness. Why? Because when God first spoke to me on 2/9/77 I fell in love with Jesus. He is my Love and Security.
Romans 6:6-16, 22
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
We go through levels of obedience. When first born again I felt a heaviness leave my body physically (the old man). And Love pour in. The sins I was trapped in the day before were gone. I had no desire for them anymore. And the power of God kept me from desiring them again. Yes, I could have - I'm not a robot - but I just didn't want to break a moral law of the Ten Commandments. It never occurred to me. Temptations didn't stick. That is what is meant when Paul says, walk in the Spirit and you are not under the law. I was blessed with all of the gifts of the Spirit to fulfill the purpose God had for my life (except 2). Those gifts kept the knowledge of the presence of God with me ever before me. I was never alone again.
I mentioned "levels of obedience." That is what "faith to faith" means in Romans 1:16-17. It is the New Covenant which is quite different from the Old Covenant in how it is maintained. In the Old Covenant mankind, himself, must memorize 613 laws, and as James says, break one you break them all." They were 'always' sinners with no inner power. But Hebrews 12:2 says that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. In a baby Christian Jesus writes the first level laws he must keep on his conscience. As long as he lives up to the level of obedience he is in, God deems him sinless. Philippians 3:16. As he matures, the Holy Spirit releases new laws and more power to keep them on his conscience. The only thing a Christian must not do is quench the Spirit.
So as far as what God deemed sin for me, I can say I didn't willfully go against my conscience. Furthermore, I grew the fruit of the Spirit according to 2 Peter 1:5-7. I am in a much more Christ-like level now at 75, than I was at 30. But God always deemed me sinless.
I was sinless, but not "sinless perfection." We grow into perfection in the last levels of obedience and the maturity of all the fruit of the Spirit. Understand? I can't take credit, because all the heavy lifting was done by God. Jesus says, "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
Stay away from false doctrines of demons. They want to keep you willfully sinning, and mocking even the concept of sinlessness. Ask Jesus for the infilling of the Holy Spirit if you still feel the old man. He will crucify him and free you from sin. That includes the desire to sin. I was in church for 30 years sinning my head off. I wasn't saved from sin yet. The infilling of the Holy Spirit makes all the difference in the world.
Brother, read 2 Peter 1:2-11 over and over and let the Holy Spirit speak to you as to what you must do, and what doctrines are false.
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Post by eternallygrateful on Jan 17, 2023 12:32:41 GMT -8
Grace goes against human nature, 1. God had to die for me? Nonsense 2. I am a horrific sinner? Nonsense I am good (i do not rape murder drink or smoke) 3. I can not do anything to help myself? Nonsense. 4. A person who gets drunk, gets in a car and while driving home, kills someone in an accident is still saved?? Nonsense. They forget as james said, if we keep the whole law yet STUMBLE in one point, we are guilty of all. A person who bears false witness to protect themselves (a little white lie) out of nature without even thinking (stumbles) is just as guilty as the drunk who commited murder because he was not thinking right. that goes against our very core. So Grace tears at the very fabric of our being, it can’t be as some people say it is, It must be different. There has to be some work involved… Our flesh is what keeps us from receiving grace.. because it is foolishness to us. I think I am following you, but not sure. Are you saying "There has to be some work involved" as if quoting those who have a hard time accepting the truth of what God's Grace is? Or do you mean to say that indeed there has to be some work involved? "...that goes against our very core. So Grace tears at the very fabric of our being, it can’t be as some people say it is, It must be different. There has to be some work involved…" I am saying Grace goes against our very nature. Grace is something given for free. at someone elses expense (in this case Christ) Human nature says nonsense. it claims there has to be some work involved (I have to pay for my own sins, at least in part) |
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Post by makesends on Jan 17, 2023 19:29:09 GMT -8
I think I am following you, but not sure. Are you saying "There has to be some work involved" as if quoting those who have a hard time accepting the truth of what God's Grace is? Or do you mean to say that indeed there has to be some work involved? "...that goes against our very core. So Grace tears at the very fabric of our being, it can’t be as some people say it is, It must be different. There has to be some work involved…" I am saying Grace goes against our very nature. Grace is something given for free. at someone elses expense (in this case Christ) Human nature says nonsense. it claims there has to be some work involved (I have to pay for my own sins, at least in part) Agreed. And to cap it off, for those who insist on works to achieve worth, they will be measured by that standard. |
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Post by civic on Jan 27, 2023 8:25:14 GMT -8
I am saying Grace goes against our very nature. Grace is something given for free. at someone elses expense (in this case Christ) Human nature says nonsense. it claims there has to be some work involved (I have to pay for my own sins, at least in part) Agreed. And to cap it off, for those who insist on works to achieve worth, they will be measured by that standard. You are right brother ! |
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Post by Redeemed on Feb 26, 2023 16:00:59 GMT -8
I think I am following you, but not sure. Are you saying "There has to be some work involved" as if quoting those who have a hard time accepting the truth of what God's Grace is? Or do you mean to say that indeed there has to be some work involved? "...that goes against our very core. So Grace tears at the very fabric of our being, it can’t be as some people say it is, It must be different. There has to be some work involved…" I am saying Grace goes against our very nature. Grace is something given for free. at someone elses expense (in this case Christ) Human nature says nonsense. it claims there has to be some work involved (I have to pay for my own sins, at least in part) There are a lot of sins that we can be forgiven for but may have to pay the consequences. Like homosexuality and contacting AIDS. Murder and the death penalty. |
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