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Post by synergy on Aug 22, 2022 19:29:26 GMT -8
Hi Everyone!
It's great to be here, away from our Gnostic, Manichaean, and Iconoclastic acquaintances.
I want to get my head around God's foreknowledge and how it can and oftentimes does affect our salvation, calling, election, predestination, etc... I've copied here every foreknowledge verse I could find:
this One given to you by the before-determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken and by lawless hands, crucifying Him, you put Him to death; (Act 2:23)
For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers. (Rom 8:29)
God did not thrust out His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture said in Elijah, how he pleaded with God against Israel, saying, (Rom 11:2)
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. May grace and peace be multiplied to you. (1Pe 1:2)
indeed having been foreknown before the foundation of the world, but revealed in the last times for you, (1Pe 1:20)
I quoted the following from Saint John of Damascus on his very brief summary of his understanding of God's foreknowledge. I believe his words can serve as a building block towards a much more detailed understanding on the implications of God's foreknowledge:
We ought to understand that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things. For He knows beforehand those things that are in our power, but He does not predetermine them. For it is not His will that there should be wickedness nor does He choose to compel virtue. So that predetermination is the work of the divine command based on fore-knowledge. But on the other hand God predetermines those things which are not within our power in accordance with His prescience. For already God in His prescience has prejudged all things in accordance with His goodness and justice.
What writings do you suggest I consult to understand this very important Foreknowledge topic?
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Post by synergy on Aug 22, 2022 20:00:42 GMT -8
Hey syn, was wondering if you would show. Welcome! I will warn you—we are not all puppies and rainbows here, there is still some iron sharpening iron. 
I see two difficult arguments concerning foreknowledge.
One is, of course, the idea that if God knows a thing, it cannot be different, therefore eliminating libertarian will.
The second is they salvage some of these verses by using a different variant meaning of "previously know."
That is, instead of "know before it happens," the meaning becomes "having known sometime in the past."
Both of these challenges can be met but it gets complicated.
Hi Dizerner, Good to see you again. Iron sharpening iron is the perfect environment for me. You're right that libertarian will is very important and must be preserved or else the entire Bible makes no sense. In this forum I'm not so interested in understanding Calvinists as I am about learning what the Bible truly says. It's a big task and I'm sure there's many nuances to God's foreknowledge but it's going to be interesting to try to understand its implications on our lives. |
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Post by civic on Aug 22, 2022 20:12:18 GMT -8
Hi Everyone! It's great to be here, away from our Gnostic, Manichaean, and Iconoclastic acquaintances. I want to get my head around God's foreknowledge and how it can and oftentimes does affect our salvation, calling, election, predestination, etc... I've copied here every foreknowledge verse I could find: this One given to you by the before-determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken and by lawless hands, crucifying Him, you put Him to death; (Act 2:23) For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers. (Rom 8:29) God did not thrust out His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture said in Elijah, how he pleaded with God against Israel, saying, (Rom 11:2) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. May grace and peace be multiplied to you. (1Pe 1:2) indeed having been foreknown before the foundation of the world, but revealed in the last times for you, (1Pe 1:20) I quoted the following from Saint John of Damascus on his very brief summary of his understanding of God's foreknowledge. I believe his words can serve as a building block towards a much more detailed understanding on the implications of God's foreknowledge: We ought to understand that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things. For He knows beforehand those things that are in our power, but He does not predetermine them. For it is not His will that there should be wickedness nor does He choose to compel virtue. So that predetermination is the work of the divine command based on fore-knowledge. But on the other hand God predetermines those things which are not within our power in accordance with His prescience. For already God in His prescience has prejudged all things in accordance with His goodness and justice. What writings do you suggest I consult to understand this very important Foreknowledge topic? Welcome to the forum its about time you showed up  |
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Post by gomer on Aug 23, 2022 7:46:55 GMT -8
Hi Everyone! this One given to you by the before-determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken and by lawless hands, crucifying Him, you put Him to death; (Act 2:23) Hi, If foreknowledge demands predetermination then there is no justice, no righteousness in God/Holy Spirit predetermining the Jews to crucify the Christ then condemned the Jews for only doing what they were forced to do by God's predetermination. Then the Jews would have a legitimate, valid argument against God in what God forced them to do (Rom 9:19-20)...how can God find fault with the Jews when the Jews could only do what God forced them to do? Calvinist Professor Wayne Grudem wrote: (my emp) " In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331.) The idea that God ordains men to do evil deeds yet God then holds man accountable is a problem Calvinism created for itself for Scripture never teaches the idea of God acting unjustly, unrighteously towards man in such a way. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 23, 2022 10:21:35 GMT -8
Hi Everyone! It's great to be here, away from our Gnostic, Manichaean, and Iconoclastic acquaintances. I want to get my head around God's foreknowledge and how it can and oftentimes does affect our salvation, calling, election, predestination, etc... I've copied here every foreknowledge verse I could find: this One given to you by the before-determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken and by lawless hands, crucifying Him, you put Him to death; (Act 2:23) For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers. (Rom 8:29) God did not thrust out His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture said in Elijah, how he pleaded with God against Israel, saying, (Rom 11:2) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. May grace and peace be multiplied to you. (1Pe 1:2) indeed having been foreknown before the foundation of the world, but revealed in the last times for you, (1Pe 1:20) I quoted the following from Saint John of Damascus on his very brief summary of his understanding of God's foreknowledge. I believe his words can serve as a building block towards a much more detailed understanding on the implications of God's foreknowledge: We ought to understand that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things. For He knows beforehand those things that are in our power, but He does not predetermine them. For it is not His will that there should be wickedness nor does He choose to compel virtue. So that predetermination is the work of the divine command based on fore-knowledge. But on the other hand God predetermines those things which are not within our power in accordance with His prescience. For already God in His prescience has prejudged all things in accordance with His goodness and justice. What writings do you suggest I consult to understand this very important Foreknowledge topic? welcome to this forum I look at his foreknowledge in view of his omniscience, in the fact that God knows all things. Not only does he know what will happen. he knows what may happen. the reason God can prophesy perfectly thousand of years i advance that something will happen, Because he knows. Nothing surprises him. Just like in acts. Israel did not surprise him by crucifying him, He knew they would do it.. Its not like the fatalist would say. that God pretty much foreordained something in his sovereignty and the person must do it. It is that God knows what through free will mankind will do. Like pharaoh, God put him in place Because God knew how he would react to everything God did.. as apposed to someone else. who may not have done what God wanted him to do.. foreknowledge does not appose free will. It is based on free will.. God does not remove our will |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 23, 2022 10:23:24 GMT -8
One is, of course, the idea that if God knows a thing, it cannot be different, therefore eliminating libertarian will.
This is only true if God changed a persons will If God foreknew what a person would do freely of his own free will before he did it. (which I believe is true) then it does not eliminate free will.. |
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Post by synergy on Aug 24, 2022 9:58:04 GMT -8
Here is an analysis I did of 1 Pet 1:1-2:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect sojourners of the Dispersion of Pontus, of Galatia, of Cappadocia, of Asia, and of Bithynia,
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
The Diaspora mentioned in 1 Peter were chosen by God to serve in a God foreknown and pre-ordained capacity at a specific time and place. IOW, they were deliberately dispersed by God to that area to serve as believers and to spread the word.
In general, God foreknows what future situations are within our power and which ones are not. So He does not predetermine that which is within our power because He does not create wickedness nor does He compel virtue. He prunes us to bear more fruit, but He does not compel us.
He predetermines that which is not within our power. Wherever the phrase “that the scriptures may be fulfilled” is mentioned is an example of that. Jesus was purposefully careful not to alter the path to the Cross that God was directing mankind to.
One more thing: Only those who love God are known of God (Gal 4:8-9, 1 Cor 8:3).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2022 7:41:51 GMT -8
Hi Everyone! It's great to be here, away from our Gnostic, Manichaean, and Iconoclastic acquaintances.............. We ought to understand that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things....... I respectfully submit this is incorrect. If God knows something will happen before it happens then it can only happen and nothing other than what He knows will happen can happen. His knowledge, whether He willfully caused it to happen our learned it by knowing (learning) humans would make certain choices or perform certain actions carries with it a certain determinism. Once known it cannot be unknown. Once known nothing other than what is known can happen, otherwise either God did not actually know it, or God's knowledge is faulty. The determinism cannot be avoided. It can be divided between those things God causes and those things God knows about but anything and everything He knows carries the determinism of his knowing it will inescapably necessarily will occur. There's also another problem with this idea God didn't determine His own knowledge pertaining to what He knows beforehand. The notion that God looked down the timeline of human history and examined its event to learn what would happen before it happened, or that He looked at history from its endpoint, looking backwards to see all the things that happened as a consequence of His creating creation and then returning to His position outside of the creation He created, both mean He is not inherently omniscient. God does not know everything unless or until He looks. This diminishing of God's omniscience is not avoided by saying God's knowledge is based on the choice of the sinner; it is worsened. With the two timeline scenarios God's knowledge is predicated on the results of His action(s), but with the sinful human choice scenarios God's knowledge is not merely dependent upon His action, but those of the creature and those of sinful creatures (not good and sinless creatures. In other words, this doesn't simply subordinate God's foreknowledge to His own acts but also to those of the sinful creature to the point He does not know apart from the sinful choice or until the sinful choice is made. This is a compromise on His might, or omnipotence. Then there is the plain and simple fact time and space are created conditions of creation. They do not exist for God. All knowledge God possesses is therefore foreknowledge. When the Bible uses the word " foreknowledge," or speaks of what God knows beforehand, it does so within specific contexts because the global overarching context is His omniscience outside of time and space with God Himself as The Casual Agent, the Divine First Cause of all other causes. God's knowledge is not limited by creation. Time and space are constituent components of creation. Therefore, God's knowledge is not limited by time or space. So go back to my first point because determinism cannot be avoided. The kind of determinism may differ, but its existence is always present and omnipotent. The Molinists have tried to resolve this dilemma. They understand the Pelagian to Arminian end of synergism is untenable, so they tried to find a middle ground, or a place of "middle knowledge. Imo, they fail. Monergism is the correct perspective. The monergist position is: God ordained all things from eternity without being the author of sin or doing violence to the will of the creature or the contingency of secondary causes. Looking at a the whole of humanity that had made itself corrupt in its entirety God chose to have grace upon some and He based that extending of grace solely upon His will and His purpose and not the will or work of the sinful creature who deserved destruction. In this way He glorifies Himself as a just God by meting out the just recompense for sin and glorifies Himself as a gracious God by extending grace upon those He chooses. Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Isaiah 41:2-4Who has stirred one from the east whom He calls in righteousness to His feet? He turns nations over to him and subdues kings. He makes them like dust with his sword, like the wind-driven chaff with his bow. He pursues them, passing on in safety, by a way he had not been traversing with his feet. Who has performed and accomplished it, summoning the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.’John 3:16-21For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the verdict, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light and does not come to the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God. Philippians 2:12-13So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.Revelation 22:13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.Psalm 92:6-9How great are Your works, LORD! Your thoughts are very deep. A stupid person has no knowledge, nor does a foolish person understand this: When the wicked sprouted up like grass and all who did injustice flourished, it was only that they might be destroyed forevermore.Supposedly, the foreknowledge of God has not determined these things because God knows what is in our power. He does not predetermine what is in our power. Supposedly, the reason He does not predetermine what is in our power is because He does not desire there be any wickedness (a false cause argument). Romans 5:6 KJVFor when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.Romans 5:6 NASFor while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. Romans 5:6 NIVYou see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Whether by God's doing or the consequence of sin God's word says we were powerless. God knew of the sinner's powerlessness beforehand. Once known it could not be otherwise. God ordained all things from eternity without being the author of sin or doing violence to the will of the creature or the contingency of secondary causes. Looking at a the whole of humanity that had made itself corrupt in its entirety God chose to have grace upon some and He based that extending of grace solely upon His will and His purpose and not the will or work of the sinful creature who deserved destruction. In this way He glorifies Himself as a just God by meting out the just recompense for sin and glorifies Himself as a gracious God by extending grace upon those He chooses. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2022 8:21:20 GMT -8
Hi Everyone! It's great to be here, away from our Gnostic, Manichaean, and Iconoclastic acquaintances..... What writings do you suggest I consult to understand this very important Foreknowledge topic? I think you will find most books written on the divine foreknowledge are written by synergists. They are the ones doing the most sorting out of the matter because they recognize problems within their own position and feel the most need to resolve these issues. One place you might start for a comparative view is the book, " Divine Foreknowledge: Four Views," where Greg Boyd (Open theist), David Hunt (Arminian) and William Lane Craig (Molinist) and Paul Eddy (Calvinist) assert their respective positions. There's a similar book, " Four Views on Divine Providence" from the Counterpoints series by Zondervan in which Boyd, Craig, Paul Helseth (Reformed), and Ron Highfield (synergist) assert thier respective positions and critique each others. There is also a comparative tome on the related topic " Predestination and Free Will: Four Views of Divine Sovereignty and Human Freedom," in which the four positions of 1) God ordains all things, 2) God knows all things, 3) God limits His power, and 4) God limits His knowledge, are asserted and critiqued. I also recommend these books because they demonstrate a well-mannered and respectful set of exchanges. These contributors model for us how these debates can and should be handled. Although clearly disagreeing with one another they never resort to ad hominem. Sadly, there are some straw men present. Sometimes these straw men are pointed out but not always. Even more frustrating is the fact that the only way to know the various perspectives with any degree of thoroughness and integrity is to study the perspectives in depth by reading the authoritative sources within those positions. One last note: I will tell my monergist brothers and sister who do venture a reading of these books NOT to take Hunts contributions too seriously because he is a woefully bad exegete. Much, much worse than Leighton Flowers. NOTHING I have ever read from that man shows he handles scripture or reason well and every other synergist I have ever read does a markedly superior job in comparison. It confounds reason why he was chosen to represent the Arminian point of view. Try Roger Olson instead. For my synergist siblings there is monergism.com. There a wealth of articles and lectures on monergism will be found and since there are so many different sources available a better idea of the scope and diversity within monergism is possible, whereas a place like Ligonier Ministries will be predominantly the views of its founder R. C. Sproul. |
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Post by synergy on Sept 11, 2022 9:30:09 GMT -8
Hi Everyone! It's great to be here, away from our Gnostic, Manichaean, and Iconoclastic acquaintances.............. We ought to understand that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things....... I respectfully submit this is incorrect. If God knows something will happen before it happens then it can only happen and nothing other than what He knows will happen can happen. His knowledge, whether He willfully caused it to happen our learned it by knowing (learning) humans would make certain choices or perform certain actions carries with it a certain determinism. Once known it cannot be unknown. Once known nothing other than what is known can happen, otherwise either God did not actually know it, or God's knowledge is faulty. The determinism cannot be avoided. It can be divided between those things God causes and those things God knows about but anything and everything He knows carries the determinism of his knowing it will inescapably necessarily will occur. There's also another problem with this idea God didn't determine His own knowledge pertaining to what He knows beforehand. The notion that God looked down the timeline of human history and examined its event to learn what would happen before it happened, or that He looked at history from its endpoint, looking backwards to see all the things that happened as a consequence of His creating creation and then returning to His position outside of the creation He created, both mean He is not inherently omniscient. God does not know everything unless or until He looks. This diminishing of God's omniscience is not avoided by saying God's knowledge is based on the choice of the sinner; it is worsened. With the two timeline scenarios God's knowledge is predicated on the results of His action(s), but with the sinful human choice scenarios God's knowledge is not merely dependent upon His action, but those of the creature and those of sinful creatures (not good and sinless creatures. In other words, this doesn't simply subordinate God's foreknowledge to His own acts but also to those of the sinful creature to the point He does not know apart from the sinful choice or until the sinful choice is made. This is a compromise on His might, or omnipotence. Then there is the plain and simple fact time and space are created conditions of creation. They do not exist for God. All knowledge God possesses is therefore foreknowledge. When the Bible uses the word " foreknowledge," or speaks of what God knows beforehand, it does so within specific contexts because the global overarching context is His omniscience outside of time and space with God Himself as The Casual Agent, the Divine First Cause of all other causes. God's knowledge is not limited by creation. Time and space are constituent components of creation. Therefore, God's knowledge is not limited by time or space. So go back to my first point because determinism cannot be avoided. The kind of determinism may differ, but its existence is always present and omnipotent. The Molinists have tried to resolve this dilemma. They understand the Pelagian to Arminian end of synergism is untenable, so they tried to find a middle ground, or a place of "middle knowledge. Imo, they fail. Monergism is the correct perspective. The monergist position is: God ordained all things from eternity without being the author of sin or doing violence to the will of the creature or the contingency of secondary causes. Looking at a the whole of humanity that had made itself corrupt in its entirety God chose to have grace upon some and He based that extending of grace solely upon His will and His purpose and not the will or work of the sinful creature who deserved destruction. In this way He glorifies Himself as a just God by meting out the just recompense for sin and glorifies Himself as a gracious God by extending grace upon those He chooses. Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Isaiah 41:2-4Who has stirred one from the east whom He calls in righteousness to His feet? He turns nations over to him and subdues kings. He makes them like dust with his sword, like the wind-driven chaff with his bow. He pursues them, passing on in safety, by a way he had not been traversing with his feet. Who has performed and accomplished it, summoning the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.’John 3:16-21For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the verdict, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light and does not come to the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God. Philippians 2:12-13So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.Revelation 22:13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.Psalm 92:6-9How great are Your works, LORD! Your thoughts are very deep. A stupid person has no knowledge, nor does a foolish person understand this: When the wicked sprouted up like grass and all who did injustice flourished, it was only that they might be destroyed forevermore.Supposedly, the foreknowledge of God has not determined these things because God knows what is in our power. He does not predetermine what is in our power. Supposedly, the reason He does not predetermine what is in our power is because He does not desire there be any wickedness (a false cause argument). Romans 5:6 KJVFor when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.Romans 5:6 NASFor while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. Romans 5:6 NIVYou see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Whether by God's doing or the consequence of sin God's word says we were powerless. God knew of the sinner's powerlessness beforehand. Once known it could not be otherwise. God ordained all things from eternity without being the author of sin or doing violence to the will of the creature or the contingency of secondary causes. Looking at a the whole of humanity that had made itself corrupt in its entirety God chose to have grace upon some and He based that extending of grace solely upon His will and His purpose and not the will or work of the sinful creature who deserved destruction. In this way He glorifies Himself as a just God by meting out the just recompense for sin and glorifies Himself as a gracious God by extending grace upon those He chooses. All human actions are relative and only take on absolute (predestined) terms when we are positioned "in Christ" by God after we believe "in Christ".
Since all mankind has been gifted with a mind, conscience, and heart, then man does have the capacity, with the power and conviction of the Holy Spirit, to pray and believe that Jesus is Lord and Savior. Regeneration comes after belief.
For that which God has predetermined such the Cross, all our actions (good or bad) could not modify that eventuality. So there's no need for God to peer into the human timeline nor can the statement "once known" be applied to God.
God doesn't predetermine everything; otherwise, He would be the source of wickedness and our stewardship would be oxymoronic. You can say that God predetermined for the Devil to have greater or lesser powers to incite evil (as the source of evil) in accordance with the good that will ensue. That I can agree on but you cannot say that our belief "in Christ" is predetermined. That is our responsibility.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2022 12:51:40 GMT -8
I respectfully submit this is incorrect. If God knows something will happen before it happens then....................... All human actions are relative and only take on absolute (predestined) terms when we are positioned "in Christ" by God after we believe "in Christ"............. I disagree and wonder if that statement was thought through before it was posted because all human actions have their absolute reference to God. The morality of every single human act is and can be and will be measured by the absolute character of God. Every human purpose will be measured and inescapably fall subject to the absolute purpose(s) of God. Just as there is only one Creator, there is only one Ender, for nothing nor anyone can bring creation to an end one fraction of a nanosecond earlier, nor for any reason other than which God decides (or has already decided). The ting that is relative is the statement I just quoted. Out being in Christ is part of a simple dichotomy that God has also decided. All things bring glory to God. All humans will, too. Those who do so in Christ do so willingly with the exact same awe as the ones headed for destruction. Those in Christ do so knowing Christ as both Lord and Savior, whereas the outsiders will do so knowing Christ only as Lord. That is the fundamental difference between being " in" Christ as the term is used soteriologically. But since all things are made by Christ, through Christ, and for Christ how is also judge, not just Lord and Savior, all have their being in Christ. Some just do so with their end in a fiery lake where they are cast out because they are not known, just because they did not know. These things have already been decided. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2022 16:45:28 GMT -8
I respectfully submit this is incorrect. If God knows something will happen before it happens............................... ............Since all mankind has been gifted with a mind, conscience, and heart, then man does have the capacity, with the power and conviction of the Holy Spirit, to pray and believe that Jesus is Lord and Savior. Regeneration comes after belief. Have you got scripture for that underlined and italicized part? The Holy Spirit certainly convicts all, but He does not power those who deny His existence. Show me the scripture. When Paul wrote the congregants in Corinth, the already saved, redeemed, regenerate, and indwelt saints, he juxtaposed the "natural" man against the "spiritual" man. He wrote, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16
Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. The NIV translates verse 14 this way, " The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit." Some men do not have the Spirit. They have only the flesh. What spirit they do have is that of the world, not that of God. This natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit and he considers them foolish. Elsewhere Paul wrote about what happens to a person who denies God's existence, the evidence of His power. That man's thinking becomes futile. Not only is his heart darkened, but God has given that man over to his lusts (without asking him if that's what he wanted to happen  ). Elsewhere Paul writes about the mind of flesh*. The mind of flesh is hostile to God, and it does not and CANNOT please God. Only the mind of Spirit can and does please God and the unregenerate man does not have the Spirit. He does not have, as you put it, the capacity with the power of the Holy Spirit. He has no Spirit. Show me the verse stating the unregenerate, sinfully dead and enslaved human has the power of the Holy Spirit. * Our English translations use modifiers such as "the mind governed by the flesh," or "the mind set on the flesh..." or "carnally minded...," but the Greek is very blunt and does not contain those qualifiers. It simply states, "mind of the flesh," and "mind of the Spirit," (see Rom. 8:6), and as Paul stated in his first letter to the Corinthians the natural man lacks the Spirit and considers everything having to do with Him foolishness. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2022 16:53:13 GMT -8
I respectfully submit this is incorrect. If God knows something will happen before it happens then..................... ....God doesn't predetermine everything.... Who said He did? How many times have I quoted from WCF 3.1 to argue... GOD DID NOT DO VIOLENCE TO HUMAN WILL!
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Why is this so difficult to grasp? If not difficult to grasp, then why bring it up as if it something germane to my posts?
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Post by synergy on Sept 13, 2022 14:20:41 GMT -8
All human actions are relative and only take on absolute (predestined) terms when we are positioned "in Christ" by God after we believe "in Christ"............. I disagree and wonder if that statement was thought through before it was posted because all human actions have their absolute reference to God. The morality of every single human act is and can be and will be measured by the absolute character of God. Every human purpose will be measured and inescapably fall subject to the absolute purpose(s) of God. Just as there is only one Creator, there is only one Ender, for nothing nor anyone can bring creation to an end one fraction of a nanosecond earlier, nor for any reason other than which God decides (or has already decided). The ting that is relative is the statement I just quoted. Out being in Christ is part of a simple dichotomy that God has also decided. All things bring glory to God. All humans will, too. Those who do so in Christ do so willingly with the exact same awe as the ones headed for destruction. Those in Christ do so knowing Christ as both Lord and Savior, whereas the outsiders will do so knowing Christ only as Lord. That is the fundamental difference between being " in" Christ as the term is used soteriologically. But since all things are made by Christ, through Christ, and for Christ how is also judge, not just Lord and Savior, all have their being in Christ. Some just do so with their end in a fiery lake where they are cast out because they are not known, just because they did not know. These things have already been decided. The absolute power of God is not in dispute here. What is in dispute is what does the Bible mean when it says that one is “in Christ”. I’m in the process of researching that from an ontological perspective. For starters, we have the fact that we become predestined to adoption, inheritance, and conformity to Christ when we believe and are positioned “in Christ”. Adoption is a process of sanctification that starts with the earnest of the Spirit, just like salvation is a process, and looks towards the redemption of the body. This has eschatological ramifications. Our bodies are Temples of the Holy Spirit, infused with the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 6:19). We are predestined to a heavenly inheritance. That inheritance is our eschatological placement in the heavens through worship and the partaking of Divine Nature through Christ Who is the Bread of Life. The Book of Revelation was recorded in the context of the Celestial Liturgy. Jesus is called the Holy Liturgist (τῶν ἁγίων λειτουργὸς) in Heb 8:2. We are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. Conformity to Christ is to become a clearer icon image of Christ Who is the Perfect Icon Image of the Father. That is what is meant when we are referred to as a new creature. When Paul urges the faithful to show that they are attaining "to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (Eph 4:13), and to acquire "the mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:16), the heart of Christ (cf. Eph 3:17) and so on, St Paul does not do so for reasons of external piety and sentiment; he speaks ontologically.Furthermore, we are chosen (elected) “in Christ” from eternity past to accomplish preordained good works. |
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Post by synergy on Sept 13, 2022 14:23:23 GMT -8
............Since all mankind has been gifted with a mind, conscience, and heart, then man does have the capacity, with the power and conviction of the Holy Spirit, to pray and believe that Jesus is Lord and Savior. Regeneration comes after belief. Have you got scripture for that underlined and italicized part? The Holy Spirit certainly convicts all, but He does not power those who deny His existence. Show me the scripture.
The Bible reveals that man is reachable by God because of 2 factors:
1) Common man has been graced by God with a conscience, heart, and mind (source of thoughts). (Rom 2:14-16)
2) The Holy Spirit has a powerful and overarching ministry of convicting the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. (John 16:7-11)
So, even in unbelief, all man can be convicted by the Holy Spirit through his/her conscience, heart, and mind. Of course, God acts first and the unbeliever is free to respond. If the unbeliever willingly chooses to contritely repent and commits himself to Christ then God regenerates him and makes him a born-again man, and predestines him to adoption, inheritance, and conformity to Christ. Note that Man is never alone in the process. Even in man's repenting, God grants him repentance. Therefore, salvation is synergistic.
On the other hand, if the unbeliever chooses to sear his conscience (1 Tim 4:1-2), closes his heart (Matt 13:15), and resists the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51) then he remains an unbeliever.
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). Elsewhere Paul writes about the mind of flesh*. The mind of flesh is hostile to God, and it does not and CANNOT please God. Only the mind of Spirit can and does please God and the unregenerate man does not have the Spirit. He does not have, as you put it, the capacity with the power of the Holy Spirit. He has no Spirit. 
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