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Post by Obadiah on Aug 24, 2022 11:32:31 GMT -8
Did God impute our sins to Christ. I've read a couple articles that say yes and no and explain why. When I first became a Christian I was taught that Jesus did take on our sin and the reason Jesus asked God why he had forsaken him was because God being a holy God couldn't look upon sin. After the last year of studying all the topics I could find that were related to this such as penal substitution theory and several more I have come to a much clearer understanding of Psalm 22 and the Cross.
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" The question shocks us-so much so that it may seem wrong-headed from the start. Those of us who believe in the faithfulness and justice of God might be tempted to think that whoever asks such a question is fundamentally mistaken, and indeed that the question itself demonstrates a flawed understanding of God. "Don't you know? God doesn't forsake anyone! You must have forsaken God."
What's striking to me in Psalm 22 is all the physical and mental anguish the psalmist is going through the thing that was most important of all to him was the feeling of God being distant and abandoning him. But that last part of God being distant seems to change the further you read into the psalm. God seems to be closer to him. I think God was always there it just took him a while to realize it. That's the most important thing.. to be close to God. I like what Jesus said "I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” John 16:33 Jesus is telling us that no matter what we go through he will be with us. He will never leave us nor forsake us.
When I hear This question “My God my God why have you forsaken me” Coming from King David, I could reconcile myself to him asking this question, Considering his involvement was Bathsheba and the demise of her husband.
But this question, of course, does not come from someone who has been unfaithful and committed murder. It comes from the lips of none other than Jesus Christ. It comes from the only one who has been utterly faithful. It comes from the one of whom the Father said, "This is my beloved son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased" (Mt 3:17). It comes from the one who is the eternal Logos (Jn 1:1), the second person of the Trinity. So In this case these words hit me like a thunderbolt. My God, my God. Why have you forsaken me? Why? Why have you forsaken me? Why have you forsaken me? Why have you forsaken me?
A good friend of mine told me this in In answer to my statement: "When I first became a Christian I was taught that Jesus did take on our sin and the reason Jesus asked God why he had forsaken him was because God being a holy God couldn't look upon sin."
I was taught the same thing and took it as the "gospel " truth no questions asked and assumed it must be "biblical". But to my surprise as I began questioning that assertion and looking at Scripture, I began to see a few holes in that assumption that God cannot look upon sin. Now here is why below.
1-Who did God reason within heaven over Job? satan himself was in His presence making a deal with the Lord.
2- Jesus is God Incarnate and who did He spend time with during His weakest point in the wilderness? satan once again
3- Jesus deliberately goes after the sinner and the straying sheep as their Shepherd. He ate with sinners, He died for sinners.
So the notion God cannot look upon sin or allow sin in His presence is not only a fallacy, it's a LIE as we can see above and in many other places such as revelation where we see Satan once again in heaven and then being cast down.
What my Friend shared with me helped a lot and encouraged me to dig deeper into this topic.
I learned that many devout Christians understand this as nothing less than a scream of total desperation, and they do not hesitate to take this cry as anything less than an expression of a complete and total rupture in the life of the triune God. Which is something that's impossible and cannot happen.
But it is very common, especially among conservative evangelical Christians who strongly defend the necessity and sufficiency of Christ's atoning work, to hear statements such as the following:
The Father rejected the Son. As he exhausted his wrath upon the Son, the Father completely abandoned the Son. The Father hid his face from the Son. Jesus "became sin." Therefore, the Father's wrath was poured out on Jesus. The Father turned away from the Son. The physical pain Christ suffered in his passion was nothing in comparison to the spiritual and relational pain that Christ endured as he was separated from his Father. I do not believe Jesus can be separated from the father even for one millisecond.
Then there is God cursed Jesus with damnation. The eternal communion between the Father and the Son was ruptured on that fateful day. The Trinity was broken. Many preachers-especially in the sermons of those who believe that Jesus Christ was our substitute in the sense that he paid the penalty for our sins-make such solemn pronouncements. (PSA)
But such claims raise some interesting, and very important, questions. Is such a view of Christ's abandonment really necessary for a robust view of the gospel? Is it even consistent with the good news?
Jesus seems to be quoting from Psalm 22, which begins with apparent despair but ends in confidence and hope: could this be important? Must we say that the Father-Son relationship was ruptured? Indeed, can we even say that the Trinity was broken-or or are there troubling implications of such a claim?
I'm not even close to finishing my deep dive into this topic. The above post is a description of how I became interested in this topic. More will be revealed.
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fred
New Member
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Post by fred on Aug 24, 2022 12:42:42 GMT -8
Interesting points. Even while suffering on the cross, Christ knew He was able to commit His spirit into the hands of the Father (Luke 23:46).
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Post by civic on Aug 30, 2022 7:14:18 GMT -8
Obadiah the short answer to your question in the OP regarding the Trinity is a resounding NO ! At no point in time could there ever be any disruption even for a millisecond between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit where they were not in perfect harmony/fellowship otherwise you have a fractured/broken God. God cannot forsake God no more than The Holy Spirit could turn from the Father or the Son, or the Father to the Son or vice versa. If we begin with Who God is within His nature/character as Triune, Trinity, Tri-Unity there is perfect love, harmony, fellowship between them that is eternal and cannot be changed otherwise God is not Immutable, God is not Love, God is not Perfect etc..... Did Jesus as a human, a suffering man full of agony. pain, torture and suffering feel alone ? Yes but that does not means for a second He was forsaken. He was quoting from Psalm 22:1 a psalm every Jew was familiar with and had memorized. That very Psalm in great detail was being displayed through His suffering. In that same Psalm od David we read that His prayers were heard, God was with Him and that He was not alone. Jesus even tells us that in several places. The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken. Psalm 22:24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help. Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. John 16:32 "A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me." Hebrews 5:7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father hope this helps !!!
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genez
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Post by genez on Sept 20, 2022 12:05:34 GMT -8
Did God impute our sins to Christ. I've read a couple articles that say yes and no and explain why. When I first became a Christian I was taught that Jesus did take on our sin and the reason Jesus asked God why he had forsaken him was because God being a holy God couldn't look upon sin. After the last year of studying all the topics I could find that were related to this such as penal substitution theory and several more I have come to a much clearer understanding of Psalm 22 and the Cross. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" The question shocks us-so much so that it may seem wrong-headed from the start. Those of us who believe in the faithfulness and justice of God might be tempted to think that whoever asks such a question is fundamentally mistaken, and indeed that the question itself demonstrates a flawed understanding of God. "Don't you know? God doesn't forsake anyone! You must have forsaken God." What's striking to me in Psalm 22 is all the physical and mental anguish the psalmist is going through the thing that was most important of all to him was the feeling of God being distant and abandoning him. But that last part of God being distant seems to change the further you read into the psalm. God seems to be closer to him. I think God was always there it just took him a while to realize it. That's the most important thing.. to be close to God. I like what Jesus said "I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” John 16:33 Jesus is telling us that no matter what we go through he will be with us. He will never leave us nor forsake us. When I hear This question “My God my God why have you forsaken me” Coming from King David, I could reconcile myself to him asking this question, Considering his involvement was Bathsheba and the demise of her husband. But this question, of course, does not come from someone who has been unfaithful and committed murder. It comes from the lips of none other than Jesus Christ. It comes from the only one who has been utterly faithful. It comes from the one of whom the Father said, "This is my beloved son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased" (Mt 3:17). It comes from the one who is the eternal Logos (Jn 1:1), the second person of the Trinity. So In this case these words hit me like a thunderbolt. My God, my God. Why have you forsaken me? Why? Why have you forsaken me? Why have you forsaken me? Why have you forsaken me? A good friend of mine told me this in In answer to my statement: "When I first became a Christian I was taught that Jesus did take on our sin and the reason Jesus asked God why he had forsaken him was because God being a holy God couldn't look upon sin." I was taught the same thing and took it as the "gospel " truth no questions asked and assumed it must be "biblical". But to my surprise as I began questioning that assertion and looking at Scripture, I began to see a few holes in that assumption that God cannot look upon sin. Now here is why below. 1-Who did God reason within heaven over Job? satan himself was in His presence making a deal with the Lord. 2- Jesus is God Incarnate and who did He spend time with during His weakest point in the wilderness? satan once again 3- Jesus deliberately goes after the sinner and the straying sheep as their Shepherd. He ate with sinners, He died for sinners. So the notion God cannot look upon sin or allow sin in His presence is not only a fallacy, it's a LIE as we can see above and in many other places such as revelation where we see Satan once again in heaven and then being cast down. What my Friend shared with me helped a lot and encouraged me to dig deeper into this topic. I learned that many devout Christians understand this as nothing less than a scream of total desperation, and they do not hesitate to take this cry as anything less than an expression of a complete and total rupture in the life of the triune God. Which is something that's impossible and cannot happen. But it is very common, especially among conservative evangelical Christians who strongly defend the necessity and sufficiency of Christ's atoning work, to hear statements such as the following: The Father rejected the Son. As he exhausted his wrath upon the Son, the Father completely abandoned the Son. The Father hid his face from the Son. Jesus "became sin." Therefore, the Father's wrath was poured out on Jesus. The Father turned away from the Son. The physical pain Christ suffered in his passion was nothing in comparison to the spiritual and relational pain that Christ endured as he was separated from his Father. I do not believe Jesus can be separated from the father even for one millisecond. Then there is God cursed Jesus with damnation. The eternal communion between the Father and the Son was ruptured on that fateful day. The Trinity was broken. Many preachers-especially in the sermons of those who believe that Jesus Christ was our substitute in the sense that he paid the penalty for our sins-make such solemn pronouncements. (PSA) But such claims raise some interesting, and very important, questions. Is such a view of Christ's abandonment really necessary for a robust view of the gospel? Is it even consistent with the good news? Jesus seems to be quoting from Psalm 22, which begins with apparent despair but ends in confidence and hope: could this be important? Must we say that the Father-Son relationship was ruptured? Indeed, can we even say that the Trinity was broken-or or are there troubling implications of such a claim? I'm not even close to finishing my deep dive into this topic. The above post is a description of how I became interested in this topic. More will be revealed. Is there really a question there? Which one out of the fifty should we address?
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Post by Obadiah on Sept 20, 2022 12:42:09 GMT -8
genezThanks for reminding me, I need to get back into this Thread. Stay tuned more will be revealed!
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Post by Obadiah on Sept 20, 2022 13:42:56 GMT -8
Psalm 22:24 For He has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither has He hidden His face from him, but when he cried to Him, He heard.
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genez
Full Member
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Post by genez on Sept 20, 2022 15:42:44 GMT -8
As a Christian we can grieve or quench the Spirit. Yet, even so. The Holy Spirit remains in us.
Jesus was bearing the sins of the world on the Cross. The Father and Holy Spirit had to withdraw their fellowship during those hours of Jesus being soaked with our sins.
But, as for His own Deity? Like with the Holy Spirit when we sin?... His own Deity remained in Him being both grieved and quenched. Never left Him.
Why? For Jesus himself never sinned while bearing our sins.
When we sin the Holy Spirit remains in us, but cut off from enabling us. Likewise for the Deity of the sinless Jesus while he bore our sins.His Deity never left Him because Jesus himself never sinned.
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Post by Parker on Sept 20, 2022 16:22:19 GMT -8
As a Christian we can grieve or quench the Spirit. Yet, even so. The Holy Spirit remains in us. Jesus was bearing the sins of the world on the Cross. The Father and Holy Spirit had to withdraw their fellowship during those hours of Jesus being soaked with our sins. But, as for His own Deity? Like with the Holy Spirit when we sin?... His own Deity remained in Him being both grieved and quenched. Never left Him. Why? For Jesus himself never sinned while bearing our sins. When we sin the Holy Spirit remains in us, but cut off from enabling us. Likewise for the Deity of the sinless Jesus whiled he bore our sins.His Deity never left Him because Jesus himself never sinned. Excellent post. Makes one think.
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Post by civic on Sept 20, 2022 17:22:28 GMT -8
As a Christian we can grieve or quench the Spirit. Yet, even so. The Holy Spirit remains in us. Jesus was bearing the sins of the world on the Cross. The Father and Holy Spirit had to withdraw their fellowship during those hours of Jesus being soaked with our sins. But, as for His own Deity? Like with the Holy Spirit when we sin?... His own Deity remained in Him being both grieved and quenched. Never left Him. Why? For Jesus himself never sinned while bearing our sins. When we sin the Holy Spirit remains in us, but cut off from enabling us. Likewise for the Deity of the sinless Jesus whiled he bore our sins.His Deity never left Him because Jesus himself never sinned. Where does scripture say the fellowship between the Father , Son or Holy Spirit was ever withdrawn ?
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genez
Full Member
Posts: 130
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Post by genez on Sept 20, 2022 19:14:10 GMT -8
As a Christian we can grieve or quench the Spirit. Yet, even so. The Holy Spirit remains in us. Jesus was bearing the sins of the world on the Cross. The Father and Holy Spirit had to withdraw their fellowship during those hours of Jesus being soaked with our sins. But, as for His own Deity? Like with the Holy Spirit when we sin?... His own Deity remained in Him being both grieved and quenched. Never left Him. Why? For Jesus himself never sinned while bearing our sins. When we sin the Holy Spirit remains in us, but cut off from enabling us. Likewise for the Deity of the sinless Jesus whiled he bore our sins.His Deity never left Him because Jesus himself never sinned. Where does scripture say the fellowship between the Father , Son or Holy Spirit was ever withdrawn ? When he screamed out............... "My God (the Father) my God (the Holy Spirit) why have you forsaken me?"
The Father always instructed, and the Holy Spirit always supplied supernatural power of Deity for the humanity of Christ.
It stopped happening during when the sins of the world cut Jesus off from fellowship with God. The Father stopped and forsook. Same applied for the Holy Spirit.
"About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2022 7:10:16 GMT -8
Was the Trinity Broken at the Cross? Did God impute our sins to Christ. I've read a couple articles that say yes and no and explain why. When I first became a Christian I was taught that Jesus did take on our sin and the reason Jesus asked God why he had forsaken him was because God being a holy God couldn't look upon sin. After the last year of studying all the topics I could find that were related to this such as penal substitution theory and several more I have come to a much clearer understanding of Psalm 22 and the Cross....................... I'm not even close to finishing my deep dive into this topic. The above post is a description of how I became interested in this topic. More will be revealed. Couple of thoughts. First, the op does not answer the question asked in the title so let's get that out of the way. No, the Trinity (remember: this is the Godhead) was not broken at the cross. This shouldn't even be a question because there is nothing finite that can in any way "break" the Infinite, the creature the Creator, the subject the Sovereign. Next, as to the question of sin being placed upon Christ, this is inadequate language. According to 2 Corinthians 5:21, Jesus became sin! The one who knew no sin was made sin! Isaiah 53:12 states, "... he bore the sins of many..." If the Corinthians text is applied, then he bore those sins ontologically. In Romans 3 Paul tells us God presented Jesus as the atoning sacrifice through faith in Jesus' blood, in order to demonstrate God's righteousness, because in God's forbearance God had passed over the sins committed beforehand. I gotta go but Isaiah also tells us it pleased the Father to crush the Son. I believe that is a good place to start understanding Jesus' statement of forsakenness.
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eleos
New Member
God is Love.
Posts: 44
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Post by eleos on Sept 23, 2022 8:55:20 GMT -8
Did God impute our sins to Christ. I've read a couple articles that say yes and no and explain why. When I first became a Christian I was taught that Jesus did take on our sin and the reason Jesus asked God why he had forsaken him was because God being a holy God couldn't look upon sin. After the last year of studying all the topics I could find that were related to this such as penal substitution theory and several more I have come to a much clearer understanding of Psalm 22 and the Cross. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" The question shocks us-so much so that it may seem wrong-headed from the start. Those of us who believe in the faithfulness and justice of God might be tempted to think that whoever asks such a question is fundamentally mistaken, and indeed that the question itself demonstrates a flawed understanding of God. "Don't you know? God doesn't forsake anyone! You must have forsaken God." What's striking to me in Psalm 22 is all the physical and mental anguish the psalmist is going through the thing that was most important of all to him was the feeling of God being distant and abandoning him. But that last part of God being distant seems to change the further you read into the psalm. God seems to be closer to him. I think God was always there it just took him a while to realize it. That's the most important thing.. to be close to God. I like what Jesus said "I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” John 16:33 Jesus is telling us that no matter what we go through he will be with us. He will never leave us nor forsake us. When I hear This question “My God my God why have you forsaken me” Coming from King David, I could reconcile myself to him asking this question, Considering his involvement was Bathsheba and the demise of her husband. But this question, of course, does not come from someone who has been unfaithful and committed murder. It comes from the lips of none other than Jesus Christ. It comes from the only one who has been utterly faithful. It comes from the one of whom the Father said, "This is my beloved son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased" (Mt 3:17). It comes from the one who is the eternal Logos (Jn 1:1), the second person of the Trinity. So In this case these words hit me like a thunderbolt. My God, my God. Why have you forsaken me? Why? Why have you forsaken me? Why have you forsaken me? Why have you forsaken me? A good friend of mine told me this in In answer to my statement: "When I first became a Christian I was taught that Jesus did take on our sin and the reason Jesus asked God why he had forsaken him was because God being a holy God couldn't look upon sin." I was taught the same thing and took it as the "gospel " truth no questions asked and assumed it must be "biblical". But to my surprise as I began questioning that assertion and looking at Scripture, I began to see a few holes in that assumption that God cannot look upon sin. Now here is why below. 1-Who did God reason within heaven over Job? satan himself was in His presence making a deal with the Lord. 2- Jesus is God Incarnate and who did He spend time with during His weakest point in the wilderness? satan once again 3- Jesus deliberately goes after the sinner and the straying sheep as their Shepherd. He ate with sinners, He died for sinners. So the notion God cannot look upon sin or allow sin in His presence is not only a fallacy, it's a LIE as we can see above and in many other places such as revelation where we see Satan once again in heaven and then being cast down. What my Friend shared with me helped a lot and encouraged me to dig deeper into this topic. I learned that many devout Christians understand this as nothing less than a scream of total desperation, and they do not hesitate to take this cry as anything less than an expression of a complete and total rupture in the life of the triune God. Which is something that's impossible and cannot happen. But it is very common, especially among conservative evangelical Christians who strongly defend the necessity and sufficiency of Christ's atoning work, to hear statements such as the following: The Father rejected the Son. As he exhausted his wrath upon the Son, the Father completely abandoned the Son. The Father hid his face from the Son. Jesus "became sin." Therefore, the Father's wrath was poured out on Jesus. The Father turned away from the Son. The physical pain Christ suffered in his passion was nothing in comparison to the spiritual and relational pain that Christ endured as he was separated from his Father. I do not believe Jesus can be separated from the father even for one millisecond. Then there is God cursed Jesus with damnation. The eternal communion between the Father and the Son was ruptured on that fateful day. The Trinity was broken. Many preachers-especially in the sermons of those who believe that Jesus Christ was our substitute in the sense that he paid the penalty for our sins-make such solemn pronouncements. (PSA) But such claims raise some interesting, and very important, questions. Is such a view of Christ's abandonment really necessary for a robust view of the gospel? Is it even consistent with the good news? Jesus seems to be quoting from Psalm 22, which begins with apparent despair but ends in confidence and hope: could this be important? Must we say that the Father-Son relationship was ruptured? Indeed, can we even say that the Trinity was broken-or or are there troubling implications of such a claim? I'm not even close to finishing my deep dive into this topic. The above post is a description of how I became interested in this topic. More will be revealed. The trinity was not broken ... Jesus was/is fully God and fully man and that never changes. "I do not believe Jesus can be separated from the father even for one millisecond." Agree. Jesus never sinned, the sins of the world were laid upon Him. But that does not mean the Father forsook Him, rather what Jesus did is give His life as an offering to God for the sins of the world, like the High Priest would in reference to making atonement for sins. Christ experienced the "weight" of ALL the sins of the world (can you imagine?) He experienced in human form what it is like to be totally separated from the Father. Best explanation I've found is ... Jesus was both God and man united in one divine Person. He could not suffer and die with respect to His deity, but He could suffer the agony of separation from the Father and actually die physically with respect to His humanity
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Post by civic on Sept 24, 2022 9:53:42 GMT -8
Did God impute our sins to Christ. I've read a couple articles that say yes and no and explain why. When I first became a Christian I was taught that Jesus did take on our sin and the reason Jesus asked God why he had forsaken him was because God being a holy God couldn't look upon sin. After the last year of studying all the topics I could find that were related to this such as penal substitution theory and several more I have come to a much clearer understanding of Psalm 22 and the Cross. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" The question shocks us-so much so that it may seem wrong-headed from the start. Those of us who believe in the faithfulness and justice of God might be tempted to think that whoever asks such a question is fundamentally mistaken, and indeed that the question itself demonstrates a flawed understanding of God. "Don't you know? God doesn't forsake anyone! You must have forsaken God." What's striking to me in Psalm 22 is all the physical and mental anguish the psalmist is going through the thing that was most important of all to him was the feeling of God being distant and abandoning him. But that last part of God being distant seems to change the further you read into the psalm. God seems to be closer to him. I think God was always there it just took him a while to realize it. That's the most important thing.. to be close to God. I like what Jesus said "I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” John 16:33 Jesus is telling us that no matter what we go through he will be with us. He will never leave us nor forsake us. When I hear This question “My God my God why have you forsaken me” Coming from King David, I could reconcile myself to him asking this question, Considering his involvement was Bathsheba and the demise of her husband. But this question, of course, does not come from someone who has been unfaithful and committed murder. It comes from the lips of none other than Jesus Christ. It comes from the only one who has been utterly faithful. It comes from the one of whom the Father said, "This is my beloved son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased" (Mt 3:17). It comes from the one who is the eternal Logos (Jn 1:1), the second person of the Trinity. So In this case these words hit me like a thunderbolt. My God, my God. Why have you forsaken me? Why? Why have you forsaken me? Why have you forsaken me? Why have you forsaken me? A good friend of mine told me this in In answer to my statement: "When I first became a Christian I was taught that Jesus did take on our sin and the reason Jesus asked God why he had forsaken him was because God being a holy God couldn't look upon sin." I was taught the same thing and took it as the "gospel " truth no questions asked and assumed it must be "biblical". But to my surprise as I began questioning that assertion and looking at Scripture, I began to see a few holes in that assumption that God cannot look upon sin. Now here is why below. 1-Who did God reason within heaven over Job? satan himself was in His presence making a deal with the Lord. 2- Jesus is God Incarnate and who did He spend time with during His weakest point in the wilderness? satan once again 3- Jesus deliberately goes after the sinner and the straying sheep as their Shepherd. He ate with sinners, He died for sinners. So the notion God cannot look upon sin or allow sin in His presence is not only a fallacy, it's a LIE as we can see above and in many other places such as revelation where we see Satan once again in heaven and then being cast down. What my Friend shared with me helped a lot and encouraged me to dig deeper into this topic. I learned that many devout Christians understand this as nothing less than a scream of total desperation, and they do not hesitate to take this cry as anything less than an expression of a complete and total rupture in the life of the triune God. Which is something that's impossible and cannot happen. But it is very common, especially among conservative evangelical Christians who strongly defend the necessity and sufficiency of Christ's atoning work, to hear statements such as the following: The Father rejected the Son. As he exhausted his wrath upon the Son, the Father completely abandoned the Son. The Father hid his face from the Son. Jesus "became sin." Therefore, the Father's wrath was poured out on Jesus. The Father turned away from the Son. The physical pain Christ suffered in his passion was nothing in comparison to the spiritual and relational pain that Christ endured as he was separated from his Father. I do not believe Jesus can be separated from the father even for one millisecond. Then there is God cursed Jesus with damnation. The eternal communion between the Father and the Son was ruptured on that fateful day. The Trinity was broken. Many preachers-especially in the sermons of those who believe that Jesus Christ was our substitute in the sense that he paid the penalty for our sins-make such solemn pronouncements. (PSA) But such claims raise some interesting, and very important, questions. Is such a view of Christ's abandonment really necessary for a robust view of the gospel? Is it even consistent with the good news? Jesus seems to be quoting from Psalm 22, which begins with apparent despair but ends in confidence and hope: could this be important? Must we say that the Father-Son relationship was ruptured? Indeed, can we even say that the Trinity was broken-or or are there troubling implications of such a claim? I'm not even close to finishing my deep dive into this topic. The above post is a description of how I became interested in this topic. More will be revealed. The trinity was not broken ... Jesus was/is fully God and fully man and that never changes. "I do not believe Jesus can be separated from the father even for one millisecond." Agree. Jesus never sinned, the sins of the world were laid upon Him. But that does not mean the Father forsook Him, rather what Jesus did is give His life as an offering to God for the sins of the world, like the High Priest would in reference to making atonement for sins. Christ experienced the "weight" of ALL the sins of the world (can you imagine?) He experienced in human form what it is like to be totally separated from the Father. Best explanation I've found is ... Jesus was both God and man united in one divine Person. He could not suffer and die with respect to His deity, but He could suffer the agony of separation from the Father and actually die physically with respect to His humanity Thanks for sharing your thoughts !
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