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Post by Obadiah on Aug 26, 2022 9:54:17 GMT -8
I found out that the "Colossian Heresy" is a term that is used to describe the false teachings that occurred in the early church of Colossae, causing the apostle Paul to write his Epistle to the Colossians. With that in mind what I get from the book of Colossians is a picture of a complex heresy... a combination of many things: Eastern philosophy, Jewish legalism, Pagan astrology, mysticism, asceticism, And warped Christianity. Most scholars believe it was a form of Gnosticism. The word gnostic Comes from the Greek word meaning to "to know.” But I'm thinking in this case they only thought they knew, when in reality they were being deceived and attempting to deceive others. I can't find the exact nature of this heresy from the contents of Paul in his letter. But there are two broad views on the nature of the heresy. One is that it was a Jewish heresy, with a mystical and ascetic form of Judaism. The other was that it was a syncretic gnostic teaching. A few scholars however debate the existence of an actual heresy. So, my deep dive into this topic is to gain a better understanding of exactly what the nature of this heresy was. The reason being is I would like to know and to recognize if this heresy is repeating itself and if it's alive and well today. The Jewish heresy view, is thought to reflect a teaching with a focus on Jewish covenant distinctiveness and privilege. Verses such as the ones below suggest a Jewish legalism: Colossians 2:11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. Colossians 2:21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” Paul Goes on to remind the church in Colossians 3:11 “Here where there can't be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondservant, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all.” Then you have the gnosticizing syncretism of this heresy it is thought to reflect a teaching on a special wisdom and knowledge from cosmic powers. But Paul explains to them where it really comes from: Colossians 2:10 “and you have come to fulness of life in him, who is the head of all rule and authority” It may have been that the Colossians were integrating a mystery religion with Christ. Verses that point away from the kind of exclusivism that exists in Gnostic thinking support this view, such as: Colossians 1:23: if it is so that you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the Good News which you heard, which is being proclaimed in all creation under heaven; of which I, Paul, was made a servant.. Paul argued against these kinds of false teaching by showing that they diminished Jesus Christ. Using the language of the heresy (words such as sophia meaning wisdom, and gnosis meaning knowledge) he reminded the Colossians that Christ is all in all (Colossians 3:11). This link explains it better. What was the Colossian heresy? | GotQuestions.org
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Post by civic on Aug 26, 2022 10:06:43 GMT -8
I found out that the "Colossian Heresy" is a term that is used to describe the false teachings that occurred in the early church of Colossae, causing the apostle Paul to write his Epistle to the Colossians. With that in mind what I get from the book of Colossians is a picture of a complex heresy... a combination of many things: Eastern philosophy, Jewish legalism, Pagan astrology, mysticism, asceticism, And warped Christianity. Most scholars believe it was a form of Gnosticism. The word gnostic Comes from the Greek word meaning to "to know.” But I'm thinking in this case they only thought they knew, when in reality they were being deceived and attempting to deceive others. I can't find the exact nature of this heresy from the contents of Paul in his letter. But there are two broad views on the nature of the heresy. One is that it was a Jewish heresy, with a mystical and ascetic form of Judaism. The other was that it was a syncretic gnostic teaching. A few scholars however debate the existence of an actual heresy. So, my deep dive into this topic is to gain a better understanding of exactly what the nature of this heresy was. The reason being is I would like to know and to recognize if this heresy is repeating itself and if it's alive and well today. The Jewish heresy view, is thought to reflect a teaching with a focus on Jewish covenant distinctiveness and privilege. Verses such as the ones below suggest a Jewish legalism: Colossians 2:11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. Colossians 2:21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” Paul Goes on to remind the church in Colossians 3:11 “Here where there can't be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondservant, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all.” Then you have the gnosticizing syncretism of this heresy it is thought to reflect a teaching on a special wisdom and knowledge from cosmic powers. But Paul explains to them where it really comes from: Colossians 2:10 “and you have come to fulness of life in him, who is the head of all rule and authority” It may have been that the Colossians were integrating a mystery religion with Christ. Verses that point away from the kind of exclusivism that exists in Gnostic thinking support this view, such as: Colossians 1:23: if it is so that you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the Good News which you heard, which is being proclaimed in all creation under heaven; of which I, Paul, was made a servant.. Paul argued against these kinds of false teaching by showing that they diminished Jesus Christ. Using the language of the heresy (words such as sophia meaning wisdom, and gnosis meaning knowledge) he reminded the Colossians that Christ is all in all (Colossians 3:11). This link explains it better. What was the Colossian heresy? | GotQuestions.org Great topic for a discussion.
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 26, 2022 11:16:31 GMT -8
I read something very interesting about Gnostics and what they believe.
According to Dr. A. T. Robinson, Gnostics believed that God is good and hence could not touch matter. Therefore, they believed that the world was created by intermediate agencies called aeons (emanations From God) Who came in between God and matter. You can't make this stuff up. At any rate upon accepting Christianity these Gnostics at once had trouble with the person of Christ.
Where would He come in in their system? They solved the problem by making Him one of the subordinate aeons. I can definitely see why Paul would be upset with these guys.
So, if that sounds confusing to you join the club. I think scholars have been trying to explain Gnosticism for a real long time, and I think the very purpose of Gnosticism was to confuse believers. Paul wrote his letter to the Colossians to help True Believers there and elsewhere deal with the false Doctrine that was all around them. I believe a good understanding of this short letter to the Colossians is very helpful when our core Christian beliefs are under attack both in and out of the Church.
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Post by civic on Aug 26, 2022 11:29:12 GMT -8
Yes it’s one of the reasons Paul emphasized His preeminence over all creation , that He is the Creator and holds everything together and another important thing is that all the fullness of Deity dwells in Christ bodily during His earthly ministry and post Ascension as per 1:19 and 2:9. He was attacking Gnosticism and defending Christianity in his letter. It’s probably my favorite of Paul’s epistles because of the emphasis on His Deity , humanity and what it means to walk in Christ and what our relationships should be like with love as it’s emphasis . The first chapter I ever memorized in the Bible was Colossians 3 because it was my favorite chapter in scripture that summarized the Christian life .
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 26, 2022 15:47:59 GMT -8
Yes it’s one of the reasons Paul emphasized His preeminence over all creation , that He is the Creator and holds everything together and another important thing is that all the fullness of Deity dwells in Christ bodily during His earthly ministry and post Ascension as per 1:19 and 2:9. He was attacking Gnosticism and defending Christianity in his letter. It’s probably my favorite of Paul’s epistles because of the emphasis on His Deity , humanity and what it means to walk in Christ and what our relationships should be like with love as it’s emphasis . The first chapter I ever memorized in the Bible was Colossians 3 because it was my favorite chapter in scripture that summarized the Christian life . I haven't been to chapter 3 yet in this study but I'm working on it and I'm learning a lot of interesting stuff on my journey.
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 26, 2022 15:49:01 GMT -8
In Colossians, the Lord led the Apostle Paul to paint one of the most vivid portraits of Jesus Christ in all of scripture in order to help us Believers understand that Christ is above all and superior to any belief system promoted by any false Teachers.
Studying the Supremacy of Christ I found something that I've never heard of before called “The Christ Hymn” Found in Colossians 1:15–20 I found out it is the most frequently cited and studied part of Colossians 1:15–20. End it You will find one of the most beautiful and profound descriptions of the person and work of Jesus Christ in the New Testament. The scholarship on this short piece of text is immense and, and way over my head but God willing during my study I will get a good grasp on it. Since nearly everything about the passage is disputed I'll be in a good learning environment. So here it is the moment you've all been waiting for:
The Christ Hymn
15 He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all of creation 16 because in him were created all things in the heavens and upon the earth the visible and the invisible whether thrones or lords or rulers or authorities all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things and all things are sustained in him. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning the firstborn from the dead in order that in all things he might have preeminence 19 because in him [God] was pleased to have all his fullness dwell 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things by making peace through the blood of his cross through him whether upon the earth or in the heavens.
Now that's what I call a hymn. A real Him, hymn.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2022 6:17:27 GMT -8
I found out that the "Colossian Heresy" is a term that is used to describe the false teachings that occurred in the early church of Colossae, causing the apostle Paul to write his Epistle to the Colossians. With that in mind what I get from the book of Colossians is a picture of a complex heresy... a combination of many things: Eastern philosophy, Jewish legalism, Pagan astrology, mysticism, asceticism, And warped Christianity. Most scholars believe it was a form of Gnosticism................. This link explains it better. What was the Colossian heresy? | GotQuestions.org All other religions can be reduced to one of two categories, or a hybrid of the two. The two options are either some form of Gnosticism or some form of harvest religion. In general, heresies are about identity; either the identity of God, Jesus, or humanity (or any mixture of the three). All the pagan mythologies with their multiple gods were harvest religions. We see this with the gods of the sun, the moon, the rain, the seasons, etc. These gods are personal, but not infinite. These gods have eyes and ears and thought, emotion, and will but they are not wholly healthy in any of these faculties. Zeus is fighting Neptune who is fighting with Ra who is fighting with Thor who is fighting with Molech who is fighting with Dagda and no one god is all powerful. These are the gods of the west. In the east we find infinite gods that aren't personal. These are the forces and ways of the universe that have no specific will or purpose. The cover and govern the universe and everything in it. By aligning yourself with these forces you reach enlightenment. And, of course, there are hybrid versions of this. Only the God of the Bible is both infinite and personal. Christianity is singular in its doctrine of salvation by grace. All others are some form of works, either what you do or what you know. It's subtle because what you know is fundamentally different from who you know and needing to do nothing but rely on the will and work of God. That GotQuestions article is good (and I am someone normally guarded about Got Questions content because of their dispensational bias). However, it is my understanding his letter to the Galatians was Paul's primary response to Gnosticism. In the Colossae letter he speaks specifically against "human tradition," and more specifically those human traditions that have to do with "elemental spirits." No one really knows the specifics, but I don't think it is a stretch to think Paul is referencing very the commonly held views in the ancient world that had to do with earth, air, fire, and water. These were fairly fundamental in the Greek philosophies. Thales believed everything was a form of fire, and by extension change. Other philosophers emphasized different aspects as they sought to reduce the world to its core constituent element by which it might be understood. Each domain had its own creature (spirits of the water or the air, etc.). Ironically, GotQuestions has an article on the matter of elemental spirits HERE. Kinda curious this article is not used to inform the article on the Colossian Heresy. Keep in mind Colossae was largely Persian, not Roman. In Corinth and Ephesus we have the influence of the large temples and their pagan religions of Apollo, Artemis, Dionysus, and Aphrodite. Phrygia and the Colossian cities were hodgepodges of religion that included all of the main and lesser paganisms but also Hellenism, Judaism, and Gnosticism. In the first century there was even a cult that worshiped the archangel, Michael. I suspect this is what Paul is referencing because the question about whether Jesus is Michael has always existed. The angels are "lesser elements". The theologian has written quite a lot on this in his books like " The Unseen Realm." He's a good source for understanding the Jewish mythologies and zodiac and how it is evident in scripture. I, personally, think he over-reaches and runs into the problem of Judaizing Christianity but that has more to do with method rather than content. So I am inclined to think the letter has to do with the eclecticism in general and the Michael cult in particular. That is why Paul emphasizes the identity of Christ. Jesus is not a specially endowed human, nor is he a lesser god. He is God. Colossians 1:15-18He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. I also think it worth noting the believers in Colossae were commended for their faith. Phrygia was destroyed in 60 AD by an earthquake. Don't think it's a stretch to believe that was due to divine judgment and not just tectonic plate shifts .
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 27, 2022 15:23:23 GMT -8
Thanks for taking the time to share that with us very informative. I have Supernatural And the Unseen Realm by Michael Heiser. I'll have to dust them of and use them in my study. I'm just getting started with this study and after reading your information pact post I'm even more excited because it looks like I have a lot to learn which is what I like to do best. I did read about the earthquake And how it was never rebuilt.
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Aug 29, 2022 13:47:52 GMT -8
the problem here with the way this topic is depicted
in the OP and in 'modern' christianity
is that Rome set that course, defining what would be seen as heresy concepts...
not He came up with Rome's version...
yet... that's what modern Christianity follows.. ... accepting Esau's version.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2022 14:15:13 GMT -8
the problem here with the way this topic is depicted
in the OP and in 'modern' christianity
is that Rome set that course, defining what would be seen as heresy concepts...
not He came up with Rome's version...
yet... that's what modern Christianity follows.. ... accepting Esau's version.
There was no Rome in Esau's day. Who is " He"? ("... not He came up with Rome's version..."
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TedT
Junior Member
...gruntled.
Posts: 57
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Post by TedT on Sept 9, 2022 8:35:40 GMT -8
Colossians 1:23: if it is so that you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the Good News which you heard, which is being proclaimed in all creation under heaven; of which I, Paul, was made a servant.. What is the implication of this verse being misquoted in this way??? The verb proclaimed is in fact NOT is being proclaimed but is has been proclaimed as an act finished in the past though repeated in the future...? When was the proclamation finished in the past ? because on earth it is still not finished and is to be finished in the future? Instead of having a theology that deals with the proclamation of the gospel as finished already to every creature under heaven, we will just reword the verse to suit our 'being created on earth' perspectives, eh?
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genez
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Post by genez on Sept 10, 2022 17:52:53 GMT -8
All other religions can be reduced to one of two categories, or a hybrid of the two. The two options are either some form of Gnosticism or some form of harvest religion. In general, heresies are about identity; either the identity of God, Jesus, or humanity (or any mixture of the three). All the pagan mythologies with their multiple gods were harvest religions. We see this with the gods of the sun, the moon, the rain, the seasons, etc. These gods are personal, but not infinite. These gods have eyes and ears and thought, emotion, and will but they are not wholly healthy in any of these faculties. Zeus is fighting Neptune who is fighting with Ra who is fighting with Thor who is fighting with Molech who is fighting with Dagda and no one god is all powerful. These are the gods of the west. In the east we find infinite gods that aren't personal. These are the forces and ways of the universe that have no specific will or purpose. The cover and govern the universe and everything in it. By aligning yourself with these forces you reach enlightenment. And, of course, there are hybrid versions of this. Only the God of the Bible is both infinite and personal. Christianity is singular in its doctrine of salvation by grace. All others are some form of works, either what you do or what you know. It's subtle because what you know is fundamentally different from who you know and needing to do nothing but rely on the will and work of God. That GotQuestions article is good (and I am someone normally guarded about Got Questions content because of their dispensational bias). However, it is my understanding his letter to the Galatians was Paul's primary response to Gnosticism. In the Colossae letter he speaks specifically against "human tradition," and more specifically those human traditions that have to do with "elemental spirits." No one really knows the specifics, but I don't think it is a stretch to think Paul is referencing very the commonly held views in the ancient world that had to do with earth, air, fire, and water. These were fairly fundamental in the Greek philosophies. Thales believed everything was a form of fire, and by extension change. Other philosophers emphasized different aspects as they sought to reduce the world to its core constituent element by which it might be understood. Each domain had its own creature (spirits of the water or the air, etc.). Ironically, GotQuestions has an article on the matter of elemental spirits HERE. Kinda curious this article is not used to inform the article on the Colossian Heresy. Keep in mind Colossae was largely Persian, not Roman. In Corinth and Ephesus we have the influence of the large temples and their pagan religions of Apollo, Artemis, Dionysus, and Aphrodite. Phrygia and the Colossian cities were hodgepodges of religion that included all of the main and lesser paganisms but also Hellenism, Judaism, and Gnosticism. In the first century there was even a cult that worshiped the archangel, Michael. I suspect this is what Paul is referencing because the question about whether Jesus is Michael has always existed. The angels are "lesser elements". The theologian has written quite a lot on this in his books like " The Unseen Realm." He's a good source for understanding the Jewish mythologies and zodiac and how it is evident in scripture. I, personally, think he over-reaches and runs into the problem of Judaizing Christianity but that has more to do with method rather than content. So I am inclined to think the letter has to do with the eclecticism in general and the Michael cult in particular. That is why Paul emphasizes the identity of Christ. Jesus is not a specially endowed human, nor is he a lesser god. He is God. Colossians 1:15-18He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
I also think it worth noting the believers in Colossae were commended for their faith. Phrygia was destroyed in 60 AD by an earthquake. Don't think it's a stretch to believe that was due to divine judgment and not just tectonic plate shifts . He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.That inspired a thot of the day....
An interesting point to consider as to why all things created were created *through* Him. By Him. And, for Him.
The Son consists of two natures in union. Being both Deity and Soul. Humanity is His soul.
Why all had to be created through Him? Because all things created needed to be relatable to a soul. If His soul could not be made to know something to be created? It could not be created.
That means that throughout all time and eternity everything we will experience had been created through the soul of the Lord, making all things created relatable to our souls who will forever be living souls.
grace and peace.....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2022 8:17:21 GMT -8
All other religions can be reduced to one of two categories, or a hybrid of the two. The two options are either some form of Gnosticism or some form of harvest religion. In general, heresies are about identity; either the identity of God, Jesus, or humanity (or any mixture of the three). All the pagan mythologies with their multiple gods were harvest religions. We see this with the gods of the sun, the moon, the rain, the seasons, etc. These gods are personal, but not infinite. These gods have eyes and ears and thought, emotion, and will but they are not wholly healthy in any of these faculties. Zeus is fighting Neptune who is fighting with Ra who is fighting with Thor who is fighting with Molech who is fighting with Dagda and no one god is all powerful. These are the gods of the west. In the east we find infinite gods that aren't personal. These are the forces and ways of the universe that have no specific will or purpose. The cover and govern the universe and everything in it. By aligning yourself with these forces you reach enlightenment. And, of course, there are hybrid versions of this. Only the God of the Bible is both infinite and personal. Christianity is singular in its doctrine of salvation by grace. All others are some form of works, either what you do or what you know. It's subtle because what you know is fundamentally different from who you know and needing to do nothing but rely on the will and work of God. That GotQuestions article is good (and I am someone normally guarded about Got Questions content because of their dispensational bias). However, it is my understanding his letter to the Galatians was Paul's primary response to Gnosticism. In the Colossae letter he speaks specifically against "human tradition," and more specifically those human traditions that have to do with "elemental spirits." No one really knows the specifics, but I don't think it is a stretch to think Paul is referencing very the commonly held views in the ancient world that had to do with earth, air, fire, and water. These were fairly fundamental in the Greek philosophies. Thales believed everything was a form of fire, and by extension change. Other philosophers emphasized different aspects as they sought to reduce the world to its core constituent element by which it might be understood. Each domain had its own creature (spirits of the water or the air, etc.). Ironically, GotQuestions has an article on the matter of elemental spirits HERE. Kinda curious this article is not used to inform the article on the Colossian Heresy. Keep in mind Colossae was largely Persian, not Roman. In Corinth and Ephesus we have the influence of the large temples and their pagan religions of Apollo, Artemis, Dionysus, and Aphrodite. Phrygia and the Colossian cities were hodgepodges of religion that included all of the main and lesser paganisms but also Hellenism, Judaism, and Gnosticism. In the first century there was even a cult that worshiped the archangel, Michael. I suspect this is what Paul is referencing because the question about whether Jesus is Michael has always existed. The angels are "lesser elements". The theologian has written quite a lot on this in his books like " The Unseen Realm." He's a good source for understanding the Jewish mythologies and zodiac and how it is evident in scripture. I, personally, think he over-reaches and runs into the problem of Judaizing Christianity but that has more to do with method rather than content. So I am inclined to think the letter has to do with the eclecticism in general and the Michael cult in particular. That is why Paul emphasizes the identity of Christ. Jesus is not a specially endowed human, nor is he a lesser god. He is God. Colossians 1:15-18He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
I also think it worth noting the believers in Colossae were commended for their faith. Phrygia was destroyed in 60 AD by an earthquake. Don't think it's a stretch to believe that was due to divine judgment and not just tectonic plate shifts . He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
That inspired a [thought] of the day....
An interesting point to consider as to why all things created were created *through* Him. By Him. And, for Him.
The Son consists of two natures in union. Being both Deity and Soul. Humanity is His soul.
Why all had to be created through Him? Because all things created needed to be relatable to a soul. If His soul could not be made to know something to be created? It could not be created.
That means that throughout all time and eternity everything we will experience had been created through the soul of the Lord, making all things created relatable to our souls who will forever be living souls.
grace and peace.....In general, I think that is correct as far as it goes but there are a couple of places where I think some adjustments are warranted. First, is this implicit necessity in the "why". Creation did not HAVE to be created the way it was created. God, in His infinite will, power, and purpose, could have created creation any way He liked, with any set of principles He wanted, for any number of Purposes He so chose. So working backwards from the soteriology of eschatology of Christ is, imo, putting the cart before the horse. That is NOT, however, to say the purpose that does exist soteriologically and eschatologically in Christ is irrelevant. We necessarily understand the Bible is God's revelation of Himself to humanity. The report of the Bible is first and foremost the report of Christ crucified and resurrected. Although it is not normally my practice to draw upon extra-biblical sources to form the case for my position I will on this occasion appeal to something John Stott wrote because I have confidence in your knowledge of scripture (even though you and I do not always interpret it alike) and Stott did a very good and concise job in making the salient point. HERE's the link to the Google Book of Stott's " The Incomparable Christ" where in the introduction he writes about the centrality of Christ in scripture. Pages 15, 16, and 17 are a short read and they cover the matter well. From the opening statements of both the Old and New Testaments (particularly in John's gospel), through Peter's declaration Jesus was foreknown before the world was created, all the way up to the closing statements of scripture in which Jesus permeates the description to the new creation and its new nation and new city. Jesus it the "by," "through," and "for" of creation. And, scripturally speaking, it is always the person of Christ, and NOT his philosophy, teaching, or lifestyle that is germane. Christianity parts ways with ALL other religions on this point. It's not knowledge that saves. It is the person of Christ, the incarnate son of God who is God that saves. This is where the Colossians (and the Galatians) were having problems. That problem is completely understandable once we realize those congregations were largely Gentile (pagan) in constitution, and not Jewish. In regard to "all things created needed to be relatable to a soul" I think that's incorrect simply because it assumes the soul is a separable attribute of the human being. We don't have souls so much as we are souls. This goes back to one of the problems inherent in the tripartite view of humanity. It's a useful construct but it fails to consider several scriptural facts such as the inherently integrated nature of body, soul, and spirit and the fact there is no such thing as an autonomous soul anywhere in scripture. These problems are holdovers from a particular kind of reading the KJV and not one shared by the majority of Christendom either historically or doctrinally. We do better when we understand scripture's use of "soul" simply as "being." God created a human being when He breathed the life-giving breath into figure He had made from the dust of the earth. Dust (form), breath, and being. NOT body, spirit, and soul. We know this because the psalms tell us God breathed His life-giving breath into animals, too. Yes, there is often a correlation between the breath of God and the Spirit of God in scripture, but the Genesis creation account is not specifically stating God breathed His Spirit into the dust. That's not what the Hebrew states, that's not what the KJV states, and that's not what our other translations of Genesis 2:7 state. It's because of 1 Corinthians 15:45 that the misinterpretation arises. That is where the KJV uses "soul" instead of being, and it's from that translation the tripartite view arose in the modern Dispensational theologies. As this link HERE shows, the KJV didn't translate " psychen" consistently. Sometimes it translates that as " soul," and other times as " life." More importantly, when Paul used the word " psyche" he was NOT using it in the pagan sense of the word. At no time should the apostles' use of the Greek language be construed as evidence they were teaching Gentile, Greek/Hellenist, or pagan religion. I can't find a single place where scripture teaches something called " the soul of the Lord." I can't find a single place where scripture explicitly states God or Jesus has a soul, and I checked before writing those last two sentences. The closest I could find was the inference of Hebrews 4:12's " division of soul and spirit." Jesus was a living being who had been conceived by and indwelt with the Separate and Sacred Spirit (Holy) of God, but that looks different with Jesus than it does with all the rest of humanity because the Spirit of God IS the Spirit of Christ. God is one, and nothing about Jesus' humanity precludes that condition in him. Let's bring it back to the op. In the letter to the congregants in Colossae, a letter written in the last decade of his life, Paul was addressing concerns that arose as the gospel spread from Jerusalem to Asia and Europe, into the Greek culture and the Roman Empire and all the many paganisms replete with those lands. ANYONE reading the first chapter of Colossians can see the emphasis Paul places on the person of Christ. Just count the number of times "he" and "him" occur! This alone would have been counted as remarkable in the ancient world. Then, when we consider what is stated about the person of Christ we can imagine the readers' jaws hanging loose in a combination of awe and incredulity because one of the bluntest actions of scripture is its forcing us to ask ourselves, " Do I believe what I am reading?!?!?" Colossians 1:15-2215He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also the head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21And although you were previously alienated and hostile in attitude, engaged in evil deeds, 22yet He has now reconciled you in His body of flesh through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach....What? Ho can that be? That cannot be! Can it? According to Paul, not only can it be; it is. That couldn't be said of Zeus, of Apollos, of Artemis, of Plato, of Aristotle, of Alexander the Great, of Moses, and not even of Caesar. And for that last point Christians were covered in pitch and lit on fire as nightlights. That is what was happening by the time Paul wrote to the saints in Colossae. And if I misunderstood the post then you have my regrets and I hope anything I missed will be clarified.
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genez
Full Member
Posts: 130
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Post by genez on Sept 11, 2022 13:04:05 GMT -8
I made a SIMPLE statement in a desire to shed light on a detail that is not usually seen.
The response to that post? Made everything I said to be forgotten in a sea of details that had nothing to do with the insight.
So, I wish to repeat again what some still need to understand. Its a truth which would help them to better understand the importance of man in determining the design of all creation.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
An interesting point to consider as to why all things created were created through Him. By Him. And, for Him.
The Son consists of two natures in union. Being both Deity and Soul. Humanity is His soul.
Why all had to be created through Him?
Because all things created needed to be relatable to his soul. If His soul could not be made to comprehend something to be created? It would not be created.
That means that throughout all time and eternity, everything created, we will be able to experience by our soul. Having been created through the soul of the Lord, making all things created relatable to our souls.
All things to be created had to be invented and approved of by His Soul!
The importance of understanding this could lead to understanding how God initially created all men with the innate ability to choose for, or against, faith in God.
An interesting point to consider as to why all things created were created *through* Him. By Him. And, for Him.
The Son consists of two natures in union. Being both Deity and Soul. Humanity is His soul.
Why all had to be created through Him? Because all things created needed to be relatable to his soul. If His soul could not be made to know something to be created? It would not be created.
That means that throughout all time and eternity everything we will experience had been created through the soul of the Lord, making all things created relatable to our souls.
All things created were invented and approved of by His Soul!
The importance of understanding this could lead to understanding how God created all men with the freedom to choose for, or against, faith in God. That aspect of ability was revealed in the Incarnation. For while in that state of making Himself to be as a man? The Son was revealing that He has the capacity (when He wishes) to deny himself to his powers of omniscience.... ! In that manner, He was able to create every soul of mankind, in love... and with only the best intention for perfect relationship with God. Since He denied himself His right to omniscience? Every soul He created was created with the perfect freedom to choose on his own. God did not create certain men to reject Him!
After all things were created through His Soul? Once returning to all His full powers of Deity? Then the problems were seen in His omniscience and with the entire Trinity the entire plan for redemption was planned ...
grace and peace!
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Post by rickstudies on Sept 11, 2022 19:09:53 GMT -8
I never heard of "The Colossians Heresy" until now so I dunno what they say about it in Bible College Class. This little thread made for an interesting read tonight though. Myself, I`m partial to Colossians and I often use the powerful words of this Epistle in Biblical discussions. I`ve seen the issue in the epistle that is being dealt with as the dietary laws etc. and the oral tradition that became the Talmud. That silliness is still being promoted today by Members of the Hebrew Roots cult who falsely profess to be Messianic believers.
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