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Post by papalandshark on Aug 27, 2022 20:47:04 GMT -8
A good layman's article on the subject. Link below. Premillennialism is the view that Christ’s second coming will occur prior to His millennial kingdom, and that the millennial kingdom is a literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth. In order to understand and interpret the passages in Scripture that deal with end-times events, there are two things that must be clearly understood: a proper method of interpreting Scripture and the distinction between Israel (the Jews) and the church (the body of all believers in Jesus Christ). First, a proper method of interpreting Scripture requires that Scripture be interpreted in a way that is consistent with its context. This means that a passage must be interpreted in a way that is consistent with the audience to which it is written, those it is written about, whom it is written by, and so on. It is critical to know the author, intended audience, and historical background of each passage one interprets. The historical and cultural setting will often reveal the correct meaning of a passage. It is also important to remember that Scripture interprets Scripture. That is, often a passage will cover a topic or subject that is also addressed elsewhere in the Bible. It is important to interpret all of these passages consistently with one another. Finally, and most importantly, passages must always be taken in their normal, regular, plain, literal meaning unless the context of the passage indicates that it is figurative in nature. A literal interpretation does not eliminate the possibility of figures of speech being used. Rather, it encourages the interpreter to not read figurative language into the meaning of a passage unless it is appropriate for that context. It is crucial to never seek a “deeper, more spiritual” meaning than is presented. Spiritualizing a passage is dangerous because it moves the basis for accurate interpretation from Scripture to the mind of the reader. Then, there can be no objective standard of interpretation; instead, Scripture becomes subject to each person’s own impression of what it means. Second Peter 1:20-21 reminds us that “no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” Applying these principles of biblical interpretation, it must be seen that Israel (Abraham’s physical descendants) and the church (all New Testament believers) are two distinct groups. It is crucial to recognize that Israel and the church are distinct because, if this is misunderstood, Scripture will be misinterpreted. Especially prone to misinterpretation are passages that deal with promises made to Israel (both fulfilled and unfulfilled). Such promises should not be applied to the church. Remember, the context of the passage will determine to whom it is addressed and will point to the most correct interpretation. With those concepts in mind, we can look at various passages of Scripture that produce the premillennial view. Genesis 12:1-3: “The LORD had said to Abram, ‘Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.’” God promises Abraham three things here: Abraham would have many descendants, this nation would own and occupy a land, and a universal blessing will come to all mankind out of Abraham’s line (the Jews). In Genesis 15:9-17, God ratifies His covenant with Abraham. By the way this is done, God places sole responsibility for the covenant upon Himself. That is, there was nothing Abraham could do or fail to do that would void the covenant God made. Also in this passage, the boundaries are set for the land that the Jews will eventually occupy. For a detailed list of the boundaries, see Deuteronomy 34. Other passages that deal with the promise of land are Deuteronomy 30:3-5 and Ezekiel 20:42-44. In 2 Samuel 7:10–17, we see the promise made by God to King David. God makes some special promises concerning one of David's sons: God will establish his kingdom (verse 12), be his father (verse 14), and never remove His love from him (verse 15). In addition, God says this son “will build a house for my Name” (verse 13). These promises were fulfilled in Solomon. However, part of God’s promise was that David’s son’s throne would be established “forever” (verse 13). This part of the prophecy could not refer to Solomon, because Solomon died and did not retain the throne forever. Thus, we have a prophecy with a dual fulfillment: it was fulfilled partially in Solomon and fully in Jesus Christ, also called the Son of David (Matthew 1:1). Solomon did, in some ways, prefigure Christ in his kingship, wisdom, and peaceful reign. Of course, Jesus is greater than Solomon in every respect (Matthew 12:42). So, 2 Samuel 7 makes reference to Solomon’s temporary rule and to Christ’s rule during the millennium and forever. King Solomon could not be the ultimate fulfillment of the promise made to David; it is a covenant that has yet to be fully realized. With all this in mind, examine what is recorded in Revelation 20:1–7. The thousand years repeatedly mentioned in this passage corresponds to Christ’s literal 1000-year reign on the earth. Premillennialism sees this passage as describing the future fulfillment of the promise that Christ would be seated on David’s throne. God made unconditional covenants with both Abraham and David. Neither of these covenants has been fully or permanently fulfilled. A literal, physical rule of Christ is the only way the covenants can be fulfilled as God promised they would. Applying a literal method of interpretation to Scripture results in the pieces of the puzzle coming together. All of the Old Testament prophecies of Jesus’ first coming were fulfilled literally. Therefore, we should expect the prophecies regarding His second coming to be fulfilled literally as well. Premillennialism is the only system that agrees with a literal interpretation of God’s covenants and end-times prophecy. www.gotquestions.org/premillennialism.html |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2022 14:58:43 GMT -8
A good layman's article on the subject. Link below. Premillennialism is the view that Christ’s second coming will occur prior to His millennial kingdom, and that the millennial kingdom is a literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth. In order to understand and interpret the passages in Scripture that deal with end-times events, there are two things that must be clearly understood: a proper method of interpreting Scripture and the distinction between Israel (the Jews) and the church (the body of all believers in Jesus Christ). First, a proper method of interpreting Scripture requires that Scripture be interpreted in a way that is consistent with its context. This means that a passage must be interpreted in a way that is consistent with the audience to which it is written, those it is written about, whom it is written by, and so on. It is critical to know the author, intended audience, and historical background of each passage one interprets. The historical and cultural setting will often reveal the correct meaning of a passage. It is also important to remember that Scripture interprets Scripture. That is, often a passage will cover a topic or subject that is also addressed elsewhere in the Bible. It is important to interpret all of these passages consistently with one another. Finally, and most importantly, passages must always be taken in their normal, regular, plain, literal meaning unless the context of the passage indicates that it is figurative in nature. A literal interpretation does not eliminate the possibility of figures of speech being used. Rather, it encourages the interpreter to not read figurative language into the meaning of a passage unless it is appropriate for that context. It is crucial to never seek a “deeper, more spiritual” meaning than is presented. Spiritualizing a passage is dangerous because it moves the basis for accurate interpretation from Scripture to the mind of the reader. Then, there can be no objective standard of interpretation; instead, Scripture becomes subject to each person’s own impression of what it means. Second Peter 1:20-21 reminds us that “no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” Applying these principles of biblical interpretation, it must be seen that Israel (Abraham’s physical descendants) and the church (all New Testament believers) are two distinct groups. It is crucial to recognize that Israel and the church are distinct because, if this is misunderstood, Scripture will be misinterpreted. Especially prone to misinterpretation are passages that deal with promises made to Israel (both fulfilled and unfulfilled). Such promises should not be applied to the church. Remember, the context of the passage will determine to whom it is addressed and will point to the most correct interpretation. With those concepts in mind, we can look at various passages of Scripture that produce the premillennial view. Genesis 12:1-3: “The LORD had said to Abram, ‘Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.’” God promises Abraham three things here: Abraham would have many descendants, this nation would own and occupy a land, and a universal blessing will come to all mankind out of Abraham’s line (the Jews). In Genesis 15:9-17, God ratifies His covenant with Abraham. By the way this is done, God places sole responsibility for the covenant upon Himself. That is, there was nothing Abraham could do or fail to do that would void the covenant God made. Also in this passage, the boundaries are set for the land that the Jews will eventually occupy. For a detailed list of the boundaries, see Deuteronomy 34. Other passages that deal with the promise of land are Deuteronomy 30:3-5 and Ezekiel 20:42-44. In 2 Samuel 7:10–17, we see the promise made by God to King David. God makes some special promises concerning one of David's sons: God will establish his kingdom (verse 12), be his father (verse 14), and never remove His love from him (verse 15). In addition, God says this son “will build a house for my Name” (verse 13). These promises were fulfilled in Solomon. However, part of God’s promise was that David’s son’s throne would be established “forever” (verse 13). This part of the prophecy could not refer to Solomon, because Solomon died and did not retain the throne forever. Thus, we have a prophecy with a dual fulfillment: it was fulfilled partially in Solomon and fully in Jesus Christ, also called the Son of David (Matthew 1:1). Solomon did, in some ways, prefigure Christ in his kingship, wisdom, and peaceful reign. Of course, Jesus is greater than Solomon in every respect (Matthew 12:42). So, 2 Samuel 7 makes reference to Solomon’s temporary rule and to Christ’s rule during the millennium and forever. King Solomon could not be the ultimate fulfillment of the promise made to David; it is a covenant that has yet to be fully realized. With all this in mind, examine what is recorded in Revelation 20:1–7. The thousand years repeatedly mentioned in this passage corresponds to Christ’s literal 1000-year reign on the earth. Premillennialism sees this passage as describing the future fulfillment of the promise that Christ would be seated on David’s throne. God made unconditional covenants with both Abraham and David. Neither of these covenants has been fully or permanently fulfilled. A literal, physical rule of Christ is the only way the covenants can be fulfilled as God promised they would. Applying a literal method of interpretation to Scripture results in the pieces of the puzzle coming together. All of the Old Testament prophecies of Jesus’ first coming were fulfilled literally. Therefore, we should expect the prophecies regarding His second coming to be fulfilled literally as well. Premillennialism is the only system that agrees with a literal interpretation of God’s covenants and end-times prophecy. www.gotquestions.org/premillennialism.htmlNotice that only the first paragraph is specifically about premillennialism. The rest of that article is a defense of the hermeneutic, not an exposition of the eschatology. I point this out because it is very common for Dispensational Premillennialist sources, like Got Questions, to practice this justification instead of exposition. It's also very common for Dispensational Premillennialists to act like DPism is the same as dispensationalism throughout Church history (it is not), and to act like the Dispensationalist premillennialism is like its Historic alternative (it is not). The TRUTH is there are two main forms of premillennialism: 1) Historic Premillennialism and 2) Dispensational Premillennialism. Therefore. separate ops need to be posted for each point of view. The former is the oldest eschatological view in Christianity. The latter is the newest (less than 200 years old). |
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Post by Redeemed on Jun 1, 2023 11:16:43 GMT -8
Premillennialists believe that when Jesus comes, he will raise the dead in two stages. First, he will raise some to participate with him in the millennial kingdom. After the Millennium (the thousand-year period) is over, he will raise the rest of the dead and institute the Final Judgment. Then will come the final and eternal destinies of the saved and the lost. These future expectations are common to all premillennialists.
As a a Premillennialist you must necessarily believe that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ’s second coming. The reason for this is that all Premillennialists must account for the rebellious and unbelieving nations in Revelation 20:7-10 who launch an assault against Christ and his people at the end of the millennial age. Where did these people come from? They must be the unbelieving progeny born to those believers who entered the millennial age in physical, unglorified bodies. Not only they, but also the believing progeny born to those believers will be subject to physical death (notwithstanding the alleged prolonged life spans experienced by those who live during the millennial reign of Christ).
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Post by papalandshark on Jul 5, 2023 20:53:17 GMT -8
Notice that only the first paragraph is specifically about premillennialism. The rest of that article is a defense of the hermeneutic, not an exposition of the eschatology. Not quite. The first 3 paragraphs are a definition of Premillennialism, the common hermeneutic used to interpret all scripture, and the literal / face value hermeneutic in particular. Also note that I did say that this is a good layman's article. It's also very common for those who don't like Dispensational Premillennialism, or Premillennialism in general, too poison the well. Well no...the truth is that this article doesn't claim to be everything on the subject nor did I claim it to be. Therefore nothing "needs" be done about it. The article stands by itself just fine. Also the "oldest" eschatological view would be Chiliasm ( Millennialism ). In the larger scheme of history Dispensationalism is *barely* younger than Covenantalism so It seems a little silly for the Covenantalists to harp on this point. All you are doing is giving a stronger case too the Papists by doing so. Now...since the responder here seems to have been 86'd perhaps these three similar streams will be fleshed out later. |
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Post by civic on Jul 7, 2023 5:19:37 GMT -8
A good layman's article on the subject. Link below. Premillennialism is the view that Christ’s second coming will occur prior to His millennial kingdom, and that the millennial kingdom is a literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth. In order to understand and interpret the passages in Scripture that deal with end-times events, there are two things that must be clearly understood: a proper method of interpreting Scripture and the distinction between Israel (the Jews) and the church (the body of all believers in Jesus Christ). First, a proper method of interpreting Scripture requires that Scripture be interpreted in a way that is consistent with its context. This means that a passage must be interpreted in a way that is consistent with the audience to which it is written, those it is written about, whom it is written by, and so on. It is critical to know the author, intended audience, and historical background of each passage one interprets. The historical and cultural setting will often reveal the correct meaning of a passage. It is also important to remember that Scripture interprets Scripture. That is, often a passage will cover a topic or subject that is also addressed elsewhere in the Bible. It is important to interpret all of these passages consistently with one another. Finally, and most importantly, passages must always be taken in their normal, regular, plain, literal meaning unless the context of the passage indicates that it is figurative in nature. A literal interpretation does not eliminate the possibility of figures of speech being used. Rather, it encourages the interpreter to not read figurative language into the meaning of a passage unless it is appropriate for that context. It is crucial to never seek a “deeper, more spiritual” meaning than is presented. Spiritualizing a passage is dangerous because it moves the basis for accurate interpretation from Scripture to the mind of the reader. Then, there can be no objective standard of interpretation; instead, Scripture becomes subject to each person’s own impression of what it means. Second Peter 1:20-21 reminds us that “no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” Applying these principles of biblical interpretation, it must be seen that Israel (Abraham’s physical descendants) and the church (all New Testament believers) are two distinct groups. It is crucial to recognize that Israel and the church are distinct because, if this is misunderstood, Scripture will be misinterpreted. Especially prone to misinterpretation are passages that deal with promises made to Israel (both fulfilled and unfulfilled). Such promises should not be applied to the church. Remember, the context of the passage will determine to whom it is addressed and will point to the most correct interpretation. With those concepts in mind, we can look at various passages of Scripture that produce the premillennial view. Genesis 12:1-3: “The LORD had said to Abram, ‘Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.’” God promises Abraham three things here: Abraham would have many descendants, this nation would own and occupy a land, and a universal blessing will come to all mankind out of Abraham’s line (the Jews). In Genesis 15:9-17, God ratifies His covenant with Abraham. By the way this is done, God places sole responsibility for the covenant upon Himself. That is, there was nothing Abraham could do or fail to do that would void the covenant God made. Also in this passage, the boundaries are set for the land that the Jews will eventually occupy. For a detailed list of the boundaries, see Deuteronomy 34. Other passages that deal with the promise of land are Deuteronomy 30:3-5 and Ezekiel 20:42-44. In 2 Samuel 7:10–17, we see the promise made by God to King David. God makes some special promises concerning one of David's sons: God will establish his kingdom (verse 12), be his father (verse 14), and never remove His love from him (verse 15). In addition, God says this son “will build a house for my Name” (verse 13). These promises were fulfilled in Solomon. However, part of God’s promise was that David’s son’s throne would be established “forever” (verse 13). This part of the prophecy could not refer to Solomon, because Solomon died and did not retain the throne forever. Thus, we have a prophecy with a dual fulfillment: it was fulfilled partially in Solomon and fully in Jesus Christ, also called the Son of David (Matthew 1:1). Solomon did, in some ways, prefigure Christ in his kingship, wisdom, and peaceful reign. Of course, Jesus is greater than Solomon in every respect (Matthew 12:42). So, 2 Samuel 7 makes reference to Solomon’s temporary rule and to Christ’s rule during the millennium and forever. King Solomon could not be the ultimate fulfillment of the promise made to David; it is a covenant that has yet to be fully realized. With all this in mind, examine what is recorded in Revelation 20:1–7. The thousand years repeatedly mentioned in this passage corresponds to Christ’s literal 1000-year reign on the earth. Premillennialism sees this passage as describing the future fulfillment of the promise that Christ would be seated on David’s throne. God made unconditional covenants with both Abraham and David. Neither of these covenants has been fully or permanently fulfilled. A literal, physical rule of Christ is the only way the covenants can be fulfilled as God promised they would. Applying a literal method of interpretation to Scripture results in the pieces of the puzzle coming together. All of the Old Testament prophecies of Jesus’ first coming were fulfilled literally. Therefore, we should expect the prophecies regarding His second coming to be fulfilled literally as well. Premillennialism is the only system that agrees with a literal interpretation of God’s covenants and end-times prophecy. www.gotquestions.org/premillennialism.htmlThat’s what I believe as well . Good article  And Paul in Roman’s 11 has them as two delegate groups of people in His plan . Israel is not the church and the church is not Israel . |
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Post by papalandshark on Jul 7, 2023 14:33:02 GMT -8
And Paul in Roman’s 11 has them as two delegate groups of people in His plan . Israel is not the church and the church is not Israel . Indeed. Also Paul distinguishes between "Jew and Gentile" throughout the entire book despite the church being made up of both. The distinctions remained there as well. |
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Post by civic on Jul 7, 2023 15:10:01 GMT -8
And Paul in Roman’s 11 has them as two delegate groups of people in His plan . Israel is not the church and the church is not Israel . Indeed. Also Paul distinguishes between "Jew and Gentile" throughout the entire book despite the church being made up of both. The distinctions remained there as well. Exactly ! |
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Post by armylngst on Jul 8, 2023 5:25:50 GMT -8
A good layman's article on the subject. Link below. Premillennialism is the view that Christ’s second coming will occur prior to His millennial kingdom, and that the millennial kingdom is a literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth. In order to understand and interpret the passages in Scripture that deal with end-times events, there are two things that must be clearly understood: a proper method of interpreting Scripture and the distinction between Israel (the Jews) and the church (the body of all believers in Jesus Christ). First, a proper method of interpreting Scripture requires that Scripture be interpreted in a way that is consistent with its context. This means that a passage must be interpreted in a way that is consistent with the audience to which it is written, those it is written about, whom it is written by, and so on. It is critical to know the author, intended audience, and historical background of each passage one interprets. The historical and cultural setting will often reveal the correct meaning of a passage. It is also important to remember that Scripture interprets Scripture. That is, often a passage will cover a topic or subject that is also addressed elsewhere in the Bible. It is important to interpret all of these passages consistently with one another. Finally, and most importantly, passages must always be taken in their normal, regular, plain, literal meaning unless the context of the passage indicates that it is figurative in nature. A literal interpretation does not eliminate the possibility of figures of speech being used. Rather, it encourages the interpreter to not read figurative language into the meaning of a passage unless it is appropriate for that context. It is crucial to never seek a “deeper, more spiritual” meaning than is presented. Spiritualizing a passage is dangerous because it moves the basis for accurate interpretation from Scripture to the mind of the reader. Then, there can be no objective standard of interpretation; instead, Scripture becomes subject to each person’s own impression of what it means. Second Peter 1:20-21 reminds us that “no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” Applying these principles of biblical interpretation, it must be seen that Israel (Abraham’s physical descendants) and the church (all New Testament believers) are two distinct groups. It is crucial to recognize that Israel and the church are distinct because, if this is misunderstood, Scripture will be misinterpreted. Especially prone to misinterpretation are passages that deal with promises made to Israel (both fulfilled and unfulfilled). Such promises should not be applied to the church. Remember, the context of the passage will determine to whom it is addressed and will point to the most correct interpretation. With those concepts in mind, we can look at various passages of Scripture that produce the premillennial view. Genesis 12:1-3: “The LORD had said to Abram, ‘Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.’” God promises Abraham three things here: Abraham would have many descendants, this nation would own and occupy a land, and a universal blessing will come to all mankind out of Abraham’s line (the Jews). In Genesis 15:9-17, God ratifies His covenant with Abraham. By the way this is done, God places sole responsibility for the covenant upon Himself. That is, there was nothing Abraham could do or fail to do that would void the covenant God made. Also in this passage, the boundaries are set for the land that the Jews will eventually occupy. For a detailed list of the boundaries, see Deuteronomy 34. Other passages that deal with the promise of land are Deuteronomy 30:3-5 and Ezekiel 20:42-44. In 2 Samuel 7:10–17, we see the promise made by God to King David. God makes some special promises concerning one of David's sons: God will establish his kingdom (verse 12), be his father (verse 14), and never remove His love from him (verse 15). In addition, God says this son “will build a house for my Name” (verse 13). These promises were fulfilled in Solomon. However, part of God’s promise was that David’s son’s throne would be established “forever” (verse 13). This part of the prophecy could not refer to Solomon, because Solomon died and did not retain the throne forever. Thus, we have a prophecy with a dual fulfillment: it was fulfilled partially in Solomon and fully in Jesus Christ, also called the Son of David (Matthew 1:1). Solomon did, in some ways, prefigure Christ in his kingship, wisdom, and peaceful reign. Of course, Jesus is greater than Solomon in every respect (Matthew 12:42). So, 2 Samuel 7 makes reference to Solomon’s temporary rule and to Christ’s rule during the millennium and forever. King Solomon could not be the ultimate fulfillment of the promise made to David; it is a covenant that has yet to be fully realized. With all this in mind, examine what is recorded in Revelation 20:1–7. The thousand years repeatedly mentioned in this passage corresponds to Christ’s literal 1000-year reign on the earth. Premillennialism sees this passage as describing the future fulfillment of the promise that Christ would be seated on David’s throne. God made unconditional covenants with both Abraham and David. Neither of these covenants has been fully or permanently fulfilled. A literal, physical rule of Christ is the only way the covenants can be fulfilled as God promised they would. Applying a literal method of interpretation to Scripture results in the pieces of the puzzle coming together. All of the Old Testament prophecies of Jesus’ first coming were fulfilled literally. Therefore, we should expect the prophecies regarding His second coming to be fulfilled literally as well. Premillennialism is the only system that agrees with a literal interpretation of God’s covenants and end-times prophecy. www.gotquestions.org/premillennialism.htmlNotice that only the first paragraph is specifically about premillennialism. The rest of that article is a defense of the hermeneutic, not an exposition of the eschatology. I point this out because it is very common for Dispensational Premillennialist sources, like Got Questions, to practice this justification instead of exposition. It's also very common for Dispensational Premillennialists to act like DPism is the same as dispensationalism throughout Church history (it is not), and to act like the Dispensationalist premillennialism is like its Historic alternative (it is not). The TRUTH is there are two main forms of premillennialism: 1) Historic Premillennialism and 2) Dispensational Premillennialism. Therefore. separate ops need to be posted for each point of view. The former is the oldest eschatological view in Christianity. The latter is the newest (less than 200 years old). Actually it is Historic Premillennialism and futuristic premillennialism. Not all who hold what you saw above is a dispensationalist. John MacArthur holds (mostly?/fully?) to what is above, but does not consider himself a dispensationalist. He calls himself a leaky dispensationalist. Which makes sense. Believers weren't meant to wear labels and be placed in a box. Also, Papias (disciple of Polycarp) held to the view of a physical millennial kingdom over Israel, so this form of premillennialism is not recent. Eusebius recorded this in his Ecclesiastical History of the Church. He doesn't agree with Papias, but doesn't even try to give an actual reason as to why Papias believed it other than to say that he was old, and may not be remembering things correctly. (Sound like a rational argument to you?) He was a student of Polycarp, who was the disciple of John the apostle. From what I remember, I believe he even heard John speak in Smyrna. There aren't any "new" beliefs in Christianity, but beliefs that take beliefs that have been in Christianity for a while, and systematizes it. For instace, the first mention of a rapture that is clear is from the 5th or 6th century. There is a less clear version in the Shepherd of Hermas from the second century. |
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Post by civic on Jul 8, 2023 5:30:56 GMT -8
Notice that only the first paragraph is specifically about premillennialism. The rest of that article is a defense of the hermeneutic, not an exposition of the eschatology. I point this out because it is very common for Dispensational Premillennialist sources, like Got Questions, to practice this justification instead of exposition. It's also very common for Dispensational Premillennialists to act like DPism is the same as dispensationalism throughout Church history (it is not), and to act like the Dispensationalist premillennialism is like its Historic alternative (it is not). The TRUTH is there are two main forms of premillennialism: 1) Historic Premillennialism and 2) Dispensational Premillennialism. Therefore. separate ops need to be posted for each point of view. The former is the oldest eschatological view in Christianity. The latter is the newest (less than 200 years old). Actually it is Historic Premillennialism and futuristic premillennialism. Not all who hold what you saw above is a dispensationalist. John MacArthur holds (mostly?/fully?) to what is above, but does not consider himself a dispensationalist. He calls himself a leaky dispensationalist. Which makes sense. Believers weren't meant to wear labels and be placed in a box. Also, Papias (disciple of Polycarp) held to the view of a physical millennial kingdom over Israel, so this form of premillennialism is not recent. Eusebius recorded this in his Ecclesiastical History of the Church. He doesn't agree with Papias, but doesn't even try to give an actual reason as to why Papias believed it other than to say that he was old, and may not be remembering things correctly. (Sound like a rational argument to you?) He was a student of Polycarp, who was the disciple of John the apostle. From what I remember, I believe he even heard John speak in Smyrna. There aren't any "new" beliefs in Christianity, but beliefs that take beliefs that have been in Christianity for a while, and systematizes it. For instace, the first mention of a rapture that is clear is from the 5th or 6th century. There is a less clear version in the Shepherd of Hermas from the second century. Welcome my friend. Your input as a member here would be great. Please join us. As a non Calvinist I'm not very welcome on the other forums which is why I started this one a year ago. |
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Post by armylngst on Jul 8, 2023 14:37:32 GMT -8
Actually it is Historic Premillennialism and futuristic premillennialism. Not all who hold what you saw above is a dispensationalist. John MacArthur holds (mostly?/fully?) to what is above, but does not consider himself a dispensationalist. He calls himself a leaky dispensationalist. Which makes sense. Believers weren't meant to wear labels and be placed in a box. Also, Papias (disciple of Polycarp) held to the view of a physical millennial kingdom over Israel, so this form of premillennialism is not recent. Eusebius recorded this in his Ecclesiastical History of the Church. He doesn't agree with Papias, but doesn't even try to give an actual reason as to why Papias believed it other than to say that he was old, and may not be remembering things correctly. (Sound like a rational argument to you?) He was a student of Polycarp, who was the disciple of John the apostle. From what I remember, I believe he even heard John speak in Smyrna. There aren't any "new" beliefs in Christianity, but beliefs that take beliefs that have been in Christianity for a while, and systematizes it. For instace, the first mention of a rapture that is clear is from the 5th or 6th century. There is a less clear version in the Shepherd of Hermas from the second century. Welcome my friend. Your input as a member here would be great. Please join us. As a non Calvinist I'm not very welcome on the other forums which is why I started this one a year ago. It must be your approach then. I have found Calvinism to be rather logical, if incomplete. I would not call myself a Calvinist, however it is a way to avoid hours/days explaining what I believe. Just mention calvinism, and then explain where beliefs differ. I also managed to bet banned from Brannon Howse's facebook page in less than 5 minutes, but that would be another story. (And yes, it was my approach. I'm sure if I was actually kind/thoughtful, I could have made an hour.) |
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Post by civic on Jul 8, 2023 14:44:36 GMT -8
Welcome my friend. Your input as a member here would be great. Please join us. As a non Calvinist I'm not very welcome on the other forums which is why I started this one a year ago. It must be your approach then. I have found Calvinism to be rather logical, if incomplete. I would not call myself a Calvinist, however it is a way to avoid hours/days explaining what I believe. Just mention calvinism, and then explain where beliefs differ. I also managed to bet banned from Brannon Howse's facebook page in less than 5 minutes, but that would be another story. (And yes, it was my approach. I'm sure if I was actually kind/thoughtful, I could have made an hour.) It’s only been with a certain online group from a particular forum when I left Calvinism. Outside of them in in good standing with the rest. On a particular forum I was told if I joined I was not allowed to discuss PSA. What does that tell you . And you and I have had some great discussions on that topic and actually agree on more than we disagree when we talking in detail what penal means and clarifying wrath . And I’ve been enjoying reading your posts as a lurker/ guest on the other forums on your end times view and premillennialism. You have some good insight with Israel and the church . I see things much like you do which lines up with MacArthur |
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