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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 11, 2022 1:45:02 GMT -8
The problem is you have a large gap between the first resurrection and the second resurection. John calls that Gap 1000 years. Where Christ will rule and satan will be bound. The new heavens and new earth will not occur until after this thousand years. |
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toml
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Post by toml on Aug 12, 2022 0:01:41 GMT -8
The problem is you have a large gap between the first resurrection and the second resurection. John calls that Gap 1000 years. Where Christ will rule and satan will be bound. The new heavens and new earth will not occur until after this thousand years. At Christs return he ushers in the new heaven and earth So how is Christ going to rule on an old earth after his return? BTW Where do you read that gap occurs after Christs return also 1 Corinthians 15:22–26 (KJV 1900) — 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. if the last enemy death is defeated at Christ's return and he reigns until the last enemy is defeated Is he not reigning while enemies are being defeated and does his return not signal the end of his reign |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 12, 2022 3:29:58 GMT -8
As I look through the world in the past 2000 years. I do not see Christ's enemies being defeated. As for what I posted. Please explain rev 19 and 20 to me.. |
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toml
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Post by toml on Aug 12, 2022 23:59:44 GMT -8
As I look through the world in the past 2000 years. I do not see Christ's enemies being defeated. As for what I posted. Please explain rev 19 and 20 to me.. What was the world condition and the scope of Christianity's status in the first century? Rev 19 shows Christianity's victory over pagan religions as it spread throughout the world Rev 20 and Satan binding is stated specifically for the purpose of preventing him from deceiving the nations as Christianity spread thorough out the world Revelation is a highly symboic and difficult book. it would be a mistake in hermenuetics to ignore the many plain passages about details concerning Christs second advent in favor of a particular view of Revelations of which there are many |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 13, 2022 4:02:49 GMT -8
As I look through the world in the past 2000 years. I do not see Christ's enemies being defeated. As for what I posted. Please explain rev 19 and 20 to me.. What was the world condition and the scope of Christianity's status in the first century? Rev 19 shows Christianity's victory over pagan religions as it spread throughout the world Rev 20 and Satan binding is stated specifically for the purpose of preventing him from deceiving the nations as Christianity spread thorough out the world Revelation is a highly symboic and difficult book. it would be a mistake in hermenuetics to ignore the many plain passages about details concerning Christs second advent in favor of a particular view of Revelations of which there are many I see it differently Rev is just like Daniel and other OT prophets. In fact John is giving us deeper details of the ot prophets. As it is being revealed to him Its not difficult. And Jesus said we need to get it right. He would not have told us to get it right if it was difficult. You don;t have to ignore other passages about christs rule on earth. It all AGREES. What the issue is, is people do NT what to take it literally. |
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Post by civic on Aug 13, 2022 5:38:01 GMT -8
This is a good discussion I'm enjoying the dialogue. Keep it up brothers  |
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Post by rockson on Aug 13, 2022 9:01:09 GMT -8
I wonder if a great many scriptures' about the future, not all but a great many are meant for the future that is when certain things take place they'll be pointed to as in see now this fulfills this or that. Similar I think to scriptures' about Christ's first coming. There was somewhat of a mystery before Christ (the Messiah) came but the scriptures were in there to point to later. Maybe that's a cop out on my part in not having an opinion that everything is absolutely clear but I will take time to study what he one here says. I do believe as an absolute that Jesus died on the cross for my sins, that he is God who came in the flesh, he also had a physical resurrection from the dead, and is at the throne of God, AND that he is coming again. Every aspect of how he will come again I'm still trying to learn and understand. Because he IS coming again that should motivate us to live our lives in a pure way regardless how you think he will come.
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." 1 Jn 3:2
I'm reminded of the way of thinking the Holy Spirit wants us to have too where Peter by the Spirit said,
"Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." 2 Pt 3: 11
Many get upset perhaps even Christians on what they have or they don't have on a social, economic, material level but it can serve to be an actual encouragement to recognize it's all going to burn someday any way. In other words put your focus on God and your relationship with him and keep it on that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2022 13:59:54 GMT -8
Millennialism is the belief in a literal reign of Christ on earth for 1,000 years in the future. No, it is not. Only literalists define the millennium that way. Millennialism (from millennium, Latin for "a thousand years") or chiliasm (from the Greek equivalent) is a belief advanced by some religious denominations that a Golden Age or Paradise will occur on Earth prior to the final judgment and future eternal state of the "World to Come". Different eschatological positions define that period in different ways and most do NOT define it literally. |
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Post by civic on Aug 13, 2022 14:14:03 GMT -8
Millennialism is the belief in a literal reign of Christ on earth for 1,000 years in the future. No, it is not. Only literalists define the millennium that way. Millennialism (from millennium, Latin for "a thousand years") or chiliasm (from the Greek equivalent) is a belief advanced by some religious denominations that a Golden Age or Paradise will occur on Earth prior to the final judgment and future eternal state of the "World to Come". Different eschatological positions define that period in different ways and most do NOT define it literally. That is true but as you know I'm a literlist and per-milliennial but I'm not dogmatic either. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2022 18:18:49 GMT -8
No, it is not. Only literalists define the millennium that way. Millennialism (from millennium, Latin for "a thousand years") or chiliasm (from the Greek equivalent) is a belief advanced by some religious denominations that a Golden Age or Paradise will occur on Earth prior to the final judgment and future eternal state of the "World to Come". Different eschatological positions define that period in different ways and most do NOT define it literally. That is true but as you know I'm a literlist and per-milliennial but I'm not dogmatic either. Yeah, I can appreciate that but the fact remains there are four main eschatologies (four if you count Idealism) and only the premillennialists think the mention of "1000 years) in the one chapter of the one book of the Bible is literal. It was therefore inaccurate to start the op with such a statement. And I, as a partial-preterist, will wager I read scripture more literally than most. This matter of the millennium would be one of the few occasions when I find the figurative reading more consistent with the whole of scripture. I'll attend to other matters in the op as time permits but for now I'll make note the binding of satan is specific if a person reads the text literally. He is not bound in all ways; he's bound in specific ways. I don't read anything in the Rev. 20 passage stating he won't still be active and influential in ways beyond the details specified. Only a non-literal reading would conclude such a thing, especially in light of Jude. |
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toml
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Post by toml on Aug 15, 2022 0:27:32 GMT -8
I see it differently Rev is just like Daniel and other OT prophets. In fact John is giving us deeper details of the ot prophets. As it is being revealed to him Its not difficult. And Jesus said we need to get it right. He would not have told us to get it right if it was difficult. You don;t have to ignore other passages about christs rule on earth. It all AGREES. What the issue is, is people do NT what to take it literally. So you ignore what was quoted in Matthew, 1corrinthians 15, 1Thess, 2Pe 3, John etc Matthew shows universal judgment upon Christ return Mat 24:31-46 1Cor 15 shows Christ reign ends at death defeat which transpires at Christ's return 1Cor 15:23ff 1Th 4 shows resurrection and rapture all transpire at Christ's return 1th 4:15-17 2Pe 3 shows this old earth is destroyed at Christ's return along with judgment and perdition of the ungodly 2Pe 3:5-11 John shows resurrection and judgment coincide at the last day John 6:39, 44, 12:48 |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 15, 2022 7:33:38 GMT -8
I see it differently Rev is just like Daniel and other OT prophets. In fact John is giving us deeper details of the ot prophets. As it is being revealed to him Its not difficult. And Jesus said we need to get it right. He would not have told us to get it right if it was difficult. You don;t have to ignore other passages about christs rule on earth. It all AGREES. What the issue is, is people do NT what to take it literally. would you like to study matt 24? We can. Because Matt 24 shows exactly wha John and Daniel saw That after the great tribulation. Christ will return and put an end to evil in the world. and set up his own kingdom. That has not happened yet.. This also supports my view. Christ is not reigning now. This all happens at the end of his regn this passage would support all views. it depends on when this rapture takes place.. so to say it only supports your view is in error why is it you are looking at these passages. DO you not want to look at the prophets themselves? You can try to insert these passages and say they agree with you. what we need to do is get to the meet and potatos passages where we see literally what happens in theses days.. |
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toml
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Post by toml on Aug 16, 2022 0:09:14 GMT -8
would you like to study matt 24? We can. Because Matt 24 shows exactly wha John and Daniel saw That after the great tribulation. Christ will return and put an end to evil in the world. and set up his own kingdom. That has not happened yet.. Matthew 24 shows at Christ's return universal judgment transpires when all receive eternal life or eternal punishment. That is not the Millenium. That contradicts not supports your view PS I stated nothing about that having already happenedi This also supports my view. Christ is not reigning now. This all happens at the end of his regn His reign ends at his return not begins 1Cor 15:23ff A passage you have not dealth with. Yet another passage contradicting your view this passage would support all views. it depends on when this rapture takes place.. so to say it only supports your view is in error The rapture transpires why is it you are looking at these passages. DO you not want to look at the prophets themselves? You can try to insert these passages and say they agree with you. what we need to do is get to the meet and potatos passages where we see literally what happens in theses days.. Prophesy happens in Matthew, 1Corithians, 1Thess , 2Peter, Jude and they all contain information which contradicts your view They show at Christ return resurrection, rapture, universal judment with eternal fixed destiny along with a new heaven and a new earth, and the end of Christ's reign all happen That precludes an earthly millenium at Christs return ! |
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 16, 2022 6:21:15 GMT -8
The events you list are all events that are prophesied to happen during the next age and that age will occur on this old earth. Yes the earth will get destroyed but that will happen at the end of the next age not the beginning of it. |
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toml
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Post by toml on Aug 17, 2022 1:43:03 GMT -8
The events you list are all events that are prophesied to happen during the next age and that age will occur on this old earth. Yes the earth will get destroyed but that will happen at the end of the next age not the beginning of it. Those event transpire at Christ's return as per the verses quoted |
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