Post by TedT on Sept 4, 2022 10:09:26 GMT -8
I post this as an expression of my faith, what I believe about our pre-conception existence (PCE), not as proof I am right. PCE does solve some of the blasphemies the orthodox churches must embrace to keep their 'created on earth' based theologies working but that is not proof of its correctness either. I contend that we can find the truth only the Holy Spirit and not in our studies, so seek GOD on this, not the commentaries.
Neither does this speak to the other topics that are implied by our pre-conception existence which are many and varied: election, the different kinds of sinners, Adam's sin etc...it is a tip of the iceberg kind of thing.
I also know that all these verses can be and are contested for meaning. I have been promulgating this pov for a long time and have heard it all. Your favourite interpretation is not proof I am wrong, it just offers the possibility of another interpretation which I can probably explain why I find it lacking.
1.
The Necessity of Free Will
While not specifically mentioned in scripture, our free will is a necessity to keep GOD at arm's length from the creation of evil and to define those who do evil as actually guilty and to enable HIM to fulfill HIS purpose for us of being HIS Bride in a heavenly marriage.
2.
No Free Will on Earth
John 8:34 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. This was said to those who claimed to be free and if it is not true that sin enslaves, this is a waste of words. Romans 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
If there is no free will here due to our being enslaved by the addictive power of evil, our time of making our free will decisions must have been before earth.
3.
Our slavery to sin starts at least at Conception
Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. and the story of Jacob and Esau (Genesis 25) in which they were trying to crush each other to pieces, that is, to murder each other to be the first born. Yes, the word interpreted to mean "jostle" actually means to crush to pieces and refers to a murderous intent...babies in the womb can be evil.
As well, how did the twins learn about the laws of primogeniture and what that meant in their human lives??? This is impossible if they were just newly created at conception but if they were old spirits in sheol, chosen to live predetermined lives on earth, there is no reason to think they could not know what these lives might hold for them in general and bring their murderous competition with them into the womb.
4.
A verse or two about Returning
Return means: “to go or come back; revert; bring, give, send, hit, put, or pay back; a going or coming back, a happening again.”
Job 1:21 And Job said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb and naked shall I return thither. It is entirely reasonable to reject the idea that he is returning to the womb for the idea he is returning to where he came from before the womb, ie, Sheol...
Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall return to Sheol ... Kiel - Delitzsch(#16) - Yea, back to Hades must the wicked return.
It is also fair to assume that the KJV interpretation of shuv, return, as are turned into, which is actually the opposite of return, is merely an eisegetic ploy to hide this hint at life before conception in favour of life starting only at conception.
If the wicked return to sheol, why not the righteous like Job, though to a different house in the mansion of Sheol?
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Well, to return, one must have been there before, at least, according to the normal use of the word. Therefore, in this verse, it would be normal to infer that the sheep that had gone astray were at one time part of the Shepherd's flock but had strayed away from HIS care into sin. Since I am sure that the Shepherd was not negligent, the straying away from HIS care must involve some rebellion, and rebellion to GOD makes one a sinner.
Since it is normally obvious that Peter is writing to some apostatized (gone astray) Christians (people of the flock). It is also normally apparent that what he was writing is intended for every new convert in every age since.
Therefore, it seems that the Holy Spirit would have us believe that all of the Church has personally apostatized from Christ prior to their conversion to Him in this life. Since we are conceived as sinners, it is easy to see that we apostatized from Christ before our conception and that is why we are sinners at our conception / birth.
I think that Peter bore added witness to this fact in 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ...which ...hath begotten us again unto a lively hope...
Just when was the first time you were begotten by GOD? And when did you get unbegotten, (so as to be able to be begotten again)? Well, unless you are one of those earthly backslidden types, the only time such an un-begetting or rebellion could have taken place is prior to your conception. And since Peter is writing to the whole Church rather than to just the backslidden types, he must be referring to a pre-conception rebellion and the straying of HIS elect since that time, which straying or rebellion ends only upon conversion to obedience unto holiness to that Shepherd, that is, upon being born in Christ (begotten) again.
I also put the story of the prodigal son into this section: he is a member of the family when he decides to got to sin city, then he returns to HIS father...pretty straight forward. He was always a family member even when he was astray and no non-family members are mentioned as becoming family.
5.
Did we come from somewhere else?
In the parable of the weeds, Matthew 13:24-30 with its explanation (that is, with NO metaphor or hyperbole) in verses 36-43, we learn a lot of things: that the good seed are sinful or they would not be liable to be pulled up with the tares; that they have to become mature for the harvest to begin and the only maturity that saves one from judgment is the maturity of holiness and, rather than the tares being judged, the judgment day was postponed until the good seed are holy, that is, this world of suffering is the fault of the sin of the elect good seed as without their vulnerability to the judgment, the tares would have been damned long ago.
But we also learn in the explanation (which cannot contain any more metaphor or it is merely an extension of the metaphor, not a real explanation of it), that these two groups have been separated into their respective groups before they were born: Matt 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.
1. The Son of Man sows the people of the kingdom into the world. They are HIS sheep and know HIS voice.
2. The devil sows the people of the evil one into the world. HE uses them to do his desires and they are condemned already, John 3:18.
SOW cannot mean to create because the devil sows also yet I do not believe that he can create. Therefore I must accept sow is used here in its ordinary sense of "to move from a place of storage to a place of growth." It is telling that these seeds are somewhere and then taken to the world and that the people of the kingdom and the people of the evil one are in their groups before they reach the world.
Since we know they return to where they were before, to sheol, it is a small step of faith to believe they are taken from Sheol and sown in to the world as plainly told in this parable. Since only sinners are mentioned, it is not idle speculation that the doctrine that all are sinners on earth also can also mean only sinners are sown into / born on earth.
So I think PCE has it all: the necessity for our free will is not able to be fulfilled on earth by sinners so must have been fulfilled elsewhere. Since we return to Sheol it is a fair bet that we came from there and since Sheol is a spirit world it is an ideal place for our creation, early life and final free will decision making about our eternal relationship with YHWH which separates us into the three groups: the holy elect angels, the good but sinful elect seed predestined for redemption and the eternally evil demonic weeds doomed by their free will choice to sin the unforgivable sin of rebuking YHWH as a liar and a false god driven by a psychotic and evil megalomania.
Peace, Ted
Neither does this speak to the other topics that are implied by our pre-conception existence which are many and varied: election, the different kinds of sinners, Adam's sin etc...it is a tip of the iceberg kind of thing.
I also know that all these verses can be and are contested for meaning. I have been promulgating this pov for a long time and have heard it all. Your favourite interpretation is not proof I am wrong, it just offers the possibility of another interpretation which I can probably explain why I find it lacking.
1.
The Necessity of Free Will
While not specifically mentioned in scripture, our free will is a necessity to keep GOD at arm's length from the creation of evil and to define those who do evil as actually guilty and to enable HIM to fulfill HIS purpose for us of being HIS Bride in a heavenly marriage.
2.
No Free Will on Earth
John 8:34 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. This was said to those who claimed to be free and if it is not true that sin enslaves, this is a waste of words. Romans 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
If there is no free will here due to our being enslaved by the addictive power of evil, our time of making our free will decisions must have been before earth.
3.
Our slavery to sin starts at least at Conception
Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. and the story of Jacob and Esau (Genesis 25) in which they were trying to crush each other to pieces, that is, to murder each other to be the first born. Yes, the word interpreted to mean "jostle" actually means to crush to pieces and refers to a murderous intent...babies in the womb can be evil.
As well, how did the twins learn about the laws of primogeniture and what that meant in their human lives??? This is impossible if they were just newly created at conception but if they were old spirits in sheol, chosen to live predetermined lives on earth, there is no reason to think they could not know what these lives might hold for them in general and bring their murderous competition with them into the womb.
4.
A verse or two about Returning
Return means: “to go or come back; revert; bring, give, send, hit, put, or pay back; a going or coming back, a happening again.”
Job 1:21 And Job said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb and naked shall I return thither. It is entirely reasonable to reject the idea that he is returning to the womb for the idea he is returning to where he came from before the womb, ie, Sheol...
Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall return to Sheol ... Kiel - Delitzsch(#16) - Yea, back to Hades must the wicked return.
It is also fair to assume that the KJV interpretation of shuv, return, as are turned into, which is actually the opposite of return, is merely an eisegetic ploy to hide this hint at life before conception in favour of life starting only at conception.
If the wicked return to sheol, why not the righteous like Job, though to a different house in the mansion of Sheol?
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Well, to return, one must have been there before, at least, according to the normal use of the word. Therefore, in this verse, it would be normal to infer that the sheep that had gone astray were at one time part of the Shepherd's flock but had strayed away from HIS care into sin. Since I am sure that the Shepherd was not negligent, the straying away from HIS care must involve some rebellion, and rebellion to GOD makes one a sinner.
Since it is normally obvious that Peter is writing to some apostatized (gone astray) Christians (people of the flock). It is also normally apparent that what he was writing is intended for every new convert in every age since.
Therefore, it seems that the Holy Spirit would have us believe that all of the Church has personally apostatized from Christ prior to their conversion to Him in this life. Since we are conceived as sinners, it is easy to see that we apostatized from Christ before our conception and that is why we are sinners at our conception / birth.
I think that Peter bore added witness to this fact in 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ...which ...hath begotten us again unto a lively hope...
Just when was the first time you were begotten by GOD? And when did you get unbegotten, (so as to be able to be begotten again)? Well, unless you are one of those earthly backslidden types, the only time such an un-begetting or rebellion could have taken place is prior to your conception. And since Peter is writing to the whole Church rather than to just the backslidden types, he must be referring to a pre-conception rebellion and the straying of HIS elect since that time, which straying or rebellion ends only upon conversion to obedience unto holiness to that Shepherd, that is, upon being born in Christ (begotten) again.
I also put the story of the prodigal son into this section: he is a member of the family when he decides to got to sin city, then he returns to HIS father...pretty straight forward. He was always a family member even when he was astray and no non-family members are mentioned as becoming family.
5.
Did we come from somewhere else?
In the parable of the weeds, Matthew 13:24-30 with its explanation (that is, with NO metaphor or hyperbole) in verses 36-43, we learn a lot of things: that the good seed are sinful or they would not be liable to be pulled up with the tares; that they have to become mature for the harvest to begin and the only maturity that saves one from judgment is the maturity of holiness and, rather than the tares being judged, the judgment day was postponed until the good seed are holy, that is, this world of suffering is the fault of the sin of the elect good seed as without their vulnerability to the judgment, the tares would have been damned long ago.
But we also learn in the explanation (which cannot contain any more metaphor or it is merely an extension of the metaphor, not a real explanation of it), that these two groups have been separated into their respective groups before they were born: Matt 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.
1. The Son of Man sows the people of the kingdom into the world. They are HIS sheep and know HIS voice.
2. The devil sows the people of the evil one into the world. HE uses them to do his desires and they are condemned already, John 3:18.
SOW cannot mean to create because the devil sows also yet I do not believe that he can create. Therefore I must accept sow is used here in its ordinary sense of "to move from a place of storage to a place of growth." It is telling that these seeds are somewhere and then taken to the world and that the people of the kingdom and the people of the evil one are in their groups before they reach the world.
Since we know they return to where they were before, to sheol, it is a small step of faith to believe they are taken from Sheol and sown in to the world as plainly told in this parable. Since only sinners are mentioned, it is not idle speculation that the doctrine that all are sinners on earth also can also mean only sinners are sown into / born on earth.
So I think PCE has it all: the necessity for our free will is not able to be fulfilled on earth by sinners so must have been fulfilled elsewhere. Since we return to Sheol it is a fair bet that we came from there and since Sheol is a spirit world it is an ideal place for our creation, early life and final free will decision making about our eternal relationship with YHWH which separates us into the three groups: the holy elect angels, the good but sinful elect seed predestined for redemption and the eternally evil demonic weeds doomed by their free will choice to sin the unforgivable sin of rebuking YHWH as a liar and a false god driven by a psychotic and evil megalomania.
Peace, Ted
