|
|
Post by civic on Aug 7, 2022 5:56:42 GMT -8
Hypostatic Union
1. Jesus is a person. (1 Tim 2:5)
2. Jesus, the Person, has two natures- Divine and human (John 1:1, 14, 1 Timothy 3:16): Divine and human. This is the Hypostatic Union.( Col 2:9, Heb 1:3,2:16)
3. The Communicatio Idiomatum (Communication of the Properties) states that the attributes of His Divine nature and human nature are both ascribed to the one Person of Jesus. So Jesus can exhibit attributes of Divinity (Omnipresence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, . John 2:23, 3:13, 8:58, He was prayed to in Acts 7:59, John 14:13, He was is worshiped Matt 2:2:11, Rev 5:13-14) and at the same time exhibit attributes of His humanity( He was tempted, ate, prayed,wept, grew in wisdom and stature,was anointed,was baptized, the Father was greater, didn’t know the day or the hour of His Return, He cried My God my God why has Thou forsaken Me, He died etc.). The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that any part of the Divine nature was communicated to the human nature.
4. The Man(anthropos) Jesus is what we perceive (if we were there 2000 years ago in Israel) and through the Man we encounter the Divine nature (Jesus knowing all things, is on earth while in heaven, answers prayer, forgiving sins, etc.).
5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)
6. The Divine Nature is within the Trinity.(Father, Son and Holy Spirit)
7. Since the Person of Jesus claims the attributes of Divinity(John 3:13,8:58,Matthew 9:2,12:8), then the Person of Jesus is a member of the Trinity.( John 14-16, Math 28:19)
Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross. The term "hypostatic union" refers to the two natures united in the one Person, so anything said of those two natures in the one Person applies to the whole Person. So we see that the Person of Christ is both God and man. The phrase hypostatic union was adopted by the general council at Chalcedon 451 AD. That council declared that the union of two natures is real (against Arius), not a mere indwelling of God in a man (against Nestorius), with a rational soul (against Apollinaris), and that in Christ’s Divine nature remains unchanged (against Eutyches).
We need to look to the Monothelite Controversy which had to deal with whether there was one or two wills/minds in the person of Christ. The outcome was that there were two; one human and one divine with the human subjected to the divine. The eternal Son of God did not assume a part of a human nature without a mind, without a will, without human activity, but He assumed all the things that were planted in our nature by God.
Now then, to act (or in this case, speak) is the work of a person, but the form or nature is the cause of this action; for each person acts in accord with the form or nature which it has. A difference in causes (natures) produces a difference in effects (actions). Therefore, where there are different natures, there are also different activities. So in the one Person of Christ there are two natural actions, the divine and the human, each of which has its own essential attributes, functions, and actions. Jesus was thirty years old according to His human nature (Luke 3:23); according to His divine nature He could say: "Before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58). The question is did both natures know this and communicate it to the Person. The answer is yes because the divine nature with its corresponding divine will willed the human nature to respond in such a fashion in keeping with Christ's office and ministry. In the text regarding Mark 13:32, we have a slightly different situation here. Christ is acting (speaking) from His human nature, but, this time, the divine will does not allow the human will access to this knowledge. For this information is not to be published on earth. Therefore, as man, Christ cannot answer the question. In the works pertaining to the office of Christ as Prophet, Priest, and King both natures act in conjunction with each other, each nature doing what is peculiar to the same. The book of Hebrews goes into great detail with these offices.
hope this helps !!!
|
|
e v e
Full Member
Posts: 214
|
Post by e v e on Aug 8, 2022 7:18:25 GMT -8
I dont see any problem or heresy saying that all of us in Eden had His nature.. which He gave us...and that we will be restored to our eden nature, which is His type of nature, at the Change... that doesn't make us God, to have His nature, but means we were born of God... (as opposed to being born of this world and its 'nature', our current situation which Christ played out to save us!)
before we had to come to this earth when adam disobeyed we were in eden, born of God. Literally. I do not mean some abstract metaphor or speak rhetorically when I say it...
that each of us who is His was born of Him, in the other reality. That is what it means that He knew us before time (this world.)
nature is stated here as a term, in the common, natural sense...such as trees belong to nature and weather is a factor of nature. the nature on this current earth is not His Nature, is the way I use the term nature.
we were born not simply as creatures, as some translators reasoned on their own... we were born as his sons and daughters in Eden, in his image, which is His nature.. which explains why and how the sons will rule with Christ and will be restored to their Original (the original body of eden, which is the temple of God and
in His image.) this body is not a temple of anything but sin and is not in His image. It has some aspects of eden, just to keep us alive until the Change, out of His mercy for us in this situation we inherited from adam,
(the situation being 'flesh', this type of ape body prison)
the physical nature here is not Christ's physical nature which many claim. I'm not saying you claim that.
the physical nature here is deformed, and is the fallen nature, flesh ..caused by adam. Not God's nature. God did not create this freak show. Adam did that, with the fallen angels. as usual, I don't expect any one will agree with me, but that is because of the lawlessness theme...
lawlessness is factually to deny or else not to know about or understand His covenant, which has always been the restoration of Paradise...
that we return to eden, His creation that He declared Good ...
He calls the attitude of the soul that does not want to hear about his covenant – or has simply no knowledge about it ! – 'lawless' |
|
e v e
Full Member
Posts: 214
|
Post by e v e on Aug 8, 2022 7:25:35 GMT -8
I am still not clear on the quoting function on this forum and so I didn't use it. I'm old...what can I say.
|
|
e v e
Full Member
Posts: 214
|
Post by e v e on Aug 8, 2022 7:30:20 GMT -8
in continuation of my longer post...
original sin is a cosmological situation we are in..
that we were born IN sin means
that we were born into this nature and world which is not His, not eden
this reality and nature is DEATH
and we grapple with that every day...
think about it, everything here, every single comfort here,
is devised to solve a problem.
the fall has cosmological consequences for us.
and that is what original sin is...
that we are living in a foreign land God calls Death.
|
|
|
|
Post by TibiasDad on Aug 8, 2022 18:27:21 GMT -8
Hypostatic Union
1. Jesus is a person. (1 Tim 2:5) 2. Jesus, the Person, has two natures- Divine and human (John 1:1, 14, 1 Timothy 3:16): Divine and human. This is the Hypostatic Union.( Col 2:9, Heb 1:3,2:16) 3. The Communicatio Idiomatum (Communication of the Properties) states that the attributes of His Divine nature and human nature are both ascribed to the one Person of Jesus. So Jesus can exhibit attributes of Divinity (Omnipresence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, . John 2:23, 3:13, 8:58, He was prayed to in Acts 7:59, John 14:13, He was is worshiped Matt 2:2:11, Rev 5:13-14) and at the same time exhibit attributes of His humanity( He was tempted, ate, prayed,wept, grew in wisdom and stature,was anointed,was baptized, the Father was greater, didn’t know the day or the hour of His Return, He cried My God my God why has Thou forsaken Me, He died etc.). The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that any part of the Divine nature was communicated to the human nature. 4. The Man(anthropos) Jesus is what we perceive (if we were there 2000 years ago in Israel) and through the Man we encounter the Divine nature (Jesus knowing all things, is on earth while in heaven, answers prayer, forgiving sins, etc.). 5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7) 6. The Divine Nature is within the Trinity.(Father, Son and Holy Spirit) 7. Since the Person of Jesus claims the attributes of Divinity(John 3:13,8:58,Matthew 9:2,12:8), then the Person of Jesus is a member of the Trinity.( John 14-16, Math 28:19) Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross. The term "hypostatic union" refers to the two natures united in the one Person, so anything said of those two natures in the one Person applies to the whole Person. So we see that the Person of Christ is both God and man. The phrase hypostatic union was adopted by the general council at Chalcedon 451 AD. That council declared that the union of two natures is real ( against Arius), not a mere indwelling of God in a man ( against Nestorius), with a rational soul ( against Apollinaris), and that in Christ’s Divine nature remains unchanged ( against Eutyches). We need to look to the Monothelite Controversy which had to deal with whether there was one or two wills/minds in the person of Christ. The outcome was that there were two; one human and one divine with the human subjected to the divine. The eternal Son of God did not assume a part of a human nature without a mind, without a will, without human activity, but He assumed all the things that were planted in our nature by God. Now then, to act (or in this case, speak) is the work of a person, but the form or nature is the cause of this action; for each person acts in accord with the form or nature which it has. A difference in causes (natures) produces a difference in effects (actions). Therefore, where there are different natures, there are also different activities. So in the one Person of Christ there are two natural actions, the divine and the human, each of which has its own essential attributes, functions, and actions. Jesus was thirty years old according to His human nature (Luke 3:23); according to His divine nature He could say: "Before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58). The question is did both natures know this and communicate it to the Person. The answer is yes because the divine nature with its corresponding divine will willed the human nature to respond in such a fashion in keeping with Christ's office and ministry. In the text regarding Mark 13:32, we have a slightly different situation here. Christ is acting (speaking) from His human nature, but, this time, the divine will does not allow the human will access to this knowledge. For this information is not to be published on earth. Therefore, as man, Christ cannot answer the question. In the works pertaining to the office of Christ as Prophet, Priest, and King both natures act in conjunction with each other, each nature doing what is peculiar to the same. The book of Hebrews goes into great detail with these offices. hope this helps !!! This is where the logic of this argument creates a logical conundrum for me. You have two wills but only one person, which begs at least a couple of questions: - A will cannot exist sans a person. So if the personality is that of the Word become flesh, then there is no strictly human person to have a strictly human will. The opposite is equally true: If the one person is human, then there is no heavenly person to correspond to the heavenly will.
- The logical result of your argument is there is no split personality, but there is a dichotomy of wills belonging to this one person! That the Word become flesh has taken on another, distinct and independent will in addition to his divine will.
- Lastly, how can the Word become flesh, the Lord Jesus, be fully human without a strictly human personality to compliment the strictly will that is claimed to exist?
My point is not to deny your argument, but to show that it has some real logical loopholes that I find concerning. There are issues with theories opposing this as well, and perhaps I am just hiding in a metaphysical fox hole, but I'm not sure that there can be a human understanding that doesn't become logically self-stultifying when we attempt to quantify the mystery of the incarnation!
Doug |
|
e v e
Full Member
Posts: 214
|
Post by e v e on Aug 14, 2022 13:58:27 GMT -8
is that not a rcc council?
how is that valid ? we need consult with Him and start over |
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Aug 31, 2022 9:11:23 GMT -8
The way I was taught the hypostatic union is that the union of Jesus’ divine and human natures are in one person. Hypostatic comes from the Greek word often translated “person.” So, the hypostatic union is the personal union of Jesus’ two natures.
The Chalcedonian Declaration says that Jesus has two complete natures in one person. It uses four adverbs translated “without”: without confusion, without change, without division, without separation. One group of heretics taught that Jesus had only one nature, because his divinity and humanity were mingled together, confused, or changed into one another. They were called monophysites, from a word that means “one nature.”
Then you have another group of heretics teaching that Jesus was really like two persons walking around in one body. They were called Nestorians. If they come around your house and knock on the door don't answer it.
Now there are some things Jesus did that reflect more his divine nature (like doing miracles) and others that reflect more his human nature (like hungering and thirsting). But remember that his actions are not actions of a nature but of a person. Natures don’t do anything; persons do. When Jesus works a miracle, it is his person who works the miracle. When he suffers, it is his person who suffers. That person is the second person of the Trinity, who has taken on a human nature. So, in a real sense, it is God, a divine and human person, who hungers and thirsts, who suffers and dies for us.
|
|
|
|
Post by makesends on Aug 31, 2022 17:14:59 GMT -8
The way I was taught the hypostatic union is that the union of Jesus’ divine and human natures are in one person. Hypostatic comes from the Greek word often translated “person.” So, the hypostatic union is the personal union of Jesus’ two natures. The Chalcedonian Declaration says that Jesus has two complete natures in one person. It uses four adverbs translated “without”: without confusion, without change, without division, without separation. One group of heretics taught that Jesus had only one nature, because his divinity and humanity were mingled together, confused, or changed into one another. They were called monophysites, from a word that means “one nature.” Then you have another group of heretics teaching that Jesus was really like two persons walking around in one body. They were called Nestorians. If they come around your house and knock on the door don't answer it. Now there are some things Jesus did that reflect more his divine nature (like doing miracles) and others that reflect more his human nature (like hungering and thirsting). But remember that his actions are not actions of a nature but of a person. Natures don’t do anything; persons do. When Jesus works a miracle, it is his person who works the miracle. When he suffers, it is his person who suffers. That person is the second person of the Trinity, who has taken on a human nature. So, in a real sense, it is God, a divine and human person, who hungers and thirsts, who suffers and dies for us. But God cannot die. |
|
|
|
Post by Redeemed on Aug 31, 2022 17:37:01 GMT -8
Well let's take a look at The Cross, and you there see Jesus bearing our sins in His own body on the tree. There is infinite merit in the sacrifice of this God–man. Without His death And His resurrection there would be no salvation. But there, on that cross, God entered into solidarity with us human beings in our suffering. In the person of the Son, God took on flesh and blood, He Became one of us. He defeated sin and death.
|
|
|
|
Post by makesends on Aug 31, 2022 17:46:10 GMT -8
Hypostatic Union
1. Jesus is a person. (1 Tim 2:5) 2. Jesus, the Person, has two natures- Divine and human (John 1:1, 14, 1 Timothy 3:16): Divine and human. This is the Hypostatic Union.( Col 2:9, Heb 1:3,2:16) 3. The Communicatio Idiomatum (Communication of the Properties) states that the attributes of His Divine nature and human nature are both ascribed to the one Person of Jesus. So Jesus can exhibit attributes of Divinity (Omnipresence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, . John 2:23, 3:13, 8:58, He was prayed to in Acts 7:59, John 14:13, He was is worshiped Matt 2:2:11, Rev 5:13-14) and at the same time exhibit attributes of His humanity( He was tempted, ate, prayed,wept, grew in wisdom and stature,was anointed,was baptized, the Father was greater, didn’t know the day or the hour of His Return, He cried My God my God why has Thou forsaken Me, He died etc.). The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that any part of the Divine nature was communicated to the human nature. 4. The Man(anthropos) Jesus is what we perceive (if we were there 2000 years ago in Israel) and through the Man we encounter the Divine nature (Jesus knowing all things, is on earth while in heaven, answers prayer, forgiving sins, etc.). 5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7) 6. The Divine Nature is within the Trinity.(Father, Son and Holy Spirit) 7. Since the Person of Jesus claims the attributes of Divinity(John 3:13,8:58,Matthew 9:2,12:8), then the Person of Jesus is a member of the Trinity.( John 14-16, Math 28:19) Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross. The term "hypostatic union" refers to the two natures united in the one Person, so anything said of those two natures in the one Person applies to the whole Person. So we see that the Person of Christ is both God and man. The phrase hypostatic union was adopted by the general council at Chalcedon 451 AD. That council declared that the union of two natures is real ( against Arius), not a mere indwelling of God in a man ( against Nestorius), with a rational soul ( against Apollinaris), and that in Christ’s Divine nature remains unchanged ( against Eutyches). We need to look to the Monothelite Controversy which had to deal with whether there was one or two wills/minds in the person of Christ. The outcome was that there were two; one human and one divine with the human subjected to the divine. The eternal Son of God did not assume a part of a human nature without a mind, without a will, without human activity, but He assumed all the things that were planted in our nature by God. Now then, to act (or in this case, speak) is the work of a person, but the form or nature is the cause of this action; for each person acts in accord with the form or nature which it has. A difference in causes (natures) produces a difference in effects (actions). Therefore, where there are different natures, there are also different activities. So in the one Person of Christ there are two natural actions, the divine and the human, each of which has its own essential attributes, functions, and actions. Jesus was thirty years old according to His human nature (Luke 3:23); according to His divine nature He could say: "Before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58). The question is did both natures know this and communicate it to the Person. The answer is yes because the divine nature with its corresponding divine will willed the human nature to respond in such a fashion in keeping with Christ's office and ministry. In the text regarding Mark 13:32, we have a slightly different situation here. Christ is acting (speaking) from His human nature, but, this time, the divine will does not allow the human will access to this knowledge. For this information is not to be published on earth. Therefore, as man, Christ cannot answer the question. In the works pertaining to the office of Christ as Prophet, Priest, and King both natures act in conjunction with each other, each nature doing what is peculiar to the same. The book of Hebrews goes into great detail with these offices. hope this helps !!! This is where the logic of this argument creates a logical conundrum for me. You have two wills but only one person, which begs at least a couple of questions: - A will cannot exist sans a person. So if the personality is that of the Word become flesh, then there is no strictly human person to have a strictly human will. The opposite is equally true: If the one person is human, then there is no heavenly person to correspond to the heavenly will.
- The logical result of your argument is there is no split personality, but there is a dichotomy of wills belonging to this one person! That the Word become flesh has taken on another, distinct and independent will in addition to his divine will.
- Lastly, how can the Word become flesh, the Lord Jesus, be fully human without a strictly human personality to compliment the strictly will that is claimed to exist?
My point is not to deny your argument, but to show that it has some real logical loopholes that I find concerning. There are issues with theories opposing this as well, and perhaps I am just hiding in a metaphysical fox hole, but I'm not sure that there can be a human understanding that doesn't become logically self-stultifying when we attempt to quantify the mystery of the incarnation!
Doug There is, to add to those problems, the fact that "will" as we humans know it, doesn't exactly apply to God. To him, to will and to do are one and the same thing. It doesn't really compute in our experience. It's not a matter of competition between Christ's humanity and his divinity, but subservience to the Father, as the Son, to which 'otherness' (as over against his humanity), his humanity happily apprehended. The only real paradoxes in this are in our mind —that is, to God this is not confusing nor difficult— yet it is obvious it cannot happen that any of us could also be God, as some cults claim; it is not going to happen again. |
|
|
|
Post by TibiasDad on Aug 31, 2022 19:06:40 GMT -8
This is where the logic of this argument creates a logical conundrum for me. You have two wills but only one person, which begs at least a couple of questions: - A will cannot exist sans a person. So if the personality is that of the Word become flesh, then there is no strictly human person to have a strictly human will. The opposite is equally true: If the one person is human, then there is no heavenly person to correspond to the heavenly will.
- The logical result of your argument is there is no split personality, but there is a dichotomy of wills belonging to this one person! That the Word become flesh has taken on another, distinct and independent will in addition to his divine will.
- Lastly, how can the Word become flesh, the Lord Jesus, be fully human without a strictly human personality to compliment the strictly will that is claimed to exist?
My point is not to deny your argument, but to show that it has some real logical loopholes that I find concerning. There are issues with theories opposing this as well, and perhaps I am just hiding in a metaphysical fox hole, but I'm not sure that there can be a human understanding that doesn't become logically self-stultifying when we attempt to quantify the mystery of the incarnation!
Doug There is, to add to those problems, the fact that "will" as we humans know it, doesn't exactly apply to God. To him, to will and to do are one and the same thing. It doesn't really compute in our experience. It's not a matter of competition between Christ's humanity and his divinity, but subservience to the Father, as the Son, to which 'otherness' (as over against his humanity), his humanity happily apprehended. The only real paradoxes in this are in our mind —that is, to God this is not confusing nor difficult— yet it is obvious it cannot happen that any of us could also be God, as some cults claim; it is not going to happen again. Hi makesends, welcome to the forum! I don't think that to will and to do are the same thing, for that effectively destroys any real sense of meaning to the concepts of both his independent will and his personhood. That God wills something does not means it happens. He wills, for example, that we do not sin, and yet we do. He wills that all come to repentance, but not all do! Our will is directly from his will, so the natures of both are very similar, and differ only is scope of power. God's will is sovereign, ours is subjected to his. His is will is absolute, but ours is limited and can be overridden. Doug |
|
|
|
Post by civic on Sept 1, 2022 4:11:24 GMT -8
There is, to add to those problems, the fact that "will" as we humans know it, doesn't exactly apply to God. To him, to will and to do are one and the same thing. It doesn't really compute in our experience. It's not a matter of competition between Christ's humanity and his divinity, but subservience to the Father, as the Son, to which 'otherness' (as over against his humanity), his humanity happily apprehended. The only real paradoxes in this are in our mind —that is, to God this is not confusing nor difficult— yet it is obvious it cannot happen that any of us could also be God, as some cults claim; it is not going to happen again. Hi makesends, welcome to the forum! I don't think that to will and to do are the same thing, for that effectively destroys any real sense of meaning to the concepts of both his independent will and his personhood. That God wills something does not means it happens. He wills, for example, that we do not sin, and yet we do. He wills that all come to repentance, but not all do! Our will is directly from his will, so the natures of both are very similar, and differ only is scope of power. God's will is sovereign, ours is subjected to his. His is will is absolute, but ours is limited and can be overridden. Doug Good points Doug ! |
|
