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Post by civic on Aug 8, 2022 14:08:09 GMT -8
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty !
These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the NT but always to Jesus.
Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty
Revelation 1:17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:
We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that lives, was dead but is alive forevermore is Christ.
Revelation 2:8
"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.
Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.
Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
The immediate text clearly tells us that it was Jesus who was pierced and who is Coming in the clouds. This person coming in the clouds is God(Jesus-the Son of Man),
Daniel 7:13-14
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
Matthew 24:30-31
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."
1 Thessalonians 4:17-18
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!
Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
hope this helps !!!
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101G
New Member
The Binding Covenant
Posts: 49 
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Post by 101G on Aug 14, 2022 17:22:51 GMT -8
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty ! These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the NT but always to Jesus. Revelation 1:7-8 7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty Revelation 1:17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last: We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that lives, was dead but is alive forevermore is Christ. Revelation 2:8 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. Revelation 22:12-13 12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega. Revelation 22:16,20 16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star." 20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. The immediate text clearly tells us that it was Jesus who was pierced and who is Coming in the clouds. This person coming in the clouds is God(Jesus-the Son of Man), Daniel 7:13-14 And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. Matthew 24:30-31 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." 1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. Revelation 1:7-8 7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!! Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. hope this helps 100% correct. as Alpha and Omega, or the First and the Last God is showing us that he is a plurality of HIMSELF, but not in PERSON(S), for Heb 1:3 eliminates any possibility of a separate and distinct second person. "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;". here in Hebrews 1:3 the trinity is eliminated as for a Father and Son as separate and distinct person(s), and here's why. the term EXPRESS, another word for it is "Exact". and the scripture states the Exact/Express IMAGE of, of, of his, his, his, PERSON. meaning the Spirit that was in the Body called JESUS is God himself Manifested in flesh, as the EQUAL SHARE of himself, or as the Ordinal LAST of himself. not someone else, no .... read Hebrews 1:3 again. the IMANGE of that person in flesh is the "EXACT" same/Express ... person manifested in flesh. I ask all trinitarians to re-examine Hebrew 1:3, for it has no room, and eliminates any second, separate and distinct person. as do John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24, as to who "MADE ALL THINGS". For the OP stated it, Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last". as said, if the First is also the Last then it's the same " exact/Expressed" person as Hebrews 1:3 clearly points out. looking to hear for any interested poster in finding out the "TRUTH" PICJAG, 101G. |
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Post by Aeliana on Aug 31, 2022 6:02:09 GMT -8
ALPHA AND OMEGA. The first and last letters of the Greek alphabet, symbolically representing the beginning and the end. The book of Revelation uses the phrase “alpha and omega” to describe both God and Jesus.
Rev. 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty
Rev. 21:6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment.
Rev. 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let him who hears say, “Come.” And let him who is thirsty come, let him who desires take the water of life without price.
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101G
New Member
The Binding Covenant
Posts: 49
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Post by 101G on Sept 29, 2022 6:28:14 GMT -8
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty ! These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the NT but always to Jesus. GINOLJC The Revelation of Jesus Christ as the I AM THAT I AM, the "ONLY PERSON, GOD, In the Book Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;"This letter is from one person, the Lord Jesus, who is the Almighty. Who holds the Title God, Ordinal First, and Last. Here is where the other Persons who suppose to be in the Godhead is vetted by scripture or not. Lets follow the bible, not our beliefs. In Revelation 1:1 it states who sent the Letter. only one person sent his angel to John, but John is saying that the letter is from…. “him”, one person. And he identifies who this one person is, A. Him, “which is, and which was, and which is to come”. B. Him, “the seven Spirits”. C. Him, “the faithful witness”, Jesus the Christ. I know some will say I’m on a trail to disprove the trinity, NO, I’m NOT, let the scriptures fall where they may. John is giving us clear vetting process as to who the one person that sent this letter to the seven churches, via John. Remember this is a revelation of …. Jesus the Christ. This one person holds all these identifying Appellation, or Epithet, which are mention above. this changes the whole dynamic of the book as we once believed, and the way we should read and understand this book. If the Lord Jesus holds all these identifying Appellation, or Epithet then one will have to consider what they believe. but leaving that alone, Lets follow the Appellation, and the Epithet and see if this is the one same person. #1. him, “which is, and which was, and which is to come". is this the Lord Jesus?. Evidence #1. Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty”. So the “which is, and which was, and which is to come” is A. the Almighty, B. the Alpha and the Omega, and C. the Lord. Evidence #2. Revelation 4:8 "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which is, and which was, and which is to come”. Again the which is, and which was, and which is to come is the Lord God Almighty. Evidence #3. Revelation 11:17 "Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned". So clearly, we see that him, “which art, and wast, and art to come“, it the Lord God Almighty. But is this JESUS? #2. him, the “Seven Spirits”. is this the Lord Jesus also? Evidence #1. Revelation 3:1 "And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead”. We know that this is the Lord Jesus who is addressing the church in Sardis, and he, the “Lord” Jesus said that he has the “Seven Spirits”. Evidence #2. Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth”. BINGO, “which are the seven Spirits of God ”. so it is the Lord JESUS. for he stood/resurrected. Evidence #3. the one who have the seven Spirits is the Same one who is the First and the Last, Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death". the omly one who was dead and live evermore is JESUS. So the one who have the seven Spirit is the First and the Last who is the Lord God Almighty. Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last”. who is the “First & Last?”, the Lord God Almighty. BINGO, that confirm who is the Lord God Almighty is, JESUS. And lastly, “the true witness”, that’s a no brainier, a give me. The Lord Jesus. The only person who is the central theme of this book is the Lord Jesus, who is the Spirit, and God is a Spirit (John 4:24a). so no Modalism here. what's not here is three seperate and distinct persons. THIS IS NOT ME, BUT THE BIBLE. we willl see this clearly later on in the chapter. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2022 9:42:37 GMT -8
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty ! These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God.................... hope this helps !!! Yep. I don't know how anyone can read all of the many, many comparisons the New Testament makes between God in the Old Testament and Jesus in the New Testament and not conclude either Jesus is indeed God or the entire New Testament and all Christians who have ever lived are heretical. It's quite clear the Sadducees and Pharisees thought he was heretical. He was either a heretic or true and correct with every word. |
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Post by civic on Dec 1, 2022 7:28:25 GMT -8
12 I Am Sayings of Jesus, not 8 as most scholars discuss.
1. Bread
“I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger.” John 6:35
2. Light
“I am the light of the world; he who fallows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.” John 8:12
3. Gate
“I am the gate; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” John 10:9
4. Good Shepherd
“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for His sheep.” John 10:11
5. Resurrection and Life
“I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies.” John 11:25
6. Way, Truth, Life
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.” John 14:6
7. True vine
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.” John 15:1
8. I Am
“unless you believe I Am He you will die in your sins” John 8:24
9. I Am
Before Abraham was born I AM- John 8:58
10, I Am the Alpha and Omega the Lord God Almighty. Revelatin 1:8
11. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Rev 22:13
12. I Am the First and the Last. Revelation 1:17-18, Revelation 2:8, Isaiah 44:6
Indeed Christ is the I Am of the OT, the same I Am in Exodus 3:13 and Isaiah 44.
hope this helps !!!
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Post by TibiasDad on Dec 2, 2022 9:48:37 GMT -8
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty ! These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the NT but always to Jesus. Revelation 1:7-8 7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty Revelation 1:17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last: We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that lives, was dead but is alive forevermore is Christ. Revelation 2:8 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. Revelation 22:12-13 12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega. Revelation 22:16,20 16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star." 20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. The immediate text clearly tells us that it was Jesus who was pierced and who is Coming in the clouds. This person coming in the clouds is God(Jesus-the Son of Man), Daniel 7:13-14 And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. Matthew 24:30-31 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." 1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. Revelation 1:7-8 7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!! Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. hope this helps 100% correct. as Alpha and Omega, or the First and the Last God is showing us that he is a plurality of HIMSELF, but not in PERSON(S), for Heb 1:3 eliminates any possibility of a separate and distinct second person. "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;". here in Hebrews 1:3 the trinity is eliminated as for a Father and Son as separate and distinct person(s), and here's why. the term EXPRESS, another word for it is "Exact". and the scripture states the Exact/Express IMAGE of, of, of his, his, his, PERSON. meaning the Spirit that was in the Body called JESUS is God himself Manifested in flesh, as the EQUAL SHARE of himself, or as the Ordinal LAST of himself. not someone else, no .... read Hebrews 1:3 again. the IMANGE of that person in flesh is the "EXACT" same/Express ... person manifested in flesh. I ask all trinitarians to re-examine Hebrew 1:3, for it has no room, and eliminates any second, separate and distinct person. as do John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24, as to who "MADE ALL THINGS". For the OP stated it, Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last". as said, if the First is also the Last then it's the same " exact/Expressed" person as Hebrews 1:3 clearly points out. looking to hear for any interested poster in finding out the "TRUTH" PICJAG, 101G. Welcome to the forum! ὑπόστασις is the substance or primary essence, the foundational qualities that define a particular reality! It does not mean, in itself, and individual person, but the Son, Jesus, to whom this adjective is applied is a distinct person from the Father! Doug |
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Post by civic on Dec 3, 2022 11:48:45 GMT -8
Welcome to the forum! ὑπόστασις is the substance or primary essence, the foundational qualities that define a particular reality! It does not mean, in itself, and individual person, but the Son, Jesus, to whom this adjective is applied is a distinct person from the Father! Doug Spot on brother ! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2022 13:24:45 GMT -8
I ask all trinitarians to re-examine Hebrew 1:3, for it has no room, and eliminates any second, separate and distinct person. Except it does have room and does not eliminate a separate distinct person. In point of fact the verse asserts a distinct person. Both cases assert two individuals as possessing divine attributes, function or purpose. There are either two Gods, or one God in which multiple Persons exist. This is especially true of the John 1 text because the passage explicitly states a "with," that thereby indicates a relationship between two or more entities. The person who is the word made flesh was with God and is God. Had the text simply states the word (logos) is God then we might not have any reason to think there is any distinction but because the text also stipulates a "with" there is a necessarly stated relationship between the word and the God who is the word. The same conditions work also with the "with." If all the text stated was the logos was with God we'd have no basis for holding the word is God. The word is with God but not necessarily actually God. That gets precluded with the explicit statement the word was God. Furthermore, there is a context to the preamble of John's gospel that is either unknown or ignored by many (if not most) Bible scholars. John is quoting Philo!!! During the intertestamental period Judaism was greatly influenced by the Greek philosophies. John is the most Jewish of the New Testament writers and his gospel, letters, and revelation are among the most critical of Judaism texts in the Bible. John's gospel contains repeated criticisms of Hellenism that would have been recognized by his first century audience but are completely forgotten, neglected, or deliberately ignored in modern times. One of the important Greek influences came though the Jewish philosopher Philo Judaeus, or Philo of Alexandria. Even where Philo wasn't specifically influenced by Greek philosophers (like the Plato, Pythagoras, or the Stoics), he was influenced by the Alexandrian Schools of his day. In ancient times the philosophies and mythologies of those times held to a variety of ideas that we've long discarded and because of that discarding the common person is unaware of the ancient world views, institutions, and thought structures. Of chief importance to this topic if the idea of deity. In ancient times there were many gods and the gods sometimes copulated with humans and produced hybrid god-human beings. Hercules is an example of this demi-god person with whom most of us are familiar. What is important to understand is this: gods are gods and not human. Humans are human and not gods. A god cannot, does not, and will not ever become human and it is not possible for any human ever to literally become a god. So when we read of a Roman General or a Roman Caesar becoming God, that does not men God in the way we construe that in modern times due to Judeo-Christian monotheism. In the polytheistic mythology of ancient times any great human who accomplished a noble, heroic, great task could be deified. Caesars were made gods, but no Caesar was made God. The Greeks and Romans did not believe in one all powerful, mono, bog-G God. NOTHING ANYONE HERE EVER READS ABOUT ANCIENT TIMES SHOULD EVER BE READ AS ASSERTING A MONOTHEISTIC ALMIGHTY GOD!!!!!! It is ALWAYS a mistake to think that is what is being communicated in ancient sources. The Greeks, Romans and surrounding Mediterranean cultures were NOT monotheistic. What deification meant in ancient times was a human was "promoted" to live in the Elysian Fields at the foot of Mount Olympus. Normally, when a person died, they went to the underworld, the realm ruled by Hades or Pluto (Osirus, Nergal, Mot, etc.). If a person did something great, noble, and victorious then he received the privilege to live with the gods on the plains at the foot of the mountain where the gods lived. In other words, being deified did NOT make a human a God. It did not literally make them a god, either. It simply meant they were recognized by the gods as an exceptional human being because the ontological divide between god and man was impossible to cross. The two are completely different beings. Not apples and oranges. Apples and coal. For the Hellenist philosophers of his day "logos" mean Reason, and Reason was the mediator between God and humans. Reason was a gift from the God, a gift by which humans were elevated above the rest of the creaturely world, a gift by which humans possessed a faculty of the gods other animals did not possess. This gift of reason, according to Philo, was present in more plentifully, more powerfully in notable people like Abraham or Moses. These men were mediators between the gods and men, and in the case of Philo's Judaism, God and Man. However, the greatest of these mediators was Alexander the Great. One must understand there was complete silence after Malachi. God was silent. In the ancient Mediterranean cultures Greece progressed where Israel stopped. Within Judaism/Israel God had judged Israel and was silent until He decided to return to fulfill His promises and to everyone outside of Israel the Greeks were the pinnacle of Divine Providence. The Greek views eventually bled into Jewish thinking. Alexander was universally recognized as THE greatest man to have ever existed. Here's what Philo wrote about him, "To his Logos, his chief messenger, highest in age and honor, the Father of all has given the special prerogative to stand on the border and separate the creature from the Creator. This same Logos both pleads with the Immortal as Suppliant for the afflicted and acts as ambassador of the ruler to the subject. He glories in this prerogative and proudly describes it in these words: 'I stood between the LORD and you." I trust the readers can see for themselves the similarities between Philo and John (and Paul) and the implications of John in comparison: where everyone knew Alexander, the logos of God, was only a man..... the logos that is Jesus is God. Unlike Alexander, Jesus was with God in the beginning and, unlike Alexander, that logos that is Jesus is God. lacking the context of Philo, treating John's words as stand-alone words absent their quoted, religious, philosophic, and cultural context the preamble to his gospel is up for interpretation. When the background is known it precludes any and all interpretation that ignores the simultaneously stated "with" and "is." The Logos is God. Jesus is the Logos made flesh. Jesus is God. Jesus is not a specially endowed otherwise ordinary human. There were lots of specially endowed humans thought to have existed in ancient times. Jesus is not one of many logoi from the gods; he is the ONLY logos that is God. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2022 13:32:50 GMT -8
I ask all trinitarians to re-examine Hebrew 1:3, for it has no room, and eliminates any second, separate and distinct person. Except it does do any such thing. It would be best not to proof-text one verse (removing it from its surrounding text to treat it as if it speaks definitively on the matter apart from all else), but here's what the verse states, Hebrews 1:3 NAS
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Hebrews 1:3 KJV
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 1:3 ESV
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Hebrews 1:3 Greek Transliterationwho being the radiance of glory and exact expression of substance of him upholding then all things by the word by the power through of himself purification of sins having made sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high
One thing we can see immediately is that the KJV is not, in this instance, the best English translation from which to work. None of the three just quoted are perfect, but the NAS is the most accurate translation of the Greek manuscripts, and, in this case, there isn't significant difference between the Textus Receptus and the Majority Text. The NAS has been faithful to the Greek. Now it appears issue is taken with the Greek word, " charakter," from which the NAS gets, " exact representation," the KJV gets, " express image," and the ESV gets " exact imprint." The problem is the Greek " characketer" does not stand alone. It is explicitly qualified by the Greek term " hypostaseos." Therefore, the ESV has done a slightly better job than the NAS when it used "substance" but what it left out is the " hypo~" aspect. The prefix " hypo" means " under." The word, " charackter," is normally a noun. It indicates a tool used for engraving. This is why the words " image" or " imprint" are used. The English should state something to the effect of, " Jesus is the engraving of God's underlying substance." That, of course, would not in and of itself solve the problem in this debate because no one should think one single verse is sufficient to define Jesus ontologically. When we put Hebrews 1:3 and John 1 together, though, what we have is the logos of God that is the engraving of God's underlying substance.... that IS God and it was made flesh. This would imply it/he wasn't flesh prior to having been made flesh, but that's not the specific point of dissent in this thread and even if it were a point of dispute the scriptures are very clear: Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. And at the risk of dropping a point of contention into the conversation.... nowhere does the Bible state Mary contributed sinful human genetic material to Jesus' conception!!! Tradition, not scripture, has held the " seed of a woman" is a reference to a female's ovum, but nowhere does scripture ever say such a thing. That is a hold-over from Roman Catholicism. What scripture plainly states is Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirt, not the Holy Spirit and an ovum from Mary. To infer (or assume) Mary contributed a human ovum is problematic because Mary was sinful. This is why the Roman Catholic doctrine of Mary's grace was developed. Otherwise, the necessary implication would be that God used a sinner's ovum to create a sinless man who knew no sin. That is a problem. The human ovum position presents problems scripturally, theologically, and logically. Whereas if it is true that God conceived Jesus solely by the Holy Spirit and Mary was the vessel by which the logos that is God was made flesh then..... Jesus IS God. Remember: God can make a human from dust, and God can make a human from a bone, and God can make a human from rocks. Those who are having a gut response to "God can't do that," should consider these things. |
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Post by civic on Dec 11, 2022 6:16:16 GMT -8
Except it does do any such thing. It would be best not to proof-text one verse (removing it from its surrounding text to treat it as if it speaks definitively on the matter apart from all else), but here's what the verse states, Hebrews 1:3 NAS
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Hebrews 1:3 KJV
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 1:3 ESV
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Hebrews 1:3 Greek Transliterationwho being the radiance of glory and exact expression of substance of him upholding then all things by the word by the power through of himself purification of sins having made sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high
One thing we can see immediately is that the KJV is not, in this instance, the best English translation from which to work. None of the three just quoted are perfect, but the NAS is the most accurate translation of the Greek manuscripts, and, in this case, there isn't significant difference between the Textus Receptus and the Majority Text. The NAS has been faithful to the Greek. Now it appears issue is taken with the Greek word, " charakter," from which the NAS gets, " exact representation," the KJV gets, " express image," and the ESV gets " exact imprint." The problem is the Greek " characketer" does not stand alone. It is explicitly qualified by the Greek term " hypostaseos." Therefore, the ESV has done a slightly better job than the NAS when it used "substance" but what it left out is the " hypo~" aspect. The prefix " hypo" means " under." The word, " charackter," is normally a noun. It indicates a tool used for engraving. This is why the words " image" or " imprint" are used. The English should state something to the effect of, " Jesus is the engraving of God's underlying substance." That, of course, would not in and of itself solve the problem in this debate because no one should think one single verse is sufficient to define Jesus ontologically. When we put Hebrews 1:3 and John 1 together, though, what we have is the logos of God that is the engraving of God's underlying substance.... that IS God and it was made flesh. This would imply it/he wasn't flesh prior to having been made flesh, but that's not the specific point of dissent in this thread and even if it were a point of dispute the scriptures are very clear: Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. And at the risk of dropping a point of contention into the conversation.... nowhere does the Bible state Mary contributed sinful human genetic material to Jesus' conception!!! Tradition, not scripture, has held the " seed of a woman" is a reference to a female's ovum, but nowhere does scripture ever say such a thing. That is a hold-over from Roman Catholicism. What scripture plainly states is Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirt, not the Holy Spirit and an ovum from Mary. To infer (or assume) Mary contributed a human ovum is problematic because Mary was sinful. This is why the Roman Catholic doctrine of Mary's grace was developed. Otherwise, the necessary implication would be that God used a sinner's ovum to create a sinless man who knew no sin. That is a problem. The human ovum position presents problems scripturally, theologically, and logically. Whereas if it is true that God conceived Jesus solely by the Holy Spirit and Mary was the vessel by which the logos that is God was made flesh then..... Jesus IS God. Remember: God can make a human from dust, and God can make a human from a bone, and God can make a human from rocks. Those who are having a gut response to "God can't do that," should consider these things. Well said ! |
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