Making Disciples

I have both participated as a disciplee, a peer and been involved in leading small groups. Various congregations have called them "home groups, "cell" groups, "life" groups, and other labels but they're all designed feed people spiritually and develop or maintain their practice of the faith. I've worked with men's groups and with many men individually as both discipler, mentor, or in my professional capacity as a counselor for most of my 40 years as a Christian. Either I, individually or in conjunction with a pastor, and my wife and I as a couple have also mentored a few couples, which invariably entails an emphasis on the husband. 

Yes, I have used plenty of books aside from the Bible, some of them worth the read and some of them not worth the paper upon which they were written (I say that in some cases sincerely, and in other cases with hyperbole). I've used books by A. W. Tozer, Watchman Nee, James Dobson, Gene Getz, Gary Smalley, Les Carter, Jim Putnam, Donald Whitney, Promise Keepers, and others but I currently use four or five books that are read in progression, discussed, and applied to the needs and circumstances of the individual being discipled/mentored. On occasion I'll use a secular book. However, the most powerful tool in discipling or mentoring a person is the relationship itself. 

Working in groups necessarily involves working with more than one person at a time. Working with married men sometimes includes hearing from or working with a spouse or parent on behalf of the individual being discipled. It can be challenging discipling more than one person because of the time commitment and the spiritual and emotional demands. What we call in the mental health profession, "compassion fatigue" is a real thing. Time spent with a man in need is time not spent with wife or child so work at home and stewardship skills are necessary. 

I've worked with individuals anywhere from a few months to four, maybe five, years. I'm still being mentored at age 63. I have purposed from very early on in my faith walk to make sure I am always in relationship with those to whom I can and should learn or submit, those who can walk beside me and from whom I can learn as we go through the circumstances of life together, and those younger or less mature into whom I can pour my knowledge, wisdom, and experience to help them do the same with others in their life. 

Yep. I turn 64 next month and got saved in '84. 

Can't wait. 

One of the biggest problems I've seen over the years is men not knowing what is "manhood," and thereby having deficits in their ability to set an example and teach correctly. The chief consequence leads to another problem: the problem of creating others in our own (lacking) image. Last year I attended a series run in one of the churches out of which I work and the series covered the "archetypes" of men (or masculinity), but it was missing one of the core types. It taught king, warrior, lover, friend. I won't yet state the type missing because I'm curious how many readers know it (I'll wager everyone here will get it). I spoke with the pastor and offered to present the missing component to the group only to receive silence. 

So I'm curious how you (and anyone else willing to volunteer a response) address the problem of defining manhood or masculinity monolithically and recreating the problem to be solved under the auspices of discipleship or mentoring. 

Yes, I have read both and had the privilege of meeting Mark when he was a guest speaker at our church. His main focus is on making disciples. No one has been more misrepresented or misunderstood than Jesus Christ. Mark introduces us to the Jesus we find on the pages of Scripture, a Jesus who is irresistible.


Here's a review that my senior pastor gave to "The problem of Jesus." 

Larry Osborne, pastor and author, North Coast Church:
Mark provides proper context and evidence for all of us to see and understand the real Jesus in his day and ours. I’m more inspired than ever to follow the Jesus of the Scriptures!

I'm glad you've actually read the book. I recently had a book recommended to me the recommender had himself not read (apparently not seeing a problem with such a recommendation, either).

The rest, however, sounds like propaganda. 

Here's why: 

This is certainly true, but how is that relevant other than to visit the problem upon us? If Christ is misunderstood, then that poses a problem for disciplers: do they adequately understand Jesus so as not to misrepresent him to those they disciple? How would the disciplee know who understands and who misunderstands? How would those holding disciplers accountable measure those men and their work?

Jesus introduces us to the Jesus found in scripture. That statement borders on Mark or you elevating Mark to a position or arbitrating Jesus for us. I assume that is not your intent. There's another problem, too, because Jesus was and is resistible in the ordinary definition of the term. The gospels have several accounts of Jesus being resisted and Jesus teaching about those who resist him. If by "irresistible" you mean inviting or appealing, then that's a correct statement but even that is not whole. Jesus is in fact both inviting and repelling. The very same Jesus who hung on the cross with immeasurable love, mercy, and compassion is the exact same Jesus that will one day return with a sword in his mouth doling out egregious wrath and destruction. 

That will be irresistible . No object of his wrath will be able to avoid it. 

While I can appreciate a witness's anecdotal report... that's all it is: one man's opinion. 

Great. 

But that is not discipleship. I have not met the man but if he has correctly described (and practiced) discipleship then he knows discipleship is first and foremost a relationship AND that is how Jesus modeled it. 

Good. 

That is one of the main goals of discipleship, but you didn't get discipled my Mark Clark from reading a book or having him come speak to your men's gathering for a few days or nights. Assuming Clark's book speaks about what I just posted then your praise, recommendation, and description of the book should be about that. 




Did you know A. W. Tozer was abusive and left his wife destitute? He was a wealthy man but gave his wealth to charity upon his death and nothing to his wife and seven children. His wife reportedly said she was the most lonely she'd ever felt in her marriage, and never felt more loved than in her second marriage. Would any of us want our wives to say that about us? His books are filled with godly wisdom he, apparently, did not himself practice. If he came to our church and spoke we'd all think him amazing (and buy his books), a few of which are excellent sources for discipleship. 

More importantly, since none of us are likely to be discipled by Mark Clark, a better response to my inquiries might explain how his book is op-relevant. 

So, if you're amenable, let's try this again . 

How are Clark's books used in a discipling relationship?

Two sets of related inquiries: 

1) is that what Jesus did as a discipler? is that all he did as a discipler? is teaching the word of God what made hm a discipler or was it something else or more? Please consider the answers to these questions specifically in light of Mark Clark's recommended book.

2) i can find a teacher to teach the word of God in any number of places. Disciplers certainly must teach the word of God, but teachers are not necessary discipler. and teaching s not automatically discipling. So, using content from the recommended Clark book, how might someone avoid the error of mere teaching the word of God and not be discipled or receive discipleship? 

@josheb

Like I posted earlier I like to keep things simple. Jesus made it really simple when he instructed his disciples on how to accomplish the great commission. He said "feed my sheep" as in to teach what he taught, be witnesses of his life, preach repentance and the forgiveness of sin.

Some may think that unless they have a seminary degree or a pastoral position then they do not have the authority to teach people about God’s Word.



But except for Jesus, when anyone teaches God’s Word, it is never the speaker that has the authority anyway, it is God’s Word itself.



So, as soon as we learn what Jesus taught, we can go ahead and teach it to others who can continue to learn it with us. That is discipleship. Jesus never taught that we must be pastors, missionaries, professors, or apologists to make disciples.