Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2022 8:16:48 GMT -8
Dispensationalists Inconsistently Practice Christianity and Their Own Dispensational Premillennialism Positions The result of this inconsistency ends up manifesting itself as a practice of holding to beliefs to which one does not conform. This is observable in many ways, but I'll mention only two for now: 1) the Dispensational hermeneutic requires a literal reading of scripture but that does not happen in practice, and 2) very few if any live as if the Dispensational eschatology is true. The three basic tenets of Dispensational hermeneutic are 1) a distinction between Israel and the Church, 2) a strict literal reading of scripture, and 3) the separation of the rapture from Christ's coming, wherein Christians will be removed from the planet prior to Christ physically living on earth for a literal 1000 years. In addition, While Dispensational Premillennialism does teach God has revealed Himself in the Bible in a progressive manner, Dispensationalism teaches the dispensations are discontinuous, not continuous. One of the core tenets of Dispensationalism is the belief scripture should be read literally. Sometimes this is qualified to say prophecy, not all scripture, is to be read literally. The problems arising from this position are that the rules of correct biblical exegesis have been long-held and well-established and are practiced by nearly everyone in Christendom no matter their respective theology or eschatology or other doctrinal views. Dispensationalism changes the rules. This led the Dispensationalists to ignore centuries of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice. In practice, Dispensationalists do not actually read all scripture literally with much consistency, others who practice literal reading are criticized for doing so, and there is enormous inconsistency between the imminent prognostications constantly being asserted, but rarely do any Dispensationalists act is if their own claims are actually true! They say the world is coming to an end any day now, but they do not actually act as if that is true. The Dispensational Hermeneutic (pdf file) states a word should be “ given the same meaning it would have in normal usage.” This is applied to OT prophecy but not NT prophecy. Neither is it applied to NT renderings of the OT. For example, Dispensationalists take literally the promise of a Davidic throne found in 2 Samuel 7 but they do not take literally Peter’s statements in Acts 2 about that promise. In everyday teaching they use the word “ near” to mean near when they nowadays say, “ The building of the temple is near,” but they do not give God’s use of the word “ near,” in Revelation the same meaning it has in normal usage. The word “ near,” literally mean near in time or space, not " more than 2000 years from now." Understand what I just said: no matter what a person's eschatological point of view may or may not be any person claiming to read scripture literally must read the word "near" to mean "close in time or space." That does not happen in Dispensationalism. No Christian should do that which they report either should not be done or that which they report to disdain. Then there is the problem of living in a manner consistent with the belief the world is going to go to hell and the Church can do nothing about it. Dispensationalism grew out of the restoration movement of the 19th century, and the Plymouth Brethren, and John Darby in particular. One of the common beliefs shared by the restoration movement sects was the belief the Chruch is corrupt and therefore in need of restoration. Hence the name, " restoration movement." This was huge Protestant movement in Europe (mostly England) and America. As such, Catholicism was the chief culprit of the Church's corruption. The Roman Catholic Church (RCC) was considered the antichrist, but the corruption was not limited to the RCC; it had spread to all of the denominational structures within Protestantism, as well. Hence the need for a new, a restored Church, a Church that emulated the Church of the New Testament. The Seventh Day Adventists believed they were the true Church, The Plymouth Brethren believed they were the true Church (until Darby them of corruption, was cast out and formed his own sect he called the Exclusive Brethren), the Campbellites (Church of Christ) believed they were the true Church, the Jehovah's Witnesses believed likewise, as did the Latter-Day Saints. This combined view the Church was corrupt, and the sect was building a New Testament kind of restored Church were common views among these sects. A common belief among the restoration movement sects was the belief Jesus was going to return soon. It was important the Church be restored because Jesus was coming soon. All these sects were also apocalyptic in nature and that has remained the case for most of them to some degree. It is among the most defining features of Dispensational Premillennialism. The problem is very few Dispensationalists live as if Jesus is coming back to rapture them off the planet any day now. Robert Fitzpatrick was a man who spent over $140,000 on billboards and other advertisements to proclaim the gospel leading up to the return of Jesus on May 21, 2011 according to the predictions made by Harold Camping. No matter what anyone here thinks of Camping, Mr. Fitzpatrick acted with integrity; he acted in a manner consistent with his Dispensationalist beliefs. He genuinely believed he was not going to be around to spend his wealth, so he spent it on that which was important to him: the gospel. Scores of people have behaved in like manner due to the Dispensational Premillennialist eschatology they were taught. Hundreds of thousands do not behave with that kind of consistency. If a person truly believes they will be raptured off of the planet next week, next month, next year, within the next decade or two then there is little sense in paying a mortgage, saving money for retirement, or investing in profitability of future stocks. That person will not be around to spend that wealth if what they believe to be true is in fact true. So every single Dispensationalist who believes in a soon-occurring rapture but acts in a manner inconsistent with that belief is acting with hypocrisy. One recent Dispensationalist poster recently told me it would be nice if what he believed did come true.... but we just don't know. Despite 200 years of predictions - the predictions of the leaders - never comes true. Everyone then goes on living as if the teachings are NOT actually true. The paradox of these first two problems, the inconsistency of teaching adherent to read scripture literally and then not doing so, and the inconsistency of teaching an imminent apocalypse but living as if that is the case leads to an enormous irony given these views came out of the restoration movement. There is the added inconsistency prevalent in teaching a restored Church that isn't any better than it ever has been. The inconsistencies of doing nothing about 200 years of false teachings, doing nothing to effect proper change, allowing false teachers to profit enormously off of the false teachings, and causing an explosion of sectarianism that makes the Reformation look sophomoric all go unaddressed. I'll address other inconsistencies as the thread prompts. The problem of doing nothing about false teachers will be the subject of another op on problems within Dispensational Premillennialism. No other theological position has these problems. These are unique to Dispensational Premillennialism. These problems can be seen in every single Christian discussion forum in existence. BAM is new so there aren't that many threads in the prophecy and eschatology boards but that will prove to make the inconsistency of which this op speaks easy to find. These inconsistencies have been practiced by the Dispensationalists in this Dispensational Controversy board where there are now, currently, only six threads. Every single thread shows the kind of inconsistencies mentioned here. Anyone who is a Dispensationalist wanting to respond to this op with dissent had better use scripture literally, live in a manner consistent with his belief he's not going to be around long, live an impeccable life in an impeccable congregation in an impeccable sect or denomination, and actively speak out against the problems of inconsistency with Dispensational Premillennialism. Otherwise, you are part of the problem to be solved.
|
|
genez
Full Member
Posts: 130
|
Post by genez on Oct 28, 2022 17:23:58 GMT -8
Controversy must be expected in Christianity when it comes to seeking to overcome resistance to the Truth that must be learned. Dispensationalism must have opposition if its an essential doctrine leading to maturity in Christ. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph 6:12 Having conflicting positions with resistance is a part of a process God has decreed for the body of Christ. In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval." 1 Cor 11:18-19 The resistance against the side that has truth will always be self righteous...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2022 7:38:55 GMT -8
Controversy must be expected in Christianity when it comes to seeking to overcome resistance to the Truth that must be learned. Dispensationalism must have opposition if its an essential doctrine leading to maturity in Christ. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph 6:12 Having conflicting positions with resistance is a part of a process God has decreed for the body of Christ. In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval." 1 Cor 11:18-19 The resistance against the side that has truth will always be self righteous...
Yes, and the purpose of my ops on Dispensationalism is to reveal the lack of truth within Dispensationalism. There has been a consistent history of false teachers within Dispensationalism that does not occur within any other theological orientation in frequency, intensity, or duration.... and the implicit arrogance evident by ignoring these problems and creating division everywhere they go hijacking every op in which they post to make it all about their view of the end times. Very few ops in this forum lack that evidence. We can see it many threads in CARM, Christian Forums, Worthy, and a host of other internet discussion boards where Dispensationalists refuse to post topically for the express purpose of posting things that have never been true. No one can say they are for truth and do these things (and more I will get to in other ops). Claiming to believe in truth and behaving these ways is inconsistent.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2022 8:20:41 GMT -8
Dispensationalism must have opposition if its an essential doctrine leading to maturity in Christ.. .This sentence is worth noting because the essential truth of Dispensationalism is not maturity in Christ. I can provide quotes from Dispensationalist leaders affirming Dispensationalism's move away from soteriology as a core doctrine of the faith in place of their emphasis on ecclesiology and eschatology. Not only does Dispensationalism willfully and openly emphasize ecclesiology and eschatology over soteriology (claiming to hold to the same soteriology as everyone else when that is not true), it's ecclesiology and eschatology is radically different than everyone else's and, in some places, so radically different that if what Dispensationalism asserts is correct then Christianity has been false from its inception!!!!! For example, Dispensationalist ecclesiology starts with the belief the Church is corrupt! In other words, the Dispensationalists view is NOT that the body of Christ has within it corruption. No, the Dispensationalist view is the Church, the body of Christ itself, is as a whole corrupt. It is so corrupt that restoration of the Church requires complete separation from everything and everyone in the corrupt-Church (not the corrupted parts of the Church) and adherence to their positions and practices. In other words, the only way a person professing Christ can be a member of the Church is to follow Dispensationalism! John Piper Timothy Keller Greg Bahnsen Sinclair Ferguson Those are just a few of the names of Christians who would not be allowed to join or be members of a Dispensationalist congregation. According to the Bible, the only requirement for membership in the Church, the ecclesia, is a belief in Jesus as one's Lord, Savior, and Redeemer from sin. Maturity in Christ is not possible when extra-biblical doctrines are required to be a member of their church. Point of clarification: differences, divisions, and divisiveness are not synonymous and should not be treated as identical conditions.
|
|
genez
Full Member
Posts: 130
|
Post by genez on Nov 14, 2022 18:36:08 GMT -8
Dispensationalism must have opposition if its an essential doctrine leading to maturity in Christ.. .This sentence is worth noting because the essential truth of Dispensationalism is not maturity in Christ. I can provide quotes from Dispensationalist leaders affirming Dispensationalism's move away from soteriology as a core doctrine of the faith in place of their emphasis on ecclesiology and eschatology. Not only does Dispensationalism willfully and openly emphasize ecclesiology and eschatology over soteriology (claiming to hold to the same soteriology as everyone else when that is not true), it's ecclesiology and eschatology is radically different than everyone else's and, in some places, so radically different that if what Dispensationalism asserts is correct then Christianity has been false from its inception!!!!! Doing a right concept wrongly, does not make the concept wrong. Someone proposing bad soteriology does not negate soteriology.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2022 9:17:21 GMT -8
This sentence is worth noting because the essential truth of Dispensationalism is not maturity in Christ. I can provide quotes from Dispensationalist leaders affirming Dispensationalism's move away from soteriology as a core doctrine of the faith in place of their emphasis on ecclesiology and eschatology. Not only does Dispensationalism willfully and openly emphasize ecclesiology and eschatology over soteriology (claiming to hold to the same soteriology as everyone else when that is not true), it's ecclesiology and eschatology is radically different than everyone else's and, in some places, so radically different that if what Dispensationalism asserts is correct then Christianity has been false from its inception!!!!! Doing a right concept wrongly, does not make the concept wrong. It has yet to be proven Dispensationalism does dispensations correctly. That is the point! Dispensationalism is a radically different theology. It is so different that if what it asserts is true then 2000 years of Christianity is wrong. The means Christianity has always been wrong, and a paradox is created: Dispensational Christianity is built on a religion that has never been correct! It cannot be had both ways. Not only is Dispensationalism radically different and irreconcilable in many ways with historic Christianity, but it leads to Christians practicing their faith consistently and, in some cases, so inconsistently that it proves hypocritical or even dissociative. I list six significant problems with Dispensationalism and in future ops I will elaborate on how Dispensationalism repeatedly propagates false teachers, how the entire system has lacked both internal and external accountability for the entirety of its 200 years of existence, and fundamentally changes or holds to completely different long held and well-established core doctrines (such as Christology, soteriology, and ecclesiology). In a sentence Dispensationalism does dispensationalism badly. I completely agree but it can mean the religion they teach is heresy. JWs teach a bad soteriology. The LDS teach a bad soteriology. Dispensationalists teach bad soteriology and I will expound more on that in my op on the compromising of core Christian doctrines. For now.... Because it overlaps with the matter of inconsistency.... Dispensationalism claims to teach salvation by grace, through faith, having been created in Christ for good works, in accordance with Ephesians 2:5-10. BUT Dispensationalism ALSO teaches God has two purposes for two different peoples and therefore two different plans. This ends up compromising the core doctrine of Christian soteriology because while Dispensationalism teaches anyone can come to God anytime for salvation by professing faith in Christ, Dispensationalism ALSO teaches the Jews are going to have to go through a series of events before they are brought to salvation in Christ. The list of events varies but typically includes the restoration of geographic boundaries, the reconstitution of the Levitical order, the building of another temple, the reinstitution of the Mosaic Law, including animal sacrifices, the suffering of the tribulation that many say will kill a third of all Jews, and Jesus literally living physically on the planet for 1000 years. These events, or some mixture of these events, are required before salvation is brought to Israel. Not only does this obliterate the doctrine of imminence, but it's a works-based salvation! The end result is that Dispensationalism teaches two paths to salvation, one based on an anytime confession of faith and the other based on a series of efforts by men, or works. This is further problematic because many of these things are revealed in the New Testament to have either been fulfilled, done away with, or progressively changed such that returning to the old would be sin. In other words, the kind of works-based inescapably implicit in requiring Jews to do a bunch of works before they will be brought to salvific faith in Christ are sinful. The soteriology implicitly asserts a return to sin as a means of salvation. I suspect many readers' jaws are hanging slack and eyes are rolling. Stop it. Think about what I just posted in light of what Dispensationalism openly teaches. Jesus CANNOT return any time now if a temple has to first be built. They have predicated the return of Christ upon the work of Jewish (unregenerate) hands. That's not my personal opinion. That is a fact of Dispensational Premillennialism. It should give EVERYONE pause. It should give the Dispensationalist pause and it should give the non-Dispensationalist pause. Anyone who is a Dispensationalist has two options: work within the system to correct this problem or walk away from this thoroughly misguided theology. Anything else in inconsistence. That is the point of this op. Dispensationalists practice Christianity inconsistently and they do so in many, many ways. No one should be preaching and imminent rapture if they don't live a life consistent with that belief. No one should be preaching an imminent return of Christ if we're all waiting on the restoration of Israel, a new temple, and 14 million animal sacrifices every day. No one should be preaching works-based salvation while claiming to be a Christian. Red herring. No one has even remotely implied the concept of "dispensation," or the correct doctrine of salvation is wrong. This op is solely about the inconsistency of Dispensationalists to practice Christianity. This op evidences this inconsistency many ways, one of which is by showing how Dispensationalism teaches many things wrong and no one in Dispensationalism does anything about it and if what it teaches is correct then they're either not living out those beliefs with much consistency. Nothing more. When Dispensationalists start posting in this thread, they are going to pick their pet positions to assert, and they are going to do it in complete neglect of the op's topic, and I will simply point to the propensity of Dispensationalists to ignore a threads topic and post whatever they like as an example of inconsistent living. And this will happen even though I just let everyone know! In most cases it does not appear they can help themselves. As far as your contributions to this thread go, you've indirectly noted three areas of inconsistency within Dispensationalism: the lack of truth, the divisive nature of Dispensationalism (in both content and practice), and the problem of arguing fallacy without one's conscience being piqued (or if piqued, then doing nothing to correct it). Perhaps that wasn't the intent, but that is what has happened. So, before we proceed, perhaps you might share with me and the lurkers where you fit in regard to Dispensationalism. Dispensationalist? Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib? Not Dispy? Historicist? Amil? Postmil? Idealist? Let me know.
|
|
genez
Full Member
Posts: 130
|
Post by genez on Nov 15, 2022 10:47:45 GMT -8
It has yet to be proven Dispensationalism does dispensations correctly. That is the point!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2022 11:37:37 GMT -8
You need to get out more and finally find one of the few good teachers. Otherwise? This getting to be dumb. This post was reported for petty bickering and off-topic personal attacks ( rules 1b, 1c, and 1d of the forum's rules of conduct). Thank you for your time. I appreciate the evidence proving the op correct. I'm disappointed proper decorum and topical discourse couldn't (or wouldn't) be maintained. In the future, anytime an impulse to leave a thread is felt then just do so. Silence is all that is needed. Snotty comments prove this op correct. If you change your mind and decide a conversation about the inconsistencies living out Christianity from within Dispensationalism is a conversation in which you can participate, then please return. That goes for any and all considering discussing this topic, whether Dispensationalist or not. Happy to have you contribute. I ask simply that manners and respect be applied. Just because a thought occurs does not mean it should come out of our mouth. Well, genez, I have read most of what Watts, Darby, Scofield, Chaffer, Pentecost, Ryrie, Graham, Walvoord, Smith, Lindsay, LaHaye, Ice, Jeremiah, Cahn, Vlach, Blaising, Bock, Lester and other leading Dispensationalists have written. I also listen to Dispensationalist teachers on the radio throughout the day. It is because I am a former Dispensationalist Premillennialist who HAS read a lot about Dispensationalism from the Dispensationalists themselves, that I can and do post these ops. Wouldn't it be beneficial to recommend someone considered to be a " good teacher," rather to than to assume and insinuate a person hasn't already read, and post snotty comments proving an inconsistent faith walk? Keep the posts about the posts, not the posters.
|
|
genez
Full Member
Posts: 130
|
Post by genez on Nov 15, 2022 13:02:34 GMT -8
You need to get out more and finally find one of the few good teachers. Otherwise? This getting to be dumb. This post was reported for petty bickering and off-topic personal attacks ( rules 1b, 1c, and 1d of the forum's rules of conduct). Thank you for your time. I appreciate the evidence proving the op correct. I'm disappointed proper decorum and topical discourse couldn't (or wouldn't) be maintained. In the future, anytime an impulse to leave a thread is felt then just do so. Silence is all that is needed. Snotty comments prove this op correct. If you change your mind and decide a conversation about the inconsistencies living out Christianity from within Dispensationalism is a conversation in which you can participate, then please return. That goes for any and all considering discussing this topic, whether Dispensationalist or not. Happy to have you contribute. I ask simply that manners and respect be applied. Just because a thought occurs does not mean it should come out of our mouth. Well, genez, I have read most of what Watts, Darby, Scofield, Chaffer, Pentecost, Ryrie, Graham, Walvoord, Smith, Lindsay, LaHaye, Ice, Jeremiah, Cahn, Vlach, Blaising, Bock, Lester and other leading Dispensationalists have written. I also listen to Dispensationalist teachers on the radio throughout the day. It is because I am a former Dispensationalist Premillennialist who HAS read a lot about Dispensationalism from the Dispensationalists themselves, that I can and do post these ops. Wouldn't it be beneficial to recommend someone considered to be a " good teacher," rather to than to assume and insinuate a person hasn't already read, and post snotty comments proving an inconsistent faith walk? Keep the posts about the posts, not the posters.
Look... you come here after reading many books that others may have not.
We have no way to refute you on the basis of what was said in those books. We don't even know if you understood them or not. Nor, can we know what they said. You give us nothing to think with in that case.
That is why I called it dumb. Not you! The argument. One based upon hearsay.
Why argue in that case? Actually, I would be the one who would be dumb to try.
|
|
genez
Full Member
Posts: 130
|
Post by genez on Nov 15, 2022 13:14:08 GMT -8
Well, genez, I have read most of what Watts, Darby, Scofield, Chaffer, Pentecost, Ryrie, Graham, Walvoord, Smith, Lindsay, LaHaye, Ice, Jeremiah, Cahn, Vlach, Blaising, Bock, Lester and other leading Dispensationalists have written. I also listen to Dispensationalist teachers on the radio throughout the day. It is because I am a former Dispensationalist Premillennialist who HAS read a lot about Dispensationalism from the Dispensationalists themselves, that I can and do post these ops. Do you believe that those in the Church should live the same as the Jews did under the Law of Moses?
That what God has established as to what is to govern our lives as being one and the same? And, that before the Church age, the issue of the spiritual man in his function has remained the same?
|
|
JDS
New Member
Posts: 48
|
Post by JDS on Nov 15, 2022 13:15:38 GMT -8
Dispensationalism must have opposition if its an essential doctrine leading to maturity in Christ.. . 1) For example, Dispensationalist ecclesiology starts with the belief the Church is corrupt! 2) . In other words, the only way a person professing Christ can be a member of the Church is to follow Dispensationalism! 3) And that following requires a belief in the Dispensationalist eschatology. Item #1 Nobody I know believes and teaches that the church of Jesus Christ, which is defined as his body and his bride, is corrupt. Those who are in this body are placed there by the Spirit of God and only those who have had their sins washed away in the blood of Christ are baptized (immersed) into his body. Also, the Spirit of God dwells in the mortal body of the believer in Jesus Christ and in this manner both things following are true. Jesus Christ is in the believer and the believer is in Jesus Christ. In this manner the believer is in the image of Jesus Christ, possessing an eternal soul, which is given him of God at his physical conception and will determine his unique personality, a body, which he received from Adam through a woman, the physical part of man that gives him world interaction, and for the believer in the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Spirit of Christ, whose presence in his body is both the righteousness of Christ and the life of God. The trinitarian image of man is renewed through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ, who was not born of Adam through the woman, but of God through the woman and identifies with man, and by the Spirit at his resurrection, identifying with God, by being the "firstborn" from the dead, and is without sin and in possession of this trinitarian image from his conception in her womb. The purpose of God in this age is to form this body and bride of Christ and make them one. The gift of the Spirit indwelling the believer in Jesus Christ is the agent that washes the sin away by the blood of Christ and renews him to the trinitarian image that was lost by Adam. Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, an d the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, When we receive the new body at the rapture, we will have had every connection with Adam severed and the collective church will be "one new man." This is the blessed hope. To suggest that we who are dispensationalists would teach that the church of Jesus Christ is corrupt is over the top. Item #2 Dispensationalism has nothing to do with how one gets into Christ. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation. God says he will save anyone and everyone who believes the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is his death, burial, and resurrection. I believe that. It is how I was saved. I believe God. Item #3 I do not doubt the salvation of cultists because they do not believe in dispensationalism. I doubt them when they pervert the gospel of Christ whether they are dispensationalists or not.
|
|
genez
Full Member
Posts: 130
|
Post by genez on Nov 16, 2022 4:47:59 GMT -8
Dispensationalism must have opposition if its an essential doctrine leading to maturity in Christ.. .And that following requires a belief in the Dispensationalist eschatology. Os Guinness John Piper Timothy Keller Greg Bahnsen Sinclair Ferguson Those are just a few of the names of Christians who would not be allowed to join or be members of a Dispensationalist congregation. If you are really interested in searching for the truth.... this should be a good and helpful read.
He was the president and founder of the Dallas Theological Seminary.
Dispensationalism was not developed as a theology when a good number of the folks you cite were alive. Luther was fighting to overcome the oppressive corruption of Rome. And, another aspect to consider. Israel was not seen as a nation when many you cited were developing their theology. For 2000 years it looked like Israel was to no longer be a people with a nation. Time to reconsider.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2022 7:28:54 GMT -8
This post was reported for petty bickering and off-topic personal attacks ( rules 1b, 1c, and 1d of the forum's rules of conduct). Thank you for your time. I appreciate the evidence proving the op correct. I'm disappointed proper decorum and topical discourse couldn't (or wouldn't) be maintained. In the future, anytime an impulse to leave a thread is felt then just do so. Silence is all that is needed. Snotty comments prove this op correct. If you change your mind and decide a conversation about the inconsistencies living out Christianity from within Dispensationalism is a conversation in which you can participate, then please return. That goes for any and all considering discussing this topic, whether Dispensationalist or not. Happy to have you contribute. I ask simply that manners and respect be applied. Just because a thought occurs does not mean it should come out of our mouth. Well, genez, I have read most of what Watts, Darby, Scofield, Chaffer, Pentecost, Ryrie, Graham, Walvoord, Smith, Lindsay, LaHaye, Ice, Jeremiah, Cahn, Vlach, Blaising, Bock, Lester and other leading Dispensationalists have written. I also listen to Dispensationalist teachers on the radio throughout the day. It is because I am a former Dispensationalist Premillennialist who HAS read a lot about Dispensationalism from the Dispensationalists themselves, that I can and do post these ops. Wouldn't it be beneficial to recommend someone considered to be a " good teacher," rather to than to assume and insinuate a person hasn't already read, and post snotty comments proving an inconsistent faith walk? Keep the posts about the posts, not the posters. Look... you come here after reading many books that others may have not.
We have no way to refute you on the basis of what was said in those books. We don't even know if you understood them or not. Nor, can we know what they said. You give us nothing to think with in that case.
That is why I called it dumb. Not you! The argument. One based upon hearsay.
Why argue in that case? Actually, I would be the one who would be dumb to try.
All of which means I can be engaged in conversation so the reader can find out what those books say, whether I understood what was read, whether this op should and can be refuted. Calling things, " dumb" is ungodly, and a violation of this forum's tou with which you covenanted. Consider your own posts. If you do not know what I have read, are not familiar with that content, do not know whether or not I understand it correctly then upon what basis would the argument be called dumb? No, genez, you screwed up. Why argue in that case? Well, first off, you've changed the matter from discussion to arguing. Nice, subtle insertion of a false equivalence. More directly: Why argue the case? Because these are very real problems, no one in Dispensationalism is doing anything to change them, they lead to a bad witness, and the average Dispensationalist isn't aware these problems exist. That's why. And I can prove it to anyone willing to discuss these matters and look objectively at the evidence. Many of the non-Dispies in Christian forums used to be Dispensationalists. We walked away from Dispensationalist because we uncovered these problems. Many of us went to our pastors and elders and asked how these things are to be reconciled with scripture only to be met with a variety of non-answer responses. Some of them were outright derogatory like you were here. Unnecessarily so. We discovered something even more concerning: not only are there very real and substantive problems within Dispensationalism, but our leaders do not have answers. When we spoke up more, we were treated with more derision and disrespect. As you noted earlier, it is good and necessary that divisions among us exist so that those approved by God may be recognized. We recognized Dispensationalists have a hard time with disagreement even though the scriptures tells us to expect it. They call it, " dumb." For your part I commend your ability to separate the person from the argument, but the case is not dumb. These are very real and important problems. If you look at them and decide to walk away from this theology you'll go through the same experience of loss other "expatriates" went through. We'll try to be there for you because being a Christian and learning a pile of what you believe is incorrect can be quite breathtaking. You'll be joining thousands who have walked away knowing there are much better perspective that more consistently reconcile with the whole of scripture. Completely false. I can evidence everything I post. I can evidence everything I post using Dispensationalists' own words. ANY poster here in BAM can go to ANY Prophesy or End Times/ Eschatology board in ANY Christian forum and find Dispensationalists making predictions about what they believe are soon-occurring events. That's not hearsay; that is evidence. There are four links proving this is not hearsay. Now, the reader will either make excuses and attempt to dismiss that evidence or s/he will engage and discuss it. No other theology has this problem!!!!! It is a problem unique to Dispensational Premillennialism and no one within Dispensationalism does anything about it. In the vast majority of those threads Dispensationalists should be encouraging, exhorting, and correcting their fellow Dispensationalists NOT to make claims they do not know are true. In other words, Dispensationalists should be joining non-Dispensationalists for the benefit of the whole body of Christ to reduce the occasions when Christian prove to be false teachers. But that is not what Dispensationalists do. They divide and call these matters dumb. And ANYONE who has any questions specifically about something I specifically posted they think is hearsay can ask me to evidence my claim. That would be much better than a dismissive, " That's dumb." LOL! OFF-TOPIC! You are doing exactly what I said Dispensationalists would do to evidence their inconsistency. You are trying to change the topic AND you are doing this despite the fact you and I just had this discussion in another thread where the scriptures were posted demonstrating the Dispensationalist division of Israel and the Church is inconsistent with the New Testament's newer revelation and you proved incapable of providing a single scripture stating those things were dispensations.... because there are no such scriptures. Your response was the classic non sequitur, " Just because it's not stated explicitly does not mean it's true." That is a dumb argument. It demonstrates the inconsistency within Dispensationalism. So does the near-constant practice of Dispensationalists at attempting sabotage of every thread they enjoin by the practice of changing the topic. Dispensationalists cannot consistently stay on topic! It's not hearsay; you just proved it! You best play is to post in a manner consistent with what you claim you believe. That is the ONLY way to refute this op. What's needed is just one Dispensationalist who has integrity in thought, word, and deed with whole scripture and historical Christianity. Can you be that guy? I'm rooting for you because I would love to find one Dispensationalist who with integrity. I just got done telling you I have already read Chafer. Is this more evidence of Dispensationalist inconsistency? Have you been reading the posts but not actually reading them and then calling the whole thing dumb? What is consistent about that? If you go to this thread HERE, you'll see where I quoted Chafer (and Darby, Ryrie, Vlach, and Ice). I have read them all! You should NOT have assumed otherwise. When I first learned the teachings of Dispensationalism were flawed, I began some due diligence. I couldn't find answers among the notables I knew (and I used to know Chuck Smith, John Walvoord, Jack Hayford, and Tim Lahaye). I've talked face to face or over the phone with Dispensationalist pastors from Washington State and California to a variety up and down the eastern seaboard. All great people leading congregations of people earnestly seeking to follow Christ through the enabling of the Holy Spirit. But unable to address these very real, significant, and recurring problems within Dispensationalism. Note this: in that other thread on the newness and difference of Dispensationalism there was a poster, like you, who questioned the evidence. The roots of Dispensationalism in Darby were denied. He openly stated I had no evidence. So, even though I should NOT have had to post that evidence because it is something every Dispensationalist in an internet discussion board should already know, I quoted the Dispensationalists themselves openly, explicitly, specifically citing Darby as the basis for their theology. Did that poster bow to the evidence? God read the thread to find out. Did that poster even acknowledge the evidence? Read the thread. EVERYONE will find the poster tried to change the topic and do what you just did. It is evidence of Dispensationalists practicing their faith inconsistently. It is NOT hearsay. It's a very real problem and Dispensationalists should look it in the face, resolve to do better, and make real changes in their thinking, doctrines, and practices. For the sake of God and all that is holy please learn how to stay on topic in a thread! I can evidence Dispensationalists living inconsistently. Can you look at the evidence? If so, then do so. If not, then just walk away from the thread. If you're not willing to look at the evidence, then there's no reason for you to participate in the discussion and silence would demonstrate integrity. genez, I have studied Dispensationalism from it's early influences (like Watts) all the way through Darby and Scofield (they had differences) right on up to the contemporary writers like Vlach and Bock. I have studied 19th century Church history and its influences going as far back as Wesley. I have read the ECFs many times over AND done a specific study of how often and how they used the term " dispensation." I have read many critics of Dispensationalism, but I first read the Dispensationalists in their own words. I have done my homework. I am not some jerk dropping into a forum to flame others. Now..... I have provided several examples of Dispensationalist inconsistency. I can provide many more examples. Acknowledge the evidence (even if you think it meager). Pick an example and discuss it op-relevantly. Or walk away. Please do not troll.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2022 7:30:52 GMT -8
And that following requires a belief in the Dispensationalist eschatology. Clement Ignatius Polycarp Justin Martyr Irenaeus Basil Origen Gregory Ambrose Augustine...................... Those are just a few of the names of Christians who would not be allowed to join or be members of a Dispensationalist congregation. If you are really interested in searching for the truth.... this should be a good and helpful read.
He was the president and founder of the Dallas Theological Seminary.
.
Have you read it?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2022 8:09:15 GMT -8
1) For example, Dispensationalist ecclesiology starts with the belief the Church is corrupt! 2) . In other words, the only way a person professing Christ can be a member of the Church is to follow Dispensationalism! 3) And that following requires a belief in the Dispensationalist eschatology. Item #1 Nobody I know believes and teaches that the church of Jesus Christ, which is defined as his body and his bride, is corrupt. First, your personal anecdotal experience is not a rational argument. I could just as easily say every Dispensationalist I know believes. Second, and more germane to this op, this was one of the core tenets of Dispensationalism. Our brother in Christ, genez, unnecessarily recommended I read Chafer's book, " Dispensationalism," the very book I encouraged you to read. Dispensationalism came out of the restoration movement of the 1800s. It was a fairly sectarian movement that ended up causing an explosion of more denominations and sects, and NOT consolidating the Church. One of the core tenets of the restoration movement, John Darby in particular, was that the Church was corrupt and in need of restoration. Hence the name of the movement! So, any Dispensationalist denying this core belief has just proven....... his inconsistency. He's proved the op, not refuted it! Now to evidence this from someone else besides Darby (because I know how Dispensationalists a reluctant to stand behind or rely on Darby (you in particular ), here's what Chafer once wrote, "The church is ever in peril—and never more so than now—of the disaster which must follow when she allows men of distinction in the sphere of human attainments, who are unregenerate or unspiritual, to dictate as to what her beliefs shall be." He wrote that in his book, " Systematic Theology." In other words, that belief is part of the systematic theology of Dispensational Premillennialism. I can quote a lot of Dispensationalist leaders explicitly stating in various ways the Church is corrupt to prove that point whether anyone you know personally holds that view or not. It's going to be win-win for me because those who acknowledge their belief in the corrupt Church will be living in a manner inconsistent with 2000 years of Christian thinking, doctrine, and practice, and those who disagree with Darby and Chafer (and the others) will only be showing they subscribe to a theology they don now wholly understand and to which they do not wholly subscribe. Either way ot proves to be an example of Dispensational inconsistency AND a kind of inconsistency that does not occur within any other mainstream, orthodox theology. In an article he wrote titled, " Church Which is His Body," after surveying the scriptures on the Church he said, " The outward visible church is not equivalent to 'the church which is his body.' To that imperfect organization these revelations concerning organic union with Christ and perfection in Christ could hardly be applied." It's a fairly good article but does have some important and fatal errors in it where he did NOT render the verses well, but for the purposes of this op his closing statements are hugely inconsistent with his systematic theology and his own article and the whole of scripture. To begin with he cited Matthew 16:18 but failed to render everything else within that truth. There is no mention of the " outward visible church" in scripture, there were many aberrant behaviors in the early church and the epistolary writers treated them as the Church, and if the gates of hell cannot prevail over the Church, then the Church is never in peril. These are huge inconsistencies in Dispensationalism. As a consequence, there are a slew of Dispensationalists all over the internet (including BAM) who constantly speak about the Church's corruption, the look forward to it eschatologically, and are delighted to tell anyone who disagrees they need to read a book, stop reading books, and their arguments are dumb. It is hugely inconsistent. Now, will you acknowledge these facts? Will you acknowledge your personal experience isn't a valid argument? Will you acknowledge Dispensationalism does tach the Church is corrupt (and you just happen to believe that's not true)? Or would you like me to do as I did in the other thread and quote Dispensationalist leaders saying the Church is corrupt? And for the record, JDS, as I said in the other recent thread, if you have differences in your personal beliefs with what Dispensationalism teaches that might very well be a good thing and something I commend (depending on its substance) but it is not evidence refuting the problems within Dispensationalism. I completely understand Dispensationalism, like many other theological schemas, is not monolithic. There's a lot of diversity within Dispensational Premillennialism but that is not the topic of this op. This op is specifically, explicitly and soelely about the inconsistent practices of Dispensationalists. How well do they live out the teachings of Dispensationalism and whatever they may personally believe. I can't get a single Dispensationalist to show me where scripture cites Abraham or Moses as a " dispensation." I can't get a single one of you to acknowledge the practice is a post-canon addition to Christian theology. I cannot get a single one of you to acknowledge the word simply does not occur in scripture as is used by Dispensationalism. It would not hurt anyone to be forthcoming in any of these areas. These are huge inconsistencies. I will attend to the other content of you post when I have time to do so. I have to leave now for work.
|
|