Prophecies and Promises relating to Israel, the Nation

Yes, and it was for them to be a light to the world. Those of Israel who lived by faith did so and those who do not live thusly were divorced, and then destroyed.

NONE of that was a promise to the nation of Israel! None of it was about the nation of Israel.

This is an example of how Dispensationalism twists and pervert scripture to make it say things it does not actually state. That promise was made to Abraham, not the nation of Israel. Just because Israel became a nation does not mean it was the promised nation. Just because it became a notion by God's hand within His purpose does not mean God had a particular purpose or plan for it in lieu of a larger plan applicable to others. The nation of Israel was beneficiary of that promise, not the covenant member of that covenant promise. Furthermore, the New Testament tells us the Christian, the Church is the fulfillment of that promise, intent, and purpose of every single one of those verses. 

Acts 10:34-37

Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. "The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)— you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.


The word sent to the sons of Israel is for the many of every nation who fears God and does what is right. NOT just Israel alone. 

1 Corinthians 10:18

Look at the nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar?


The nation Israel is a sharer in the sacrifice of Christ. Christ was the seed promised Abraham, not Israel. This is plainly stated in Galatians 3:16. Look it up.

1 Peter 2:4-10 ESV
As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.” So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


This is a direct reference to a promise God did make to the nation of Israel. 

Exodus 19:3-6

Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel: 'You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself. ~'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel." 

Notice the promise was not worded, "nation of Israel," but rather "sons of Israel." Such was the convention in those ancient times. Here's what Paul said that. 

Romans 9:6-13 ESV
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Not all Israel is Israel. What part of Israel is Israel then? According to Paul it is those that are of God's promise, not of blood nor the will or the work of men. That is what the verses actually state! Who then will be saved? Paul clearly stated, "all Israel will be saved," didn't he? Yes, he did! Did he mean all Israel both of promise and not of promise, or all Israel of promise? What in scripture would lead us to believe God will say Christ-deniers not of the promise? 

Nothing! 

John 3:18-19 NIV
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 

John 1:11-13

He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is very, very important because one part of the covenant promises God did make to Israel was the promise to destroy them if they disobeyed Him. The list of destructive promises and curses is too long to post but here's an excerpt, 

Deuteronomy 28:15-68

"But it shall come about, if you do not obey the LORD your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes with which I charge you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: ...Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out. "The LORD will send upon you curses, confusion, and rebuke, in all you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken Me..... The LORD will smite you with consumption and with fever and with inflammation and with fiery heat and with the sword and with blight and with mildew, and they will pursue you until you perish. "The heaven which is over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you, iron. "The LORD will make the rain of your land powder and dust; from heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.... So all these curses shall come on you and pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you would not obey the LORD your God by keeping His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. "They shall become a sign and a wonder on you and your descendants forever. "Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joy and a glad heart, for the abundance of all things; therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in the lack of all things; and He will put an iron yoke on your neck until He has destroyed you. "The LORD will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as the eagle swoops down, a nation whose language you shall not understand, a nation of fierce countenance who will have no respect for the old, nor show favor to the young. "Moreover, it shall eat the offspring of your herd and the produce of your ground until you are destroyed, who also leaves you no grain, new wine, or oil, nor the increase of your herd or the young of your flock until they have caused you to perish. "It shall besiege you in all your towns until your high and fortified walls in which you trusted come down throughout your land, and it shall besiege you in all your towns throughout your land which the LORD your God has given you. "Then you shall eat the offspring of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters whom the LORD your God has given you, during the siege and the distress by which your enemy will oppress you.... Also every sickness and every plague which, not written in the book of this law, the LORD will bring on you until you are destroyed. "Then you shall be left few in number, whereas you were as numerous as the stars of heaven, because you did not obey the LORD your God. "It shall come about that as the LORD delighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the LORD will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you..." 


That is what God promised those gathered at Gerizim, just after they'd crossed over into the promised land, shortly after being instructed to make first-fruit offering (another direct fact of continuity from Old to New). 

God did not make such a promise to Abraham. 

In Abraham's vision it was the symbols of God who walked between the carcass halves of the suzerain covenant. What Abraham saw in his vision was God paying the sacrifice of destruction Himself. But in Dt. 28 God told the Israelites in unequivocal terms He would destroy them if they disobeyed Him. It was a covenant promise. See any mention of it in this op? Why has this op presented only half of the truth? Training? Incompetence? Ignorance? Deceit? Any other possible explanations for the clear lapse? I'm going to go with training because that would be the kindest view of my brother in Christ. Dispensationalism teaches scripture badly to its adherents and as a consequence, ops like this get posted.

Israel was made a great nation. God fulfilled His promise. Israel did not keep its part of the covenant. 

Paul explains Genesis 26:4 in Galatians 3 when he states, "the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” Paul is literally quoting Genesis 26:4! 

But Josh, what is there to say about Genesis 46:3? Great question. Scripture tells us the things of the Old Testament were "foreshadows" of greater realities, especially the elements of the law (Col. 2:17, Heb. 10:1). We also know God used real history to illustrate spiritual realities. Egypt, the land of Hebrew slavery (Hebrew slavery, not Israel slavery - they were not then the nation of Israel) is symbolic of humanity's slavery to sin, just as the promised land is symbolic of the land where lay, "the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God" (Heb. 11:10). Matthew appeals to Israel going to Egypt and coming out of Egypt as a testimony to Christ. He references Hosea 11:1 to show how the events of Christ's early years are a fulfillment of the promises first made to Abraham, then disobedient Israel, and both have their fulfillment in Christ, not the nation of Israel, and both are for the believers in Christ.



Matthew 2:13-14

And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”



The seed promised Abraham was Jesus, not Israel, and the Hebrew enslavement is Egypt shadowed "the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." That is what the Church believed, thought, taught, and practiced until John Darby.


Let's a do a little review. 

The op starts out claiming God has particular reasons for raising up Israel as a nation and making a great nation of her. The op starts by using Gen. 22:18 to justify and support that claim but God wasn't speaking to Israel in Genesis 22:18 and 1 Peter 2 has Peter directly quoting God's Genesis 22:18 promise to say it is those, "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood," who are the nation promised Abraham. NOT Israel. In point of fact, there is not a single place in the Old Testament where God calls Israel a "great nation." Look it up. There are only four mentions of "great nation," pertaining to Israel and not a single one of them is from God or in reference to his Abrahamic promise. Look them up. Genesis 22:18 is not a promise made to Israel and it is not a promise made to Abraham about Israel. 

The next verse used in the op to support the claims made about Israel is Genesis 26:4's promise to Abraham that the progeny of his promised seed would be extraordinarily numerous. As I have already shown, the seed promised Abraham is Christ, not Israel. Paul makes it quite clear and plain, "the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith," (Rom. 14:3) and those who are of the law are NOT heirs to the promises made to Abraham. Were I a proof-texting sort of believer then Romans 14:6 would be sufficient to refute this entire op. Blessedly, there is a huge pile of scripture that can be brought to bear on this op for the sake of teaching, rebuking, correcting and training. Here again the New Testament provides continuity between Old and New. In Galatians 3 we again find Paul referencing this Genesis 26:4 promise and applying it to the saints in Christ. Genesis 26:4 is not a promise made to Israel, nor is it a promise made to Abraham about Israel. According to Paul it is a promise made to Abraham about the saints! 


I will address the rest of this op when I have time but what should be clear from the reading of this post is that the author of this op, no matter how well-intentioned his effort, makes some very serious errors handling scripture. Promises made to Abraham are NOT promises made to Israel and they do not prove God "has some particular reasons for raising Israel up and making a great nation out of her," other than those found in Christ. None of those Genesis promises are not made to Israel. They are ALL made to Abraham, not Israel. All of them are made about Christ, not Israel. 

That is what the New Testament teaches us. 


So let me make a few closing observations about Dispensationalism that are applicable to this thread. Dispensationalism teaches scripture should be read literally. As those of you who've read the ops in this board dedicated to the "Dispensationalism Controversy," the average Dispensationalist does not do a very good job of reading scripture literally. They don't practice their own hermeneutic with much consistency. An obvious, undeniable example of this inconsistency is the fact the promises of Genesis were made to Abraham, not Israel. There's no mention of Israel in any of the verses cited. They read to mean they are applicable because Israel was a nation that eventually preceded from Abraham's progeny, but they 1) do not meet the qualifications of the promised nation and 2) the Old Testament tells us they weren't it. Which brings me to my next observation pertaining to literal reading. The New Testament passages I cited literally state Jesus is the promised seed and those who are sanctified by the Holy Spirit and obedient to Christ that are the holy nation, the nation of priests, the members of the city of peace built by God's will, purpose, and hand and not those of the flesh. Quite literally. So this, then, brings us to the thrid problem the readers will see recurring throughout this thread: the neglect of the New Testament in preference to a divided emphasis on the Old Testament. The Dispensationalist claims to read scripture literally (but they don't actually do so) but what they really mean is they read selected parts of the Old Testament literalistically, not literally, and they do so in neglect of the newer revelation that often literally explains what was previously stated. The net effect is a Judaization of Christianity and the corruption of long held, well-established core Christian doctrines. God has two separate plans for creation, one for Israel, and another for the Church. Does scripture ever anywhere literally state such a thing? No! There is only one way to God. Salvation is found in Christ alone by grace, through faith. Not by being a member of a reconstituted earthly nation, building another stone temple, adding more animal sacrifices, surviving a tribulation and then having Jesus come a rule before coming to faith. That is a works-based salvation. Then there is the problem of what I call, "onlyism." Some of you have read me comment on this before. "Onlyism," is the practice of inserting the word or premise of "only" into scripture where it simply does not exist. In the case of this op, the word, "particular," is used. Some promises God made only to Israel. That is certainly true and can easily be evidence in scripture. However, it is not always true. In the case of the Genesis verses listed at the beginning of this op it is not true. Those promises were not only for Israel and some of them weren't for the bloodline nation of Israel at all. Lastly, it's very difficult to get defenders of Dispensationalism to stay on point. The point of my dissent in this particular post is that the three Genesis verses are not to or about Israel according to the New Testament. Let's see how ell respondents to this post can stick to that one point. Keep these things in mind while reading through the thread. 


Lastly, JDS, this is not personal. I consider you a brother in Christ and fellow heir in the inheritance we have in him. This is about Dispensationalism. It is a wretchedly faulty theology. The flaws will (probably) come out somewhere in every post. That means a lot of time could be spent correcting and defending every little problem. If scripture truyl is our guide and authority, then I think your next response should be to either 1) clarify how the three proof-texted Genesis verses have anything particularly to do with Israel, or 2) acknowledge they do not have anything particularly to do with Israel. Given what the New Testament literally states about those Abrahamic promises I do not think the claim or particularity can be justified or proven but I am open to you making that case. In our past exchanges the often-occurring response has been to bring non sequiturs into the conversation.

While my dissent here is lengthy, it's not that complicated: the Genesis verses quoted are not to Israel or about Israel in particular. 

If they are not to Israel and they are not particularly about Israel, then the opening thesis of this op has no foundation. 

I will reply to other aspects of this op as I have time and inclination, but for now the subject is the foundation of this op. Can the claim of particularity be supported by Genesis 22, 26, and 43? The New Testament says no because those promises are made to Abraham about Christ and his body. 

Here I have selected the Deuteronomy verses that were quoted in support of the op's stated position, God has specific reasons for raising up and making a great nation out of Israel.

Notice God doesn't once state His reasons for in any of these verses. Neither does He once state His reasons for the verses. Notice most of these verses contain observations about the nation, not the identification of reasons for His making the great. Notice most of these qualities or attributes are about the law or God, not the nation Israel. What nation is so great to have God as their God or His Law as their law? None! Since Israel did not make God, did not initiate the covenant with God, and did not create this Law none of it is attributable to the nation. As is the case with ALL of God's covenants, God initiates the covenant, chooses and calls the people to obedience, and does not ask them if they are interested in joining until long after everything is established. In the case of the nation of Israel all of it was planned by God before any of them were even born! 

Notice that all of these promises are conditional. Of all the Deuteronomic verses quoted in this op only one includes any of the conditional aspects: Deuteronomy 28:1. If they harkened diligently to God's voice then certain blessings would come. If not, if they disobeyed then curses would ensue, and one of the promised consequences for disobedience was destruction. The destruction of a supposedly great nation. God promised. 



So, we see that God acted to bring about a chosen group of people to occupy the land He had promised Abraham, but none of these verses give any reasons for God doing so. These verses are used selectively, and they don't give reasons! Why select verses that do not give reasons to explain God's "specific reasons" for making Israel great?


This is a particularly odd set of selections because there are verses that explicitly state God's reasons for choosing the Hebrews (and Israel) in Deuteronomy! 

Deuteronomy 7:6-8

"For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 

How could an examination of the reasons God has for making Israel a great nation leave out the passage that explicitly states God's reasons? 

God chose the Hebrews to be His possession, and He did not make that choice because of any attributes unique to those people that God didn't give them. They were chosen because of God's promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God brought them out of Egypt to redeem them from the house of slavery. Verses like that should be posted, not verses that do not actually provide reasons. 

Exodus 9:13-17

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Rise up early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh and say to him, 'Thus says the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, "Let My people go, that they may serve Me. "For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth. For if by now I had put forth My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, you would then have been cut off from the earth. But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth. Still, you exalt yourself against My people by not letting them go."

They were chosen to show God's glory throughout ALL the earth. They were not chosen to show God's glory in a little postage-stamp sized portion of land on the east end of the Mediterranean. As we know from scriptural history, Israel did not do this. They disobeyed God. God gave them the land He'd promised, He made them into a great nation even though they rejected Him as their king. They eventually killed His anointed king, making a covenant with other nations in direct disobedience to the entire stated purpose of the covenant God had made with them. 

Romans 11:1-7

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! ................What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened...


The elect, the chosen of Israel obtained what they were seeking. The rest were hardened. 

Here's something else to consider because we want to look at whole scripture, not just a few select verses from the older revelation that was veiled, and shadowed things to come, events that were revealed and explained in the newer revelation. 

Romans 15:1-4

We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, “The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me.” For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.




Everything written about Israel, according to Paul, was written for the Christian living when he wrote Romans (and by extension, for the Christians of every era). What were God's particular reasons for choosing the Hebrews, calling them Israel, and making them a great nation? To show His power and declare His name throughout the earth, and to be instruction for those redeemed from slavery. A selective use of proof-texted Old Testament verses would never get us there, though. If we started with the assumption Israel and the Church are completely unrelated and further assumed two separate set of purposes and goals, then we might read scripture selectively to confirm these eisegetic biases. This becomes untenable, though, when the proof-texted verses are examined in their surrounding verses and the information about them provided by the newer revelation. 

Dispensationalism starts with the assumption Israel and the Church are two completely different entities corresponding to entirely different and unrelated purposes of God. Those within Replacement Theology fall on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, wrongly thinking the Church replaces Israel. The rest of Christendom reads scripture as written and understands we are grafted into an already existing tree. 

Romans 11:15-29

For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


I've already shown how some in Israel receive what they were seeking, and others were hardened. Here, just a few verses later in the same narrative Paul adds a third condition: some were cut off. They aren't part of the tree any longer. Not all Israel is Israel. What happens to branches that are cut off from the tree? 

John 15:1-10

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.


Branches that are cut off harden and are eventually tossed not the fire to be destroyed. Now go back and re-read Deuteronomy 28 and marking all the items of disobedience Israel committed and the conditional similarities between that chapter and John 15's vine narrative. This too was one of the reasons Israel became a great nation. No one remembers the Jebusites, Perizzites, or Hivites, but the whole world knows about Israel. 

Let the reader understand the verses I quoted in my op are resisted by Josheb because he does not believe the words. There can be no doubt that the Abrahamic Covenant gave earthly promises concerning the land and nationhood to the family of Abraham for all eternity through Isaac and Jacob and one can find the purpose of God for doing so in those verses. One must understand that choosing Israel (Jacob) as the earthly people of God and the chief nation among all the nations on the earth, does not restrict God from also choosing a heavenly people for his Son, not a nation, but a body over which he is the head. This is the church, which is taken from all the nations of the earth, beginning in Jerusalem with Judah and the strangers of Israel who are scattered abroad. In eternity the trinitarian signature will be on mankind in the three classes of peoples, the church, the nations (gentile), and Israel. This is the same division that God has given in the beginning of this church age. (1 Cor 10: 32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God):

The provisions to Abraham and his seed in his covenant with God, both physical and spiritual, must come to pass exactly as given by God because it is a legal document and God's faithfulness is at stake. The promised seed of the woman, Jesus Christ, did indeed come through this family and nation, but that did not nullify the other covenant promises, most of which have not been fulfilled at this very day.

josheb, and others like him, are trying to convince people that all the OT scriptures concerning these promises are to be spiritualized, which is another way of saying they are not really true. This brings me to ask the question, "who will you believe, josheb and his followers, or the scriptures?" This is an important question.

I ask that those who have read scriptures in my op read them again and a strike/through be made in those that you do not believe are literally true promises to Abraham and his family/nation. Please also read again and see how often josheb says he does not believe them and tries to throw a twist on these words of God. If God does not keep his words to Abraham, please do not think he will keep his words to you.


This is at the apostles conference at Jerusalem concerning the gentile converts responsibility to the Jewish ceremonial laws.

Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

14 Simeon (Peter) hath declared how God at the first (in Acts 10) did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.



15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,



16 After this (the taking out from the gentiles a people for his name) I will return (to earth from sitting at the right hand of the Father on his throne in heaven), and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.(aion = age)


19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

No, let NOT the reader understand that. 

I believe the words as written, exactly as written and in their full context of whole scripture. What I do not believe is the way Dispensationalism divides and re-interprets scripture to make it say things it does not actually state. This is self-evident in the fact the first few verses used in this op were not spoken to Israel, there's not a single word in them mentioning Israel, and the New Testament writers apply them (repeatedly!) to the Church. 

So.....


Let the reader understand KDS had the opportunity to address his own op in light of what I brought to bear on it and within that liberty he deliberately chose to call me an unbeliever, appealing to ad hominem instead of the op-relevant content.  



So.... let me repeat my dissent (at least as far as the first bit of evidence provided in the op). This op built its position first on Genesis 18:18, which asks (in the KJV), "Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?" Or to better understand what is being said in this verse here's a larger portion of the passage so the readers have more from God than JDS' proof-texting abuse of God's word. Here's what the text actually states, 

Genesis 18:9-22 KJV
And they said unto him, "Where is Sarah thy wife?" And he said, "Behold, in the tent."  And he said, "I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son." And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. Therefore, Sarah laughed within herself, saying, "After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?"  And the LORD said unto Abraham, "Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?'  Is anything too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son."  Then Sarah denied, saying, "I laughed not; for she was afraid." And he said, "Nay; but thou didst laugh."  And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. And the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."  And the LORD said, "Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."  And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.


This describes the event (after Abram had left Ur) in which two messengers of God come to visit Abraham to inform his wife Sarah will bear him a son. Notice what the text actually, specifically, explicitly states. What it actually states is Abraham will become a great nation. In verse 18 it is Abraham that will become the great nation of God's promise NOT Israel. There's no mention of Israel at all. Israel didn't even exist when verse 18 was first spoken. Not only is Abraham the one who will become a great nation, and not only is there no mention of the non-existent Israel, but The "particular reasons" God states as His reasons all have to do with Abraham, not Israel. 

I believe it exactly as written. 

I, unlike this op, have not and do not add anything or subtract anything from this verse, the surrounding verses, nor the clear contact asserted by scripture itself. 

And the problems just cited apply to all the first four verses proof-texted in this op. 

What's important here is that this op is not defending scripture. It is defending Dispensationalism! The op is titled, "Prophecies and Promises relating to Israel, the Nation," and the op's thesis statement is (in part), "God has some particular reasons for raising Israel up and making a great nation out of her," but the first four verses it uses aren't said to or about Israel AND they are read from an exclusively Dispensational point of view. 








So let me remind everyone what just happened. Rather than acknowledge the clear facts of scripture with a collaborative and unifying expressions like, "Yes, you are correct, Josh, Genesis 18:18 was spoken to Abraham about Abraham and Abraham becoming a great nation," which would be the truth of God's word with which ALL of us here are supposed to have unity, JDS purposefully chose to call me an unbeliever, saying, "Let the reader understand the verses I quoted in my op are resisted by Josheb because he does not believe the words." According to JDS he wants everyone to know I don't believe God's words. 


That is his defense.