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Post by Theophilus on Dec 22, 2022 13:08:43 GMT -8
They banned me last night, it said you are banned to 25/12, went on today and I am able to post, very odd. I am not posting in the C&A, they will only ban me anyway. I could be wrong, but there has been a few times when it really feels like they hate me. Posting here feels like a breeze, much nicer environment. It’s not love that’s for sure . It’s favoritism , biased , unfriendly etc I'm still not seeing the love in Calvinism. Perhaps it's up ahead just around the bend. However I have found universal divine casual determinism on display quite clearly in Calvinism. Has John Calvin seemed to abdicate the idea that every single action is foreordained by God, and therefore human freedom is an illusion. Calvin states,"...it is vain to debate about prescience, In which it is clear that all events take place by his Sovereign appointment” You can find that in his book Institutes of Christian religion, book 3, chapter 23, paragraph 6. Then it gets really deep..."creatures are so governed by the secret Council of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly determined.” so just for the sake of clarity we can call the idea that all actions are caused by God and predetermined "Universal divine casual determinism.” I have to ask the question if someone forces someone else to do something evil, who is responsible for that evil? Calvinism’s view of divine sovereignty as comprehensive causation via an all-encompassing decree, and in which God determines “everything that happens” is such an example. Calvinists have a God that “causes everything that happens.” Consistent Calvinists accept what this means... That God causes sin, evil, hatred, wars, rapes, diseases, and so on. Calvin himself was just such a consistent “Calvinist” in this respect: “The will of God is the supreme and primary cause of all things, because nothing happens without his order or permission. It's easy to believe that every single action was predestined, but it's much more difficult to live out. the Holocaust comes to mind, Not to mention the Total number of abortions performed in the U.S. 1973-2020: This is staggering 63.6 million +. |
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Post by civic on Dec 22, 2022 13:14:31 GMT -8
It’s not love that’s for sure . It’s favoritism , biased , unfriendly etc I'm still not seeing the love in Calvinism. Perhaps it's up ahead just around the bend. However I have found universal divine casual determinism on display quite clearly in Calvinism. Has John Calvin seemed to abdicate the idea that every single action is foreordained by God, and therefore human freedom is an illusion. Calvin states,"...it is vain to debate about prescience, In which it is clear that all events take place by his Sovereign appointment” You can find that in his book Institutes of Christian religion, book 3, chapter 23, paragraph 6. Then it gets really deep..."creatures are so governed by the secret Council of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly determined.” so just for the sake of clarity we can call the idea that all actions are caused by God and predetermined "Universal divine casual determinism.” I have to ask the question if someone forces someone else to do something evil, who is responsible for that evil? Calvinism’s view of divine sovereignty as comprehensive causation via an all-encompassing decree, and in which God determines “everything that happens” is such an example. Calvinists have a God that “causes everything that happens.” Consistent Calvinists accept what this means... That God causes sin, evil, hatred, wars, rapes, diseases, and so on. Calvin himself was just such a consistent “Calvinist” in this respect: “The will of God is the supreme and primary cause of all things, because nothing happens without his order or permission. It's easy to believe that every single action was predestined, but it's much more difficult to live out. the Holocaust comes to mind, Not to mention the Total number of abortions performed in the U.S. 1973-2020: This is staggering 63.6 million +. There is no escaping how unloving the doctrine of divine decree/ determinism is in Calvinism . It’s the opposite of loving . |
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Post by Theophilus on Dec 22, 2022 14:24:21 GMT -8
How about unconditional election? Think there might be some love going on there? John Calvin States his feelings on this subject in no uncertain terms:
“Therefore, those whom God passed over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from The Inheritance which he predestined for his own children” from Institutes of Christian religion, book 3, chapter 23, paragraph 1
“...We say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable plan those whom he longed before determined once for all to receive into salvation and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction... he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation” Same book chapter 21, paragraph 7.
“...Salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it”... Same book same chapter paragraph 5. unconditional election tells us that from eternity past, God decided who would be elect and who would be damned.
Oh I know I can hear it now "but wait a minute, that's double predestination, and I don't believe in that! I only believe that God predestined elect and passes over the Reprobate.” Functionally there's no difference between predestination and double predestination. It's best to think this stuff through.
It's like if I run into a burning building with five children in it and could rescue them all but decide I only feel like taking too, I'm in effect condemning the remaining three whether I decree it or not. See how that works?
If irresistible Grace is true, then God could irresistibly bring everyone to himself, but instead, God decides that he doesn't want to save everyone, dooming those he doesn't want to save to Everlasting wailing and garnishing of teeth in hell. So please forgive me if I don't see a meaningful difference between predestination and double predestination. It just sounds like a cop-out to me. Nothing to see here folks just move along.
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Post by civic on Dec 22, 2022 14:54:20 GMT -8
How about unconditional election? Think there might be some love going on there? John Calvin States his feelings on this subject in no uncertain terms: “Therefore, those whom God passed over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from The Inheritance which he predestined for his own children” from Institutes of Christian religion, book 3, chapter 23, paragraph 1 “...We say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable plan those whom he longed before determined once for all to receive into salvation and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction... he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation” Same book chapter 21, paragraph 7. “...Salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it”... Same book same chapter paragraph 5. unconditional election tells us that from eternity past, God decided who would be elect and who would be damned. Oh I know I can hear it now "but wait a minute, that's double predestination, and I don't believe in that! I only believe that God predestined elect and passes over the Reprobate.” Functionally there's no difference between predestination and double predestination. It's best to think this stuff through. It's like if I run into a burning building with five children in it and could rescue them all but decide I only feel like taking too, I'm in effect condemning the remaining three whether I decree it or not. See how that works? If irresistible Grace is true, then God could irresistibly bring everyone to himself, but instead, God decides that he doesn't want to save everyone, dooming those he doesn't want to save to Everlasting wailing and garnishing of teeth in hell. So please forgive me if I don't see a meaningful difference between predestination and double predestination. It just sounds like a cop-out to me. Nothing to see here folks just move along. You are on fire 🔥 today |
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Post by rockson on Dec 22, 2022 17:16:23 GMT -8
It’s not love that’s for sure . It’s favoritism , biased , unfriendly etc Ha....well around the bend Theophilus when it comes to Calvinism the bridge is out. |
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leeh
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Post by leeh on Dec 23, 2022 3:21:17 GMT -8
True they never said God is LOVE. He doesn't just have love his is love. 1 John 4:8 Some ask me what about God's wrath. It's because God is love that he at times manifests his wrath that is to do what needs to be done. If he didn't he would not be love. So as we see he does not believe God is love. He believes it is just one thing he has. I think the whole thing actually makes one feel unlovely. Seriously. If one actually thinks God shows favoritism and partiality when the scriptures' clearly say he doesn't it will draw those adhering to it to bear forth fruit of the same thing they think of as God. That which shows partiality and favoritism is darkness. It's unloving. One is being changed into whatever they're focused on. 1 Corinthians 13:2 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:13 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
God says some extraordinary things about love that shows how important love is to God. The fact that God says he is love, shows for us to be of God, we must have love, because that is how God wants us to reflect him. The Calvinists not only do not understand this, it goes against their doctrines. I remember one of them saying here comes the God is love people, which really shows what they think of God is love. I thought that was very telling.
They are so fixated with Gods wrath and his sovereignty that nothing else seems to matter. They con Christians with their reverence for God, by tricking them into believing that it is all about Gods sovereignty and nothing else. This is how young, new Christians or Christians who do not know their bible very well get taken in by Calvinism, they inflate Gods sovereignty so they can say you can't argue with God, if he wants to be unjust who are you to speak back to him. It's essentially censorship in areas that would show Calvinism to be false. Love is defintely one of their biggest stumbling blocks.
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Post by civic on Dec 23, 2022 4:03:23 GMT -8
1 Corinthians 13:2 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:13 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
God says some extraordinary things about love that shows how important love is to God. The fact that God says he is love, shows for us to be of God, we must have love, because that is how God wants us to reflect him. The Calvinists not only do not understand this, it goes against their doctrines. I remember one of them saying here comes the God is love people, which really shows what they think of God is love. I thought that was very telling.
They are so fixated with Gods wrath and his sovereignty that nothing else seems to matter. They con Christians with their reverence for God, by tricking them into believing that it is all about Gods sovereignty and nothing else. This is how young, new Christians or Christians who do not know their bible very well get taken in by Calvinism, they inflate Gods sovereignty so they can say you can't argue with God, if he wants to be unjust who are you to speak back to him. It's essentially censorship in areas that would show Calvinism to be false. Love is defintely one of their biggest stumbling blocks.
One claims God hates every sinner so I asked are you a sinner and what makes your sin so special that God doesn't hate you. Crickets chirping and all the usual dodging and weaving. Somehow they are blind to their own contradictions over there and refuse to see them. Anyone looking in from the outside with no theological position to defend can see the obvious contradictions. Its the same with divine determinism and God decreeing evil, sin. An oxymoron. |
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Post by Obadiah on Dec 23, 2022 5:04:31 GMT -8
Ha....well around the bend Theophilus when it comes to Calvinism the bridge is out. We have a bridge over troubled water, Jesus, He laid down is life out of real love for us. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another — and all the more as you see the Day approaching. Hebrews 10:24-25 |
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Post by Theophilus on Dec 23, 2022 6:06:04 GMT -8
What's love got to do with it since Unconditional Election says God sovereignly determines who will have everlasting life?
According to Calvinism, God chose who would have everlasting life before creation. Think of a large ball of clay. Imagine a ball of clay the size of a beach ball. Now imagine pinching off a small piece the size of a golf ball. The golf ball size piece of clay represents the elect, those who will have everlasting life. The beach ball size of clay represents those not chosen those who will spend eternity in the lake of fire.
Calvinism teaches that the non-elect have no opportunity to have everlasting life. They are doomed even before they are conceived or before they draw their first breath. In addition, Calvinism teaches that God made this decision unconditionally. That is, He did not look in advance and see which ones would be more responsive, or which ones would freely come to faith in Christ, or anything of the kind. God simply chose. That sounds arbitrary since The Bible clearly states in Acts 13:46 that people judge themselves worthy or Unworthy of everlasting life.
What we have here folks is a conundrum…in the Calvinist belief that God selects some people to save and others to “pass over” and that this selection has absolutely nothing to do with anything he sees in them or about them. Yet his selection is not arbitrary…There is no middle ground between arbitrary and there being something about people that causes God to select them (such as a free response to God’s invitation to be saved). An appeal to mystery is incorrect; this is not a mystery but a conundrum.
See how love has nothing to do with it in Calvinism?
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Post by rockson on Dec 23, 2022 6:58:40 GMT -8
We have a bridge over troubled water, Jesus, He laid down is life out of real love for us. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another — and all the more as you see the Day approaching. Hebrews 10:24-25 And I do agree with this. I believe in challenging Calvinistic thinking we are spurring others on to having a love way of thinking in how they even think about God and his character. One can't help but be encouraged coming to know God's good and gracious character who shows no favoritism or partiality. It lets one know they are important and have value. |
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Post by rockson on Dec 23, 2022 7:28:31 GMT -8
Perhaps the answer to them might be, "Well are you one of the God is hate people?" Of course I"m not saying they truly believe that and they'd have ways they would answer the statement but when one looks at their doctrinal positions though they do have God hates the majority of the human race.
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Post by Theophilus on Dec 23, 2022 7:33:23 GMT -8
What does it mean when the Scriptures declare that God hates sinners? First, Webster’s Dictionary defines hate as a feeling of extreme enmity toward someone, to regard another with active hostility, or to have a strong aversion toward another: to detest, loathe, abhor, or abominate. Although these are hard words, Scripture uses most, if not all of these to describe God’s relationship to sin and the sinner.
Secondly, we must understand that God’s hatred exists in perfect harmony with His other attributes. Unlike man, God’s hatred is holy, just, and a result of His love.
Thirdly, we must understand that God’s hatred is not a denial of His love. Psalm 5:5 is not a denial of John 3:16 or Matthew 5:44–45. Although God’s wrath abides upon the sinner, although He is angry with the wicked every day, and although He hates all who do iniquity, His love is of such a nature that He is able to love those who are the very objects of His hatred and work on their behalf for their salvation.
Fourthly, although God is long-suffering toward the objects of His hatred and holds salvation out to them, there will come a time when He will withdraw His offer and reconciliation will no longer be possible.
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Post by civic on Dec 23, 2022 7:56:35 GMT -8
We have a bridge over troubled water, Jesus, He laid down is life out of real love for us. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another — and all the more as you see the Day approaching. Hebrews 10:24-25 And I do agree with this. I believe in challenging Calvinistic thinking we are spurring others on to having a love way of thinking in how they even think about God and his character. One can't help but be encouraged coming to know God's good and gracious character who shows no favoritism or partiality. It lets one know they are important and have value. Amen brother |
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leeh
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Post by leeh on Dec 23, 2022 10:20:09 GMT -8
Perhaps the answer to them might be, "Well are you one of the God is hate people?" Of course I"m not saying they truly believe that and they'd have ways they would answer the statement but when one looks at their doctrinal positions though they do have God hates the majority of the human race.
You ask that and 3 million toys will be thrown out their prams, you might never be seen again.
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leeh
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Post by leeh on Dec 23, 2022 12:12:14 GMT -8
It’s not love that’s for sure . It’s favoritism , biased , unfriendly etc I am starting to get the hang on this forum.
It's unjust, the way they treat people. They twist what we say and seem to want to try and hurt you. It's kind of sad what they have become, because when they first found Christ, I am sure they were kind gentle people, but Calvinism slowly turns them into something that isn't what they were intended to be. I don't know what they are like outside of that forum, they may be different, but I doubt it.
The love thread Theophilus has created is causing them real problems in trying to respond in any meaningful way. It's just not their thing.
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