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Post by civic on Dec 23, 2022 12:38:10 GMT -8
It’s not love that’s for sure . It’s favoritism , biased , unfriendly etc I am starting to get the hang on this forum.
It's unjust, the way they treat people. They twist what we say and seem to want to try and hurt you. It's kind of sad what they have become, because when they first found Christ, I am sure they were kind gentle people, but Calvinism slowly turns them into something that isn't what they were intended to be. I don't know what they are like outside of that forum, they may be different, but I doubt it.
The love thread Theophilus has created is causing them real problems in trying to respond in any meaningful way. It's just not their thing.
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Post by Theophilus on Dec 23, 2022 15:29:01 GMT -8
God’s love for miserable sinners is what moves him to provide salvation for them. God’s heart of love for his fallen children flows out of his perfect nature just as surely as his love of justice.
Now here it is crucial to emphasize that everything that is distinctively Christian about our faith is whatever has been revealed by the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. Christianity is what it is because of Christ. Notice that both aspects of the twofold love of God are shown to us through Christ.
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Post by civic on Dec 24, 2022 5:11:34 GMT -8
God’s love for miserable sinners is what moves him to provide salvation for them. God’s heart of love for his fallen children flows out of his perfect nature just as surely as his love of justice. Now here it is crucial to emphasize that everything that is distinctively Christian about our faith is whatever has been revealed by the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. Christianity is what it is because of Christ. Notice that both aspects of the twofold love of God are shown to us through Christ. Yes and there are no "classes " of sinner as scripture says all are under sin. There is no such thing as the elect/non elect unregenerate sinner. All are under the same condemnation as sinners, all mankind without exception. So when Psalm 5:5 says God hates sinners the calvinists on the other forum excludes themselves from the verse since they are elect and God loves them. It is amazing to see how the scriptures get twisted like the JW's twist them to fit their doctrines. |
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Post by rockson on Dec 24, 2022 8:30:45 GMT -8
God’s love for miserable sinners is what moves him to provide salvation for them. God’s heart of love for his fallen children flows out of his perfect nature just as surely as his love of justice. Now here it is crucial to emphasize that everything that is distinctively Christian about our faith is whatever has been revealed by the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. Christianity is what it is because of Christ. Notice that both aspects of the twofold love of God are shown to us through Christ. Like some say, Bible or no Bible I'm going to stay with my traditions. Some of them won't even allow themselves to consider they've been wrong all their lives. |
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Post by civic on Dec 24, 2022 9:40:19 GMT -8
Like some say, Bible or no Bible I'm going to stay with my traditions. Some of them won't even allow themselves to consider they've been wrong all their lives. Yes there is a real blind spot with some and trust me I know this firsthand brother . Here is how blind it can get to the point that some say I was never a real Calvinist to begin with, the irony being how they once said I was a great teacher and would rep me all of the time . Just another oxymoron with many , not all but many . |
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Post by rockson on Dec 29, 2022 6:47:23 GMT -8
Yes there is a real blind spot with some and trust me I know this firsthand brother . Here is how blind it can get to the point that some say I was never a real Calvinist to begin with, the irony being how they once said I was a great teacher and would rep me all of the time . Just another oxymoron with many , not all but many . Well if you weren't a Calvinist all that time WOW....you'd deserve a lot of credit for many years being a undercover Non-Calvinist waiting patiently for years for just the right time to reveal you have doubts about the whole thing. You did a great job at it for they were convinced you were one of theirs. Maybe they're looking at their most devout now looking for signs of insincerity. They certainly don't want it happening again! |
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Post by civic on Dec 29, 2022 7:08:26 GMT -8
Yes there is a real blind spot with some and trust me I know this firsthand brother . Here is how blind it can get to the point that some say I was never a real Calvinist to begin with, the irony being how they once said I was a great teacher and would rep me all of the time . Just another oxymoron with many , not all but many . Well if you weren't a Calvinist all that time WOW....you'd deserve a lot of credit for many years being a undercover Non-Calvinist waiting patiently for years for just the right time to reveal you have doubts about the whole thing. You did a great job at it for they were convinced you were one of theirs. Maybe they're looking at their most devout now looking for signs of insincerity. They certainly don't want it happening again! yes that is so true as quite a few have left calvinism on carm- joe, me, theophilus, redeemed just to name a few. If Rev would actually engage scripture and not his doctrine he could be next but I'm afraid he knows if he does where it will lead so he avoids going down that path. he is smart enough to know it which is why he avoids it imho. while I was an active member I would always try and challenge him to have that discussion but he would always go back to theological phrases/positions/assumptions with calvinism rather than deal with a given passage. its how they play dodge ball lol. they do not want to face their contradictions especially when it comes to God is love and Jesus command to love our enemies and do good to them as our heavenly Father does and to be like Him. |
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Post by rockson on Dec 29, 2022 19:02:11 GMT -8
Well if you weren't a Calvinist all that time WOW....you'd deserve a lot of credit for many years being a undercover Non-Calvinist waiting patiently for years for just the right time to reveal you have doubts about the whole thing. You did a great job at it for they were convinced you were one of theirs. Maybe they're looking at their most devout now looking for signs of insincerity. They certainly don't want it happening again! yes that is so true as quite a few have left calvinism on carm- joe, me, theophilus, redeemed just to name a few. If Rev would actually engage scripture and not his doctrine he could be next but I'm afraid he knows if he does where it will lead so he avoids going down that path. he is smart enough to know it which is why he avoids it imho. while I was an active member I would always try and challenge him to have that discussion but he would always go back to theological phrases/positions/assumptions with calvinism rather than deal with a given passage. its how they play dodge ball lol. they do not want to face their contradictions especially when it comes to God is love and Jesus command to love our enemies and do good to them as our heavenly Father does and to be like Him. Yeah they do tend to stay away from the LOVE issue of God loving his enemies. I know some have put forth but it's not a salvation LOVE which is beyond belief they'd come up with that. So God loves people enough to maybe provide a few material things but the most important thing of all eternal life not qualified? As you said yourself the LOVE issue was the thing that led to your to change right? I believe you said Calvin in his Institute writing wouldn't even talk about God is LOVE and that's the thing that spoke to you. |
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Post by civic on Dec 30, 2022 4:21:15 GMT -8
yes that is so true as quite a few have left calvinism on carm- joe, me, theophilus, redeemed just to name a few. If Rev would actually engage scripture and not his doctrine he could be next but I'm afraid he knows if he does where it will lead so he avoids going down that path. he is smart enough to know it which is why he avoids it imho. while I was an active member I would always try and challenge him to have that discussion but he would always go back to theological phrases/positions/assumptions with calvinism rather than deal with a given passage. its how they play dodge ball lol. they do not want to face their contradictions especially when it comes to God is love and Jesus command to love our enemies and do good to them as our heavenly Father does and to be like Him. Yeah they do tend to stay away from the LOVE issue of God loving his enemies. I know some have put forth but it's not a salvation LOVE which is beyond belief they'd come up with that. So God loves people enough to maybe provide a few material things but the most important thing of all eternal life not qualified? As you said yourself the LOVE issue was the thing that led to your to change right? I believe you said Calvin in his Institute writing wouldn't even talk about God is LOVE and that's the thing that spoke to you. yes those two things stood out to me that in the WCF love as a listed attribute of God was left out and might I say it was intentional and in the Institutes calvin left out 1 John 4:8;16 God is love passages. There is a good reason why imho. It opposes double predestination and Gods eternal decree which proves God to be unloving. |
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SteveB
New Member
Learning to follow Jesus
Posts: 36
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Post by SteveB on Jan 7, 2023 13:45:04 GMT -8
So, in that place that shall not be named (and please don't say it), I went back and read through a number of posts by various members, and I noticed something....
While presenting my "novel idea" thread, I began getting the sense of what Isaiah and Jesus described as...
Teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.
As such, while I don't specifically have a problem with what is apparently the reform theology, it strikes me as man's attempt to create a framework that gives an understanding of God and his theology.
I am not, nor have I ever been trained in the various "theological" frameworks.
And yes.... I understand that if I said that at that unnamed location, it'd be like throwing a bunch of cats into a room filled with rocking chairs.
Ok. Maybe more like a few grenades along with it.
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Post by civic on Jan 8, 2023 4:42:44 GMT -8
So, in that place that shall not be named (and please don't say it), I went back and read through a number of posts by various members, and I noticed something.... While presenting my "novel idea" thread, I began getting the sense of what Isaiah and Jesus described as... Teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. As such, while I don't specifically have a problem with what is apparently the reform theology, it strikes me as man's attempt to create a framework that gives an understanding of God and his theology. I am not, nor have I ever been trained in the various "theological" frameworks. And yes.... I understand that if I said that at that unnamed location, it'd be like throwing a bunch of cats into a room filled with rocking chairs. Ok. Maybe more like a few grenades along with it. Yes steve that is a good description. I know theophilus and several others on here are over there too. I still lurk and read what goes on. But Pharisaism is a good description, legalism with their doctrines. If you do not agree you are ridiculed and made fun of and sometimes ganged up on much like bullying. |
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Post by rockson on Jan 9, 2023 3:12:49 GMT -8
So, in that place that shall not be named (and please don't say it), I went back and read through a number of posts by various members, and I noticed something.... While presenting my "novel idea" thread, I began getting the sense of what Isaiah and Jesus described as... Teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. As such, while I don't specifically have a problem with what is apparently the reform theology, it strikes me as man's attempt to create a framework that gives an understanding of God and his theology. I am not, nor have I ever been trained in the various "theological" frameworks. And yes.... I understand that if I said that at that unnamed location, it'd be like throwing a bunch of cats into a room filled with rocking chairs. Ok. Maybe more like a few grenades along with it. Yes steve that is a good description. I know theophilus and several others on here are over there too. I still lurk and read what goes on. But Pharisaism is a good description, legalism with their doctrines. If you do not agree you are ridiculed and made fun of and sometimes ganged up on much like bullying. I've always thought Pharisaism is a good description. There are many ways people can move away from Bible teaching but Calvinism is unique in that like the Pharisees they totally missed the heart, love and nature of God. Misrepresenting the character of God is a very serious mistake. |
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Post by civic on Jan 9, 2023 5:33:48 GMT -8
Yes steve that is a good description. I know theophilus and several others on here are over there too. I still lurk and read what goes on. But Pharisaism is a good description, legalism with their doctrines. If you do not agree you are ridiculed and made fun of and sometimes ganged up on much like bullying. I've always thought Pharisaism is a good description. There are many ways people can move away from Bible teaching but Calvinism is unique in that like the Pharisees they totally missed the heart, love and nature of God. Misrepresenting the character of God is a very serious mistake. Yes that’s my experience and eventually led me out from Calvinism . The same with certain popular theologians/pastors. Now I have known personally some very loving , kind and compassionate ones too. But my online experience and some pastors/ teachers gives them a bad name . |
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Post by civic on Feb 7, 2023 4:27:16 GMT -8
Unfortunately, Calvinists sometimes seem to have a blind spot for the love of God. Consider this question from The Shorter Catechism, which is an abbreviated version of The Westminster Confession of Faith, a classic Calvinist statement of faith. The Catechism asks this most fundamental theological question: “What is God?” Here is the answer that is given: “God is a Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable, in his being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth.” Do you notice anything missing from this definition? Where is the love? The definition mentions God’s power, his wisdom, and his justice, along with other attributes, but amazingly enough it leaves out perhaps the most beautiful definition of God in the entire Bible: “God is love”. 1 John 4:8,16Calvinist theologian Arthur W. Pink: “When we say that God is sovereign in the exercise of His love, we mean that He loves whom he chooses. God does not love everybody . . . .” How does that work? The bad news is not really well. Is it not the very heart of the gospel that God loves everyone? Is that not the good news that we joyfully share with all persons? “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life”. John 3:16In the Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin there is not one time in this book does Calvin ever quote “God is love.” Hard to believe that in is massive book that is 1,521 pages long and that discusses thousands of biblical texts and discusses God’s nature extensively, Calvin never one time cited 1 John 4:8 or 1 John 4:16. Not even once! This is a stunning omission. I'm still looking for the love in Calvinism. Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil |
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Post by civic on Feb 7, 2023 4:32:09 GMT -8
John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
cosmos from Thayers- the inhabitants of the world ie the human race.
. the inhabitants of the world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5; γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15; also ἐισέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, Hebrews 10:5; of false teachers, 2 John 1:7 (yet here L T Tr WH ἐξέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον; (so all texts in 1 John 4:1)); to invade, of evils coming into existence among men and beginning to exert their power: of sin and death, Romans 5:12 (of death, Wis. 2:24; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 3, 4 [ET]; of idolatry, Wis. 14:14). ἀποστέλλειν τινα εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 3:17;
love from thayers lexicon
ἀγαπάω, (ῶ; (imperfect ἠγάπων); future ἀγαπήσω; 1 aorist ἠγάπησα; perfect active (1 person plural ἠγαπήκαμεν, 1 John 4:10 WH text), participle ἠγαπηκῶς (2 Timothy 4:8); passive (present ἀγαπῶμαι); perfect participle ἠγαπημένος; 1 future ἀγαπηθήσομαι; (akin to ἄγαμαι (Fick, Part 4:12; see ἀγαθός, at the beginning)); to love, to be full of good-will and exhibit the same: Luke 7:47; 1 John 4:7f; with the accusative of the person, to have a preference for, wish well to, regard the welfare of: Matthew 5:43ff; Matthew 19:19; Luke 7:5; John 11:5; Romans 13:8; 2 Corinthians 11:11; 2 Corinthians 12:15; Galatians 5:14; Ephesians 5:25, 28; 1 Peter 1:22, and elsewhere; used often in the First Epistle of John of the love of Christians toward one another; of the benevolence which God, in providing salvation for men, has exhibited by sending his Son to them and giving him up to death, John 3:16;
Translation from above definitions :
For God so loved ( was full of good will, benevolence ) the world ( the inhabitants of the world, the human race ) that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
Here is Barnes on John 3:16- very enlightening coming from a calvinist.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
For God so loved - This does not mean that God approved the conduct of men, but that he had benevolent feelings toward them, or was "earnestly desirous" of their happiness. God hates wickedness, but he still desires the Happiness of those who are sinful. "He hates the sin, but loves the sinner." A parent may love his child and desire his welfare, and yet be strongly opposed to the conduct of that child. When we approve the conduct of another, this is the love of complacency; when we desire simply their happiness, this is the love of benevolence.
The world - All mankind. It does not mean any particular part of the world, but man as man - the race that had rebelled and that deserved to die. See John 6:33; John 17:21. His love for the world, or for all mankind, in giving his Son, was shown by these circumstances:
1. All the world was in ruin, and exposed to the wrath of God.
2. All people were in a hopeless condition.
3. God gave his Son. Man had no claim on him; it was a gift - an undeserved gift.
4. He gave him up to extreme sufferings, even the bitter pains of death on the cross.
5. It was for all the world. He tasted "death for every man," Hebrews 2:9. He "died for all," 2 Corinthians 5:15. "He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world," 1 John 2:2.
That he gave - It was a free and unmerited gift. Man had no claim: and when there was no eye to pity or arm to save, it pleased God to give his Son into the hands of men to die in their stead, Galatians 1:4; Romans 8:32; Luke 22:19. It was the mere movement of love; the expression of eternal compassion, and of a desire, that sinners should not perish forever.
and calvin said this about the world Jesus died for in John 3:16
" because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish "
" And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life "
" The word world is again repeated, that no man may think himself wholly excluded "
John 3 Calvin's Commentaries
literal meaning:
For God so loved ( was full of good will, benevolence ) the world ( the inhabitants of the world, the human race ) that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever( universally for everyone: calvin ) believes in Him shall not persish but have everlasting life.
hope this helps !!!
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