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Post by Theophilus on Jan 12, 2023 9:36:17 GMT -8
And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.” John 6:35
Both “To Come” and “To Believe” are things we chose to do. We are not forced into to newness of life.
Jesus said, “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world”. John 6:51
Same story... we are not forced to eat.
When we take Jesus Christ spiritually by believing in Him and make Him a part of us, Jesus satisfies our hunger and gives us eternal life.
Jesus was speaking of His making atonement by His death and giving life to those who personally appropriate Him (John 6:63). Faith in Christ’s death brings eternal life.
This is the conclusion to Jesus’ exposition and exhortation, based on the manna incident from Exodus 16:4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day.
God's part was He provided the manna. Their part was they had to go out and gather it. God and man must both do something before a man can be saved. Calvinism denies the necessity of human action by twisting the Scriptures. No one, including God, can turn from sin for us, we must do it. No one can trust Christ "in our place," we must personally, knowingly, and willingly trust Him in order to be saved.
This is also a two way street in that rejecting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is not a passive "non-action," but a deliberate volitional choice. It is deliberately choosing to say "no" to Christ and "yes" to self and sin.
No one is "neutral" in respect to God and His authority. Unbelief is just as much a deliberate act of mind, heart, and will as is faith. This is what Jesus meant in John 5:40 when He said, "You will (you are deliberately making a choice) not to come to me." Yes, unbelief is an act of the will. In fact unbelief is active faith, but unfortunately it is faith in our self.
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Post by makesends on Jan 13, 2023 7:36:38 GMT -8
And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.” John 6:35 Both “To Come” and “To Believe” are things we chose to do. We are not forced into to newness of life. Jesus said, “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world”. John 6:51 Same story... we are not forced to eat. When we take Jesus Christ spiritually by believing in Him and make Him a part of us, Jesus satisfies our hunger and gives us eternal life. Jesus was speaking of His making atonement by His death and giving life to those who personally appropriate Him (John 6:63). Faith in Christ’s death brings eternal life. This is the conclusion to Jesus’ exposition and exhortation, based on the manna incident from Exodus 16:4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day. God's part was He provided the manna. Their part was they had to go out and gather it. God and man must both do something before a man can be saved. Calvinism denies the necessity of human action by twisting the Scriptures. No one, including God, can turn from sin for us, we must do it. No one can trust Christ "in our place," we must personally, knowingly, and willingly trust Him in order to be saved. This is also a two way street in that rejecting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is not a passive "non-action," but a deliberate volitional choice. It is deliberately choosing to say "no" to Christ and "yes" to self and sin. No one is "neutral" in respect to God and His authority. Unbelief is just as much a deliberate act of mind, heart, and will as is faith. This is what Jesus meant in John 5:40 when He said, "You will (you are deliberately making a choice) not to come to me." Yes, unbelief is an act of the will. In fact unbelief is active faith, but unfortunately it is faith in our self. I don't get this part, which I also keep hearing from Arminians in many forums: You said, "Both “To Come” and “To Believe” are things we chose to do. We are not forced into to newness of life." The first sentence is not evidence of the second (and I don't say this as though I believe or disbelieve either of the two sentences). What does forcing have to do with anything in the subject? Were we forced to be born? Forcing is what happens when someone holds a gun to your head. And even then a person makes a choice to do what they want for that short time while the gun is held to their head. The threat induces an immediate desire for life, which influences the choice. The threat effected a change to their inclinations, by which they choose. That is not how God changes the will. Being born again is no more forcing than being born the first time. I don't know of many Calvinists/Reformed who claim we don't chose to come nor to believe. Of course we choose! It is not only required that we believe —it is a natural result of the heart being changed, regenerated —of the inclinations of the heart having been changed by the heart itself having been changed by "new birth" by the Spirit of God— how could we NOT choose it! In fact it is GIVEN us to believe. Salvific faith is generated by the Holy Spirit within us as, (at least in my way of seeing it), and thus it is OURS, we having become one with him. To many what I just said sounds self-contradictory, but I am speaking of causation, not chronology. The one does not imply the other, with God. To me, that first section of your post is the destruction of a strawman. But with the last two paragraphs of your post, I agree wholeheartedly, concerning rejection of God as a deliberate act. For most, I fear, it has become a natural habit, though unlike most who claim something done subconsciously is not deliberate choice, I think the fallen nature continues within as blamable, in that we agree with it wholeheartedly, claiming it as our very selves, whether we consciously realize it is so, or not. Much to the consternation of atheists and the like, I say that the mere concept (see Romans 1) of the existence of God inevitably causes a reaction. We were made for him, he is our 'natural pursuit' (I say 'natural' there in the sense of 'according to the nature of our position as creatures', not in the Romans 7 and 8 sense of 'sinful'). Intuitively humans are cognizant, whether aware of it or not, that the existence of almighty creator obligates his creation to submission. And from THERE the reaction springs forth. All say, "NO! I am in charge! I am self-determining! I am my own!" until God changes their heart. |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Jan 13, 2023 11:31:15 GMT -8
And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.” John 6:35 Both “To Come” and “To Believe” are things we chose to do. We are not forced into to newness of life. Jesus said, “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world”. John 6:51 Same story... we are not forced to eat. When we take Jesus Christ spiritually by believing in Him and make Him a part of us, Jesus satisfies our hunger and gives us eternal life. Jesus was speaking of His making atonement by His death and giving life to those who personally appropriate Him (John 6:63). Faith in Christ’s death brings eternal life. This is the conclusion to Jesus’ exposition and exhortation, based on the manna incident from Exodus 16:4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day. God's part was He provided the manna. Their part was they had to go out and gather it. God and man must both do something before a man can be saved. Calvinism denies the necessity of human action by twisting the Scriptures. No one, including God, can turn from sin for us, we must do it. No one can trust Christ "in our place," we must personally, knowingly, and willingly trust Him in order to be saved. This is also a two way street in that rejecting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is not a passive "non-action," but a deliberate volitional choice. It is deliberately choosing to say "no" to Christ and "yes" to self and sin. No one is "neutral" in respect to God and His authority. Unbelief is just as much a deliberate act of mind, heart, and will as is faith. This is what Jesus meant in John 5:40 when He said, "You will (you are deliberately making a choice) not to come to me." Yes, unbelief is an act of the will. In fact unbelief is active faith, but unfortunately it is faith in our self. I don't get this part, which I also keep hearing from Arminians in many forums: You said, "Both “To Come” and “To Believe” are things we chose to do. We are not forced into to newness of life." The first sentence is not evidence of the second (and I don't say this as though I believe or disbelieve either of the two sentences). What does forcing have to do with anything in the subject? Were we forced to be born? Forcing is what happens when someone holds a gun to your head. And even then a person makes a choice to do what they want for that short time while the gun is held to their head. The threat induces an immediate desire for life, which influences the choice. The threat effected a change to their inclinations, by which they choose. That is not how God changes the will. Being born again is no more forcing than being born the first time. I don't know of many Calvinists/Reformed who claim we don't chose to come nor to believe. Of course we choose! It is not only required that we believe —it is a natural result of the heart being changed, regenerated —of the inclinations of the heart having been changed by the heart itself having been changed by "new birth" by the Spirit of God— how could we NOT choose it! In fact it is GIVEN us to believe. Salvific faith is generated by the Holy Spirit within us as, (at least in my way of seeing it), and thus it is OURS, we having become one with him. To many what I just said sounds self-contradictory, but I am speaking of causation, not chronology. The one does not imply the other, with God. To me, that first section of your post is the destruction of a strawman. But with the last two paragraphs of your post, I agree wholeheartedly, concerning rejection of God as a deliberate act. For most, I fear, it has become a natural habit, though unlike most who claim something done subconsciously is not deliberate choice, I think the fallen nature continues within as blamable, in that we agree with it wholeheartedly, claiming it as our very selves, whether we consciously realize it is so, or not. Much to the consternation of atheists and the like, I say that the mere concept (see Romans 1) of the existence of God inevitably causes a reaction. We were made for him, he is our 'natural pursuit' (I say 'natural' there in the sense of 'according to the nature of our position as creatures', not in the Romans 7 and 8 sense of 'sinful'). Intuitively humans are cognizant, whether aware of it or not, that the existence of almighty creator obligates his creation to submission. And from THERE the reaction springs forth. All say, "NO! I am in charge! I am self-determining! I am my own!" until God changes their heart. What a privilege you reserve for such a few. Must be nice to be one of a select few that somehow "impossibly" merited the Grace of God. For many years, it has surprised me just how oblivious some people are to the "special" distinction they afford themselves over their fellowman. They deny meriting God's Grace but describe a scenario and condition that can ONLY ARISE from a perspective of merit. Tell me, what value did God find in you opposed to your fellowman? I know you claim no merit for yourself. However, it is certainly true you've created a scenario wherein GOD finds merit in choosing you over another. Or do you believe God doesn't do things for a reason nor find value in His choices? |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Jan 13, 2023 11:48:49 GMT -8
And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.” John 6:35 Both “To Come” and “To Believe” are things we chose to do. We are not forced into to newness of life. Jesus said, “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world”. John 6:51 Same story... we are not forced to eat. When we take Jesus Christ spiritually by believing in Him and make Him a part of us, Jesus satisfies our hunger and gives us eternal life. Jesus was speaking of His making atonement by His death and giving life to those who personally appropriate Him (John 6:63). Faith in Christ’s death brings eternal life. This is the conclusion to Jesus’ exposition and exhortation, based on the manna incident from Exodus 16:4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day. God's part was He provided the manna. Their part was they had to go out and gather it. God and man must both do something before a man can be saved. Calvinism denies the necessity of human action by twisting the Scriptures. No one, including God, can turn from sin for us, we must do it. No one can trust Christ "in our place," we must personally, knowingly, and willingly trust Him in order to be saved. This is also a two way street in that rejecting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is not a passive "non-action," but a deliberate volitional choice. It is deliberately choosing to say "no" to Christ and "yes" to self and sin. No one is "neutral" in respect to God and His authority. Unbelief is just as much a deliberate act of mind, heart, and will as is faith. This is what Jesus meant in John 5:40 when He said, "You will (you are deliberately making a choice) not to come to me." Yes, unbelief is an act of the will. In fact unbelief is active faith, but unfortunately it is faith in our self. Does God increase our faith? |
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Post by Theophilus on Jan 13, 2023 14:54:33 GMT -8
Does God increase our faith? I would say yes. Our faith should keep growing all our lives; we should trust God more consistently and more extensively as we mature in Christ. Faith in God is not a static thing, it's alive. 2 Thessalonians 1:3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; Acts 16:5 So the churches were being strengthened in the faith, and were increasing in number daily. 2 Corinthians 10:15 not boasting beyond our measure, that is, in other men’s labors, but with the hope that as your faith grows, we will be, within our sphere, enlarged even more by you, Revelation 2:19 ‘I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first. Matthew 6:28-30 And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith! Grow in Faith |
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Post by Theophilus on Jan 13, 2023 15:50:14 GMT -8
And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.” John 6:35 Both “To Come” and “To Believe” are things we chose to do. We are not forced into to newness of life. Jesus said, “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world”. John 6:51 Same story... we are not forced to eat. When we take Jesus Christ spiritually by believing in Him and make Him a part of us, Jesus satisfies our hunger and gives us eternal life. Jesus was speaking of His making atonement by His death and giving life to those who personally appropriate Him (John 6:63). Faith in Christ’s death brings eternal life. This is the conclusion to Jesus’ exposition and exhortation, based on the manna incident from Exodus 16:4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day. God's part was He provided the manna. Their part was they had to go out and gather it. God and man must both do something before a man can be saved. Calvinism denies the necessity of human action by twisting the Scriptures. No one, including God, can turn from sin for us, we must do it. No one can trust Christ "in our place," we must personally, knowingly, and willingly trust Him in order to be saved. This is also a two way street in that rejecting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is not a passive "non-action," but a deliberate volitional choice. It is deliberately choosing to say "no" to Christ and "yes" to self and sin. No one is "neutral" in respect to God and His authority. Unbelief is just as much a deliberate act of mind, heart, and will as is faith. This is what Jesus meant in John 5:40 when He said, "You will (you are deliberately making a choice) not to come to me." Yes, unbelief is an act of the will. In fact unbelief is active faith, but unfortunately it is faith in our self. I don't get this part, which I also keep hearing from Arminians in many forums: You said, "Both “To Come” and “To Believe” are things we chose to do. We are not forced into to newness of life." The first sentence is not evidence of the second (and I don't say this as though I believe or disbelieve either of the two sentences). What does forcing have to do with anything in the subject? Were we forced to be born? Forcing is what happens when someone holds a gun to your head. And even then a person makes a choice to do what they want for that short time while the gun is held to their head. The threat induces an immediate desire for life, which influences the choice. The threat effected a change to their inclinations, by which they choose. That is not how God changes the will. Being born again is no more forcing than being born the first time. I don't know of many Calvinists/Reformed who claim we don't chose to come nor to believe. Of course we choose! It is not only required that we believe —it is a natural result of the heart being changed, regenerated —of the inclinations of the heart having been changed by the heart itself having been changed by "new birth" by the Spirit of God— how could we NOT choose it! In fact it is GIVEN us to believe. Salvific faith is generated by the Holy Spirit within us as, (at least in my way of seeing it), and thus it is OURS, we having become one with him. To many what I just said sounds self-contradictory, but I am speaking of causation, not chronology. The one does not imply the other, with God. To me, that first section of your post is the destruction of a strawman. But with the last two paragraphs of your post, I agree wholeheartedly, concerning rejection of God as a deliberate act. For most, I fear, it has become a natural habit, though unlike most who claim something done subconsciously is not deliberate choice, I think the fallen nature continues within as blamable, in that we agree with it wholeheartedly, claiming it as our very selves, whether we consciously realize it is so, or not. Much to the consternation of atheists and the like, I say that the mere concept (see Romans 1) of the existence of God inevitably causes a reaction. We were made for him, he is our 'natural pursuit' (I say 'natural' there in the sense of 'according to the nature of our position as creatures', not in the Romans 7 and 8 sense of 'sinful'). Intuitively humans are cognizant, whether aware of it or not, that the existence of almighty creator obligates his creation to submission. And from THERE the reaction springs forth. All say, "NO! I am in charge! I am self-determining! I am my own!" until God changes their heart. Thanks for the reply and taking the time to share your thoughts. |
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