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Post by rockson on Jan 20, 2023 23:39:40 GMT -8
Is there faith in the Calvinist system? A Calvinist poster stated they tell a sinner that Jesus came to save his people from their sins. I'd say that right there demonstrates they're not giving the sinner by what they say as an ambassador any real FAITH.
They're giving them HOPE but not FAITH. Jesus Christ came and saved his people from their sins. How many people? How do they know who hear this they're one of the especially blessed? They can't. All they can have is HOPE. Now hope is a wonderful biblical thing we have the hope of the return of Jesus Christ but FAITH and HOPE when it comes to salvation is different.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:1
FAITH is substantial. Hope is not. Hope is a good thing but it is not faith. And to prove that 1 Cor 13: 13 states,
And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love. 1 Cor 13:13
Not these two but these THREE!
In order for anyone's message to have FAITH it must come across that it's substantial for all.
I'll explain it this way. A wealthy man announces to a crowd of 100 I'm able to give $1000 dollars to everyone here. How many can have (substantial) FAITH they're going to get it. NONE. Faith doesn't rest on just knowing one's ability. The will needs to be expressed what the one is willing to do. He now states, "I'm able to give 70 of you $1000 dollars." How many can have (substantial) FAITH for it? None of them. They can hope they're going to be one of lucky ones but they can't have substantial FAITH. NOW he states, "I'm able to give 100 of you $1000 dollars and I am going to do it" How many now can have substantial FAITH? ALL OF THEM! They're now in the realm of FAITH! The only thing that needs to be addressed is the wealthy man a good character and does he keep his word? Well we KNOW God does!
So there you have it....FAITH
Now a shocking things I'm going to say to Calvinists here. There really is no FAITH in the Calvinist paradigm, that is not in any real true sense of the word. Those who hear Calvinists say God came to save his people from their sins is like saying I'm able to give 70 of you 100, $1000 dollars. They can hope they'll be one of the lucky ones but FAITH? NO. Just hope and not faith.
Now Romans 10 calls the gospel the Word of Faith! Get this and don't let go of it. That therefore means salvation must be for ALL in the same way it's only a message of FAITH is the one says I'm able to give 100 of you $1000 dollars AND...AND I'm going to do it. If they know your word is good and honorable they now have FAITH.
When God said he so loved the world he did not say just the especially blessed. But ALL! And because he said that ALL can have FAITH. I'd say woe to the one who seeks to strip it away from others.
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Post by civic on Jan 21, 2023 4:37:47 GMT -8
Is there faith in the Calvinist system? A Calvinist poster stated they tell a sinner that Jesus came to save his people from their sins. I'd say that right there demonstrates they're not giving the sinner by what they say as an ambassador any real FAITH. They're giving them HOPE but not FAITH. Jesus Christ came and saved his people from their sins. How many people? How do they know who hear this they're one of the especially blessed? They can't. All they can have is HOPE. Now hope is a wonderful biblical thing we have the hope of the return of Jesus Christ but FAITH and HOPE when it comes to salvation is different. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:1 FAITH is substantial. Hope is not. Hope is a good thing but it is not faith. And to prove that 1 Cor 13: 13 states, And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love. 1 Cor 13:13 Not these two but these THREE! In order for anyone's message to have FAITH it must come across that it's substantial for all. I'll explain it this way. A wealthy man announces to a crowd of 100 I'm able to give $1000 dollars to everyone here. How many can have (substantial) FAITH they're going to get it. NONE. Faith doesn't rest on just knowing one's ability. The will needs to be expressed what the one is willing to do. He now states, "I'm able to give 70 of you $1000 dollars." How many can have (substantial) FAITH for it? None of them. They can hope they're going to be one of lucky ones but they can't have substantial FAITH. NOW he states, "I'm able to give 100 of you $1000 dollars and I am going to do it" How many now can have substantial FAITH? ALL OF THEM! They're now in the realm of FAITH! The only thing that needs to be addressed is the wealthy man a good character and does he keep his word? Well we KNOW God does! So there you have it....FAITH Now a shocking things I'm going to say to Calvinists here. There really is no FAITH in the Calvinist paradigm, that is not in any real true sense of the word. Those who hear Calvinists say God came to save his people from their sins is like saying I'm able to give 70 of you 100, $1000 dollars. They can hope they'll be one of the lucky ones but FAITH? NO. Just hope and not faith. Now Romans 10 calls the gospel the Word of Faith! Get this and don't let go of it. That therefore means salvation must be for ALL in the same way it's only a message of FAITH is the one says I'm able to give 100 of you $1000 dollars AND...AND I'm going to do it. If they know your word is good and honorable they now have FAITH. When God said he so loved the world he did not say just the especially blessed. But ALL! And because he said that ALL can have FAITH. I'd say woe to the one who seeks to strip it away from others. With many calvinists on the other site by their own testimony I would say no. As a former Calvinist I believed faith was a gift but it was my own faith that God enabled me to have. Now I see it much differently as I read Jesus who has all authority taught in the gospels. He always refereed to the faith of unbelievers that it was their own faith that healed them and saved them. It was not the faith that He gave them. And in doing this I'm not denying Gods grace precedes anything on the part of man coming after God or believing in Him. And is sad that they delete good posts/threads that challenge calvinism. Its a bias and a fear. By all means challenge anything I post or believe and we can discuss it as adults and have a fruitful dialogue and hopefully we will both learn something through that discussion as iron sharpens iron. And the fact is no two people on this earth agree 100% with everything. We all see some things differently. The hope is we all see things in unity when it comes to the essential/core doctrines of the faith and even then we still might see it a bit different even though we uphold the doctrine for instance with the Trinity. |
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Post by rockson on Jan 21, 2023 6:16:43 GMT -8
They have now banned me on CARM they say until the 24th so a short ban. Ha, I know I was asking for it when I sent them a couple of private messages and questioned what they did on the open board but I'm good with that in this case.
I thought the OP could generate some good discussion and what's so horrible about asking where's the FAITH in their presentation to the lost? They could tell me where and then the discourse could begin. Looks like they wouldn't allow it.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 21, 2023 6:37:41 GMT -8
God’s Word declares that the gospel, which is “the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth” (Romans 1: 16), is “good tidings of great joy,” not just to certain elect, but “to all people” (Luke 2:10). Sadly, the insistence that only a select group have been elected to salvation is not “good tidings of great joy to all people”! How can such a doctrine be biblical?
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Post by Theophilus on Jan 21, 2023 8:08:07 GMT -8
The way Calvinism is set up many theologians would object to the statement that salvation is by faith can be found there.
Since election is unconditional (and must be so for God to be sovereign), it follows that salvation—in the broadest sense of the word—rests in the decree of God and not on the individual’s faith. It is His plan of salvation. But why would God in his sovereignty only choose a small percentage of his creation for salvation?
According to Calvinism the atonement was intended to save only the elect and is applied efficaciously to them by the gracious work of the Holy Spirit, it follows that salvation—still in the broad sense—is by atonement and grace rather than by faith. But that is clearly not what the Bible teaches.
Under the calvinist system, since man’s depravity is so total that he is utterly dead and unable to respond to the gospel until regenerated, it follows that salvation is to faith rather than by faith.
Their faith is that they are one of the Elect. If you have faith to believe you're one of the elect, then you have salvation.
It's man made and not Biblical. To be a consistent Calvinist, a person must believe the Bible teaches God limits his redemptive love toward his creation, and that limited love is more reflective of God being the sum of perfect love than God extending his salvational love to all of his creation. Of course, the perennial problem with the Calvinist’s perspective is the explicit claims of Scripture to the contrary.
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Post by Parker on Jan 21, 2023 14:18:27 GMT -8
Faith and hope are not the same thing. Hebrews 11:1 says that “faith is the assurance of things hoped for.” So clearly faith has an assurance that hope doesn’t have. Hope is always saying “maybe,” but faith is always very confident. Much more confident than is hope. What is the difference between faith and hope? | GotQuestions.org Hope, it would seem, is a psychological necessity, if man is to envisage the future at all. Even if there are no rational grounds for it, man still continues to hope. Very naturally such hope, even when it appears to be justified, is transient and illusory; and it is remarkable how often it is qualified by poets and other writers by such epithets as ‘faint’, ‘trembling’, ‘feeble’, ‘desperate’, ‘phantom’. The Bible sometimes uses hope in the conventional sense. The ploughman, for example, should plough in hope (1 Cor. 9:10), for it is the hope of reward that sweetens labour. But for the most part the hope with which the Bible is concerned is something very different; and in comparison with it other hope is scarcely recognized as hope. The majority of secular thinkers in the ancient world did not regard hope as a virtue, but merely as a temporary illusion; and Paul was giving an accurate description of pagans when he said they had no hope (Eph. 2:12; cf. 1 Thes. 4:13), the fundamental reason for this being that they were ‘without God’. Where there is a belief in the living God, who acts and intervenes in human life and who can be trusted to implement his promises, hope in the specifically biblical sense becomes possible. Such hope is not a matter of temperament, nor is it conditioned by prevailing circumstances or any human possibilities. It does not depend upon what a man possesses, upon what he may be able to do for himself, nor upon what any other human being may do for him. There was, for example, nothing in the situation in which Abraham found himself to justify his hope that Sarah would give birth to a son, but because he believed in God, he could ‘in hope’ believe ‘against hope’ (Rom. 4:18). Biblical hope is inseparable therefore from faith in God. Because of what God has done in the past, particularly in preparing for the coming of Christ, and because of what God has done and is now doing through Christ, the Christian dares to expect future blessings at present invisible (2 Cor. 1:10). The goodness of God is for him never exhausted. The best is still to be. His hope is increased as he reflects on the activities of God in the Scriptures (Rom. 12:12; 15:4). Christ in him is the hope of future glory (Col. 1:27). His final salvation rests on such hope (Rom. 8:24); and this hope of salvation is a ‘helmet’, an essential part of his defensive armour in the struggle against evil (1 Thes. 5:8). Hope, to be sure, is not a kite at the mercy of the changing winds, but ‘a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul’, penetrating deep into the invisible eternal world (Heb. 6:19). Because of his faith the Christian has an assurance that the things he hopes for are real (Heb. 11:1); and his hope never disappoints him (Rom. 5:5). There are no explicit references to hope in the teaching of Jesus. He teaches his disciples, however, not to be anxious about the future, because that future is in the hands of a loving Father. He also leads them to expect that after his resurrection renewed spiritual power will be available for them, enabling them to do even greater works than he did, to overcome sin and death, and to look forward to sharing his own eternal glory. The resurrection of Jesus revitalized their hope. It was the mightiest act of God wrought in history. Before it ‘panic, despair flee away’. Christian faith is essentially faith in God who raised Jesus from the dead (1 Pet. 1:21). This God towards whom the Christian directs his faith is called ‘the God of hope’, who can fill the believer with joy and peace, and enable him to abound in hope (Rom. 15:13). Because of the resurrection, the Christian is saved from the miserable condition of having his hope in Christ limited to this world only (1 Cor. 15:19). Christ Jesus is his Hope for time and eternity (1 Tim. 1:1). His call to be Christ’s disciple carries with it the hope of finally sharing his glory (Eph. 1:18). His hope is laid up for him in heaven (Col. 1:5) and will be realized when his Lord is revealed (1 Pet. 1:13). The existence of this hope makes it impossible for the Christian to be satisfied with transient joys (Heb. 13:14); it also acts as a stimulus to purity of life (1 Jn. 3:2–3) and enables him to suffer cheerfully. It is noticeable how often hope is associated in the NT with ‘patience’ or ‘steadfastness’. This virtue is vastly different from Stoic endurance, precisely because it is bound up with a hope unknown to the Stoic (see 1 Thes. 1:3; Rom. 5:3–5). In the light of what has been said it is not surprising that hope should so often be mentioned as a concomitant of faith. The heroes of faith in Heb. 11 are also beacons of hope. What is perhaps more remarkable is the frequent association of hope with love as well as with faith. This threefold combination of faith, hope and love is found in 1 Thes. 1:3; 5:8; Gal. 5:5–6; 1 Cor. 13:13; Heb. 6:10–12; 1 Pet. 1:21–22. By its connection with love, Christian hope is freed from all selfishness. The Christian does not hope for blessings for himself which he does not desire others to share. When he loves his fellow-men he hopes that they will be the recipients of the good things that he knows God longs to give them. Paul gave evidence of his hope just as much as his love and his faith when he returned the runaway slave Onesimus to his master Philemon. Faith, hope and love are thus inseparable. Hope cannot exist apart from faith, and love cannot be exercised without hope. These three are the things that abide (1 Cor. 13:13) and together they comprise the Christian way of life. From New Bible Dictionary by D. R. W. Wood |
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 21, 2023 17:05:49 GMT -8
Where does faith come from? Calvinist believe that since unregenerate people are “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph 2:1), and have had their minds darkened or blinded because of total depravity (Eph 4:18; 2 Cor 3:14), they cannot do anything good, including believing in Jesus for eternal life. Those who hold to this view teach that if a person is going to believe in Jesus for eternal life (or even believe anything good and pleasing about God at all), they can only believe if God sovereignly bestowed up them the gift of faith. But where does this faith come from? The Bible specifies the way, or the means, that God gives faith to people. “Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ” (Romans 10:17). It is the Word of God that produces faith. Someone could receive faith while hearing a sermon teaching the gospel, someone else by reading about Jesus in the Bible—any time the true gospel of Jesus is communicated, there is potential for faith. Here is a pretty good answer from got questions. |
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Post by civic on Jan 21, 2023 18:06:13 GMT -8
They have now banned me on CARM they say until the 24th so a short ban. Ha, I know I was asking for it when I sent them a couple of private messages and questioned what they did on the open board but I'm good with that in this case. I thought the OP could generate some good discussion and what's so horrible about asking where's the FAITH in their presentation to the lost? They could tell me where and then the discourse could begin. Looks like they wouldn't allow it. Its censorship and biased moderation. You have challenged their idol and that is how they retaliate. You cannot question them or you get banned. Being challenged is a good thing and everyone should be able to be challenged. When Diane was still alive and the main moderator I challenged her often on decisions, some I won and others I lost but she was fair. After she went to be with the Lord the moderation went right down the tubes. I have lots of saved email exchanges between us and with 4him who has recently been harassing me by email making false slanderous accusations. She has no business as a moderator and is to emotionally involved. PS- they lurk here so I'm sure this post will get back to her and she will send me a barrage of emails harassing me again. |
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Post by rockson on Jan 21, 2023 23:51:57 GMT -8
In other words it's a system in which they are totally and absolutely passive. When it says when one believes and is baptized they shall be saved, they don't believe Jesus meant that to say one needs to encourage them to do so. If one is believing that's just a sign God imparted all that to them. And I agree not scriptural. Men must take action to believe. So really it seems they separate the message of the gospel as having anything to do in producing faith. The bible says, "Faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Rm 1:17 In another post here in a couple of days, Lord willing, I'm going to put forth just why it takes hearing to have FAITH for salvation. What's really behind it all or the thing Calvinists have totally overlooked in my opinion . |
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Post by rockson on Jan 22, 2023 0:31:22 GMT -8
They have now banned me on "the other place" they say until the 24th so a short ban. Ha, I know I was asking for it when I sent them a couple of private messages and questioned what they did on the open board but I'm good with that in this case. I thought the OP could generate some good discussion and what's so horrible about asking where's the FAITH in their presentation to the lost? They could tell me where and then the discourse could begin. Looks like they wouldn't allow it. I have to agree as well. I don't even mind some bias nobody is perfect but I think "the other place" has lost it to those who know anything about them. They want Calvinism to always come out on top and when they see they're struggling it seems they bring down their non-Calvinists numbers. At least to me if it seems that. I was a mod on one big site and we didn't mind people questioning our decisions depending on the attitude by which they did so. We'd even have meetings reassessing our position and at times we'd modify things in favor of the one questioning. I think most knew we were trying our best and weren't always perfect. I'm not even sure I'll go back there after my ban is over. I might that is if they don't ban me forever for what I've shared here.  I don't really care too much and I'd wish them all the best that is that they'd reconsider Calvinism. Might be my time to move on though. We'll see. |
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Post by civic on Jan 22, 2023 4:47:27 GMT -8
I have to agree as well. I don't even mind some bias nobody is perfect but I think "the other place" has lost it to those who know anything about them. They want Calvinism to always come out on top and when they see they're struggling it seems they bring down their non-Calvinists numbers. At least to me if it seems that. I was a mod on one big site and we didn't mind people questioning our decisions depending on the attitude by which they did so. We'd even have meetings reassessing our position and at times we'd modify things in favor of the one questioning. I think most knew we were trying our best and weren't always perfect. This other web site though doesn't even seek much to answer any private messages regardless of how much diplomacy and kind speech one uses. Could be their short staffed with mods not showing up to serve, I don't know. How important their reputation on the internet is to them hard to say. They may not care at all and might receive comments at meetings he's at asking why they're so unfair with his mod team. Might not be important to him either. I am surprise at the numbers that frequent that site on all other subjects. Catholicism threads and other things are always buzzing with much participation. I'm thinking they really probably don't deserve the traffic they get. Oh well. I'm not even sure I'll go back there after my ban is over. I might that is if they don't ban me forever for what I've shared here. I don't really care too much and I'd wish them all the best that is that they'd reconsider Calvinism. Might be my time to move on though. We'll see. I can think of at-least a dozen people that share the same experience on that A/C forum. |
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Post by Admin on Jan 22, 2023 5:34:34 GMT -8
This is exactly the reason we started this forum. But just one thing, I don't think it's a good idea to use their name so I'm going to edit a couple of posts and change their name to "the other place" Just so they can't complain to Pro boards that we are bad-mouthing them. I was at the other place for 15 years and I'm definitely not going back!
17. YOUR RESPONSIBILITY FOR DEFAMATORY COMMENTS
You agree and understand that you may be held legally responsible for damages suffered by other Website members or third-parties as the result of Your remarks, information, feedback or other content posted or made available on the Website that is deemed defamatory or otherwise legally actionable. Under the Federal Communications Decency Act of 1996, ProBoards is not legally responsible, nor can it be held liable for damages of any kind, arising out of or in connection to any defamatory or otherwise legally actionable remarks, information, feedback or other content posted or made available on the Website.
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Post by leatherneck0311 on Jan 22, 2023 9:24:09 GMT -8
I picked up another 3 day ban from the other place because I refuse to stop calling Calvinism what it is which is a heavenly lottery. We all need to pray for them. Changing the gospel with Calvinistic qualifiers IMO is blasphemy. Keep the Son in your eyes.
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I don't really care too much and I'd wish them all the best that is that they'd reconsider Calvinism. Might be my time to move on though. We'll see. 
