|
|
Post by leatherneck0311 on Jan 22, 2023 21:22:23 GMT -8
1.God preordained Satan to rebel against Him. 2God preordained Adam to disobey Him. 3.God planned evil. 4.God chose who would be saved and who would be condemned before He created the heavens and earth. 5 In John 3:16 world does not mean everyone it only means the elect. Even though in elect Israel not everyone was saved 6. In John 3:16 whosoever believes only means the elect even though in elect Israel not everyone was saved. 7. In 1 John 2:2 According to Calvinist Jesus’ propitiation was only for the elect even though the verse specifically says Jesus’ propitiation was for the whole world. 8. All does not mean all it only means the elect, and yet the Holy Spirit directed the writer to write all. 9. God preordains men to commit evil even though James says God cannot be tempted to commit evil neither does God tempt men to commit evil. 10. When Calvinist are challenged to quote one verse of scripture where Jesus taught election they cannot , in context, produce one verse. The only conclusion in one that thirst for Jesus (truth) is that Calvinism has changed the good news of Jesus who taught come and take in Matthew 11:28,29 to unless elected you cannot believe, place your faith in Jesus repent and follow Him ,and left the truth by proof texting, distorting Context, and becoming like the Pharisees who Jesus said were like a freshly painted tomb all pretty on the outside and full of rotting putrid flesh on the inside. Revelation 22:17 the Spirit and Bride say come and take and drink of the water of life freely. God loves you. Jesus died for you. The Holy Spirit calls and draws you to the truth of God’s love and the forgiveness that is only provided by you believing and placing your faith in Jesus. God’s grace is offered if you reject God’s grace and forgiveness for the lies Satan provides through any man made doctrine you forfeit eternal life with God.
|
|
|
|
Post by praiseyeshua on Jan 23, 2023 5:50:52 GMT -8
I've heard many of the same arguments. My pennies....
1. Some do. Some believe in secondary cause. Satan wouldn't exist without the Providence of God. Satan rebelled.
2. Before this world ever existed, it was the purpose of God to Glorify His Son. Jesus Christ. Again. Secondary cause is that Adam loved Eve more than He loved God.
3. God took Satan and man in their own craftiness. Evil has no power OVER God. There are many things more important that evil. Evil is the result of the secondary cause of freedom.
4. God chose His Son. This is primary cause. The ONLY ONE properly NAMED. All those who freely embrace the Benevolent work of Jesus Christ are not condemned. They are the beneficiaries of God's work in Jesus Christ.
5. Yeah. That is rather ridiculous argument.
6. Yeah. That is a bad reasoning.
7. All men are judged based upon their relationship to the Wonderous work of Jesus Christ. The very fact that Jesus died for all men is the very condemnation that establishes judgements against men. He that has trodden underfoot the Son of Man...
8. All can definitely be a references to all of a kind. However, there is only one KIND... of man. All men are equal.
9. Some men have more opportunity and exposure to the Gospel. Some men are taught to believe in God by those who love them and Him. This is the very epitome of "faith to faith". Timothy is a perfect example.
10. That is because HE WAS THE ELECT of God. Yes. Jesus taught election.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
|
|
|
|
Post by civic on Jan 23, 2023 6:21:56 GMT -8
1.God preordained Satan to rebel against Him. 2God preordained Adam to disobey Him. 3.God planned evil. 4.God chose who would be saved and who would be condemned before He created the heavens and earth. 5 In John 3:16 world does not mean everyone it only means the elect. Even though in elect Israel not everyone was saved 6. In John 3:16 whosoever believes only means the elect even though in elect Israel not everyone was saved. 7. In 1 John 2:2 According to Calvinist Jesus’ propitiation was only for the elect even though the verse specifically says Jesus’ propitiation was for the whole world. 8. All does not mean all it only means the elect, and yet the Holy Spirit directed the writer to write all. 9. God preordains men to commit evil even though James says God cannot be tempted to commit evil neither does God tempt men to commit evil. 10. When Calvinist are challenged to quote one verse of scripture where Jesus taught election they cannot , in context, produce one verse. The only conclusion in one that thirst for Jesus (truth) is that Calvinism has changed the good news of Jesus who taught come and take in Matthew 11:28,29 to unless elected you cannot believe, place your faith in Jesus repent and follow Him ,and left the truth by proof texting, distorting Context, and becoming like the Pharisees who Jesus said were like a freshly painted tomb all pretty on the outside and full of rotting putrid flesh on the inside. Revelation 22:17 the Spirit and Bride say come and take and drink of the water of life freely. God loves you. Jesus died for you. The Holy Spirit calls and draws you to the truth of God’s love and the forgiveness that is only provided by you believing and placing your faith in Jesus. God’s grace is offered if you reject God’s grace and forgiveness for the lies Satan provides through any man made doctrine you forfeit eternal life with God. Yes those are common and then toss tulip into the mix with divine determinism/fatalism. And what led me out of Calvinism ( the straw the broke the camels back) was that its an assault on the character and nature of God at its very core. Many of the things taught in Calvinism are very unloving since in their systematic God chose some for salvation and the majority for condemnation before creation. That to any normal person is unloving, uncharitable, unkind and unimaginable. If you are a parent had the ability to save all 10 of you children in the fire but chose to save only 2 of them how is that loving ? This is the picture they paint with our God who could of saved all but chose to only save some and let the other burn and suffer for all eternity with no choose to escape the fire that God preordained for them to be in that house with the fire He caused to happen. |
|
|
|
Post by Theophilus on Jan 23, 2023 8:57:27 GMT -8
God’s Word declares that the gospel, which is “the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth” (Romans 1: 16), is “good tidings of great joy,” not just to certain elect, but “to all people” (Luke 2:10). Sadly, the insistence that only a select group have been elected to salvation is not “good tidings of great joy to all people”! How can such a doctrine be biblical?
|
|
|
|
Post by civic on Jan 23, 2023 9:26:19 GMT -8
God’s Word declares that the gospel, which is “the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth” (Romans 1: 16), is “good tidings of great joy,” not just to certain elect, but “to all people” (Luke 2:10). Sadly, the insistence that only a select group have been elected to salvation is not “good tidings of great joy to all people”! How can such a doctrine be biblical? Agreed brother it is unbiblical. When you think about how God contrasts the Spirit and the flesh in the N.T. we can see several things within that particular theology appeals to the flesh, ego, pride, macho man carnality especially online where most of us discuss these things. It takes on a much different tune in person, on the phone or in the church fellowship. As a former calvinist I had many strong relationships/friendships with non calvinists. I still have great relationships as a non calvinist with calvinists. I'm working with 2 calvinists on Saturday mornings. Two of us are not calvinists and two of us are calvinists. So we are going into a deep dive into the Person of Christ right now and will tie this into the Trinity as we go along in our studies. I will not be attacking calvinism and when they ask questions about why I think a certain way then I will explain it to them. They know my story and we have discussed it at length but not within the group just as individual one on one discussions. I'm not pushing them one way or the other and leaving that up to the conviction of the Holy Spirit to lead and guide them into a solid foundation on the nature of God. As I always say these days Theology begins with the character and nature of God and our doctrines must flow from that understanding about God. The great thing is the group is onboard with that principle as our foundation for this study. hope this helps !!! |
|
|
|
Post by Theophilus on Jan 23, 2023 10:37:13 GMT -8
That sounds like a really good approach when dealing with Calvinism. Just stick with the facts when asked rather than trying to change someone's Theology. And just let the holy spirit reveal it to them.
One thing to keep in mind is If no Christian theologian for the first several centuries of church history taught a particular doctrine, then that particular doctrine is probably fallacious and should be rejected.
Case in point is Calvinism which didn't start till the 16th century. One would think that limited atonement would rear its ugly head before that.
|
|
|
|
Post by civic on Jan 23, 2023 11:20:09 GMT -8
That sounds like a really good approach when dealing with Calvinism. Just stick with the facts when asked rather than trying to change someone's Theology. And just let the holy spirit reveal it to them. One thing to keep in mind is If no Christian theologian for the first several centuries of church history taught a particular doctrine, then that particular doctrine is probably fallacious and should be rejected. Case in point is Calvinism which didn't start till the 16th century. One would think that limited atonement would rear its ugly head before that. Yes history would disprove many of their doctrines not affirm them . The same with determinism , free will , their biased view on sovereignty and many other distinctive’s within their systematic. |
|
|
|
Post by Obadiah on Jan 23, 2023 14:53:08 GMT -8
That sounds like a really good approach when dealing with Calvinism. Just stick with the facts when asked rather than trying to change someone's Theology. And just let the holy spirit reveal it to them. One thing to keep in mind is If no Christian theologian for the first several centuries of church history taught a particular doctrine, then that particular doctrine is probably fallacious and should be rejected. Case in point is Calvinism which didn't start till the 16th century. One would think that limited atonement would rear its ugly head before that. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17It’s impossible to have faith unless the mind embraces the information which comprises the gospel message. There are specific facts which must be embraced. You must gain the right perception about Jesus. Then you have really perceived something Life-changing. And that “something” is the facts of the gospel message—objective, quantifiable, expressible information that Jesus is who He says He is And He will accomplish what he said He's going to do. The Bible speaks about false gospels, which means someone has the facts wrong, purposefully or accidentally. So the truth is what has to be perceived and received as “step one” in gaining faith. And that truth comes by hearing the Word of God. It can come from someone witnessing, Preaching the Word, or reading the Bible. Which is Living Word. Jesus said that at the cross He would draw all men to Himself. At The Cross is where we make a decision. If Jesus Christ is lifted up, the Spirit of God will create a conscious need of Him. Behind the preaching of the Gospel is the creative Redemption of God at work in the souls of men. Sadly, as we know many choose not to believe the gospel. John 12:37 Though He had done so many signs before. them, yet they did not believe in Him. |
|
|
|
Post by civic on Jan 23, 2023 15:04:11 GMT -8
That sounds like a really good approach when dealing with Calvinism. Just stick with the facts when asked rather than trying to change someone's Theology. And just let the holy spirit reveal it to them. One thing to keep in mind is If no Christian theologian for the first several centuries of church history taught a particular doctrine, then that particular doctrine is probably fallacious and should be rejected. Case in point is Calvinism which didn't start till the 16th century. One would think that limited atonement would rear its ugly head before that. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17It’s impossible to have faith unless the mind embraces the information which comprises the gospel message. There are specific facts which must be embraced. You must gain the right perception about Jesus. Then you have really perceived something Life-changing. And that “something” is the facts of the gospel message—objective, quantifiable, expressible information that Jesus is who He says He is And He will accomplish what he said He's going to do. The Bible speaks about false gospels, which means someone has the facts wrong, purposefully or accidentally. So the truth is what has to be perceived and received as “step one” in gaining faith. And that truth comes by hearing the Word of God. It can come from someone witnessing, Preaching the Word, or reading the Bible. Which is Living Word. Jesus said that at the cross He would draw all men to Himself. At The Cross is where we make a decision. If Jesus Christ is lifted up, the Spirit of God will create a conscious need of Him. Behind the preaching of the Gospel is the creative Redemption of God at work in the souls of men. Sadly, as we know many choose not to believe the gospel. John 12:37 Though He had done so many signs before. them, yet they did not believe in Him. Ditto |
|
|
|
Post by civic on Jan 23, 2023 15:05:21 GMT -8
That sounds like a really good approach when dealing with Calvinism. Just stick with the facts when asked rather than trying to change someone's Theology. And just let the holy spirit reveal it to them. One thing to keep in mind is If no Christian theologian for the first several centuries of church history taught a particular doctrine, then that particular doctrine is probably fallacious and should be rejected. Case in point is Calvinism which didn't start till the 16th century. One would think that limited atonement would rear its ugly head before that. I see you are giving them a run for their money at the other place . Great job brother !!! |
|
|
|
Post by Theophilus on Jan 23, 2023 15:56:21 GMT -8
That sounds like a really good approach when dealing with Calvinism. Just stick with the facts when asked rather than trying to change someone's Theology. And just let the holy spirit reveal it to them. One thing to keep in mind is If no Christian theologian for the first several centuries of church history taught a particular doctrine, then that particular doctrine is probably fallacious and should be rejected. Case in point is Calvinism which didn't start till the 16th century. One would think that limited atonement would rear its ugly head before that. I see you are giving them a run for their money at the other place . Great job brother !!! Yeah they love me over there. They think I'm you. lol |
|
|
|
Post by civic on Jan 23, 2023 16:06:29 GMT -8
I see you are giving them a run for their money at the other place . Great job brother !!! Yeah they love me over there. They think I'm you. lol It sure is a case of paranoia over yonder in that pumpkin 🎃 patch full of thorns and thistles 😅. They have accused at the least a dozen or so people of being me with their sock puppet references . A moderator even emailed me with the sick puppet references. It’s actually very crazy verging on insanity . The troublesome pt4 is still calling me you rofl . He stalks us over here lol then accuses everyone on here who posts there of being me. It’s crazy how people like him hide behind an identity . If they were to be accountable with their real names and their church could see then their behavior would be much different without the anonymity. They have their own “ sock puppets” over there with both the mod and trouble maker having the same “ 4 “ in their names a dead giveaway using the same “ sock puppet” language and one claiming to be female and the other male to hide their true identities. But they both use insulting ad hominem attacks which is a giant red flag and many of the same phrases . |
|
|
|
Post by rockson on Jan 26, 2023 11:53:48 GMT -8
The first line of the OP is, God preordained Satan to rebel against Him.
That must be what Calvinists believe. I think they fail to consider that if God preordained it as something HE WANTED that therefore would mean God walked out of LOVE.
|
|
|
|
Post by rockson on Jan 26, 2023 12:13:42 GMT -8
Yeah they love me over there. They think I'm you. lol They have accused at the least a dozen or so people of being me with their sock puppet references . Hahah...well that's quite a compliment. That would mean you single handedly are giving all the Calvinists over there a hard time. Maybe they wake up in the middle of the night, pull back the blinds and seeing a car drive by they worry, "Maybe that's Civic!" |
|
|
|
Post by civic on Jan 26, 2023 13:01:32 GMT -8
The first line of the OP is, God preordained Satan to rebel against Him. That must be what Calvinists believe. I think they fail to consider that if God preordained it as something HE WANTED that therefore would mean God walked out of LOVE. Yes indeed it’s flip flopping like a fish out of water . |
|
