nahum
New Member
Posts: 23
|
Post by nahum on Aug 14, 2022 1:09:27 GMT -8
"My understanding is the OT saints were not born from above because the NT had not been instituted." This is correct. The gift of the Holy Spirit could only be given after the ascension of Christ, and it is the Holy Spirit who regenerates the sinner. Thus "born of the Spirit".
|
|
|
|
Post by civic on Aug 14, 2022 3:59:52 GMT -8
"For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he (God) saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his (God's) own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he (God) poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior," (Tit 3:3-6)
I've heard many a Calvinist and some others state saints under the old covenant were born again but is this the case?
My understanding is the OT saints were not born from above because the NT had not been instituted. While under the system of the OT the Holy Spirit was present with them, but was not yet given in such a way that OT saints were washed through regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. The washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit could only happen after our Lord's appearance when He condemned sin in the flesh by His death, and by His resurrection and exaltation to the right hand of our Father, He received the promise of the Holy Spirit, whom our Lord gave unto us who believe in Him.
Joh_14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
Joh_15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me."
Act_2:33 "Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing."
Any thoughts?
God Bless
One fact that might be a clue was that before Christ died, believers had to wait in Abraham's bosom until Christ resurrected. What makes sense is that despite having faith, they were not yet indwelt by the Spirit, and therfore could not be face to face with God and survive. Once Christ's sacrifice was accepted and He rose, He brought the OT believers with Him, and presumably, they were now able to be in God's presence, which suggests they were at time first indwelt by the Spirit. Thanks for sharing ! |
|
|
|
Post by alexander on Aug 14, 2022 8:27:36 GMT -8
"For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he (God) saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his (God's) own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he (God) poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior," (Tit 3:3-6)
I've heard many a Calvinist and some others state saints under the old covenant were born again but is this the case?
My understanding is the OT saints were not born from above because the NT had not been instituted. While under the system of the OT the Holy Spirit was present with them, but was not yet given in such a way that OT saints were washed through regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. The washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit could only happen after our Lord's appearance when He condemned sin in the flesh by His death, and by His resurrection and exaltation to the right hand of our Father, He received the promise of the Holy Spirit, whom our Lord gave unto us who believe in Him.
Joh_14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
Joh_15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me."
Act_2:33 "Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing."
Any thoughts?
God Bless
I am inclined to say where scripture is silent, we should remain likewise and any speculation on our part should be presented as such. Also, any speculation on our part should be based as much as possible on well-rendered scripture handled well with reason. For example, we know the gospel was preached to Abraham and we know he believed. This is stated in Galatians 3. Beyond that we cannot say he was born anew from above because scripture does not tell us that. We know his understanding of the "gospel" was likely different in some way because the term "gospel" wasn't in use during his era. It's a Roman term used for political purposes that was appropriated by the New Testament writers thousands of years after Abraham was called out of Ur. I, personally, am inclined to think God did indwell OT saints with His Spirit in some way directly related to the work of Calvary and Pentecost and not just the way the Spirit indwelt the pre-Calvary disciples when they were sent out to preach, heal, and exorcise, but that is speculation on my part based solely on the evidence of insight present in the OT saints' messianic content (however veiled it may have been at that time). We do know that he Holy Spirit, the promise of the Father, was not given to believers until Pemtecost. And Jesus told the disciples shortly before He was killed that the Spirit was with thme but would be in them, alluding topentecost |
|
genez
Full Member
Posts: 130
|
Post by genez on Aug 14, 2022 8:42:57 GMT -8
OT believers were born again as Jesus was telling Nicodemus to be born again.
For Nicodemus was yet an OT person when Jesus told him he needed to be born again. The church age had not yet begun, and the gift of the Holy Spirit was not being given at that time.
OT saints were regenerated to become body, soul, and human spirit. The human spirit was what the Holy Spirit begets in being born again.
What confuses many is the additional *gift* of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Confused about the Holy Spirit being what the Holy Spirit begets which is not the case.
What the church age believer receives is the same as the OT saint. That being, 'body, soul, and human spirit.'
Its the ADDITION of the baptism of the Holy Spirit added to regeneration of a human spirit, that makes the Christian different than the OT believers.
Today the gift of the Holy Spirit is given to indwell and control the Christian. Such control is manifested when walking in the Light. That grace control of the body of the believer is what makes the difference. Its that inwardly controlling grace being done by the Holy Spirit that frees us from having to be controlled by the Law externally.
So yes... OT saints were born again. They also received a human spirit to be made able to know the things of God.
In contrast, the church age believer is given the gift of the Holy Spirit to take up residence inside him, as to make the believer not only know the things of God as the OT believer. But enabling the humble Christian to become transformed into things of God. Not simply knowing the things of God as the OT believers were limited to.
grace and peace .....
|
|
|
|
Post by Obadiah on Aug 14, 2022 11:11:38 GMT -8
We do know that he Holy Spirit, the promise of the Father, was not given to believers until Pemtecost. And Jesus told the disciples shortly before He was killed that the Spirit was with thme but would be in them, alluding topentecost The way I've had it preached to me was OT Saints received a temporary filling of the Spirit in order to accomplish whatever mission God had for them. I'll do a quick study on it and see what I can come up with. But that is a lot different than what was accomplished at Pentecost. We definitely need to look out for "Do Not Quench the Spirit". We need to let the Holy Spirit to do its work in us and in the church. This is the day that the Lord has made, and I will rejoice and be glad in it. Ancient history in the Bible is very good and helps us live today and hopefully not make the same mistakes. 40 years in the wilderness walking the same ole mountain is not what I want to be doing. At the church at Thessalonica, it seems that certain members were deemphasizing the power of the spiritual. This is likely because the spiritual experiences in Graeco-Roman religions were often performances; they were used for control and power. If a person has a special anointing over their life, or is part of an elite priesthood, it is difficult for anyone else to argue against them. Abuse of power becomes easy for the deceptive, hyper-spiritual individual. FROM: UNDERSTAND WHY YOU BELIEVE
The Apologetics Study Bible
|
|
|
|
Post by TibiasDad on Aug 15, 2022 7:06:48 GMT -8
"For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he (God) saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his (God's) own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he (God) poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior," (Tit 3:3-6)
I've heard many a Calvinist and some others state saints under the old covenant were born again but is this the case?
My understanding is the OT saints were not born from above because the NT had not been instituted. While under the system of the OT the Holy Spirit was present with them, but was not yet given in such a way that OT saints were washed through regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. The washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit could only happen after our Lord's appearance when He condemned sin in the flesh by His death, and by His resurrection and exaltation to the right hand of our Father, He received the promise of the Holy Spirit, whom our Lord gave unto us who believe in Him.
Joh_14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
Joh_15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me."
Act_2:33 "Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing."
Any thoughts?
God Bless
Hi Joe, In brief, I think that the OT believers were not born again it the same sense as we are, for the Spirit was merely on or with them, but he is in us! This does not imply that they were not true believers, or that they didn't have a real relationship with the Lord, but only that the dynamic of it was different. Doug |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2022 9:37:27 GMT -8
I am inclined to say where scripture is silent, we should remain likewise and any speculation on our part should be presented as such. Also, any speculation on our part should be based as much as possible on well-rendered scripture handled well with reason. For example, we know the gospel was preached to Abraham and we know he believed. This is stated in Galatians 3. Beyond that we cannot say he was born anew from above because scripture does not tell us that. We know his understanding of the "gospel" was likely different in some way because the term "gospel" wasn't in use during his era. It's a Roman term used for political purposes that was appropriated by the New Testament writers thousands of years after Abraham was called out of Ur. I, personally, am inclined to think God did indwell OT saints with His Spirit in some way directly related to the work of Calvary and Pentecost and not just the way the Spirit indwelt the pre-Calvary disciples when they were sent out to preach, heal, and exorcise, but that is speculation on my part based solely on the evidence of insight present in the OT saints' messianic content (however veiled it may have been at that time). We do know that he Holy Spirit, the promise of the Father, was not given to believers until Pentecost. And Jesus told the disciples shortly before He was killed that the Spirit was with them but would be in them, alluding to pentecost Were the apostles/disciples saved prior to Pentecost? Were they saved at Calvary or at Pentecost? Were they saved at Mattew 28:18-20? Was the repentant thief on the cross saved? Were the believers of Acts 19 saved prior to their baptism in the Holy Spirit? Is regeneration the same as indwelling? If the questions just asked are answered in the affirmative, then the two appear to be different in all of the examples just listed. If regeneration is something separate from and prior to the indwelling of the Spirit... and not all indwellings are the same (as I showed earlier in the thread) then we have reason to accept the premise of OT saints' regeneration or having been born anew from above. We might answer the question asked by this op with something Jesus said to Nicodemus: you can't see the kingdom unless born again. Did the OT saints see the kingdom? If so then perhaps they were in fact born anew from above. They saw the promise but their appointment in time and space entailed their having to wait for the promise seen. According to places like Galatians 3 and Hebrews 11 they knew, the saw to some degree, but apart from the fulfillment of time, Calvary and the Church, they were yearning and waiting for something seen but not in their day wholly manifest. I could argue both sides of the answer. I, personally, read scripture to say the OT saints were born again but I readily acknowledge I get there through inference and not something explicitly stated. That's why I couched my op-reply with circumspection. |
|
|
|
Post by alexander on Aug 22, 2022 15:40:02 GMT -8
"For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he (God) saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his (God's) own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he (God) poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior," (Tit 3:3-6)
I've heard many a Calvinist and some others state saints under the old covenant were born again but is this the case?
My understanding is the OT saints were not born from above because the NT had not been instituted. While under the system of the OT the Holy Spirit was present with them, but was not yet given in such a way that OT saints were washed through regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. The washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit could only happen after our Lord's appearance when He condemned sin in the flesh by His death, and by His resurrection and exaltation to the right hand of our Father, He received the promise of the Holy Spirit, whom our Lord gave unto us who believe in Him.
Joh_14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
Joh_15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me."
Act_2:33 "Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing."
Any thoughts?
So, all the righteous characters in the Old Covenant, when they died, David, Abraham, Rahab, Noah etc, where are they?
Is anything impossible with YHVH J. Here is a wild conjecture based on several Biblical facts: David, Abraham et al, are face to face with God, now. When they died, the Spirit had not yet started indwelling people. If David had gone to be face to face with God, without being indwelt by Christ, David would have been incinerated. Now because we are indwelt, we can safely stand in God's presence. Those OT saints who Christ delivered from Abraham's bosom were at some point indwelt by Christ as He brought them up from the grave. That way they can now stand in God's presence. Or is there another suggestion about why they had to wait to be resurrected in light of the fact that they died as believers. Maybe, they just had to wait for Jesus to pay for their sins? |
|
|
|
Post by synergy on Aug 24, 2022 15:12:19 GMT -8
"For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he (God) saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his (God's) own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he (God) poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior," (Tit 3:3-6)
I've heard many a Calvinist and some others state saints under the old covenant were born again but is this the case? My understanding is the OT saints were not born from above because the NT had not been instituted. While under the system of the OT the Holy Spirit was present with them, but was not yet given in such a way that OT saints were washed through regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. The washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit could only happen after our Lord's appearance when He condemned sin in the flesh by His death, and by His resurrection and exaltation to the right hand of our Father, He received the promise of the Holy Spirit, whom our Lord gave unto us who believe in Him.
Joh_14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." Joh_15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me." Act_2:33 "Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing." Any thoughts? God Bless
===========================================================
Synergy:
The Holy Spirit dwelt with the Disciples before Pentecost and dwelt in the Disciples after Pentecost:
John 14:17 "the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you."
So people were "born again" after Pentecost, not before.
|
|
|
|
Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 25, 2022 7:32:31 GMT -8
"For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he (God) saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his (God's) own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he (God) poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior," (Tit 3:3-6)
I've heard many a Calvinist and some others state saints under the old covenant were born again but is this the case?
My understanding is the OT saints were not born from above because the NT had not been instituted. While under the system of the OT the Holy Spirit was present with them, but was not yet given in such a way that OT saints were washed through regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. The washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit could only happen after our Lord's appearance when He condemned sin in the flesh by His death, and by His resurrection and exaltation to the right hand of our Father, He received the promise of the Holy Spirit, whom our Lord gave unto us who believe in Him.
Joh_14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
Joh_15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me."
Act_2:33 "Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing."
Any thoughts?
God Bless
Awesome topic.
No, the Old Testament Saints were not born again, they were justified in a temporal context (based on their obedience and actions) but died awaiting the promises of God to Man.
As a starting point in this discussion (which is one of the most important issues Christians can come to a conclusion on, and will impact every aspect of their Theology) I would present this:
John 1:11-13
King James Version
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Regeneration, the New Birth, was dependent on first, Christ coming, secondly, His death...
John 3
King James Version
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
...third, His Resurrection...
1 Peter 1:3
King James Version
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
...fourth, His return to Heaven and the sending of the Comforter...
John 7:38-39
King James Version
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)
...and fifth the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel to men...
1 Peter 1:12
King James Version
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1 Peter 1:22-23
King James Version
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Regeneration is not received by the filling of the Spirit, but by the indwelling of God in the eternal context taught of Christ here:
John 14:15-23
King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
We are born again by being baptized into Christ. We receive Eternal Life because of our union with the Father (vv.20 and 23), Son (vv.18, 20, and 23), and the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth (who had not yet come and would not come until Christ departed, John 16:9) spoken of in vv.16-17.
The belief that men have always been regenerated in order to have faith lacks the first Old Testament passage to support it, nor can it deny the easily understood teachings of Christ and the Apostles that make it clear that Christ came for the specific purpose of bestowing Eternal Life to men:
John 3:15-16
King James Version
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God so loved the world He sent the Son that men might have Eternal Life. If men had eternal life prior to His coming—somebody better get busy and find out what this second means of salvation is.
God bless.
|
|
slyzr
Full Member
Posts: 124
|
Post by slyzr on Aug 25, 2022 12:02:54 GMT -8
"For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he (God) saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his (God's) own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he (God) poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior," (Tit 3:3-6)
I've heard many a Calvinist and some others state saints under the old covenant were born again but is this the case?
My understanding is the OT saints were not born from above because the NT had not been instituted. While under the system of the OT the Holy Spirit was present with them, but was not yet given in such a way that OT saints were washed through regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. The washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit could only happen after our Lord's appearance when He condemned sin in the flesh by His death, and by His resurrection and exaltation to the right hand of our Father, He received the promise of the Holy Spirit, whom our Lord gave unto us who believe in Him.
Joh_14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
Joh_15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me."
Act_2:33 "Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing."
Any thoughts?
God Bless
It is called a NC for a reason.
But don't displace Jewish improvements over that.
The whole house would fall down.
According to Paul it was a foundational thing.
|
|
|
|
Post by P1LGR1M on Aug 26, 2022 7:26:01 GMT -8
Slyzr said:
It is called a NC for a reason.
But don't displace Jewish improvements over that.
The whole house would fall down.
According to Paul it was a foundational thing.
[/quote] I am not sure what you are saying here, would you mind expanding on your thoughts? God bless.
|
|
slyzr
Full Member
Posts: 124
|
Post by slyzr on Aug 26, 2022 17:25:27 GMT -8
Slyzr said:
It is called a NC for a reason.
But don't displace Jewish improvements over that.
The whole house would fall down.
According to Paul it was a foundational thing.
I am not sure what you are saying here, would you mind expanding on your thoughts? God bless.
[/quote] Paul talks about building a house. |
|
|
|
Post by resurrection33 on Sept 5, 2022 10:57:35 GMT -8
"For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he (God) saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his (God's) own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he (God) poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior," (Tit 3:3-6)
I've heard many a Calvinist and some others state saints under the old covenant were born again but is this the case?
My understanding is the OT saints were not born from above because the NT had not been instituted. While under the system of the OT the Holy Spirit was present with them, but was not yet given in such a way that OT saints were washed through regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. The washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit could only happen after our Lord's appearance when He condemned sin in the flesh by His death, and by His resurrection and exaltation to the right hand of our Father, He received the promise of the Holy Spirit, whom our Lord gave unto us who believe in Him.
Joh_14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
Joh_15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me."
Act_2:33 "Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing."
Any thoughts?
God Bless
Throughout time, I think only two things mattered: Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. If you did these two things, you were a born again saint. |
|
|
|
Post by civic on May 22, 2023 11:48:11 GMT -8
I'm not dogmatic one way or the other on the issue but this one passage has me leaning in the direction Christ was in them. What are your thoughts on this passage. Thanks 1 Peter 1:11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. @josheb civic “Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look." (1Pe 1:10-12) Upon reading this statement of Peter we can gather some points. It concerns the salvation he stated in verses 3-5 where he states "...According to his (God's) great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1Pe 1:3-5) The prophets of the OT were the ones who had the Spirit of Christ within them. The prophets predicted the sufferings of our Lord and subsequent glories. The prophets were not serving themselves but those after the event of our Lord's sufferings. This salvation has now been announced "through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven" From the points in Peter's statment about salvation we can reasonable deduct being "born again" is an event that only happened after the appearing of our Lord and His sufferings. The Apostle Paul stated to Titus, "But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior" (Titus 3:4-6) We can reasonable deduct "the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" is an event that only took place after the sufferings of our Lord, and as stated by Paul "whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior" Numbers 11:16-30 records the event where the Lord told Moses to gather seventy elders of Israel together so that He could give them all a portion of the Holy Spirit to help Moses. "Then the LORD said to Moses, “Gather for me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and officers over them, and bring them to the tent of meeting, and let them take their stand there with you. And I will come down and talk with you there. And I will take some of the Spirit that is on you and put it on them, and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you may not bear it yourself alone." (Num 11:16-17) As the event unfolds the Lord took some of the Spirit upon Moses and put it on the seventy elders and they began to prophesy. "Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him, and took some of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. And as soon as the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied. But they did not continue doing it. Now two men remained in the camp, one named Eldad, and the other named Medad, and the Spirit rested on them...and so they prophesied in the camp" (Num 11:25-26) Joshua said to Moses, “My lord Moses, stop them.” (Num 11:28) Moses replied back, "Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD's people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!" (Num 11:29) The event with Moses depicts the OT people without the Spirit of the Lord unless they were appointed for service. And then in Acts we have the event when the outpouring of the Holy Spirit was given to all believing people. “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. (Act 2:17-18) The language and data from the bible shows this event to be only in the days when the Messiah has come. Not everyone in the OT era was filled with the Spirit, although the Holy Spirit was with the people they were not regenerated-given a new life. The glorious act of a new life from our loving kind God came after the sufferings of our Lord. The prophecies of the New Covenant confirm the Old Covenant was not desirable to God, for about the New one God says, “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” (Jer 31:33) The born anew-regeneration experience is only realized in the New Covenant era after our Lord suffered, resurrected, and ascended. God Bless Good thoughtful response brother |
|
