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Post by praiseyeshua on Feb 4, 2023 20:04:04 GMT -8
Isa 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
For the Arminianists.......
Is there "more" prevenient Grace for the remnant?
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 5, 2023 6:26:15 GMT -8
praiseyeshua The concept of prevenient grace is all inclusive and not just for a remnant. This expression of God’s grace is generally rejected by Calvinism but held by many (though not all) non-Calvinists. It is especially identified with the theology of John Wesley. The basic idea is that of God’s grace going before or preceding the individual and his or her coming to faith. It may loosely be connected with Jesus’s words: “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him”. John 6:44
We're going to go guys Prevenient grace is grace which comes first. It precedes all human decisions and endeavors. Grace always means that it is God who takes the initiative and implies the priority of God’s action on behalf of the needy sinner. This grace is made necessary because non-Calvinists like Wesleyans and classical Arminians accept the Calvinistic notion of total depravity. That is, because of Adam’s sin, the human will and mind is so negatively impacted that, apart from a supernatural work of God, no one would be able to respond to the call of God to believe the gospel and repent. The Wesleyan concept of prevenient grace differs from the Calvinist’s irresistible grace in two important respects. The first way prevenient grace differs from irresistible grace is that it is universal. Calvinism makes a sharp distinction between, on the one hand, a universal grace (common grace) that is applicable to all peoples and entails provisions for our everyday life. Like food, water, ability to work, even conscience and the good seen in society and, on the other hand, sovereign, or special, grace which is the grace given by God only to the elect for their salvation. So, as far as salvation is concerned Calvinists do not believe in a universal grace, but only in a special or particular grace, limited in its scope to the elect alone. Prevenient grace however is a grace that is available to all without exception and could potentially result in the salvation of everyone. Calvinism’s common grace can never lead anyone to salvation, whereas prevenient grace is designed to provide for all people’s needs, including salvation. So it's not a case of more or less. Personally, I don't buy into either of these man-made theologies. Just give Me Jesus.
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Post by Redeemed on Feb 5, 2023 7:55:49 GMT -8
Isa 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. For the Arminianists....... Is there "more" prevenient Grace for the remnant? Isaiah 1:8–9 And the daughter of Zion is left like a booth in a vineyard, like a lodge in a cucumber field, like a besieged city. 9 If the Lord of hosts had not left us a few survivors, we should have been like Sodom, and become like Gomorrah. The daughter of Zion is a personification of Jerusalem and its inhabitants. A booth in a vineyard was constructed for the man guarding the ripening fruit from theft. The booth was left after the guard was no longer needed. When God leaves Judah, she will be just as lonely and dreary as the abandoned booth. Remnant: Some will remain faithful in Judah. There are two ways to live, both seen in Psalm 1. First is the way of faithfulness to God’s Word, it is the way of blessing. The second way doesn't really turn out very well. Psalm 1:
1 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; 2 but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. 3 He is like a tree planted by streams of water, that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers. 4 The wicked are not so, but are like chaff which the wind drives away. 5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous; 6 for the Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish. |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Feb 5, 2023 11:53:55 GMT -8
Isa 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. For the Arminianists....... Is there "more" prevenient Grace for the remnant? Isaiah 1:8–9 And the daughter of Zion is left like a booth in a vineyard, like a lodge in a cucumber field, like a besieged city. 9 If the Lord of hosts had not left us a few survivors, we should have been like Sodom, and become like Gomorrah. The daughter of Zion is a personification of Jerusalem and its inhabitants. A booth in a vineyard was constructed for the man guarding the ripening fruit from theft. The booth was left after the guard was no longer needed. When God leaves Judah, she will be just as lonely and dreary as the abandoned booth. Remnant: Some will remain faithful in Judah. There are two ways to live, both seen in Psalm 1. First is the way of faithfulness to God’s Word, it is the way of blessing. The second way doesn't really turn out very well. Psalm 1:
1 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; 2 but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. 3 He is like a tree planted by streams of water, that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers. 4 The wicked are not so, but are like chaff which the wind drives away. 5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous; 6 for the Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish. I believe it is clear from what is stated that if God hadn't taken personal (primary cause) action, there wouldn't have been a remnant at all. If that is true, then I don't believe an argument can be made that God grants "Prevenient Grace" equally to everyone. |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Feb 5, 2023 11:54:54 GMT -8
praiseyeshua The concept of prevenient grace is all inclusive and not just for a remnant. This expression of God’s grace is generally rejected by Calvinism but held by many (though not all) non-Calvinists. It is especially identified with the theology of John Wesley. The basic idea is that of God’s grace going before or preceding the individual and his or her coming to faith. It may loosely be connected with Jesus’s words: “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him”. John 6:44
We're going to go guys Prevenient grace is grace which comes first. It precedes all human decisions and endeavors. Grace always means that it is God who takes the initiative and implies the priority of God’s action on behalf of the needy sinner. This grace is made necessary because non-Calvinists like Wesleyans and classical Arminians accept the Calvinistic notion of total depravity. That is, because of Adam’s sin, the human will and mind is so negatively impacted that, apart from a supernatural work of God, no one would be able to respond to the call of God to believe the gospel and repent. The Wesleyan concept of prevenient grace differs from the Calvinist’s irresistible grace in two important respects. The first way prevenient grace differs from irresistible grace is that it is universal. Calvinism makes a sharp distinction between, on the one hand, a universal grace (common grace) that is applicable to all peoples and entails provisions for our everyday life. Like food, water, ability to work, even conscience and the good seen in society and, on the other hand, sovereign, or special, grace which is the grace given by God only to the elect for their salvation. So, as far as salvation is concerned Calvinists do not believe in a universal grace, but only in a special or particular grace, limited in its scope to the elect alone. Prevenient grace however is a grace that is available to all without exception and could potentially result in the salvation of everyone. Calvinism’s common grace can never lead anyone to salvation, whereas prevenient grace is designed to provide for all people’s needs, including salvation. So it's not a case of more or less. Personally, I don't buy into either of these man-made theologies. Just give Me Jesus. I agree. I believe both are flawed. I try to deal with the specifics of how they are flawed. |
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 5, 2023 13:53:34 GMT -8
Isaiah 1:8–9 And the daughter of Zion is left like a booth in a vineyard, like a lodge in a cucumber field, like a besieged city. 9 If the Lord of hosts had not left us a few survivors, we should have been like Sodom, and become like Gomorrah. The daughter of Zion is a personification of Jerusalem and its inhabitants. A booth in a vineyard was constructed for the man guarding the ripening fruit from theft. The booth was left after the guard was no longer needed. When God leaves Judah, she will be just as lonely and dreary as the abandoned booth. Remnant: Some will remain faithful in Judah. There are two ways to live, both seen in Psalm 1. First is the way of faithfulness to God’s Word, it is the way of blessing. The second way doesn't really turn out very well. Psalm 1:
1 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; 2 but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. 3 He is like a tree planted by streams of water, that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers. 4 The wicked are not so, but are like chaff which the wind drives away. 5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous; 6 for the Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish. I believe it is clear from what is stated that if God hadn't taken personal (primary cause) action, there wouldn't have been a remnant at all. If that is true, then I don't believe an argument can be made that God grants "Prevenient Grace" equally to everyone. Here are a couple: 1. A possible danger for Arminians is forgetting that salvation is God’s unmerited gift to humanity. 2. A possible danger for Calvinists is to highlight God’s sovereignty to such an extreme that they reduce human free will. The primary danger is to make God the author of evil and remove all responsibility for sin from humanity. Them we definitely agree. |
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 5, 2023 13:58:31 GMT -8
praiseyeshua The concept of prevenient grace is all inclusive and not just for a remnant. This expression of God’s grace is generally rejected by Calvinism but held by many (though not all) non-Calvinists. It is especially identified with the theology of John Wesley. The basic idea is that of God’s grace going before or preceding the individual and his or her coming to faith. It may loosely be connected with Jesus’s words: “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him”. John 6:44
We're going to go guys Prevenient grace is grace which comes first. It precedes all human decisions and endeavors. Grace always means that it is God who takes the initiative and implies the priority of God’s action on behalf of the needy sinner. This grace is made necessary because non-Calvinists like Wesleyans and classical Arminians accept the Calvinistic notion of total depravity. That is, because of Adam’s sin, the human will and mind is so negatively impacted that, apart from a supernatural work of God, no one would be able to respond to the call of God to believe the gospel and repent. The Wesleyan concept of prevenient grace differs from the Calvinist’s irresistible grace in two important respects. The first way prevenient grace differs from irresistible grace is that it is universal. Calvinism makes a sharp distinction between, on the one hand, a universal grace (common grace) that is applicable to all peoples and entails provisions for our everyday life. Like food, water, ability to work, even conscience and the good seen in society and, on the other hand, sovereign, or special, grace which is the grace given by God only to the elect for their salvation. So, as far as salvation is concerned Calvinists do not believe in a universal grace, but only in a special or particular grace, limited in its scope to the elect alone. Prevenient grace however is a grace that is available to all without exception and could potentially result in the salvation of everyone. Calvinism’s common grace can never lead anyone to salvation, whereas prevenient grace is designed to provide for all people’s needs, including salvation. So it's not a case of more or less. Personally, I don't buy into either of these man-made theologies. Just give Me Jesus. I agree. I believe both are flawed. I try to deal with the specifics of how they are flawed. Sounds good to me. We shouldn't run out of specifics, I'm sure I can come up with quite a few. I found a couple. A possible danger for Arminians is forgetting that salvation is God’s unmerited gift to humanity. A possible danger for Calvinists is to highlight God’s sovereignty to such an extreme that they reduce human free will. The primary danger is to make God the author of evil and remove all responsibility for sin from humanity. |
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 5, 2023 14:38:51 GMT -8
Flaws found in Armenianism and Calvinism:
First Arminians argue that God’s election respects human free will because it is based on his foreknowledge. Because God knows how all choices will turn out, God foresees who will choose to follow his calling and who will reject it. Based on this foreknowledge, God elects those who will believe. For Arminius, as for Wesley, everyone who believes is elect.
Some Arminian scholars propose to use the concept of corporate election. Whenever the Bible refers to election, they argue, it means that God is electing a group of people (Israel in the Old Testament and the Church in the New Testament) rather than individuals. Based on this concept, they argue that God did predestine the church to be an elected people. However, Christians individually must still exercise their faith to become part of this elected group, just as God predestined Israel, even if individually they might rebel.
Armenian proof texts from the Bible:
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood. 1 Peter 1:1–2
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. Rom. 8:29
Then you have the Calvinists believe that God, in his mercy, chose to extend his grace to many to save them from condemnation. Because of sin, humans are already justly condemned. Calvinists believe that God’s choice resides entirely in his good pleasure. In deciding to choose people for salvation, God chose to pass others by, leaving them in their already lost condition. Through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, God calls and transforms those whom he previously chose.
The label “unconditional election” refers to the free exercise of God’s sovereignty. Based on the apostle Paul—“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion” Rom. 9:15—Calvinist scholars argue that God’s choice of people is not conditional to any action or characteristic of each person. Rather, God chooses based on his good pleasure and for the glory of his name.
Calvinists proof texts from the Bible:
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. Eph. 1:4–6
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. John 15:16
He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time 2 Tim. 1:9
Then you get what inevitably happens...EXTREME VIEWS
Two extreme views, on opposite sides, cause comparable problems. One extreme emphasizes God’s sovereignty to such an extent that it denies the importance or even the existence of human responsibility. The other extreme emphasizes human choice to such an extent that it diminishes God’s sovereignty. The result is a god that hardly resembles the God of the Bible.
The first extreme is often called “hyper-Calvinism.” People holding this view may deny the importance of sharing the gospel because, they reason, the elect will come to God in any case. In addition, it leads people to question their status as elect, creating both tendency toward legalism and great anxiety for believers.
On the Arminian extreme is a view often connected to “Open theism” in which the over-emphasis on human responsibility diminishes who God is and what he does in his creation. Since free will is so emphasized, open theists reason that God must respect even the choices that humans haven’t yet made. For that reason, the future is mostly unknown even to God. This view seems to diminish who God is and what he can do.
The first extreme is often called “hyper-Calvinism.” People holding this view may deny the importance of sharing the gospel because, they reason, the elect will come to God in any case. In addition, it leads people to question their status as elect, creating both tendency toward legalism and great anxiety for believers.
Gleamed from the pamphlet Free Will or Predestination? by Benjamin Galan
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Post by praiseyeshua on Feb 5, 2023 17:42:35 GMT -8
I agree. I believe both are flawed. I try to deal with the specifics of how they are flawed. Sounds good to me. We shouldn't run out of specifics, I'm sure I can come up with quite a few. I found a couple. A possible danger for Arminians is forgetting that salvation is God’s unmerited gift to humanity. A possible danger for Calvinists is to highlight God’s sovereignty to such an extreme that they reduce human free will. The primary danger is to make God the author of evil and remove all responsibility for sin from humanity. Absolutely! |
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Post by civic on Feb 5, 2023 17:50:34 GMT -8
Sounds good to me. We shouldn't run out of specifics, I'm sure I can come up with quite a few. I found a couple. A possible danger for Arminians is forgetting that salvation is God’s unmerited gift to humanity. A possible danger for Calvinists is to highlight God’s sovereignty to such an extreme that they reduce human free will. The primary danger is to make God the author of evil and remove all responsibility for sin from humanity. Absolutely! Ditto |
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Post by rockson on Feb 5, 2023 23:53:21 GMT -8
praiseyeshua So, as far as salvation is concerned Calvinists do not believe in a universal grace, but only in a special or particular grace, limited in its scope to the elect alone. Prevenient grace however is a grace that is available to all without exception and could potentially result in the salvation of everyone. Calvinism’s common grace can never lead anyone to salvation, whereas prevenient grace is designed to provide for all people’s needs, including salvation. So it's not a case of more or less. Personally, I don't buy into either of these man-made theologies. Just give Me Jesus. What Calvinists call common grace actually does damage and makes a mockery of God's true grace. One can't really say God is a gracious being unless his salvation grace is available to all. For the scripture to say God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance shows he is gracious. Calvinists like to say God gives common grace, meaning he makes Non-Christians crops to grow or does other kind things but stops short of wanting them to be saved. That would be like feeding one's kid a meal (you've done something good) but then throwing them outside in sub zero temperatures without a coat wanting them to freeze . Nobody in their right mind would call that person gracious. All would know in order to qualify for the term gracious about one's character they would have to have the full package of being willing to do all things for the welfare and benefit of the person. |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Feb 6, 2023 5:57:22 GMT -8
praiseyeshua So, as far as salvation is concerned Calvinists do not believe in a universal grace, but only in a special or particular grace, limited in its scope to the elect alone. Prevenient grace however is a grace that is available to all without exception and could potentially result in the salvation of everyone. Calvinism’s common grace can never lead anyone to salvation, whereas prevenient grace is designed to provide for all people’s needs, including salvation. So it's not a case of more or less. Personally, I don't buy into either of these man-made theologies. Just give Me Jesus. What Calvinists call common grace actually does damage and makes a mockery of God's true grace. One can't really say God is a gracious being unless his salvation grace is available to all. For the scripture to say God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance shows he is gracious. Calvinists like to say God gives common grace, meaning he makes Non-Christians crops to grow or does other kind things but stops short of wanting them to be saved. That would be like feeding one's kid a meal (you've done something good) but then throwing them outside in sub zero temperatures without a coat wanting them to freeze . Nobody in their right mind would call that person gracious. All would know in order to qualify for the term gracious about one's character they would have to have the full package of being willing to do all things for the welfare and benefit of the person. 1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. I caution against the idea that every single person has equal assess and opportunity to know God. I don't believe that is an accurate description of the reality of what has happened throughout the history of man. There is a very real battle on this earth between the children of God and the children of the Devil. The Devil has won the majority and has long damned/blinded the minds of men. 2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. I enjoy conversation such as this. I very seldom have the opportunity to have such a conversation. Something always "gets in the way"..... The faithful pass on their faith to others. "Righteousness" is "REVEALED" from faith to faith. Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. HOWEVER, The faithless pass on their "faithlessness" to others. Generation to generation. Over and over again. We ARE our brother's keeper......... Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand. Faithful men often rise or fall based upon OUR efforts. |
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Post by civic on Feb 6, 2023 11:48:41 GMT -8
What Calvinists call common grace actually does damage and makes a mockery of God's true grace. One can't really say God is a gracious being unless his salvation grace is available to all. For the scripture to say God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance shows he is gracious. Calvinists like to say God gives common grace, meaning he makes Non-Christians crops to grow or does other kind things but stops short of wanting them to be saved. That would be like feeding one's kid a meal (you've done something good) but then throwing them outside in sub zero temperatures without a coat wanting them to freeze . Nobody in their right mind would call that person gracious. All would know in order to qualify for the term gracious about one's character they would have to have the full package of being willing to do all things for the welfare and benefit of the person. 1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. I caution against the idea that every single person has equal assess and opportunity to know God. I don't believe that is an accurate description of the reality of what has happened throughout the history of man. There is a very real battle on this earth between the children of God and the children of the Devil. The Devil has won the majority and has long damned/blinded the minds of men. 2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. I enjoy conversation such as this. I very seldom have the opportunity to have such a conversation. Something always "gets in the way"..... The faithful pass on their faith to others. "Righteousness" is "REVEAL" from faith to faith. Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. HOWEVER, The faithless pass on their "faithlessness" to others. Generation to generation. Over and over again. We ARE our brother's keeper......... Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand. Faithful men often rise or fall based upon OUR efforts. Its the purpose of this forum to have these kinds of discussions. isn't it a breath of fresh air brother ? |
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