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Post by praiseyeshua on Feb 12, 2023 17:57:25 GMT -8
A "top level" down discussion of the Sovereignty of God should include this question....
Does the doctrine of Sovereignty require that God always get exact what He wants?
I believe the answer to this fundamental question is NO. Too many times in theology, man injects his own bias. Man who thirst for power, can't comprehend not having absolute control over Everything.
Yet, I believe is very clear that God doesn't desire to control ALL things. He isn't threatened by sin. He is above it. Sin could never overpower Him......
If this is true, then why the demand that the doctrine of God's Sovereignty require that God always have His way?
Can anyone provide Scripture to the contrary?
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Post by civic on Jul 11, 2023 13:47:45 GMT -8
Agreed and we see it happen many times in Scripture.
1-Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
2-Matthew 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
3-Luke 19:41
And when he drew nigh, he saw the city and wept over it,
4-Galatians 5:4-7
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
5-Hebrews 12:14-15
Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
6-2 Corinthians 6:1
As God’s partners, we beg you not to accept this marvelous gift of God’s kindness and then ignore it.
7-Hebrews 10:29
Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us.
8-Hebrews 12:25
Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking. For if the people of Israel did not escape when they refused to listen to Moses, the earthly messenger, we will certainly not escape if we reject the One who speaks to us from heaven!
9-Genesis 6:3: And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
10-2 Chronicles 36:15-16: And the Lord God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, till there was no remedy.
11-Proverbs 29:1: He who is often rebuked, and hardens his neck, Will suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.
12-Isaiah 30:15 “For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: ‘In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quiteness and confidence shall be your strength.’ But you would not.”
13-Isaiah 65:2“I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts.”
14-Jeremiah 35:15 “I have also sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, ‘Turn now everyone from his evil way, amend your doings, and do not go after other gods to serve them; then you will dwell in the land which I have given to you and your fathers.’ But you have not inclined your ear, nor obeyed Me.”
15-Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”
16-Acts 13:46: Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.”
17-Romans 10:21: But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”
18- Matthew 23:37: Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.”
19- Hebrews 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Here we have those receiving Gods grace sharing in the Holy Spirit of grace reject it. They have fallen away permanently from His grace and can no longer repent.
20- Psalm 78:17;40
But they continued to sin against Him, rebelling in the desert against the Most High. How often they disobeyed Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert.
Adam who was “spiritually “dead hid from God in the garden and was able to communicate with God and understand Him. In the day you eat you shall surely die. So adam sinned and was spiritually dead and yet could communicate with God and understand God. “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” (Genesis 3:10)
Luke 16:27-31 -“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Above we see that Jesus declared the physical dead and spiritual dead can respond to spiritual things. The dead spiritual/physical dead man is pleading for his own brother’s life.
Jesus declares in John 5:25, “An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” Here Jesus says the spiritually dead can and will hear him
In Mark 2:17 Jesus said, “"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." The sick/spiritually dead can hear and understand Jesus- the sinner who is dead in their sins can understand.
In Romans 1 we read of the spiritually dead that they can perceive God and that Gods handiwork is self-evident to them and that the things of God are clearly seen by them so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20- For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”
conclusion: Calvinism uses eisegesis to support their view of Sovereignty and the " I " in tulip.
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Post by civic on Jul 11, 2023 13:53:44 GMT -8
And they always conflate foreknowledge with Sovereignty. Just because God knows what will happen through foreknowledge does not mean He plans it, ordains it to happen. Sometimes He does and sometimes He doesn't. And God sure doesn't determine, cause or ordain evil.
If God causes evil why would Jesus who is God tell us to pray for deliverance from evil ?
Why would Jesus teach us to pray against Gods will ?
Matthew 6
Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father, who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
God delivers from evil not causes it .
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.
1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.
Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…
Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.
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Post by civic on Jul 11, 2023 13:56:30 GMT -8
WCF CHAPTER 3 Of God’s Eternal Decree: CH3.1-CH3.3
1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.
The above is nothing but Calvinist double talk trying to get " God" off the hook with determinism and predestination. The Author and Originator in every systematic is the responsible party with the exception of Calvinism. If I’m predestined as a child of wrath/destruction from Eternity then I do not have a choice or a chance to be saved as I was condemned before I was born. It’s the very definition of unloving, uncharitable and hateful- not loving.
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