TedT
Junior Member
...gruntled.
Posts: 57
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Post by TedT on Feb 19, 2023 11:37:57 GMT -8
Please consider: Genesis 3:4 “You will not surely die,” the serpent told her. 5 “For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”Is this a lie? Not if it is proven to be the truth in Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one OF us, to know good and evil: BUT does V3:22 actually teach this?? On the surface the serpent's claim she would become like God, (keelyohim) seems be the same as GOD’s claim that Adam and Eve had become like one of us, except the prefix is different which contains an interesting anomaly… The serpent’s suggestion in Gen 3:5: that she would be like God (כֵּֽאלֹהִ֔ים, i.e. אלֹהִ֔ים = Elohim + כֵּֽ = Hebrew prefix, meaning "as/like” 430 [e] kê·lō·hîm, כֵּֽאלֹהִ֔ים) If we go to Strong’s Concordance www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/gen/3/22/ss1/s_3022 at, for Gen 3:22: we see the man H120 is become as one H259 (chad) of us, to know H3045, OF US has no Hebrew reference!! Yet in biblehub.com interlinear for Gen 3:22, LIKE ONE is כְּאַחַ֣ד ke echad, that is, one, echad +ke, כֵּֽ, as or like: 259 [e] kə·’a·ḥaḏ כְּאַחַ֣ד like one and OF US is 4480 [e] mim·men·nū, מִמֶּ֔נּוּ OF: Strong’s 4480 (searching the number 4480 and not the verse Gen 3:22)… a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses (as follows):--above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), that is, as a separation! AND OF: Brown-Driver-Briggs: מִ mim, Strong’s 4480; is a "preposition expressing the idea of separation", hence out of, from, on account of, off, etc. with verbs expressing (or implying) separation or removal, whether from a person or place, or in any direction, also from guilt, calamity, etc. thus to descend from, the idea of separation, away from, far from, out of, out of Egypt or far from... How the early Rabbis decided this preposition of separation was in this case one of inclusion would seem to have been a theologically driven (ie, eisegesis) rather than a common usage of this word. In ordinary use, this preposition seems to say the man is become as one OUT FROM (AMONG) us, to know good and evil, a rather predictable statement about a sinner, rather than become as one OF us, knowing good and evil... Since 'knowing' contains the meaning of 'having a practical experience of,' I contend that GOD does not know any evil at all but knows all about it. Thus the notion of becoming like GOD by the practice of, the experience of, evil is just plain wrong. LIKE GOD is not the same as LIKE ONE OUT OF OR MOVED FROM US though the English like GOD and like one of us makes them seem to be exactly the same! Thus God is not saying they must be removed from the tree of life because they are like HIM but because their new knowledge by their experience of evil removes them from HIM ! a much more Christian interpretation of what happens to our relationship with GOD when we sin! Sinful evil people living forever in HIS creation would be anathema to the GOD who is Righteous!! This verse does not support the idea that GOD is the repository of all knowledge of evil by experience but, though HE knows all about evil, HE does NOT know the experience of evil as there is no evil in HIM. In the context of this topic of the lie of the serpent, we see the serpent DID lie though the English seems to say he didn’t lie but accurately predicted the result of her eating. Ain’t bible study fun!!! |
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Post by civic on Feb 20, 2023 6:16:46 GMT -8
Ted what is the practical application of this for the believer? Thanks !
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Post by praiseyeshua on Feb 20, 2023 9:36:59 GMT -8
Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—
Joh 10:36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Act 17:29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.
Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
I believe the issues is more related to how you view "experience" than anything else.
First of all, there are some who believe Genesis 3:23 is genuine sarcasm from God to those who were listening. Potentially, Adam, Eve and maybe Satan. I can't say for certain that is true or not. I do believe it is a valid argument.
Secondly, "Experience".. There is a difference between experience and observation. Some of this difference is due to Character but it is not all due to Character.
This is topic, I enjoy.
Do you believe the mind of God exists in a singular all encompassing "thought" or is one thought predicated upon another?
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TedT
Junior Member
...gruntled.
Posts: 57
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Post by TedT on Feb 20, 2023 10:05:16 GMT -8
Do you believe the mind of God exists in a singular all encompassing "thought" or is one thought predicated upon another?
I tend to think the Trinity's thoughts must be linear...but hey.
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Post by praiseyeshua on Feb 20, 2023 10:43:31 GMT -8
Do you believe the mind of God exists in a singular all encompassing "thought" or is one thought predicated upon another? I tend to think the Trinity's thoughts must be linear...but hey. Then experience can not be an increase in personal knowledge, a linear view requires knowledge predicated upon knowledge. Infinite knowledge would require no end to knowledge. Very few people give much thought to what their beliefs entail. |
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TedT
Junior Member
...gruntled.
Posts: 57
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Post by TedT on Feb 22, 2023 11:44:03 GMT -8
Ted what is the practical application of this for the believer? Thanks ! I'm sorry civc, I didn't see your post when I came thru here yesterday. I must admit that I find this forum's interface and ease of use to be the worst in any Christian forum I've been to since the 1990s, sigh. First,I wanted to point out that a pov is a time honoured tradition or interpretation is NOT proof that it is true and we should do the work if we are to take responsibility for teaching. If "Thou shalt not die" (for disobedience) was not a lie to deceive her into thinking disobedience was without consequence and that YHWH had no power over life and death, what could it be? Perhaps it was a appeal to the truth that she believed that she was HIS elect, ie, under his promise of salvation from the effects of sin so that she would not suffer the eternal death that the serpent had earned by his heavenly rebellion which had him cast to earth. He might have been saying in effect: as an elect you know you are safe from death so why don't you prove your faith that you are safe from death because of HIS promise of election to you? By disobedience you would be in fact saying: 'I trust you to fulfill your promise to me and I'm willing to face death for sinning to prove it.' Of course, the implication that he wasn't lying to her but appealing to her faith in YHWH's proclaimed deity ( Colossians 1:23) and HIS promise of election to salvation to all those who put their faith in them before the foundation of the world may have been made to real persons, not those just in HIS imagination. This implies that the reference to ALL THE SONS OF OF GOD witnessing the creation and sining their praise for this proof of HIS divinity and power, Job 38:7 with Romans 1:18-20 may not be metaphorical but are rather factual though contrary to all time honoured tradition... |
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Post by civic on Mar 20, 2023 5:47:38 GMT -8
Ted what is the practical application of this for the believer? Thanks ! I'm sorry civc, I didn't see your post when I came thru here yesterday. I must admit that I find this forum's interface and ease of use to be the worst in any Christian forum I've been to since the 1990s, sigh. First,I wanted to point out that a pov is a time honoured tradition or interpretation is NOT proof that it is true and we should do the work if we are to take responsibility for teaching. If "Thou shalt not die" (for disobedience) was not a lie to deceive her into thinking disobedience was without consequence and that YHWH had no power over life and death, what could it be? Perhaps it was a appeal to the truth that she believed that she was HIS elect, ie, under his promise of salvation from the effects of sin so that she would not suffer the eternal death that the serpent had earned by his heavenly rebellion which had him cast to earth. He might have been saying in effect: as an elect you know you are safe from death so why don't you prove your faith that you are safe from death because of HIS promise of election to you? By disobedience you would be in fact saying: 'I trust you to fulfill your promise to me and I'm willing to face death for sinning to prove it.' Of course, the implication that he wasn't lying to her but appealing to her faith in YHWH's proclaimed deity ( Colossians 1:23) and HIS promise of election to salvation to all those who put their faith in them before the foundation of the world may have been made to real persons, not those just in HIS imagination. This implies that the reference to ALL THE SONS OF OF GOD witnessing the creation and sining their praise for this proof of HIS divinity and power, Job 38:7 with Romans 1:18-20 may not be metaphorical but are rather factual though contrary to all time honoured tradition... Thanks for posting this Ted and sorry I just saw this post. I've been busty lately with a job change and many other things lately with church and my wife's health. |
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TedT
Junior Member
...gruntled.
Posts: 57
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Post by TedT on Mar 24, 2023 8:29:33 GMT -8
No worries. Life does leap upon us sometimes...
I've been using these public forums to find the soft spots in my understanding of PCE Theology and to work out my apology. It has been quite a while since I was sincerely challenged to find an answer for some point of doctrine I hadn't noticed before so I'm sort of ready to retire and just enjoy our visits to the Doc's and the tests and to get a lunch out! :)
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Post by civic on Mar 24, 2023 8:33:53 GMT -8
No worries. Life does leap upon us sometimes... I've been using these public forums to find the soft spots in my understanding of PCE Theology and to work out my apology. It has been quite a while since I was sincerely challenged to find an answer for some point of doctrine I hadn't noticed before so I'm sort of ready to retire and just enjoy our visits to the Doc's and the tests and to get a lunch out!  Thanks brother ! |
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Post by Bronson on Apr 9, 2023 15:53:09 GMT -8
Please consider: Genesis 3:4 “You will not surely die,” the serpent told her. 5 “For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”Is this a lie? Not if it is proven to be the truth in Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one OF us, to know good and evil: BUT does V3:22 actually teach this?? On the surface the serpent's claim she would become like God, (keelyohim) seems be the same as GOD’s claim that Adam and Eve had become like one of us, except the prefix is different which contains an interesting anomaly… The serpent’s suggestion in Gen 3:5: that she would be like God (כֵּֽאלֹהִ֔ים, i.e. אלֹהִ֔ים = Elohim + כֵּֽ = Hebrew prefix, meaning "as/like” 430 [e] kê·lō·hîm, כֵּֽאלֹהִ֔ים) If we go to Strong’s Concordance www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/gen/3/22/ss1/s_3022 at, for Gen 3:22: we see the man H120 is become as one H259 (chad) of us, to know H3045, OF US has no Hebrew reference!! Yet in biblehub.com interlinear for Gen 3:22, LIKE ONE is כְּאַחַ֣ד ke echad, that is, one, echad +ke, כֵּֽ, as or like: 259 [e] kə·’a·ḥaḏ כְּאַחַ֣ד like one and OF US is 4480 [e] mim·men·nū, מִמֶּ֔נּוּ OF: Strong’s 4480 (searching the number 4480 and not the verse Gen 3:22)… a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses (as follows):--above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), that is, as a separation! AND OF: Brown-Driver-Briggs: מִ mim, Strong’s 4480; is a "preposition expressing the idea of separation", hence out of, from, on account of, off, etc. with verbs expressing (or implying) separation or removal, whether from a person or place, or in any direction, also from guilt, calamity, etc. thus to descend from, the idea of separation, away from, far from, out of, out of Egypt or far from... How the early Rabbis decided this preposition of separation was in this case one of inclusion would seem to have been a theologically driven (ie, eisegesis) rather than a common usage of this word. In ordinary use, this preposition seems to say the man is become as one OUT FROM (AMONG) us, to know good and evil, a rather predictable statement about a sinner, rather than become as one OF us, knowing good and evil... Since 'knowing' contains the meaning of 'having a practical experience of,' I contend that GOD does not know any evil at all but knows all about it. Thus the notion of becoming like GOD by the practice of, the experience of, evil is just plain wrong. LIKE GOD is not the same as LIKE ONE OUT OF OR MOVED FROM US though the English like GOD and like one of us makes them seem to be exactly the same! Thus God is not saying they must be removed from the tree of life because they are like HIM but because their new knowledge by their experience of evil removes them from HIM ! a much more Christian interpretation of what happens to our relationship with GOD when we sin! Sinful evil people living forever in HIS creation would be anathema to the GOD who is Righteous!! This verse does not support the idea that GOD is the repository of all knowledge of evil by experience but, though HE knows all about evil, HE does NOT know the experience of evil as there is no evil in HIM. In the context of this topic of the lie of the serpent, we see the serpent DID lie though the English seems to say he didn’t lie but accurately predicted the result of her eating. Ain’t bible study fun!!! Bible study is so fun I forgot to laugh Thanks for the study Ted. One way to look at "your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:8-10 8 [Adam and Eve] heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” 10 He said, “I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.” Genesis 4:1-9 After the murder, the Lord, knowing full well what had happened, asked Cain where Abel was. Cain’s response was "I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?" He knew what he did was evil and he lied to cover it up. After the fall man did know the difference between Good and Evil and chose evil. So much evil in fact God destroyed the vast majority of mankind with the flood. Nowadays if you don't have Christ as your lord and savior then you're your own god and you make up your mind what's good you for you. Bank robbers can have a good day by robbing a bank. A bad day would be when they got caught. That's only one example there are millions as many as there are unsaved people. they each have their own God (themselves) and they each have their own concept of Good and Evil. Now on the other hand Jesus shows us the truth (Himself) and the truth sets us free. Free to obey and follow Christ out of love for Him and what he's done for us. |
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TedT
Junior Member
...gruntled.
Posts: 57
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Post by TedT on Apr 10, 2023 9:22:00 GMT -8
Now on the other hand Jesus shows us the truth (Himself) and the truth sets us free. Free to obey and follow Christ out of love for Him and what he's done for us. If we are slaves to sin: John 8:34 Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin., then this hypothesis is iffy and the reason for the assertion that we can't save ourselves by our free will choices because we lost our free will when we chose to be sinners. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast". " Not from yourselves" certainly means "not by our will or choice", eh? The main definition of a free will is that it is not coerced nor constrained by the will of another which means that a free will is most essentially that which is ONLY from ourselves! |
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Ozias
Full Member
Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you
Posts: 100
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Post by Ozias on Apr 10, 2023 16:33:06 GMT -8
Now on the other hand Jesus shows us the truth (Himself) and the truth sets us free. Free to obey and follow Christ out of love for Him and what he's done for us. If we are slaves to sin: John 8:34 Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin., then this hypothesis is iffy and the reason for the assertion that we can't save ourselves by our free will choices because we lost our free will when we chose to be sinners. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast". " Not from yourselves" certainly means "not by our will or choice", eh? The main definition of a free will is that it is not coerced nor constrained by the will of another which means that a free will is most essentially that which is ONLY from ourselves! Good point. |
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Post by Bronson on Apr 10, 2023 16:37:50 GMT -8
Yep Bible study is fun, it's also fun talking about it. And the really good part is we can learn things.
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