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Post by Theophilus on Mar 6, 2023 6:29:20 GMT -8
It’s interesting to me that when a Calvinist seeks to defend against the charge of being a “Theistic Fatalist” he often argues “God not only ordains the end; but also the means” as if that is a point the Theistic Fatalist would in anyway deny.
That argument does not avoid the charge of Theistic Fatalism, but in fact affirms it. For what is Theistic Fatalism if not God’s determination of not only the ends but every single desire, thought and action (i.e. “means”) that bring about those ends?
What do the Calvinists think this qualification is accomplishing in their effort to distinguish themselves from the Theistic Fatalist? The belief that God unchangeably causes every meticulous detail of both the ends and their given means is at the very heart of Theistic Fatalism.
Are there Theistic Fatalists out there arguing, “God doesn’t determine the means,” while the Calvinists are going around correcting them saying, “No, no, no God does control the means too?” Of course not. Both systems of thought clearly affirm God’s cause of all things, including the ends and their respective means.
So, what is the Calvinist seeking to accomplish by pointing out a common belief that Calvinists share with Theistic Fatalists?
It appears to me the only real difference between a Theistic Fatalist and a Compatibilistic Calvinist is that the latter refuses to accept the practical implications of their own claims in order to remain consistent with the clear teaching of the Bible. Leighton Flowers
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Post by Theophilus on Mar 6, 2023 6:31:30 GMT -8
Soteriologically, the Reformed view is about Reprobation and Election or unconditional salvation and unconditional damnation. As already noted, it is about theistic fatalism. A theist says there is one all powerful, all knowing, present everywhere at once God, just as do all Reformed and non-Reformed Evangelical Christians. Fatalism is the belief that the future, especially where a person goes when they die, is predetermined and fixed by God, as is the case of all Reformed and Calvinist believers. Theistic fatalism teaches that a person is from and to all eternity locked into salvation or damnation and cannot alter their destiny one way or the other. If a person does not embrace theistic fatalism he does not believe in the Reformed doctrine of grace. According to Calvin, God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined those chosen or elected to salvation. The reprobate (non-elect for salvation) is doomed for destruction. The eternal and immutable counsel of God determines this destruction. God passes by the non-elect, excluding them from his saving will or his decree of salvation. Reformed theology calls this “preterition.” It is defined as God’s sovereign passing by of the non-elect, thus excluding them from his decree of salvation. This determination was made by the pleasure of God. The determined destruction of the reprobate is without respect to human worth. God is just (in those he gives life) and blameless (in those to whom he dooms to destruction). God’s judgment is beyond our understanding. To me, the word Reformed is not used pejoratively but is simply a fair and accurate designation of a particular theological leaning or interpretation of Scripture related to salvation and damnation. Begg is not only clear but interesting, engaging and frankly just about as good a speaker as one can find. Begg is not only greatly appreciated by a large so-called lay audience, including those in his own very large church, but is also respected among many scholars and theologians both inside and outside the Reformed community. There are many things that Begg believes and teaches unrelated to Reformed soteriology that I (along with many other non-Reformed Evangelicals) wholeheartedly agree with. georgelbryson.wordpress.com/2018/03/29/alister-begg-and-theistic-fatalism/ |
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Post by Theophilus on Mar 6, 2023 6:32:53 GMT -8
Whoever is causally responsible for sin is a sinner, and yet we know God cannot sin. Therefore, determinism is false. But we also sense we can act differently than we do, and there are multiple good reasons why determinism fails. Determinism, fatalism, deterministic fatalism, theistic determinism, theistic fatalism are all false.
Therefor the Calvinists teaching on Gods Sovereignty are also false. Their teaching on mans free will are false, their teaching on the doctrines of grace are false. It is why calvinism is not mainstream Christianity but fringe.
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Post by Theophilus on Mar 6, 2023 6:33:38 GMT -8
In spite of his status as a reformation icon Calvin seem not to understand that in terms of its organizing principles theistic fatalism is as much fatalism as is the teaching of Aristotle. And, because he did not teach a mechanistic form of fatalism Calvin claimed (wrongly) that his brand of theistic fatalism was not fatalism. “Those who would cast obloquy on this doctrine, (predestination) calumniate it as the dogma of the Stoics concerning fate. The same charge was formerly brought against Augustine, (lib. ad Bonifac. II, c. 6 et alibi.) We are unwilling to dispute about words; but we do not admit the term Fate …. [W]e maintain that by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (Calvin, Institutes bk.1, chap, 16, sec.8,) If the “wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course” God predestined how is that not fatalism? Laurence Vance points out that Calvin’s teaching is fatalism for the reason it contains the essential features of Aristotle teachings that everything that happen in the universe is a reaction to an external compulsive source. “Although Calvinists go out of their way to distance themselves from fatalism, they are in essence teaching the same thing. When a philosopher believes ‘what is to be will be’ it is called determinism. When a Stoic believes ‘what is to be will be’ it is called fate. When a Moslem believes ‘what is to be will be’ it is called fatalism. But when a Calvinist believes ‘what is to be will be’ it is called predestination.” (The Other Side of Calvinism p.278) Aristotle’s fatalism supplied the model Calvin needed to demonstrate God’s total control over the universe. “Aristotle’s conception of a God, outside of the world, causing all motion in nature, supplying the efficient cause for the universe, was just suited for a philosophy whose primary purpose was to find confirmation for the Church. The fact that Aristotle’s God was devoid of all qualities so essential for a religious Divine Creator offered small difficulty to the theologians, whose minds were very quick to find reasons and explanations even for things most mysterious.” (Henry Alphern, An Outline History of Philosophy (Forum House, 1969) p.11) Double Predestination Calvin taught what is known as double predestination. In this theory God worked out a plan in eternity in which He determined that only a small minority would be saved and the vast majority would be consigned to eternal destruction. In Calvin’s theory of predestination God determined the time and place when each individual would be born and the type of life they would live down to the smallest detail. Moreover, in Calvin’s theistic fatalism every person is reduce to the level of a robot capable of only doing what is written in a heavenly script. “…the reason why God elects some and rejects others is to be found in His purpose alone. … before men are born their lot is assigned to each of them by the secret will of God. … the predestination to death of those who perish is … the will of God. … God has chosen to salvation those whom He pleased, and has rejected the others, without our knowing why …. (Calvin’s New Testament Commentaries: Romans and Thessalonians, pp.203, 208) Calvin’s outrageous claim that “the predestination to death of those who perish is … the will of God” is heretical nonsense. “The Lord is … not willing any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2Peter 3:9) Calvin’s theory that God predestined millions to “eternal death” even before they were born was recycled in the Westminster Confession which says, “By the decree of God … some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.” (Westminster Confession of Faith, chap.3, sec.3) According to Calvin all life forms on earth experience a robotic existence in which the entire created order is directed by a master plan conceived in eternity that controls all outcomes. There is no such thing as free choice, accidents or unintended consequences. There is no genuine resistance to the will of God because those who oppose the will of God are predestined to it. All aspects of life are an irresistible expression of the divine intention. Matt Permen identifies the core thesis in Calvin’s doctrine of theistic fatalism as despotic dictatorship. “God’s sovereignty as I am convinced the Bible teaches it means that God has foreordained everything that happens. Before creation, God planned and decided (ordained) the entire course of human history down to the smallest detail. All circumstances in time are therefore the outworking of God’s plan which He decreed in eternity.” (Matt Permen, If God is Sovereign Why do Anything, www.gecities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/sov.html)If the idea that “the entire course of human history down to the smallest details [is] … the outworking of God’s plan which He decreed in eternity” is not fatalism or cosmic dictatorship by deity, then what exactly is it? |
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Post by Theophilus on Mar 6, 2023 6:34:20 GMT -8
The God of good and evil Calvin’s doctrine of theistic fatalism makes God the ultimate source of evil; He says “man by the righteous impulsion of God does that which is unlawfu.“1 and “man falls, the Providence of God so ordaining.”2 (1Calvin, Institutes bk.4, chap.18, sec.2, 2Institutes bk. 1, chap. 16) Calvin says one thing but God says the exact opposite. “For they have done outrageous things in Israel … in my name have spoken lies, which I did not tell them to do.” (Jeremiah 29:23) “The people have forsaken Me and have profaned this place by making offerings in it to other gods … they have filled this place with the blood of innocents, and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into My mind.” (Jeremiah 19:4-5) To placate pagan deities Israel sacrificed “their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal.” God declared, “I did not command or decree” the offering of infants as a human sacrifice. However, Calvin says God planned in eternity that Israel would offer children as human sacrifices, and sadly thousands believe him. Also, if it is true “man by the righteous impulsion of God does that which is unlawful” then on moral grounds God has an active participation in human sinfulness and becomes the primary instigator behind every act of evil. If as Calvin says “man by the righteous impulsion of God” commits sin then because of this alleged “impulsion of God” that is supposedly impossible to resist the reality is God first causes sinners to sin and then punishes them with death for committing the sins He Himself compelled them to commit. This is a very sick doctrine. Calvin does not hesitate to say that every act of sin and evil is a manifestation of “the will of God.” “Were not men predestinated by the ordination of God to that corruption which is now held forth as the cause of condemnation? … I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first.” (Calvin, Institutes bk.3, chap. 23, sec.4) “Angels and men, good and bad, do nought but what has been decreed by God.” (Institutes bk2 chap1 sec2) When Calvin is allowed to speak for himself He says that all sin and sinning is a manifestation of the will of God. “By means of the wicked God performs what he had secretly decreed.” (Institutes bk.1, chap.18, sec.4) “[W]e maintain that … the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which [God] has destined.” “The sins which are committed are committed … by the will of God.” “What wickedness soever men commit … proceed also from the will of God.” (Institutes bk.1, chap, 16, sec.8, The Complete Works of John Calvin Article Third, Calvin, A Defence of the Secret Providence of God, Article XIV) Calvinists Arthur Pink endorsed Calvin theistic fatalism that sinners are programmed by God to sin. “Plainly it was God’s will that sin should enter this world … Not only did His omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, but He decreed beforehand that he should do so.” (A W Pink, Sovereignty of God, pp.147, 249) According to Calvin Satan is not a fallen angel who of his own free choice rebelled against God but a purpose built robot whose role as the personification of ultimate evil was programmed by God. For Calvin there was no spontaneous rebellion in heaven, God created Satan and his evil and cunning is everything God intended. “God bends all the reprobate, and even Satan himself at His will … angels and men, good and bad, do nothing but what is appointed by God; … all movements are secretly directed to their end by the hidden inspiration of God.” “In general, indeed, philosophers teach, and the human mind conceives, that all the parts of the world are invigorated by the secret inspiration of God.” (Institutes bk.1, chap.18, bk.4, chap. 16, sec.1) Calvin’s doctrine of double predestination was endorsed by the Synod of Dort (1619) in Holland and in the Westminster Confession (1647) in England. According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, “Calvin affirmed ‘double’ predestination, meaning that both reprobation and election are within the active will of God.”1 Anyone who rejects double predestination has rejected Calvin’s teachings. (1Encyclopaedia Britannica, Predestination) Geoffrey Rudolf Elton says, “This double predestination is the characteristic core of Calvinism, though Calvin did not stress it so much as his followers were to do.” (Geoffrey Rudolf Elton, Reformation In Europe 1517-1579 p.152 Nothing demonstrates Calvin failure to understand the redemptive love of God for all humanity than the following statements, “I maintain that the reprobate are hateful to God.” “God could not look upon us, only to hate us; because there is nothing but wretchedness in us.” (Institutes bk.3, chap.24, sec.17, The Doctrine of Election, www.the-highway.com/Doctrine_of_Election.html)Calvin’s entire thinking is repudiated by the following words of Jesus. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:16) victorchristensen.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/john-calvin’s-gospel-of-theistic-fatalism-2/Calvin’s contribution to theology can be summed up this way; the God he describes is not the biblical God. |
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Post by makesends on Mar 7, 2023 8:51:12 GMT -8
It’s interesting to me that when a Calvinist seeks to defend against the charge of being a “Theistic Fatalist” he often argues “God not only ordains the end; but also the means” as if that is a point the Theistic Fatalist would in anyway deny. That argument does not avoid the charge of Theistic Fatalism, but in fact affirms it. For what is Theistic Fatalism if not God’s determination of not only the ends but every single desire, thought and action (i.e. “means”) that bring about those ends? What do the Calvinists think this qualification is accomplishing in their effort to distinguish themselves from the Theistic Fatalist? The belief that God unchangeably causes every meticulous detail of both the ends and their given means is at the very heart of Theistic Fatalism. Are there Theistic Fatalists out there arguing, “God doesn’t determine the means,” while the Calvinists are going around correcting them saying, “No, no, no God does control the means too?” Of course not. Both systems of thought clearly affirm God’s cause of all things, including the ends and their respective means. So, what is the Calvinist seeking to accomplish by pointing out a common belief that Calvinists share with Theistic Fatalists? It appears to me the only real difference between a Theistic Fatalist and a Compatibilistic Calvinist is that the latter refuses to accept the practical implications of their own claims in order to remain consistent with the clear teaching of the Bible. Leighton Flowers Perhaps the Calvinist means to answer Deistic Fatalism. After all, if it is Theistic (and not Deistic), it is by definition not the same thing as Fatalism. To my mind, at least, Theistic Fatalism is a self-contradictory term. 'Theistic' necessarily invokes not just 'creator', but 'sustainer'; therefore, the concept of fatalism is only in the mind of the creature. See, "Immanence of God". |
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Post by makesends on Mar 7, 2023 9:21:54 GMT -8
Whoever is causally responsible for sin is a sinner, and yet we know God cannot sin. Therefore, determinism is false. But we also sense we can act differently than we do, and there are multiple good reasons why determinism fails. Determinism, fatalism, deterministic fatalism, theistic determinism, theistic fatalism are all false. Therefor the Calvinists teaching on Gods Sovereignty are also false. Their teaching on mans free will are false, their teaching on the doctrines of grace are false. It is why calvinism is not mainstream Christianity but fringe. "Whoever is causally responsible for sin is a sinner" is an irresponsible bit of posing. What exactly does causally responsible mean? Can you logically show that God has not caused, by mere deistic creation, absolutely everything that subsequently comes to pass? Try to be a little more careful with your words. |
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Post by makesends on Mar 7, 2023 10:15:56 GMT -8
Soteriologically, the Reformed view is about Reprobation and Election or unconditional salvation and unconditional damnation. As already noted, it is about theistic fatalism. A theist says there is one all powerful, all knowing, present everywhere at once God, just as do all Reformed and non-Reformed Evangelical Christians. Fatalism is the belief that the future, especially where a person goes when they die, is predetermined and fixed by God, as is the case of all Reformed and Calvinist believers. Theistic fatalism teaches that a person is from and to all eternity locked into salvation or damnation and cannot alter their destiny one way or the other. If a person does not embrace theistic fatalism he does not believe in the Reformed doctrine of grace. According to Calvin, God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined those chosen or elected to salvation. The reprobate (non-elect for salvation) is doomed for destruction. The eternal and immutable counsel of God determines this destruction. God passes by the non-elect, excluding them from his saving will or his decree of salvation. Reformed theology calls this “preterition.” It is defined as God’s sovereign passing by of the non-elect, thus excluding them from his decree of salvation. This determination was made by the pleasure of God. The determined destruction of the reprobate is without respect to human worth. God is just (in those he gives life) and blameless (in those to whom he dooms to destruction). God’s judgment is beyond our understanding. To me, the word Reformed is not used pejoratively but is simply a fair and accurate designation of a particular theological leaning or interpretation of Scripture related to salvation and damnation. Begg is not only clear but interesting, engaging and frankly just about as good a speaker as one can find. Begg is not only greatly appreciated by a large so-called lay audience, including those in his own very large church, but is also respected among many scholars and theologians both inside and outside the Reformed community. There are many things that Begg believes and teaches unrelated to Reformed soteriology that I (along with many other non-Reformed Evangelicals) wholeheartedly agree with. georgelbryson.wordpress.com/2018/03/29/alister-begg-and-theistic-fatalism/As I noted, 'Theistic Fatalism' is a self-contradictory term. The notion of fatalism is simply and merely mechanistic. Theism is most definitely not merely mechanistic; but, instead, in every detail and event, from smallest to largest, God himself is upholding of very existence itself. Logically, being First Cause and Omnipotent, the creation that God spoke into being is in all respects a result of God's causing. But that does not mean he left it to mechanistically fall out as it does. While the charge concerning Calvinism's doctrines —a charge coming from most anti-Calvinists and even, perhaps, some from within 'Calvinism'— is that of a mechanism by which (it is claimed) all things fall out automatically to where there is no significant act of the believer but by puppetry, the truth is that Calvinism/Reformed theology posits a VERY active God —not the Deist God, who is merely creator. The attribute of God's Immanence runs so contrary to deism that deism is rendered alike to an atheism that admits only to a first cause. Thus, here is where I see the awful position of the human mind. It is bad enough that the habit of the will of depravity always tends toward self-determinism. But that the mind of even the redeemed, is possessed of the habit of thinking that if a person is indeed a person, then that person acts independent of cause —which notion Scripture does not teach, unless by the Serpent in the Garden— is cause for despair, were it not also known to be of the "old man". The insistence on self-determination, coming from within the believer is worse, I think, than we can know. We couch it in all sorts of excuses— self-righteously even appealing to personal responsibility, practical motivation and Christian maturity, as if it is not God who works in us both to will and to do according to his good pleasure, and maturity (if we invoke 'learning', concerning maturity) is not learning to operate independent of God's help, but learning to operate IN CHRIST. By the way, 'Reformed' and 'Calvinism' have more to do with Sovereignty and Aseity than with soteriology as such. Soteriology is only an envelope from within a larger mindset. But I have to say, even Sovereignty and Aseity are still our attempts to put handles on things too big for any of us to carry. |
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Post by makesends on Mar 7, 2023 10:24:37 GMT -8
In spite of his status as a reformation icon Calvin seem not to understand that in terms of its organizing principles theistic fatalism is as much fatalism as is the teaching of Aristotle. And, because he did not teach a mechanistic form of fatalism Calvin claimed (wrongly) that his brand of theistic fatalism was not fatalism. “Those who would cast obloquy on this doctrine, (predestination) calumniate it as the dogma of the Stoics concerning fate. The same charge was formerly brought against Augustine, (lib. ad Bonifac. II, c. 6 et alibi.) We are unwilling to dispute about words; but we do not admit the term Fate …. [W]e maintain that by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (Calvin, Institutes bk.1, chap, 16, sec.8,) If the “wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course” God predestined how is that not fatalism? Laurence Vance points out that Calvin’s teaching is fatalism for the reason it contains the essential features of Aristotle teachings that everything that happen in the universe is a reaction to an external compulsive source. “Although Calvinists go out of their way to distance themselves from fatalism, they are in essence teaching the same thing. When a philosopher believes ‘what is to be will be’ it is called determinism. When a Stoic believes ‘what is to be will be’ it is called fate. When a Moslem believes ‘what is to be will be’ it is called fatalism. But when a Calvinist believes ‘what is to be will be’ it is called predestination.” (The Other Side of Calvinism p.278) Aristotle’s fatalism supplied the model Calvin needed to demonstrate God’s total control over the universe. “Aristotle’s conception of a God, outside of the world, causing all motion in nature, supplying the efficient cause for the universe, was just suited for a philosophy whose primary purpose was to find confirmation for the Church. The fact that Aristotle’s God was devoid of all qualities so essential for a religious Divine Creator offered small difficulty to the theologians, whose minds were very quick to find reasons and explanations even for things most mysterious.” (Henry Alphern, An Outline History of Philosophy (Forum House, 1969) p.11) Double Predestination Calvin taught what is known as double predestination. In this theory God worked out a plan in eternity in which He determined that only a small minority would be saved and the vast majority would be consigned to eternal destruction. In Calvin’s theory of predestination God determined the time and place when each individual would be born and the type of life they would live down to the smallest detail. Moreover, in Calvin’s theistic fatalism every person is reduce to the level of a robot capable of only doing what is written in a heavenly script. “…the reason why God elects some and rejects others is to be found in His purpose alone. … before men are born their lot is assigned to each of them by the secret will of God. … the predestination to death of those who perish is … the will of God. … God has chosen to salvation those whom He pleased, and has rejected the others, without our knowing why …. (Calvin’s New Testament Commentaries: Romans and Thessalonians, pp.203, 208) Calvin’s outrageous claim that “the predestination to death of those who perish is … the will of God” is heretical nonsense. “The Lord is … not willing any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2Peter 3:9) Calvin’s theory that God predestined millions to “eternal death” even before they were born was recycled in the Westminster Confession which says, “By the decree of God … some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.” (Westminster Confession of Faith, chap.3, sec.3) According to Calvin all life forms on earth experience a robotic existence in which the entire created order is directed by a master plan conceived in eternity that controls all outcomes. There is no such thing as free choice, accidents or unintended consequences. There is no genuine resistance to the will of God because those who oppose the will of God are predestined to it. All aspects of life are an irresistible expression of the divine intention. Matt Permen identifies the core thesis in Calvin’s doctrine of theistic fatalism as despotic dictatorship. “God’s sovereignty as I am convinced the Bible teaches it means that God has foreordained everything that happens. Before creation, God planned and decided (ordained) the entire course of human history down to the smallest detail. All circumstances in time are therefore the outworking of God’s plan which He decreed in eternity.” (Matt Permen, If God is Sovereign Why do Anything, www.gecities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/sov.html)If the idea that “the entire course of human history down to the smallest details [is] … the outworking of God’s plan which He decreed in eternity” is not fatalism or cosmic dictatorship by deity, then what exactly is it? While I have already dealt with the core of this, I want to restate that the mindset of self-determination that is so automatic from within us all needs to be dealt with. It is THIS that both Calvinist and Arminian, and for that matter, any believer, must constantly be putting to death. It is self-determinism that produces notions of causation apart from God. While I understand that we as temporal creatures must separate notions in order to deal with them, we also should understand that, quite literally, apart from God we can do nothing. It is HE who establishes the reality of our very choices, just as it is only in him that we exist. But we insist on looking at everything backwards. |
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Post by makesends on Mar 7, 2023 10:40:38 GMT -8
The God of good and evil Calvin’s doctrine of theistic fatalism makes God the ultimate source of evil; He says “man by the righteous impulsion of God does that which is unlawfu.“1 and “man falls, the Providence of God so ordaining.”2 (1Calvin, Institutes bk.4, chap.18, sec.2, 2Institutes bk. 1, chap. 16) Calvin says one thing but God says the exact opposite. “For they have done outrageous things in Israel … in my name have spoken lies, which I did not tell them to do.” (Jeremiah 29:23) “The people have forsaken Me and have profaned this place by making offerings in it to other gods … they have filled this place with the blood of innocents, and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into My mind.” (Jeremiah 19:4-5) To placate pagan deities Israel sacrificed “their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal.” God declared, “I did not command or decree” the offering of infants as a human sacrifice. However, Calvin says God planned in eternity that Israel would offer children as human sacrifices, and sadly thousands believe him. Also, if it is true “man by the righteous impulsion of God does that which is unlawful” then on moral grounds God has an active participation in human sinfulness and becomes the primary instigator behind every act of evil. If as Calvin says “man by the righteous impulsion of God” commits sin then because of this alleged “impulsion of God” that is supposedly impossible to resist the reality is God first causes sinners to sin and then punishes them with death for committing the sins He Himself compelled them to commit. This is a very sick doctrine. Calvin does not hesitate to say that every act of sin and evil is a manifestation of “the will of God.” “Were not men predestinated by the ordination of God to that corruption which is now held forth as the cause of condemnation? … I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first.” (Calvin, Institutes bk.3, chap. 23, sec.4) “Angels and men, good and bad, do nought but what has been decreed by God.” (Institutes bk2 chap1 sec2) When Calvin is allowed to speak for himself He says that all sin and sinning is a manifestation of the will of God. “By means of the wicked God performs what he had secretly decreed.” (Institutes bk.1, chap.18, sec.4) “[W]e maintain that … the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which [God] has destined.” “The sins which are committed are committed … by the will of God.” “What wickedness soever men commit … proceed also from the will of God.” (Institutes bk.1, chap, 16, sec.8, The Complete Works of John Calvin Article Third, Calvin, A Defence of the Secret Providence of God, Article XIV) Calvinists Arthur Pink endorsed Calvin theistic fatalism that sinners are programmed by God to sin. “Plainly it was God’s will that sin should enter this world … Not only did His omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, but He decreed beforehand that he should do so.” (A W Pink, Sovereignty of God, pp.147, 249) According to Calvin Satan is not a fallen angel who of his own free choice rebelled against God but a purpose built robot whose role as the personification of ultimate evil was programmed by God. For Calvin there was no spontaneous rebellion in heaven, God created Satan and his evil and cunning is everything God intended. “God bends all the reprobate, and even Satan himself at His will … angels and men, good and bad, do nothing but what is appointed by God; … all movements are secretly directed to their end by the hidden inspiration of God.” “In general, indeed, philosophers teach, and the human mind conceives, that all the parts of the world are invigorated by the secret inspiration of God.” (Institutes bk.1, chap.18, bk.4, chap. 16, sec.1) Calvin’s doctrine of double predestination was endorsed by the Synod of Dort (1619) in Holland and in the Westminster Confession (1647) in England. According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, “Calvin affirmed ‘double’ predestination, meaning that both reprobation and election are within the active will of God.”1 Anyone who rejects double predestination has rejected Calvin’s teachings. (1Encyclopaedia Britannica, Predestination) Geoffrey Rudolf Elton says, “This double predestination is the characteristic core of Calvinism, though Calvin did not stress it so much as his followers were to do.” (Geoffrey Rudolf Elton, Reformation In Europe 1517-1579 p.152 Nothing demonstrates Calvin failure to understand the redemptive love of God for all humanity than the following statements, “I maintain that the reprobate are hateful to God.” “God could not look upon us, only to hate us; because there is nothing but wretchedness in us.” (Institutes bk.3, chap.24, sec.17, The Doctrine of Election, www.the-highway.com/Doctrine_of_Election.html)Calvin’s entire thinking is repudiated by the following words of Jesus. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:16) victorchristensen.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/john-calvin’s-gospel-of-theistic-fatalism-2/Calvin’s contribution to theology can be summed up this way; the God he describes is not the biblical God. Whether you are quoting someone else, or you are coming up with this strawman yourself, you are misrepresenting Calvinism. You are positing it to teach theistic fatalism, and automation, programming. You are wrong, as I have shown in past posts, and I think it is because you can only see it as such because you want to be self-determining, whether you recognize that to be true or not. But what you give, you get. You call it heresy. I call your notions heretical. You attempt to bring God down to your level or to raise yourself to his. You make God not Omniscient. You pretend God is subject to mere chance, or even worse, to the will of his creatures, thus not even allowing God's Omnipotence. And I can say that without even claiming to be a Calvinist. Apparently you think of God deistically, with other occasional small detours of insertion of miracles or other graces. If I was to deal with the individual falsehoods within your posts, I would have to take more time than it is worth. I only pray the readers would see through your claims. |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Mar 7, 2023 13:14:28 GMT -8
Whoever is causally responsible for sin is a sinner, and yet we know God cannot sin. Therefore, determinism is false. But we also sense we can act differently than we do, and there are multiple good reasons why determinism fails. Determinism, fatalism, deterministic fatalism, theistic determinism, theistic fatalism are all false. Therefor the Calvinists teaching on Gods Sovereignty are also false. Their teaching on mans free will are false, their teaching on the doctrines of grace are false. It is why calvinism is not mainstream Christianity but fringe. "Whoever is causally responsible for sin is a sinner" is an irresponsible bit of posing. What exactly does causally responsible mean? Can you logically show that God has not caused, by mere deistic creation, absolutely everything that subsequently comes to pass? Try to be a little more careful with your words. Talk about "posing".....Such is a very simple argument to dissect. Does creating/crafting a hammer make the creator of that hammer culpable or complicit in a murderous use of that hammer. It often amazes just how "coy" Calvinists can be with such argument. You know the issue at hand. Simple solution for you. Just come out and claim that God is culpable or complicit in sin because he desired to create the Universe. Is God culpable/complicit when an astronaut gets killed in outer space because he didn't know what he was doing? Try not to oversimplify. |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Mar 7, 2023 13:17:58 GMT -8
The God of good and evil Calvin’s doctrine of theistic fatalism makes God the ultimate source of evil; He says “man by the righteous impulsion of God does that which is unlawfu.“1 and “man falls, the Providence of God so ordaining.”2 (1Calvin, Institutes bk.4, chap.18, sec.2, 2Institutes bk. 1, chap. 16) Calvin says one thing but God says the exact opposite. “For they have done outrageous things in Israel … in my name have spoken lies, which I did not tell them to do.” (Jeremiah 29:23) “The people have forsaken Me and have profaned this place by making offerings in it to other gods … they have filled this place with the blood of innocents, and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into My mind.” (Jeremiah 19:4-5) To placate pagan deities Israel sacrificed “their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal.” God declared, “I did not command or decree” the offering of infants as a human sacrifice. However, Calvin says God planned in eternity that Israel would offer children as human sacrifices, and sadly thousands believe him. Also, if it is true “man by the righteous impulsion of God does that which is unlawful” then on moral grounds God has an active participation in human sinfulness and becomes the primary instigator behind every act of evil. If as Calvin says “man by the righteous impulsion of God” commits sin then because of this alleged “impulsion of God” that is supposedly impossible to resist the reality is God first causes sinners to sin and then punishes them with death for committing the sins He Himself compelled them to commit. This is a very sick doctrine. Calvin does not hesitate to say that every act of sin and evil is a manifestation of “the will of God.” “Were not men predestinated by the ordination of God to that corruption which is now held forth as the cause of condemnation? … I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first.” (Calvin, Institutes bk.3, chap. 23, sec.4) “Angels and men, good and bad, do nought but what has been decreed by God.” (Institutes bk2 chap1 sec2) When Calvin is allowed to speak for himself He says that all sin and sinning is a manifestation of the will of God. “By means of the wicked God performs what he had secretly decreed.” (Institutes bk.1, chap.18, sec.4) “[W]e maintain that … the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which [God] has destined.” “The sins which are committed are committed … by the will of God.” “What wickedness soever men commit … proceed also from the will of God.” (Institutes bk.1, chap, 16, sec.8, The Complete Works of John Calvin Article Third, Calvin, A Defence of the Secret Providence of God, Article XIV) Calvinists Arthur Pink endorsed Calvin theistic fatalism that sinners are programmed by God to sin. “Plainly it was God’s will that sin should enter this world … Not only did His omniscient eye see Adam eating of the forbidden fruit, but He decreed beforehand that he should do so.” (A W Pink, Sovereignty of God, pp.147, 249) According to Calvin Satan is not a fallen angel who of his own free choice rebelled against God but a purpose built robot whose role as the personification of ultimate evil was programmed by God. For Calvin there was no spontaneous rebellion in heaven, God created Satan and his evil and cunning is everything God intended. “God bends all the reprobate, and even Satan himself at His will … angels and men, good and bad, do nothing but what is appointed by God; … all movements are secretly directed to their end by the hidden inspiration of God.” “In general, indeed, philosophers teach, and the human mind conceives, that all the parts of the world are invigorated by the secret inspiration of God.” (Institutes bk.1, chap.18, bk.4, chap. 16, sec.1) Calvin’s doctrine of double predestination was endorsed by the Synod of Dort (1619) in Holland and in the Westminster Confession (1647) in England. According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, “Calvin affirmed ‘double’ predestination, meaning that both reprobation and election are within the active will of God.”1 Anyone who rejects double predestination has rejected Calvin’s teachings. (1Encyclopaedia Britannica, Predestination) Geoffrey Rudolf Elton says, “This double predestination is the characteristic core of Calvinism, though Calvin did not stress it so much as his followers were to do.” (Geoffrey Rudolf Elton, Reformation In Europe 1517-1579 p.152 Nothing demonstrates Calvin failure to understand the redemptive love of God for all humanity than the following statements, “I maintain that the reprobate are hateful to God.” “God could not look upon us, only to hate us; because there is nothing but wretchedness in us.” (Institutes bk.3, chap.24, sec.17, The Doctrine of Election, www.the-highway.com/Doctrine_of_Election.html)Calvin’s entire thinking is repudiated by the following words of Jesus. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:16) victorchristensen.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/john-calvin’s-gospel-of-theistic-fatalism-2/Calvin’s contribution to theology can be summed up this way; the God he describes is not the biblical God. Whether you are quoting someone else, or you are coming up with this strawman yourself, you are misrepresenting Calvinism. You are positing it to teach theistic fatalism, and automation, programming. You are wrong, as I have shown in past posts, and I think it is because you can only see it as such because you want to be self-determining, whether you recognize that to be true or not. But what you give, you get. You call it heresy. I call your notions heretical. You attempt to bring God down to your level or to raise yourself to his. You make God not Omniscient. You pretend God is subject to mere chance, or even worse, to the will of his creatures, thus not even allowing God's Omnipotence. And I can say that without even claiming to be a Calvinist. Apparently you think of God deistically, with other occasional small detours of insertion of miracles or other graces. If I was to deal with the individual falsehoods within your posts, I would have to take more time than it is worth. I only pray the readers would see through your claims. Some Calvinist certainly protrary their beliefs in a manner that can easily be seen as "Theistic Fatalism". You know how I know? Many of them believe that all events are "predetermined and inevitable". That is the very definition of fatalism. You don't have to waste much time to explain how you're resisting such a specific and detailed definition. |
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