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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 19, 2022 6:49:35 GMT -8
I would say the next world war will be the great tribulation. I believe the leader will come out of Europe through a loosely held European union who is taken over by a charismatic leader who gains control of the whole world as spoken. That at the end of that war. something so great is launched that it would creat an extinction event (no life would be spared as Jesus said) and that at that very moment, Christ returns.. As for Hal lindsey. I never studied what he wrote so I can not tell you what he believed I believe Hal was the first author to write about the Western European antichrist theory. The Bible predicts a war that will kill a 3rd in Rev 9. This is in addition to the 25% killed earlier by war, famine and disease in Rev 6.The tribulation will occur in between the two wars Rev 6. Western european union? Never heard of this. I just believe it will be a power that comes from the area that rome held in the 1st century. so it appears as rome. and the pronce who leads willbe out of the people who destroyed the city in 70 AD (dan 9) That war that kills a 3rd of heaven famine and disease etc etc. That's all part of the great tribulation. Which is also called jacob's trouble. or the time of Gods wrath.. It starts in the Rev 4 - in the throneroom when the lamb opens the seal. and ends with the return of Christ at the end of Chapeter 19 and the begining of chapter 20 when The beast and false prophet are captured. and satan is bound |
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 19, 2022 6:56:40 GMT -8
I believe Hal was the first author to write about the Western European antichrist theory. The Bible predicts a war that will kill a 3rd in Rev 9. This is in addition to the 25% killed earlier by war, famine and disease in Rev 6.The tribulation will occur in between the two wars Rev 6. Western european union? Never heard of this. I just believe it will be a power that comes from the area that rome held in the 1st century. so it appears as rome. and the pronce who leads willbe out of the people who destroyed the city in 70 AD (dan 9) That war that kills a 3rd of heaven famine and disease etc etc. That's all part of the great tribulation. Which is also called jacob's trouble. or the time of Gods wrath.. It starts in the Rev 4 - in the throneroom when the lamb opens the seal. and ends with the return of Christ at the end of Chapeter 19 and the begining of chapter 20 when The beast and false prophet are captured. and satan is bound The wrath of God is the events of the 6th and 7th seals. Rev 6:17. It is a respose to the prayers of God`s people during the tribulation which occurs with the opening of the 5th seal. Rev 6:9-11. Just as an FYI, Western European Union is the old name for the EU. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 19, 2022 8:43:41 GMT -8
Western european union? Never heard of this. I just believe it will be a power that comes from the area that rome held in the 1st century. so it appears as rome. and the pronce who leads willbe out of the people who destroyed the city in 70 AD (dan 9) That war that kills a 3rd of heaven famine and disease etc etc. That's all part of the great tribulation. Which is also called jacob's trouble. or the time of Gods wrath.. It starts in the Rev 4 - in the throneroom when the lamb opens the seal. and ends with the return of Christ at the end of Chapeter 19 and the begining of chapter 20 when The beast and false prophet are captured. and satan is bound The wrath of God is the events of the 6th and 7th seals. Rev 6:17. It is a respose to the prayers of God`s people during the tribulation which occurs with the opening of the 5th seal. Rev 6:9-11. Just as an FYI, Western European Union is the old name for the EU. I disagree, I think the wrath includes everything from the first seal on. As for the EU. I know many people see them, but I believe it has more than ten nations.. The final power starts off as ten. then one rises up to subdue 3. and he himself is the 8th. one thing I do know. if the EU would actually combine its resources. It would be a world power. One of the most powerful as far as military power, economy and people go. but that does not mean that is the final beast |
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 19, 2022 9:49:15 GMT -8
The wrath of God is the events of the 6th and 7th seals. Rev 6:17. It is a respose to the prayers of God`s people during the tribulation which occurs with the opening of the 5th seal. Rev 6:9-11. Just as an FYI, Western European Union is the old name for the EU. I disagree, I think the wrath includes everything from the first seal on. As for the EU. I know many people see them, but I believe it has more than ten nations.. The final power starts off as ten. then one rises up to subdue 3. and he himself is the 8th. one thing I do know. if the EU would actually combine its resources. It would be a world power. One of the most powerful as far as military power, economy and people go. but that does not mean that is the final beast Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.The Bible says the seven vials of plauges are the wrath of God. The tribulation is the wrath of Satan and some of it is just suffering man inflicts on himself. I think its important to discern the difference, often times the Bible is the best interpreter. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 19, 2022 10:19:38 GMT -8
I disagree, I think the wrath includes everything from the first seal on. As for the EU. I know many people see them, but I believe it has more than ten nations.. The final power starts off as ten. then one rises up to subdue 3. and he himself is the 8th. one thing I do know. if the EU would actually combine its resources. It would be a world power. One of the most powerful as far as military power, economy and people go. but that does not mean that is the final beast Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.The Bible says the seven vials of plauges are the wrath of God. The tribulation is the wrath of Satan and some of it is just suffering man inflicts on himself. I think its important to discern the difference, often times the Bible is the best interpreter. again, I disagree. Time and time again, God used other nations to pour out his wrath on Israel. God uses satan to punish evil.. the whole of the 3.5 years of tribulation. is Gods wrath.. The seal, the bowl and the trumpets are all Gods wrath. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 19, 2022 10:23:37 GMT -8
next in my study, I move to rev 17
rev 17
7 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.
12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”
1. final beast, was, is not, and will ascend out of nothingness. (mortal wound healed)
2. 7 kings.
3. Kings - 5 have fallen (egypt, assyria, babylon, media-persia, greek) One is )Rome was in power at the time John wrote these words) one who is yet to come (future king who at the time of john had not been in power yet)
4. the one who has not yet appeared; Will be given power for only a short time , also, was, then was not, then was again, but going to perdition (will be empowered by satan himself)
5. ten kings, no authority yet, but will be granted power (ten kingdoms) for a short time with the beast
6. will give their power to the beast (making it one united kingdom)
7. will make war with the saints, but will not prevail,
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 19, 2022 12:25:13 GMT -8
Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.The Bible says the seven vials of plauges are the wrath of God. The tribulation is the wrath of Satan and some of it is just suffering man inflicts on himself. I think its important to discern the difference, often times the Bible is the best interpreter. again, I disagree. Time and time again, God used other nations to pour out his wrath on Israel. God uses satan to punish evil.. the whole of the 3.5 years of tribulation. is Gods wrath.. The seal, the bowl and the trumpets are all Gods wrath. So you are telling me the genocide of believers in the tribulation is God`s wrath? |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 19, 2022 13:53:29 GMT -8
again, I disagree. Time and time again, God used other nations to pour out his wrath on Israel. God uses satan to punish evil.. the whole of the 3.5 years of tribulation. is Gods wrath.. The seal, the bowl and the trumpets are all Gods wrath. So you are telling me the genocide of believers in the tribulation is God`s wrath? Its all part of the great tribulation period on the earth. Remember, God is the one who allows him to go after the children.. Part of Gods wrath on Israel caused jewish believers to die.. If nothign else. They were taken into slavery.. (ie daniel) |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2022 8:04:59 GMT -8
The problem is when you look at the 4th kingdom. Especially in daniel 7, You see parts of that kingdom that til this day has not been fulfilled. No, that is not the problem. The problem is the interpretive approach to scripture that is inherently eisegetic in nature and thereby adds to scripture things nowhere stated in the scriptures, and the only reason that happens is because of the search for those never-stated conditions. It can ALL be addressed by reading the text exactly as written, standing first and firmly on what is explicitly stated and not adding things never stated, and the building exegetically from what is stated. This op does the former, not the latter. When asked about this misguided practice the misguided practice is reasserted (argumentum ad nauseam). There tend to be three kinds of inference that Christians do when reading scripture. 1) Inferential inferences: These are inferences that have no objective basis. A person begins with a haphazard interpretation and continues to infer interpretively by constantly asserting their interpretive views interpretively. Jesus said the eyes are the lamp of the soul so beams of light were emitted from his eyes and he could see into people's bodies and souls like an x-ray or CAT-Scan. That's just nonsense. 2) Eisegetic inference: These inferences start with a pre-existing belief and the scriptures are read with that belief in mind as a filter for everything that is read. An example of this would be the beli3ef in a future temple. Anyone holding that belief then reads all the mentions of any temple in prophecy to indicate a future temple will be built despite the fact scripture never actually states a third temple will be built in the 21st century (or any other future century. 3) Exegetic inference: These inferences start with what is plainly stated, reading scripture as written, understanding the words in normal usage with their ordinary meaning and making inferences only when and where the scriptures themselves provide warrant for doing so AND then letting scripture define and clarify its own inferences first. An example of this would Be Joel 2's prophecy God will pour out His Spirt being defined by scripture in the New Testament in Acts 2. Daniel does not state there are five kingdoms. It plainly states four, not five AND it plainly states four and not five and NEVER mentions five anywhere. Ever. So when we read or hear teachers in modernity say there are five we don't go looking to other Christians and other Christians' views for confirmation or dissent - we look to scripture read as written. And then we make note of the teachers who have clearly abused scripture to teach their own agenda and we avoid them as false teachers. Prophecy News Watch would be a prime example of false teaching. They have never once predicted anything correctly. I noticed Hal Lindsay was mentioned. He is another false teacher. I first read his books in the late 1970s and I believed what he wrote. Not a single prediction he made came true. Not one. He never repented from his false teaching. He has never repented from causing people to believe errors he taught them. He has never made any amends to anyone he wronged with his false teachings. He has, instead, stopped making specific predictions but continued his methods so as to keep people constantly looking for things that never happen while he ravenously makes lots of money doing so. Deuteronomy 18:20-22
But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.' "You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. Matthew 7:14 Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.Matthew 24:11
Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.1 Timothy 4:1-2
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron...2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. If it does not come true, then it is not from God. We know it is not from God because it did not come true. We know the "prophet" is not a prophet of God. Nothing Prophecy News Watch (PNW) or Hal Lindsay have ever predicted concerning the return of Christ has ever come true and in the case of PNW we can objectively verify what they say about Daniel is not what Daniel states in Daniel about Daniel AND what PNW says ALSO directly contradicts later revelation from God. I have provided the evidence of scripture, not personal opinions or alternative eschatological points of view. The reader may continue to be a futurist if they so choose, but they should not do so based on PNW's or Lindsay's teachings. Those two sources are demonstrably false teachers. There are a lot of false teachers out and about nowadays and they can be recognized by the standards of scripture because scripture stated those standards for the very purpose of doing just that: recognizing them as false teachers, ignoring their teachings as falsehoods based on abuses of scripture, and not following them as godly sources. Daniel plainly states four, not five, and we should not try to rearrange what is stated to make it say otherwise. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 20, 2022 10:34:40 GMT -8
The problem is when you look at the 4th kingdom. Especially in daniel 7, You see parts of that kingdom that til this day has not been fulfilled. No, that is not the problem. The problem is the interpretive approach to scripture that is inherently eisegetic in nature and thereby adds to scripture things nowhere stated in the scriptures, and the only reason that happens is because of the search for those never-stated conditions. It can ALL be addressed by reading the text exactly as written, standing first and firmly on what is explicitly stated and not adding things never stated, and the building exegetically from what is stated. This op does the former, not the latter. When asked about this misguided practice the misguided practice is reasserted (argumentum ad nauseam). There tend to be three kinds of inference that Christians do when reading scripture. 1) Inferential inferences: These are inferences that have no objective basis. A person begins with a haphazard interpretation and continues to infer interpretively by constantly asserting their interpretive views interpretively. Jesus said the eyes are the lamp of the soul so beams of light were emitted from his eyes and he could see into people's bodies and souls like an x-ray or CAT-Scan. That's just nonsense. 2) Eisegetic inference: These inferences start with a pre-existing belief and the scriptures are read with that belief in mind as a filter for everything that is read. An example of this would be the beli3ef in a future temple. Anyone holding that belief then reads all the mentions of any temple in prophecy to indicate a future temple will be built despite the fact scripture never actually states a third temple will be built in the 21st century (or any other future century. 3) Exegetic inference: These inferences start with what is plainly stated, reading scripture as written, understanding the words in normal usage with their ordinary meaning and making inferences only when and where the scriptures themselves provide warrant for doing so AND then letting scripture define and clarify its own inferences first. An example of this would Be Joel 2's prophecy God will pour out His Spirt being defined by scripture in the New Testament in Acts 2. Daniel does not state there are five kingdoms. It plainly states four, not five AND it plainly states four and not five and NEVER mentions five anywhere. Ever. So when we read or hear teachers in modernity say there are five we don't go looking to other Christians and other Christians' views for confirmation or dissent - we look to scripture read as written. And then we make note of the teachers who have clearly abused scripture to teach their own agenda and we avoid them as false teachers. Prophecy News Watch would be a prime example of false teaching. They have never once predicted anything correctly. I noticed Hal Lindsay was mentioned. He is another false teacher. I first read his books in the late 1970s and I believed what he wrote. Not a single prediction he made came true. Not one. He never repented from his false teaching. He has never repented from causing people to believe errors he taught them. He has never made any amends to anyone he wronged with his false teachings. He has, instead, stopped making specific predictions but continued his methods so as to keep people constantly looking for things that never happen while he ravenously makes lots of money doing so. Deuteronomy 18:20-22
But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.' "You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. Matthew 7:14 Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.Matthew 24:11
Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.1 Timothy 4:1-2
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron...2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. If it does not come true, then it is not from God. We know it is not from God because it did not come true. We know the "prophet" is not a prophet of God. Nothing Prophecy News Watch (PNW) or Hal Lindsay have ever predicted concerning the return of Christ has ever come true and in the case of PNW we can objectively verify what they say about Daniel is not what Daniel states in Daniel about Daniel AND what PNW says ALSO directly contradicts later revelation from God. I have provided the evidence of scripture, not personal opinions or alternative eschatological points of view. The reader may continue to be a futurist if they so choose, but they should not do so based on PNW's or Lindsay's teachings. Those two sources are demonstrably false teachers. There are a lot of false teachers out and about nowadays and they can be recognized by the standards of scripture because scripture stated those standards for the very purpose of doing just that: recognizing them as false teachers, ignoring their teachings as falsehoods based on abuses of scripture, and not following them as godly sources. Daniel plainly states four, not five, and we should not try to rearrange what is stated to make it say otherwise. My friend, You have had ample time to try and actually convince me that what you are saying is true.. I even admitted that the final kingdom is split into two era’s but are the same kingdom. Yet here you are still unable to actually show how I am wrong/Just a lot of flack. I will let you be, because you really have nothing to offer.. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2022 15:18:51 GMT -8
No, that is not the problem. The problem is the interpretive approach to scripture that is inherently eisegetic in nature and thereby adds to scripture things nowhere stated in the scriptures, and the only reason that happens is because of the search for those never-stated conditions. It can ALL be addressed by reading the text exactly as written, standing first and firmly on what is explicitly stated and not adding things never stated, and the building exegetically from what is stated. This op does the former, not the latter. When asked about this misguided practice the misguided practice is reasserted (argumentum ad nauseam). There tend to be three kinds of inference that Christians do when reading scripture. 1) Inferential inferences: These are inferences that have no objective basis. A person begins with a haphazard interpretation and continues to infer interpretively by constantly asserting their interpretive views interpretively. Jesus said the eyes are the lamp of the soul so beams of light were emitted from his eyes and he could see into people's bodies and souls like an x-ray or CAT-Scan. That's just nonsense. 2) Eisegetic inference: These inferences start with a pre-existing belief and the scriptures are read with that belief in mind as a filter for everything that is read. An example of this would be the beli3ef in a future temple. Anyone holding that belief then reads all the mentions of any temple in prophecy to indicate a future temple will be built despite the fact scripture never actually states a third temple will be built in the 21st century (or any other future century. 3) Exegetic inference: These inferences start with what is plainly stated, reading scripture as written, understanding the words in normal usage with their ordinary meaning and making inferences only when and where the scriptures themselves provide warrant for doing so AND then letting scripture define and clarify its own inferences first. An example of this would Be Joel 2's prophecy God will pour out His Spirt being defined by scripture in the New Testament in Acts 2. Daniel does not state there are five kingdoms. It plainly states four, not five AND it plainly states four and not five and NEVER mentions five anywhere. Ever. So when we read or hear teachers in modernity say there are five we don't go looking to other Christians and other Christians' views for confirmation or dissent - we look to scripture read as written. And then we make note of the teachers who have clearly abused scripture to teach their own agenda and we avoid them as false teachers. Prophecy News Watch would be a prime example of false teaching. They have never once predicted anything correctly. I noticed Hal Lindsay was mentioned. He is another false teacher. I first read his books in the late 1970s and I believed what he wrote. Not a single prediction he made came true. Not one. He never repented from his false teaching. He has never repented from causing people to believe errors he taught them. He has never made any amends to anyone he wronged with his false teachings. He has, instead, stopped making specific predictions but continued his methods so as to keep people constantly looking for things that never happen while he ravenously makes lots of money doing so. Deuteronomy 18:20-22
But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.' "You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. Matthew 7:14 Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.Matthew 24:11
Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.1 Timothy 4:1-2
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron...2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. If it does not come true, then it is not from God. We know it is not from God because it did not come true. We know the "prophet" is not a prophet of God. Nothing Prophecy News Watch (PNW) or Hal Lindsay have ever predicted concerning the return of Christ has ever come true and in the case of PNW we can objectively verify what they say about Daniel is not what Daniel states in Daniel about Daniel AND what PNW says ALSO directly contradicts later revelation from God. I have provided the evidence of scripture, not personal opinions or alternative eschatological points of view. The reader may continue to be a futurist if they so choose, but they should not do so based on PNW's or Lindsay's teachings. Those two sources are demonstrably false teachers. There are a lot of false teachers out and about nowadays and they can be recognized by the standards of scripture because scripture stated those standards for the very purpose of doing just that: recognizing them as false teachers, ignoring their teachings as falsehoods based on abuses of scripture, and not following them as godly sources. Daniel plainly states four, not five, and we should not try to rearrange what is stated to make it say otherwise. My friend, You have had ample time to try and actually convince me that what you are saying is true.. I even admitted that the final kingdom is split into two era’s but are the same kingdom. Scripture should convince you. I pointed everyone to the scriptures and the scriptures alone. The four kingdoms were not admitted. You're on record saying four is five. The fourth kingdom divided amounts to a fifth kingdom in your interpretation, an interpretation taken from an extra-biblical source and not scripture plainly read. Not only is that source an extra-biblical source that undeniably contradicts scripture, it does so based on an eschatology that was literally invented 1800 years after the canon of scripture was closed, and almost 2400 years after Daniel. On top of those facts, that source has never been correct about anything it has predicted and all you'd have to do is to refute that is find just one thing they've predicted concerning the return of Christ they got right. Let scripture be what persuades you. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 20, 2022 16:00:37 GMT -8
My friend, You have had ample time to try and actually convince me that what you are saying is true.. I even admitted that the final kingdom is split into two era’s but are the same kingdom. Scripture should convince you. I pointed everyone to the scriptures and the scriptures alone. The four kingdoms were not admitted. You're on record saying four is five. The fourth kingdom divided amounts to a fifth kingdom in your interpretation, an interpretation taken from an extra-biblical source and not scripture plainly read. Not only is that source an extra-biblical source that undeniably contradicts scripture, it does so based on an eschatology that was literally invented 1800 years after the canon of scripture was closed, and almost 2400 years after Daniel. On top of those facts, that source has never been correct about anything it has predicted and all you'd have to do is to refute that is find just one thing they've predicted concerning the return of Christ they got right. Let scripture be what persuades you. Scripture has persuaded me Rom in christ time was the legs of Iron. And the begining of the 4th beast However. Things about the final form of the 4th beast was never fulfilled by rome in christ day. They have not been fulfilled till this day. That leaves me with two options Do like far to many people an make an allegory of what is said about that beast to make it appear to be fulfilled Or do what scripture tells me to do and realise that it is a as of yet future kingdom.. I you read my posting you will see I did not just use to passages, I went to revelation also. And we see the same things said about this kingdom. And who it is, when it will be, and what it will do. And there are many more passages I could use. Once again, If you can prove me wrong. Feel free. Otherwise I will listen to scripture.. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2022 6:45:40 GMT -8
Scripture should convince you. I pointed everyone to the scriptures and the scriptures alone. The four kingdoms were not admitted. You're on record saying four is five. The fourth kingdom divided amounts to a fifth kingdom in your interpretation, an interpretation taken from an extra-biblical source and not scripture plainly read. Not only is that source an extra-biblical source that undeniably contradicts scripture, it does so based on an eschatology that was literally invented 1800 years after the canon of scripture was closed, and almost 2400 years after Daniel. On top of those facts, that source has never been correct about anything it has predicted and all you'd have to do is to refute that is find just one thing they've predicted concerning the return of Christ they got right. Let scripture be what persuades you. Scripture has persuaded me. The evidence says otherwise. Rom in christ time was the legs of Iron. And the beginning of the 4th beast. That is not what scripture states. This is where you are NOT letting scripture persuade you, but are instead adding something to it.However. Things about the final form of the 4th beast was never fulfilled by rome in christ day. They have not been fulfilled till this day. Sure it has. The fact that you think otherwise is another example of not being persuaded by scripture.
That leaves me with two options Do like far too many people and make an allegory of what is said about that beast to make it appear to be fulfilled. That's laughable because the legs being Rome is an allegory. God, not humans, used figurative language in Daniel. God was the one asserting allegorical content. The best means of understanding God's use of allegory, symbolism, and/or figurative language is scripture itself and you're on record adding to scripture NOT letting it speak for itself, not letting it persuade you as written. Or do what scripture tells me to do and realise that it is a as of yet future kingdom. Again, nowhere does scripture state "It hasn't yet happened in the 21st century." That's just another example of you not letting scripture speak for itself, scropture not persuading, and you adding to it because of a pre-existing belief. If you read my posting you will see I did not just use to passages, I went to revelation also. I commented on your use of one chapter in Revelation. I commented on the attempt to change the subject to a different chapter in Revelation. I did read your posts. Your use of Revelation is just as problematic as the use of Daniel's 4 beasts being five, one of them separated by two millennia of time a space. I showed where neither Daniel nor Revelation actually state what they are made to say and what they are made to say directly contradicts what is stated. I did not offer any alternative opinion; I pointed everyone to scripture, scripture alone, and scripture alone plainly read as written using other scripture to interpret whatever figures, symbols, and/or allegory God Himself asserted (such as the statue, the heads, the horns, etc.) We don't need to do any interpreting where God has defined His terms.
And yet that is exactly what PNW did; they added interpretations where God has already defined His terms. Let the scripture be what persuades you.And we see the same things said about this kingdom. And who it is, when it will be, and what it will do. You do. I don't. I do not subject scripture to modern newscasts or modern perceptions of "history." I submit my understand of the time and place in which I was assigned to live to scripture plainly read as written and properly exegeted. When you appela to "We see the same things," what you're doing is making yourself, our ourselves, the arbiters of scripture. The implication is if we didn't "see" is then it must not be true or it must not be happening. That's just wrong. Furthermore, I could show you many places where the circumstances God purportedly said would happen in modern futurist eschatology are not things we see.
But that would be off-topic from Daniel's 4 beasts. And there are many more passages I could use. Until I see a proper handling of Daniel's beasts I'm not interested. It's very common practice for Christians discussing prophecy to have difficulty staying on topic. This is especially true of modern futurists and the dispensationalist eschatologies. The degree of copy and paste eisegesis that occurs among that group is grievously abounding. It's a tactic. Keeps them from having to stay with one aspect of scripture until a full understanding is attained. Keeps them from finding agreement with their siblings on occasions when agreement could be had..... such as Daniel's beasts being four in number and not five. Once again, If you can prove me wrong. Feel free. Otherwise, I will listen to scripture. I have. Daniel's beasts are four in number. That is demonstrably provable. You are not listening to scripture.
The number five is not mentioned anywhere in Daniel 2 or 7, or Revelation 13. This too is demonstrably provable. Scripture was not listened to.
Your own posts alternate between four and five and thereby contradict one another. The solution lies in sticking to what is stated in scripture. You are not listening to scripture.
The statue outside the UN looks nothing like the beast of Revelation 13. This is demonstrably provable simply by reading the text of Revelation. You are not listening to scripture.
I did prove you wrong.
You are not listening to scripture..... and now you're making it about you and me despite my constant effort to make this about scripture.
This op is about Daniel's four beasts. There are four beasts in Daniel. Revelation 13 has two beasts, not one. Let's just start there. Can you acknowledge there are only four beasts in Daniel and not five? Can you acknowledge there are two beasts in Revelation 13, and not one. Can you acknowledge the scriptures do not actually state Rome is the fourth beast? Can you acknowledge the additional kingdom in Daniel is one set up by God? Can you acknowledge the kingdom set up by God occurs during the time of Daniel's four kings?
These are the things the scripture actually states.
Let scripture persuade. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 21, 2022 8:40:49 GMT -8
Scripture has persuaded me. The evidence says otherwise. Rom in christ time was the legs of Iron. And the beginning of the 4th beast. That is not what scripture states. This is where you are NOT letting scripture persuade you, but are instead adding something to it.However. Things about the final form of the 4th beast was never fulfilled by rome in christ day. They have not been fulfilled till this day. Sure it has. The fact that you think otherwise is another example of not being persuaded by scripture.
That leaves me with two options Do like far too many people and make an allegory of what is said about that beast to make it appear to be fulfilled. That's laughable because the legs being Rome is an allegory. God, not humans, used figurative language in Daniel. God was the one asserting allegorical content. The best means of understanding God's use of allegory, symbolism, and/or figurative language is scripture itself and you're on record adding to scripture NOT letting it speak for itself, not letting it persuade you as written. Or do what scripture tells me to do and realise that it is a as of yet future kingdom. Again, nowhere does scripture state "It hasn't yet happened in the 21st century." That's just another example of you not letting scripture speak for itself, scropture not persuading, and you adding to it because of a pre-existing belief. If you read my posting you will see I did not just use to passages, I went to revelation also. I commented on your use of one chapter in Revelation. I commented on the attempt to change the subject to a different chapter in Revelation. I did read your posts. Your use of Revelation is just as problematic as the use of Daniel's 4 beasts being five, one of them separated by two millennia of time a space. I showed where neither Daniel nor Revelation actually state what they are made to say and what they are made to say directly contradicts what is stated. I did not offer any alternative opinion; I pointed everyone to scripture, scripture alone, and scripture alone plainly read as written using other scripture to interpret whatever figures, symbols, and/or allegory God Himself asserted (such as the statue, the heads, the horns, etc.) We don't need to do any interpreting where God has defined His terms.
And yet that is exactly what PNW did; they added interpretations where God has already defined His terms. Let the scripture be what persuades you.And we see the same things said about this kingdom. And who it is, when it will be, and what it will do. You do. I don't. I do not subject scripture to modern newscasts or modern perceptions of "history." I submit my understand of the time and place in which I was assigned to live to scripture plainly read as written and properly exegeted. When you appela to "We see the same things," what you're doing is making yourself, our ourselves, the arbiters of scripture. The implication is if we didn't "see" is then it must not be true or it must not be happening. That's just wrong. Furthermore, I could show you many places where the circumstances God purportedly said would happen in modern futurist eschatology are not things we see.
But that would be off-topic from Daniel's 4 beasts. And there are many more passages I could use. Until I see a proper handling of Daniel's beasts I'm not interested. It's very common practice for Christians discussing prophecy to have difficulty staying on topic. This is especially true of modern futurists and the dispensationalist eschatologies. The degree of copy and paste eisegesis that occurs among that group is grievously abounding. It's a tactic. Keeps them from having to stay with one aspect of scripture until a full understanding is attained. Keeps them from finding agreement with their siblings on occasions when agreement could be had..... such as Daniel's beasts being four in number and not five. Once again, If you can prove me wrong. Feel free. Otherwise, I will listen to scripture. I have. Daniel's beasts are four in number. That is demonstrably provable. You are not listening to scripture.
The number five is not mentioned anywhere in Daniel 2 or 7, or Revelation 13. This too is demonstrably provable. Scripture was not listened to.
Your own posts alternate between four and five and thereby contradict one another. The solution lies in sticking to what is stated in scripture. You are not listening to scripture.
The statue outside the UN looks nothing like the beast of Revelation 13. This is demonstrably provable simply by reading the text of Revelation. You are not listening to scripture.
I did prove you wrong.
You are not listening to scripture..... and now you're making it about you and me despite my constant effort to make this about scripture.
This op is about Daniel's four beasts. There are four beasts in Daniel. Revelation 13 has two beasts, not one. Let's just start there. Can you acknowledge there are only four beasts in Daniel and not five? Can you acknowledge there are two beasts in Revelation 13, and not one. Can you acknowledge the scriptures do not actually state Rome is the fourth beast? Can you acknowledge the additional kingdom in Daniel is one set up by God? Can you acknowledge the kingdom set up by God occurs during the time of Daniel's four kings?
These are the things the scripture actually states.
Let scripture persuade.Good day sir. back to the op |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2022 8:54:13 GMT -8
Good day sir. back to the op Sure. If by " Good day," you mean " I'm exiting," then I am disappointed. I read the entire books of Daniel and Revelation and Matthew 21:26 this morning after my morning response to you in preparation for further conversation and to make sure I had not erred. Let me know if you change your mind and when you're willing to examine Daniel's beasts for what Daniel and the rest of scripture actually says about those beasts (and not what PNW tells you to believe). |
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