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Post by deralte on Aug 12, 2022 11:08:03 GMT -8
3 decades ago +/- I was working for DOD in Korea. The Armed Forces Network [AFN] had been available on the Korean cable network but there was some kind of dispute so they dropped AFN. To fill in the gap I started "fighting the Philistines" in online forums, similar to this. I quickly realized that the same arguments and out-of-context proof texts are repeated over and over. I started saving my responses so I didn't have to reinvent the wheel in every post.
.....Some religious groups claim that "aionios" never means "eternal" but "age." So instead of "eternal punishment" in Matt 25:46 they claim it means "age during correction." "Aionios" is an adjective they have replaced it with a noun "age" and a preposition "during."
I reviewed every occurrence of "aionios" and found 26 vss. which define/describe "aionios."
Many have claimed my posts are too long so here are 3 verses from my finding, 26 verses which define/describe "aionios." as "eternal' everlasting etc.
[indent]EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[/indent]
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted below, know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
archive.org/details/new-testament-the-eastern-greek-orthodox-bible…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.
[Indent]EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[/indent]
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some misinformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars are competent enough to know the correct meanings of old words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer used and translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of archaic words which occur in the KJV and translate them correctly.
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Post by civic on Aug 13, 2022 5:39:20 GMT -8
Thanks deralte for the definition and as you know I'm in agreement with you on the meaning of eternal. Good job !!! |
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Post by civic on Aug 13, 2022 8:35:34 GMT -8
Excellent work. Matt 25:46
Mat 25:46 καιG2532 CONJ απελευσονταιG565 V-FDI-3P ουτοιG3778 D-NPM ειςG1519 PREP κολασινG2851 N-ASF αιωνιονG166 A-ASF οιG3588 T-NPM δεG1161 CONJ δικαιοιG1342 A-NPM ειςG1519 PREP ζωηνG2222 N-ASF αιωνιονG166 A-ASF
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into Onesh Olam (Eternal Punishment), but the tzaddikim into Chayyei Olam (Eternal Life). YESHAYAYAH 66:24; DANIEL 12:2]
OJB
What does the word eternal (aionios) mean as it is used in Scripture, NOT as it is used by secular writers, including ancient Greek writers? Thankfully, God's Spirit has used the word aionios numerous times so one may glean an excellent sense of what this word means in the Bible. Can you find Greek "authorities" who say aionios does not mean eternal? Absolutely, but every man that claims to be an "authority" on this word is also a sinner and his words are not inspired by God, and thus are fallible and subject to error (they are not inerrant)!
Only God's Word is inspired by the Spirit of God (Who is the Spirit of Truth). Only God's Word is infallible. Only God's Word is inerrant. Therefore whatever God says on ANY subject is absolute truth, and takes absolute precedence over how the same word was used in the writings of fallen men. That said, here is what the GOD OF TRUTH SAYS about the crucial word ETERNAL (aionios) (And these are only a few examples to make the point).
Matthew 25:41 (WORDS OF JESUS) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionios) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
COMMENT - Jesus clearly states those on His left are to depart into the "ETERNAL FIRE." So Jesus believes in an ETERNAL FIRE. Is that a fair statement based on His own declaration? Secondly, Jesus states this ETERNAL FIRE is a place which has been prepared for the DEVIL. So that begs a question -- If ETERNAL FIRE is not real, then will the devil be let out of that place at some point in the future? Clearly there is no Scripture that supports that premise. In fact John records the devil's fate in Revelation 20:10+ "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." How long will the devil be tormented according to John? These passages strongly support the premise that eternal fire will last forever, throughout eternity.
Matthew 25:46 (WORDS OF JESUS) “These will go away into eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionios) life.”
COMMENT - What is Jesus contrasting? Eternal punishment and eternal life. Correct? According to Jesus how long is life? Eternal. According to Jesus how long is punishment? Eternal. One can parse Jesus' words or attempt specious, clever word games, but His words are very simple and straightforward and clearly indicate that there are two states of every man ever born, either eternal punishment or eternal life. There is no middle ground. And if one argues that aionios does not mean "eternal" than they are painting themselves into a theological corner, because if eternal punishment is not forever, then eternal life is not forever and we are all in a hopeless situation!
I concur with you on this topic.
Johann.
Good job !  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2022 9:22:03 GMT -8
3 decades ago +/- I was working for DOD in Korea. The Armed Forces Network [AFN] had been available on the Korean cable network but there was some kind of dispute so they dropped AFN. To fill in the gap I started "fighting the Philistines" in online forums, similar to this. I quickly realized that the same arguments and out-of-context proof texts are repeated over and over. I started saving my responses so I didn't have to reinvent the wheel in every post.
.....Some religious groups claim that "aionios" never means "eternal" but "age." So instead of "eternal punishment" in Matt 25:46 they claim it means "age during correction." "Aionios" is an adjective they have replaced it with a noun "age" and a preposition "during."
I reviewed every occurrence of "aionios" and found 26 vss. which define/describe "aionios."
Many have claimed my posts are too long so here are 3 verses from my finding, 26 verses which define/describe "aionios." as "eternal' everlasting etc.
[indent]EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[/indent]
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted below, know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
archive.org/details/new-testament-the-eastern-greek-orthodox-bible…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.
[Indent]EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[/indent]
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some misinformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars are competent enough to know the correct meanings of old words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer used and translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of archaic words which occur in the KJV and translate them correctly.
I believe more than a few things in this op need to be clarified and one or two corrected. First and foremost is the fact Matthew 25:46 does not use the word " aionios"! It uses the word " aionion," not aionios. Conjugation matters! Treating all conjugations of aion and/or aionios identically is a serious linguistic and exegetical error, that as we can see from the op (and those to who it originally sought to refute) has profound consequences. Furthermore, what a word might mean in secular usage (pagan Greek application outside of scripture) might be very different from its use within the Bible or Christian eschatological paradigm. Issues of conflation, ambiguity, de-contextualization, and neglected middles, etc. are to be avoided. There are many other concerns but those are the chief ones that should be addressed. Another would be the use of the term eternal because saying a punishment is eternal is not the same as saying the subject of that punishment suffers eternally. The term "eternal" in Hebrew, Greek, AND English can carry with it the connotation of finality, just as easily as it can carry the connotation of having no finality (or being unending). The concept of eternity stretches in both directions - it has no beginning AND no end. God is eternal. Nothing in creation is eternal like God is eternal. This is important for understanding God's use of that term INSIDE creation because creation had a beginning, it is not eternal. If we take Jesus' words at face value (literally) then heaven and earth will pass away therefore, at a bare minimum, the heaven and earth parts of Genesis 1:1 will end. They are not eternal. So when we speak about resurrection and "going to heaven" we know the idea of "eternal" occurs within the context of the beginning in which the heavens and the earth were created and Jesus' statement heaven and earth will pass away. Maybe he meant that figuratively (a topic for another thread, perhaps), but if taken literally then eternity is not eternal for created creatures. Remember also the punishment itself has a beginning. It has not always existed. It is contextually eternal, not literally eternal. BUT...... I agree with you deralte, Matthew 25:26 should not be read to say Jesus is speaking about a finite period of correction. He is speaking about consequences that will have a beginning and unending effect. This matter of aionios as used in Matthew 25:46 NOT take that verse out of its inherently existing contexts of the immediately surrounding text or those of the larger contexts. I will, therefore, will suggest, recommend, and request anyone wanting to consider that word in that verse read the entire narrative of Matthew's chapter 25 verse 46 report. Matthew is reporting on the events of a single day. That day is the day immediately following Jesus' entrance into Jerusalem before his crucifixion. Within a few days he'll be dead. Matthew's narrative begins with what we now call Matthew 21:18 and it continues all the way through chapters 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, and ends with verse 5 of the 26th chapter and the declaration the Jewish leaders were going to kill Jesus. Contextually speaking, eternal punishment isn't meted out solely for the purpose of addressing sin in general. One of THE specific sins specified in this narrative is the killing of Jesus (and the prophets). Read it and see for yourself. Matthew 21:18-19
Now in the morning, when He was returning to the city, He became hungry. Seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He *said to it, "No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you." And at once the fig tree withered.
Matthew 23:29-36
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Matthew 25:31-46
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. ~'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? ~'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? ~'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matthew 26:1-5 When Jesus had finished all these words, He said to His disciples, "You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man is to be handed over for crucifixion." Then the chief priests and the elders of the people were gathered together in the court of the high priest, named Caiaphas; and they plotted together to seize Jesus by stealth and kill Him. But they were saying, "Not during the festival, otherwise a riot might occur among the people."
All four of those quotes come from the exact same single narrative. Two last points: 1) the word aionion transliterally means " ages of ages". That's all. 2) the conjugation aionion is used 45 times in the NT, not 26. Even the Greek-speaking Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible scholars agree. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 14, 2022 4:49:18 GMT -8
3 decades ago +/- I was working for DOD in Korea. The Armed Forces Network [AFN] had been available on the Korean cable network but there was some kind of dispute so they dropped AFN. To fill in the gap I started "fighting the Philistines" in online forums, similar to this. I quickly realized that the same arguments and out-of-context proof texts are repeated over and over. I started saving my responses so I didn't have to reinvent the wheel in every post.
.....Some religious groups claim that "aionios" never means "eternal" but "age." So instead of "eternal punishment" in Matt 25:46 they claim it means "age during correction." "Aionios" is an adjective they have replaced it with a noun "age" and a preposition "during."
I reviewed every occurrence of "aionios" and found 26 vss. which define/describe "aionios."
Many have claimed my posts are too long so here are 3 verses from my finding, 26 verses which define/describe "aionios." as "eternal' everlasting etc.
[indent]EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[/indent]
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted below, know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
archive.org/details/new-testament-the-eastern-greek-orthodox-bible…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.
[Indent]EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[/indent]
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some misinformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars are competent enough to know the correct meanings of old words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer used and translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of archaic words which occur in the KJV and translate them correctly.
2 Cor 4:18 "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal (aionios). Paul is CONTRASTING between what is TEMPORAL to what id ETERNAL and not equating something that is time limiting (temporary) to something that is temporary. The same is true with Philemon 1:15..."For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;" With a temporary earthly relationship (master - slave) contrasted to what is an unending relationship (eternal heavenly fellowship). The verses make no sense comparing temporal to the temporal but are contrasting temporal to the unending. |
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Post by deralte on Aug 15, 2022 17:58:24 GMT -8
3 decades ago +/- I was working for DOD in Korea. The Armed Forces Network [AFN] had been available on the Korean cable network but there was some kind of dispute so they dropped AFN. To fill in the gap I started "fighting the Philistines" in online forums, similar to this. I quickly realized that the same arguments and out-of-context proof texts are repeated over and over. I started saving my responses so I didn't have to reinvent the wheel in every post.
.....Some religious groups claim that "aionios" never means "eternal" but "age." So instead of "eternal punishment" in Matt 25:46 they claim it means "age during correction." "Aionios" is an adjective they have replaced it with a noun "age" and a preposition "during."
I reviewed every occurrence of "aionios" and found 26 vss. which define/describe "aionios."
Many have claimed my posts are too long so here are 3 verses from my finding, 26 verses which define/describe "aionios." as "eternal' everlasting etc.
[indent]EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[/indent]
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted below, know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
archive.org/details/new-testament-the-eastern-greek-orthodox-bible…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.
[Indent]EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[/indent]
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some misinformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars are competent enough to know the correct meanings of old words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer used and translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of archaic words which occur in the KJV and translate them correctly.
2 Cor 4:18 "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal (aionios). Paul is CONTRASTING between what is TEMPORAL to what id ETERNAL and not equating something that is time limiting (temporary) to something that is temporary. The same is true with Philemon 1:15..."For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;" With a temporary earthly relationship (master - slave) contrasted to what is an unending relationship (eternal heavenly fellowship). The verses make no sense comparing temporal to the temporal but are contrasting temporal to the unending. |
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Post by deralte on Aug 15, 2022 18:11:39 GMT -8
.......First and foremost is the fact Matthew 25:46 does not use the word "aionios"! It uses the word "aionion," not aionios. Conjugation matters! Treating .......all conjugations of aion and/or aionios identically is a serious linguistic and exegetical error, that as we can see from the op (and those to who it .......originally sought to refute) has profound consequences. Furthermore, what a word might mean in secular usage (pagan Greek application outside of .......scripture) might be very different from its use within the Bible or Christian eschatological paradigm. Issues of conflation, ambiguity, .......contextualization, and neglected middles, etc. are to be avoided.
Sorry none of your speculation actually refutes anything I posted there are eight different inflections, NOT "conjugations," of "aionios," see below, and according to the BDAG Greek lexicon they ALL mean eternal. Just as it was defined in my post multiple times. When Jesus said "that they should not perish but have aionios life" That is enough definition for me. "aionios" by whichever inflection, means "eternal." Nothing you said changes that!
αιωνιον ASF accusative singular feminine
αιωνιου GSF genitive singular feminine
αιωνιους APF accusative singular feminine
αιωνιος NSF nominative singular feminine
αιωνιοις DPM dative plural masculine
αιωνια NPN nominative plural neuter
αιωνιαν ASF accusative singular feminine
αιωνιων GPM genitive plural masculine
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Post by evensteven on Aug 16, 2022 3:24:08 GMT -8
I believe more than a few things in this op need to be clarified and one or two corrected. First and foremost is the fact Matthew 25:46 does not use the word " aionios"! It uses the word " aionion," not aionios. Conjugation matters! Treating all conjugations of aion and/or aionios identically is a serious linguistic and exegetical error, that as we can see from the op (and those to who it originally sought to refute) has profound consequences. Furthermore, what a word might mean in secular usage (pagan Greek application outside of scripture) might be very different from its use within the Bible or Christian eschatological paradigm. Issues of conflation, ambiguity, de-contextualization, and neglected middles, etc. are to be avoided. There are many other concerns but those are the chief ones that should be addressed. Another would be the use of the term eternal because saying a punishment is eternal is not the same as saying the subject of that punishment suffers eternally. The term "eternal" in Hebrew, Greek, AND English can carry with it the connotation of finality, just as easily as it can carry the connotation of having no finality (or being unending). The concept of eternity stretches in both directions - it has no beginning AND no end. God is eternal. Nothing in creation is eternal like God is eternal. This is important for understanding God's use of that term INSIDE creation because creation had a beginning, it is not eternal. If we take Jesus' words at face value (literally) then heaven and earth will pass away therefore, at a bare minimum, the heaven and earth parts of Genesis 1:1 will end. They are not eternal. So when we speak about resurrection and "going to heaven" we know the idea of "eternal" occurs within the context of the beginning in which the heavens and the earth were created and Jesus' statement heaven and earth will pass away. Maybe he meant that figuratively (a topic for another thread, perhaps), but if taken literally then eternity is not eternal for created creatures. Remember also the punishment itself has a beginning. It has not always existed. It is contextually eternal, not literally eternal. BUT...... I agree with you deralte , Matthew 25:26 should not be read to say Jesus is speaking about a finite period of correction. He is speaking about consequences that will have a beginning and unending effect. This matter of aionios as used in Matthew 25:46 NOT take that verse out of its inherently existing contexts of the immediately surrounding text or those of the larger contexts. I will, therefore, will suggest, recommend, and request anyone wanting to consider that word in that verse read the entire narrative of Matthew's chapter 25 verse 46 report. Matthew is reporting on the events of a single day. That day is the day immediately following Jesus' entrance into Jerusalem before his crucifixion. Within a few days he'll be dead. Matthew's narrative begins with what we now call Matthew 21:18 and it continues all the way through chapters 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, and ends with verse 5 of the 26th chapter and the declaration the Jewish leaders were going to kill Jesus. Contextually speaking, eternal punishment isn't meted out solely for the purpose of addressing sin in general. One of THE specific sins specified in this narrative is the killing of Jesus (and the prophets). Read it and see for yourself. Matthew 21:18-19
Now in the morning, when He was returning to the city, He became hungry. Seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He *said to it, "No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you." And at once the fig tree withered.
Matthew 23:29-36
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Matthew 25:31-46
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. ~'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? ~'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? ~'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matthew 26:1-5 When Jesus had finished all these words, He said to His disciples, "You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man is to be handed over for crucifixion." Then the chief priests and the elders of the people were gathered together in the court of the high priest, named Caiaphas; and they plotted together to seize Jesus by stealth and kill Him. But they were saying, "Not during the festival, otherwise a riot might occur among the people."
All four of those quotes come from the exact same single narrative. Two last points: 1) the word aionion transliterally means " ages of ages". That's all. 2) the conjugation aionion is used 45 times in the NT, not 26. Even the Greek-speaking Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible scholars agree. |
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Post by evensteven on Aug 16, 2022 3:37:40 GMT -8
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Post by evensteven on Aug 16, 2022 3:39:45 GMT -8
Thanks for your post, Josheb.
I especially like what you are saying about aionion being translate as "ages of ages".
There are many references to "this age", "the next age", "the age to come", "age to age", and so on.
None of these could be translated "eternal", unless someone wants to explain what "eternal to eternal means.
Or this eternal, or the next eternal, or this eternal", or "the eternal to come".
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Post by gomer on Aug 16, 2022 5:00:24 GMT -8
3 decades ago +/- I was working for DOD in Korea. The Armed Forces Network [AFN] had been available on the Korean cable network but there was some kind of dispute so they dropped AFN. To fill in the gap I started "fighting the Philistines" in online forums, similar to this. I quickly realized that the same arguments and out-of-context proof texts are repeated over and over. I started saving my responses so I didn't have to reinvent the wheel in every post.
.....Some religious groups claim that "aionios" never means "eternal" but "age." So instead of "eternal punishment" in Matt 25:46 they claim it means "age during correction." "Aionios" is an adjective they have replaced it with a noun "age" and a preposition "during."
I reviewed every occurrence of "aionios" and found 26 vss. which define/describe "aionios."
Many have claimed my posts are too long so here are 3 verses from my finding, 26 verses which define/describe "aionios." as "eternal' everlasting etc.
[indent]EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[/indent]
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted below, know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
archive.org/details/new-testament-the-eastern-greek-orthodox-bible…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.
[Indent]EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[/indent]
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some misinformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars are competent enough to know the correct meanings of old words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer used and translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of archaic words which occur in the KJV and translate them correctly.
2 Cor 4:18 "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal (aionios). Paul is CONTRASTING between what is TEMPORAL to what id ETERNAL and not equating something that is time limiting (temporary) to something that is temporary. The same is true with Philemon 1:15..."For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;" With a temporary earthly relationship (master - slave) contrasted to what is an unending relationship (eternal heavenly fellowship). The verses make no sense comparing temporal to the temporal but are contrasting temporal to the unending. Jn 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." The present tense of abideth shows God's wrath is ongoing, sustained.....God is eternal/unending therefore God's wrath upon the unbeliever lasts as long as God lasts...eternal/unending. Therefore God is unending, God's wrath is unending, the object of God's wrath, the unbeliever, is unending. The fact the unbeliever "shall not see life" (indicative) proves there is no universalism of all men being saved nor annihilation of men. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2022 5:29:08 GMT -8
Thanks for your post, Josheb. I especially like what you are saying about aionion being translate as "ages of ages". There are many references to "this age", "the next age", "the age to come", "age to age", and so on. None of these could be translated "eternal", unless someone wants to explain what "eternal to eternal means. Or this eternal, or the next eternal, or this eternal", or "the eternal to come". Yep. However, I will again point out that conjugation matters, and there is a significant difference between aion and aionion. It is my observation, and the subject of age and ages is usually lively debate, that these passages are not taken as written. For example, Paul makes it quite clear the end of the ages (plural) was coming upon the believers in the first century. 1 Corinthians 10:6-13
Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play." Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore, let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. That would certainly not be eternity. In Matthew 25:46 the word used is aionion, and here in 1 Corinthians 10:11 the term is aionon. There can be no doubt Paul is writing about an imminent event because the Greek word use as " have come" is katenteken, whose root is katantao, which transliterally means " come up against it face to face" ( kata = to come opposite, antao = face to face meeting). I think people make the mistake of thinking there are only to ages, this age and the age to come, when in fact there may be many ages between the first century and the last century  . We the first century Christians were living in the last days, but they were not experiencing the last day. This op was written in dissent of the position Matthew 25:46's aionion was a specific time allotment that has a beginning and an end, a " period of correction." I do not know the source from which that position was taken but I wonder if it was a universalist or full-preterist position. I recommend comparing the Matthew 26 passage with something Paul wrote in Galatians 6 where the word aionion is used. Galatians 6:6-10
The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith. Here the life in question is juxtaposed against " corruption" or rot or decay. I think most of us would agree decay is not an instant occurrence; it takes time for a thing to rot and decay. Some translations use the word "destroy" but this is not an instant destruction involving the immediate cessation of existence, the slow erosion of rotting. The Bible uses both terms, but on this occasion it is corruption, not annihilation. The dichotomy is plain and simple: decay of life. Both last ages of ages. The problem with the original Korean source, and this is why I agree with deralte, is because if the punishment is of a finite period, then so too is the life to which the Matthew 25 punishment is being contrasted. The entire event occurs on the other side of the gave! The people about whom Jesus is speaking are standing before The King and they are asking about events in their life that has already passed, " When did we see you hungry.....?" Notice that it isn't just the punishment and the life that is also the fire by which the punishment is meted out. All three last ages of ages. If the punishment (or corruption) is only temporary, then so too is the life. The Korea source cannot say the punishment is temporary and the life is not. That interpretation would be internally inconsistent. Anyone up for believing in Jesus and having a temporary life, not an eternal one? . |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2022 13:11:58 GMT -8
Life eternal is in Christ, a present reality. J. Yep. What made you think that was germane? |
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Post by deralte on Aug 16, 2022 15:38:29 GMT -8
Yep. However, I will again point out that conjugation matters, and there is a significant difference between aion and aionion. It is my observation, and the subject of age and ages is usually lively debate, that these passages are not taken as written. For example, Paul makes it quite clear the end of the ages (plural) was coming upon the believers in the first century. 1 Corinthians 10:6-13
Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play." Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore, let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. That would certainly not be eternity. In Matthew 25:46 the word used is aionion, and here in 1 Corinthians 10:11 the term is aionon. There can be no doubt Paul is writing about an imminent event because the Greek word use as " have come" is katenteken, whose root is katantao, which transliterally means " come up against it face to face" ( kata = to come opposite, antao = face to face meeting). I think people make the mistake of thinking there are only to ages, this age and the age to come, when in fact there may be many ages between the first century and the last century . We the first century Christians were living in the last days, but they were not experiencing the last day. This op was written in dissent of the position Matthew 25:46's aionion was a specific time allotment that has a beginning and an end, a " period of correction." I do not know the source from which that position was taken but I wonder if it was a universalist or full-preterist position. I recommend comparing the Matthew 26 passage with something Paul wrote in Galatians 6 where the word aionion is used. Galatians 6:6-10
The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith. Here the life in question is juxtaposed against " corruption" or rot or decay. I think most of us would agree decay is not an instant occurrence; it takes time for a thing to rot and decay. Some translations use the word "destroy" but this is not an instant destruction involving the immediate cessation of existence, the slow erosion of rotting. The Bible uses both terms, but on this occasion it is corruption, not annihilation. The dichotomy is plain and simple: decay of life. Both last ages of ages. The problem with the original Korean source, and this is why I agree with deralte, is because if the punishment is of a finite period, then so too is the life to which the Matthew 25 punishment is being contrasted. The entire event occurs on the other side of the gave! The people about whom Jesus is speaking are standing before The King and they are asking about events in their life that has already passed, " When did we see you hungry.....?" Notice that it isn't just the punishment and the life that is also the fire by which the punishment is meted out. All three last ages of ages. If the punishment (or corruption) is only temporary, then so too is the life. The Korea source cannot say the punishment is temporary and the life is not. That interpretation would be internally inconsistent. Anyone up for believing in Jesus and having a temporary life, not an eternal one? Life eternal is in Christ, a present reality. J.
........[4]John 3:15
........(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
........[5] John 3:16
.......(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
.......everlasting [aionion] life.
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice! Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” means "erternal life."
I happen to believe that Jesus knew what He was talking about and is telling the truth.
"Aionios" may figuratively refer to something that is not "eternal" but I am not aware of any verse which defines/describes "aionios" as anything other than eternal.
The different inflections of "aionios,"
αιωνιον ASF accusative singular feminine, eternal
αιωνιου GSF genitive singular feminine, eternal
αιωνιους APF accusative singular feminine, eternal
αιωνιος NSF nominative singular feminine, eternal
αιωνιοις DPM dative plural masculine, eternal
αιωνια NPN nominative plural neuter, eternal
αιωνιαν ASF accusative singular feminine, eternal
αιωνιων GPM genitive plural masculine, eternal |
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Post by deralte on Aug 16, 2022 16:18:53 GMT -8
To Johann
Kinda new here not familiar with how things work . I was trying to reply to Josheb.
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. We the first century Christians were living in the last days, but they were not experiencing the last day. This op was written in dissent of the position Matthew 25:46's aionion was a specific time allotment that has a beginning and an end, a "period of correction." I do not know the source from which that position was taken but I wonder if it was a universalist or full-preterist position. I recommend comparing the Matthew 26 passage with something Paul wrote in Galatians 6 where the word aionion is used.