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Post by TibiasDad on Apr 20, 2023 5:17:13 GMT -8
I think that one of the most basic concepts in scripture, a relational connection with God, is woefully disregarded in our approach to soteriology, especially in terms of the Calvinism v. Arminianism context.
Being dead, in the spiritual sense, is the concept of being separated from God in terms of his capacity to be in fellowship with us due to our sin. (Eph 2:12, 2 Thess 1:9) We are estranged from him due to our rebellion against Holiness and desires for our lives. (Psalm 58:3, Ezk 14:5, Gal 5:4)
The overwhelming use of familial terminology, Father, Son(s), children, brothers (and sisters), husband/wife, etc, demonstrates that the divine perspective of the God/Mankind situation is one of relationship. This is why Paul speaks of the restoration event as reconciliation. (Rom 5:10, Col 1:20-22, 2 Cor 5:18-20, Eph 2:16)
It seems to me, that the problematic issues of soteriology are largely eliminated if we interpret the terminology of being dead and incapable from a relational standpoint rather than objective/literal perspective.
Yes, our sin is a real and dynamic reality. But, as Paul says, "if God is for us, who can be against us?" It is being connected with God, objectively and relationally, that makes us his children. We are all created in his image, and are all meant to be in intimate fellowship with with him. This is why he has "given us the ministry of reconciliation", and why we cry " be reconciled to God"! Why then do we miss this in our hermeneutical approach to soteriology?
Doug
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Post by civic on Apr 20, 2023 6:19:34 GMT -8
Excellent points brother . God as Triune and relational within His own nature/ Being has created man to be in relationship with Him and to not be alone and gave man a help mate just for him to share life relationally with to reflect His very own character/ nature as a God who is love at His very core.
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Post by TibiasDad on Apr 20, 2023 8:39:15 GMT -8
Excellent points brother . God as Triune and relational within His own nature/ Being has created man to be in relationship with Him and to not be alone and gave man a help mate just for him to share life relationally with to reflect His very own character/ nature as a God who is love at His very core. Thank you, my brother, it's good to be back from the 'lion's den' for awhile; Tom and I have been the primary objectors and a lot of the argumentations have been specifically aimed at Tom as a Provisionist. It's become the Calvinism v Provisionist forum of late. Tom is steady and persistent as ever, and while I don't agree with every aspect of provisionism, his reasoning is sound concerning Reformed soteriology. To the point of my post, marriage is the quintessential image of our relationship with God. The love of God is expressed relationally in Christ's coming into the world. It is not about reviving an inanimate thing to life, but rather restoring relationship, fellowship, intimacy with God. Being able to 'walk in the cool of the day' with him without hiding our nakedness. The old Jewish custom of declaring that someone is dead to that person doesn't mean they are functionally dead, but that the functionality has turned away from a relational interaction. To turn from God doesn't mean that we forget all that we knew about him any more than one who is divorced can forget who their former spouse was. We certainly can, by our own actions, suppress these things to the point of them becoming irrelevant to our life choices, but the truth is still there and can be brought up from the rubble of our lives by the Holy Spirit who draws us toward Christ to bring reconciliation full circle. Doug |
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Post by civic on Apr 20, 2023 9:17:29 GMT -8
Excellent points brother . God as Triune and relational within His own nature/ Being has created man to be in relationship with Him and to not be alone and gave man a help mate just for him to share life relationally with to reflect His very own character/ nature as a God who is love at His very core. Thank you, my brother, it's good to be back from the 'lion's den' for awhile; Tom and I have been the primary objectors and a lot of the argumentations have been specifically aimed at Tom as a Provisionist. It's become the Calvinism v Provisionist forum of late. Tom is steady and persistent as ever, and while I don't agree with every aspect of provisionism, his reasoning is sound concerning Reformed soteriology. To the point of my post, marriage is the quintessential image of our relationship with God. The love of God is expressed relationally in Christ's coming into the world. It is not about reviving an inanimate thing to life, but rather restoring relationship, fellowship, intimacy with God. Being able to 'walk in the cool of the day' with him without hiding our nakedness. The old Jewish custom of declaring that someone is dead to that person doesn't mean they are functionally dead, but that the functionality has turned away from a relational interaction. To turn from God doesn't mean that we forget all that we knew about him any more than one who is divorced can forget who their former spouse was. We certainly can, by our own actions, suppress these things to the point of them becoming irrelevant to our life choices, but the truth is still there and can be brought up from the rubble of our lives by the Holy Spirit who draws us toward Christ to bring reconciliation full circle. Doug Once again I concur with you brother . I’m a little Arminian mixed with some provisionism. I’m still working through that soteriology. Leaving Calvinism has freed me to be open in my search for truth. But what I have learned through all of this in my journey is that good theology begins with Gods character and nature as Father, Son and Holy Spirit . It’s a relationship with its foundation which is love. And from there we can see how that relates to man. And to know what God is like we need look no further than into the Person and work of Christ as revealed in the gospels and epistles. He is the full revelation of God in the flesh. That’s been my focus this past few years in my studies. |
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To the LORD be all glory
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Post by To the LORD be all glory on Apr 20, 2023 9:35:52 GMT -8
Be encouraged my friends . Let us also remember the same paul said WHO we serve is whose we are . whether of sin unto death
or of obediance unto righteousness .
The same paul continously and relentlessy also pointed to BELIEVE YE IN JESUS CHRIST .
He often warned those who also believed GOD wont be mocked . What we sow to is what we shall reap . IF we sow to the flesh we shall of the flesh reap corruption , death
but if we sow to the SPIRIT , LIFE EVERLASTING .
Now let all that has breath both praise and thank the glorious LORD . DO so always and continually . And be on gaurd for the adversary , the devil , has many who do his bidding now .
And through means of a false love , a false unity is bringing many captive to a lie . JESUS , THE truth that one has to BELIEVE IN HIM , is being omitted
and a lie of a love that wont save has replaced it . Lambs dont buy lies . WE buy the TRUTH , we sell it not .
KEEP the MINDSET firm to the end about having to BELIEVE in CHRIST , FAITH IN HIM . NOw hit those trenches my friends . THE LORD is with the lambs and we have all HOPE for our HOPE is in HE ALONE .
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Post by civic on Apr 20, 2023 10:15:26 GMT -8
Be encouraged my friends . Let us also remember the same paul said WHO we serve is whose we are . whether of sin unto death or of obediance unto righteousness . The same paul continously and relentlessy also pointed to BELIEVE YE IN JESUS CHRIST . He often warned those who also believed GOD wont be mocked . What we sow to is what we shall reap . IF we sow to the flesh we shall of the flesh reap corruption , death but if we sow to the SPIRIT , LIFE EVERLASTING . Now let all that has breath both praise and thank the glorious LORD . DO so always and continually . And be on gaurd for the adversary , the devil , has many who do his bidding now . And through means of a false love , a false unity is bringing many captive to a lie . JESUS , THE truth that one has to BELIEVE IN HIM , is being omitted and a lie of a love that wont save has replaced it . Lambs dont buy lies . WE buy the TRUTH , we sell it not . KEEP the MINDSET firm to the end about having to BELIEVE in CHRIST , FAITH IN HIM . NOw hit those trenches my friends . THE LORD is with the lambs and we have all HOPE for our HOPE is in HE ALONE . Hi this is Christophany  |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Apr 21, 2023 7:35:52 GMT -8
I believe it is a faulty proposition being made by both sides of this discussion.
Even after Adam "died"...... Adam still had a relationship with God. Even before Adam ever faced God with his actions... God came to Adam.
Which is exactly the same thing Christ did in the Incarnation. He did MORE than just stand back demand that man come to Him. He CAME to us. I reject the idea that God did such for just a few.
Relegating this to only a "spiritual" discussion of the impact of sin is a faulty proposition.
The very life that any person lives comes from the original breath of God given to Adam and Eve. That life isn't devoid of any and all spiritual contexts. Conscience comes from that life originating from the "breath of God".
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Post by TibiasDad on Apr 21, 2023 9:58:35 GMT -8
I believe it is a faulty proposition being made by both sides of this discussion. Even after Adam "died"...... Adam still had a relationship with God. Even before Adam ever faced God with his actions... God came to Adam. Which is exactly the same thing Christ did in the Incarnation. He did MORE than just stand back demand that man come to Him. He CAME to us. I reject the idea that God did such for just a few. Relegating this to only a "spiritual" discussion of the impact of sin is a faulty proposition. The very life that any person lives comes from the original breath of God given to Adam and Eve. That life isn't devoid of any and all spiritual contexts. Conscience comes from that life originating from the "breath of God". To say that God interacted with Adam, or more accurately Cain and Able, doesn’t mean there is a personal connection or relationship with them. I agree that God comes to us, as he must, for it is a gracious gesture and he is the one that must initiate reconciliation. I’m not sure what you are trying to say by “Relegating this to only a "spiritual" discussion of the impact of sin is a faulty proposition”, but I am not attempting to imply that sin’s impact is only spiritual. It is primarily a spiritual issue, but the effects of sin extend to physical reality as well. Doug |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Apr 21, 2023 11:58:16 GMT -8
I believe it is a faulty proposition being made by both sides of this discussion. Even after Adam "died"...... Adam still had a relationship with God. Even before Adam ever faced God with his actions... God came to Adam. Which is exactly the same thing Christ did in the Incarnation. He did MORE than just stand back demand that man come to Him. He CAME to us. I reject the idea that God did such for just a few. Relegating this to only a "spiritual" discussion of the impact of sin is a faulty proposition. The very life that any person lives comes from the original breath of God given to Adam and Eve. That life isn't devoid of any and all spiritual contexts. Conscience comes from that life originating from the "breath of God". To say that God interacted with Adam, or more accurately Cain and Able, doesn’t mean there is a personal connection or relationship with them. I agree that God comes to us, as he must, for it is a gracious gesture and he is the one that must initiate reconciliation. I’m not sure what you are trying to say by “Relegating this to only a "spiritual" discussion of the impact of sin is a faulty proposition”, but I am not attempting to imply that sin’s impact is only spiritual. It is primarily a spiritual issue, but the effects of sin extend to physical reality as well. Doug Both Adam, Abel and Cain personally knew their Creator. They had a direct relationship with God. God was personally gracious to Cain and spared his life. God was personally gracious to Adam and spared his life. Death was promised for sin but it was not executed immediately. The benefit of humanity from the initial "breath of God" must not be underestimated. Grace is found in allow man (God's longsuffering) the "space" and "measure" to learn the results of his own sin/actions. Sorry for the confusion. I was trying to make the point that both sides of this argument have a very rudimentary belief that does not adequately deal with the subject. Which is something we often do when we "join and argument" such as the historical argument between Arminians and Calvinists. I decided a long time ago to build my beliefs from their foundation. I've discovered that both sides have issues. Issues that even Provisionism doesn't adequately deal with. God has done MORE than just "provided a means". This entire construct/life we live leads us to God. The work of Christ being the foundation of all our views but it is not the end though nothing would exist without the foundation. There is an assumption that Man/Adam/Eve lost Eternal life in the Garden. I believe Man/Eve lost the RIGHT to Eternal life in the garden. Adam and Eve were not the goal of "God creating man in His own image". They were a "work in progress". Thank God for His LONGsuffering. Which leads us to repentance. |
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Post by TibiasDad on Apr 21, 2023 16:26:42 GMT -8
To say that God interacted with Adam, or more accurately Cain and Able, doesn’t mean there is a personal connection or relationship with them. I agree that God comes to us, as he must, for it is a gracious gesture and he is the one that must initiate reconciliation. I’m not sure what you are trying to say by “Relegating this to only a "spiritual" discussion of the impact of sin is a faulty proposition”, but I am not attempting to imply that sin’s impact is only spiritual. It is primarily a spiritual issue, but the effects of sin extend to physical reality as well. Doug Both Adam, Abel and Cain personally knew their Creator. They had a direct relationship with God. God was personally gracious to Cain and spared his life. God was personally gracious to Adam and spared his life. Death was promised for sin but it was not executed immediately. The benefit of humanity from the initial "breath of God" must not be underestimated. Grace is found in allow man (God's longsuffering) the "space" and "measure" to learn the results of his own sin/actions. Sorry for the confusion. I was trying to make the point that both sides of this argument have a very rudimentary belief that does not adequately deal with the subject. Which is something we often do when we "join and argument" such as the historical argument between Arminians and Calvinists. I decided a long time ago to build my beliefs from their foundation. I've discovered that both sides have issues. Issues that even Provisionism doesn't adequately deal with. God has done MORE than just "provided a means". This entire construct/life we live leads us to God. The work of Christ being the foundation of all our views but it is not the end though nothing would exist without the foundation. There is an assumption that Man/Adam/Eve lost Eternal life in the Garden. I believe Man/Eve lost the RIGHT to Eternal life in the garden. Adam and Eve were not the goal of "God creating man in His own image". They were a "work in progress". Thank God for His LONGsuffering. Which leads us to repentance. If Cain had an intimate relationship with God, he wouldn’t have killed his brother, but would have understood the Lord’s rejection of his offering and repented of his sin. I think my thesis is addressing a foundational aspect of soteriological theory. It is a perspective of what was lost and what needs to be redeemed. It is our connection to God, and thus, our relationship with him. Doug |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Apr 21, 2023 19:14:47 GMT -8
Both Adam, Abel and Cain personally knew their Creator. They had a direct relationship with God. God was personally gracious to Cain and spared his life. God was personally gracious to Adam and spared his life. Death was promised for sin but it was not executed immediately. The benefit of humanity from the initial "breath of God" must not be underestimated. Grace is found in allow man (God's longsuffering) the "space" and "measure" to learn the results of his own sin/actions. Sorry for the confusion. I was trying to make the point that both sides of this argument have a very rudimentary belief that does not adequately deal with the subject. Which is something we often do when we "join and argument" such as the historical argument between Arminians and Calvinists. I decided a long time ago to build my beliefs from their foundation. I've discovered that both sides have issues. Issues that even Provisionism doesn't adequately deal with. God has done MORE than just "provided a means". This entire construct/life we live leads us to God. The work of Christ being the foundation of all our views but it is not the end though nothing would exist without the foundation. There is an assumption that Man/Adam/Eve lost Eternal life in the Garden. I believe Man/Eve lost the RIGHT to Eternal life in the garden. Adam and Eve were not the goal of "God creating man in His own image". They were a "work in progress". Thank God for His LONGsuffering. Which leads us to repentance. If Cain had an intimate relationship with God, he wouldn’t have killed his brother, but would have understood the Lord’s rejection of his offering and repented of his sin. I think my thesis is addressing a foundational aspect of soteriological theory. It is a perspective of what was lost and what needs to be redeemed. It is our connection to God, and thus, our relationship with him. Doug Cain understood and rejected God's way. That is why he killed his brother. Though he may not have known exactly what his anger might bring. There is far too little effort from either side to establish the basics of their premise. The offspring of Adam are subjected to the judgement of death through Adam but how that judgement is executed is very important. I'll be totally honest in my assessment of the positions. Both sides present a scenario wherein God "made things up" as He experienced the events. Calvinism less so than Arminianism. It is rather obviously that God planned events that orchestrated the creation of the New Creature in Christ. Nothing less than what happened could have accomplished His goal. Nothing less. God took Satan in his own craftiness. The idea that Adam lost any and all spiritual aspects of life when He sinned just is not established by the Scriptures. The body, though carnal, has no life without the lingering traits imparted through the breath of God to Adam. I call these traits the "finger prints" of God left in humanity. These lingering gifts Graciously given to all men lead and guide lost men to discovery. Some good. More so bad. |
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Post by rockson on Apr 27, 2023 19:28:10 GMT -8
I believe it is a faulty proposition being made by both sides of this discussion. Even after Adam "died"...... Adam still had a relationship with God. Even before Adam ever faced God with his actions... God came to Adam. Which is exactly the same thing Christ did in the Incarnation. He did MORE than just stand back demand that man come to Him. He CAME to us. I reject the idea that God did such for just a few. Relegating this to only a "spiritual" discussion of the impact of sin is a faulty proposition. The very life that any person lives comes from the original breath of God given to Adam and Eve. That life isn't devoid of any and all spiritual contexts. Conscience comes from that life originating from the "breath of God". To say that God interacted with Adam, or more accurately Cain and Able, doesn’t mean there is a personal connection or relationship with them. I'd say it was close to a personal relationship with them as it could be with anyone in the OT. I guess we could talk about the term "personal connection". After the fall no one could say they were a member of the Body of Christ and none could say they were one spirit with the Lord. It wasn't until the new covenant that we saw that. |
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Post by praiseyeshua on Apr 30, 2023 14:09:25 GMT -8
To say that God interacted with Adam, or more accurately Cain and Able, doesn’t mean there is a personal connection or relationship with them. I'd say it was close to a personal relationship with them as it could be with anyone in the OT. I guess we could talk about the term "personal connection". After the fall no one could say they were a member of the Body of Christ and none could say they were one spirit with the Lord. It wasn't until the new covenant that we saw that. Dispensational mistakes..... When Paul talked of the Spirit of God and the circumcision not made with hands, He referenced Abraham. Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Through the ONLY Heir of Abraham, we are blessed WITH faithful Abraham. Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. |
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