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Post by civic on May 3, 2023 5:23:37 GMT -8
John Calvin confessed that the doctrine of Double Predestination was a horrible and dreadful decree in his Institutes of the Christian Religion. John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Why would anyone believe such a horrific and dreadful doctrine ?
Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam's fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? Here their tongues, otherwise so loquacious, must become mute. The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. (latin. "Decretum quidem horribile, fateor."; french. "Je confesse que ce decret nous doit epouvanter.") Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. If anyone inveighs against God's foreknowledge at this point, he stumbles rashly and heedlessly. What reason is there to accuse the Heavenly Judge because he was not ignorant of what was to happen? If there is any just or manifest complaint, it applies to predestination. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision. For as it pertains to his wisdom to foreknow everything that is to happen, so it pertains to his might to rule and control everything by his hand. And Augustine also skillfully disposes of this question, as of others: "We most wholesomely confess what we most correctly believe, that the God and Lord of all things, who created all things exceedingly good [cf. Gen 1:31], and foreknew that evil things would rise out of good, and also knew that it pertained to his most omnipotent goodness to bring good out of evil things to be . . . , so ordained the life of angels and men that in it he might first of all show what free will could do, and then what the blessing of his grace and the verdict of his justice could do. (Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace X. 27)"
Calvin regarded soteriological predestination as God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition: rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others. Therefore, as any man has been created to one or the other of these ends, we speak of him as predestined to life or to death. gospelcoilition
" God is said to set apart those whom he adopts into salvation; it will be highly absurd to say that others acquire by chance or by their own effort what election alone confers on a few. Therefore, whom God passes over, he condemns: and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children. " Institutes, III, 23, 1.
hope this helps !!!
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Post by civic on May 3, 2023 5:24:23 GMT -8
Calvin regarded soteriological predestination as God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition: rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others. Therefore, as any man has been created to one or the other of these ends, we speak of him as predestined to life or to death. gospelcoilition
" God is said to set apart those whom he adopts into salvation; it will be highly absurd to say that others acquire by chance or by their own effort what election alone confers on a few. Therefore, whom God passes over, he condemns: and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children. " Institutes, III, 23, 1.
hope this helps !!!
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Post by civic on May 3, 2023 5:26:40 GMT -8
Notice Augustine below "We most wholesomely confess what we most correctly believe, that the God and Lord of all things, who created all things exceedingly good [cf. Gen 1:31], and foreknew that evil things would rise out of good, and also knew that it pertained to his most omnipotent goodness to bring good out of evil things to be . . . , so ordained the life of angels and men that in it he might first of all show what free will could do, and then what the blessing of his grace and the verdict of his justice could do. (Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace X. 27)" So we can refer to real Calvinists as free will calvinists since the father of calvinism declares free will.  As they like to say all the time Free Willers. So its the old pot calling the kettle black lol. |
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Post by civic on May 3, 2023 5:29:39 GMT -8
Here is a quote from Gods faithful servant Wesley on May 14, 1765 Letter from John Wesley to John Newton:
“We think it our duty (to op)pose predestination with our whole strength. Not as an opinion, but as a dangerous mistake, which appears to be subversive of the very foundations of Christian experience and which has in fact given occasion to the most grievous offences.”https://digitalcollections.smu.edu/digital/collection/jwl/id/44/
Here is calvin below from the institutes on double predestination.
" By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death " Calvin, Institutes, 3.21.6
so man cannot be held responsible for the way God created him since it was determined before creation ones damnation.
No wonder Wesley opposed that horrific doctrine.
hope this helps !!!
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Post by civic on May 3, 2023 5:43:37 GMT -8
I have quoted calvin well over a dozen different times affirming the predestination of the wicked for destruction from all eternity. Its inescapable that he affirmed it and then also denied it. That is what calvin did and his present day followers so as well, they affirm a doctrine then when challenged deny it which is why its called the inconsistent calvinist. Calvin below: “We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.” Acts: Calvin, The Crossway Classic Commentaries, p.66 “First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121 “When he uses the term permission, he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of everything, because nothing happens without his order of permission.” The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 8 “For myself, I take another principle: Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God. This may seem paradoxical at first sight to some....” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169 “Indeed, the ungodly pride themselves on being competent to effect their wishes. But the facts show in the end that by them, unconsciously and unwillingly, what was divinely ordained is implemented.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.173, “Does God work in the hearts of men, directing their plans and moving their wills this way and that, so that they do nothing but what He has ordained?” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.174 Read calvin below: “But it is quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God page 176 “But the objection is not yet resolved, that if all things are done by the will of God, and men contrive nothing except by His will and ordination, then God is the author of all evils.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179 God is the AUTHOR ! Did you read that ? The Famous Calvinist John Piper who gets it from the WCF says the following about evil taken from desiring god website : "Ephesians 1:11 goes even further by declaring that God in Christ “works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Here the Greek word for “works” is energeø, which indicates that God not merely carries all of the universe’s objects and events to their appointed ends but that he actually brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Exodus 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Hebrews 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child: “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4, NASB). “When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other” (Ecclesiastes 7:14, NIV)." www.desiringgod.org/message...ds-gracious-hand-in-the-hurts-others-do-to-ushope this helps !!! |
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Post by civic on May 3, 2023 6:15:51 GMT -8
Reading these assaults on the character and nature of our God is the main reason I left Calvinism. For some reason Calvinists remain blind to this and willfully defend these horrible doctrines. I know as I once did the same thing defending these damnable doctrines against non calvinists and I would mock and ridicule them with ad hominems. I was just lurking on another forum and noticing how the non calvinists were being mistreated and mocked by all the calvinists. Some things never change, defend our doctrines at all costs even when it comes to mistreated believers who think differently and believe differently. I appreciate all of you letting me vent from time to time.  |
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Post by Theophilus on May 3, 2023 8:44:30 GMT -8
Reading these assaults on the character and nature of our God is the main reason I left Calvinism. For some reason Calvinists remain blind to this and willfully defend these horrible doctrines. I know as I once did the same thing defending these damnable doctrines against non calvinists and I would mock and ridicule them with ad hominems. I was just lurking on another forum and noticing how the non calvinists were being mistreated and mocked by all the calvinists. Some things never change, defend our doctrines at all costs even when it comes to mistreated believers who think differently and believe differently. I appreciate all of you letting me vent from time to time. I understand where you're coming from and how frustrating it can be. What I did was just leave Calvinism behind me. As you know it's always going to be the same old same old. I personally had enough of it. I enjoy discussing and learning about other topics. You should try that, I've heard that Christology Is a good one. |
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Post by civic on May 3, 2023 9:13:39 GMT -8
Reading these assaults on the character and nature of our God is the main reason I left Calvinism. For some reason Calvinists remain blind to this and willfully defend these horrible doctrines. I know as I once did the same thing defending these damnable doctrines against non calvinists and I would mock and ridicule them with ad hominems. I was just lurking on another forum and noticing how the non calvinists were being mistreated and mocked by all the calvinists. Some things never change, defend our doctrines at all costs even when it comes to mistreated believers who think differently and believe differently. I appreciate all of you letting me vent from time to time. I understand where you're coming from and how frustrating it can be. What I did was just leave Calvinism behind me. As you know it's always going to be the same old same old. I personally had enough of it. I enjoy discussing and learning about other topics. You should try that, I've heard that Christology Is a good one. Great advice let’s close this part of the forum 😂 lol. |
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Ozias
Full Member
Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you
Posts: 100
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Post by Ozias on May 3, 2023 9:43:12 GMT -8
“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?” (Rom. 9:22 NASB).
Some Calvinists insist this verse teaches unmistakably that God predestined some to damnation. Does it really do that? Is that the only way to understand what Paul said here? I think not.
The word translated “prepared” is from katartizō. In this text it means adjusted, equipped, ripe, ready for “destruction.” The passive participle form indicates a present state formed previously. No statement is made as to how this preparation was made. The word proorizō, “predestined,” is not used in Romans 9:22.
Robert P. Lightner, The Death Christ Died: A Biblical Case for Unlimited Atonement (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications, 1998), 158–159.
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e v e
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Post by e v e on May 24, 2023 19:59:56 GMT -8
I have quoted calvin well over a dozen different times affirming the predestination of the wicked for destruction from all eternity. Its inescapable that he affirmed it and then also denied it. That is what calvin did and his present day followers so as well, they affirm a doctrine then when challenged deny it which is why its called the inconsistent calvinist. Calvin below: “We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.” Acts: Calvin, The Crossway Classic Commentaries, p.66 “First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121 “When he uses the term permission, he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of everything, because nothing happens without his order of permission.” The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 8 “For myself, I take another principle: Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God. This may seem paradoxical at first sight to some....” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169 “Indeed, the ungodly pride themselves on being competent to effect their wishes. But the facts show in the end that by them, unconsciously and unwillingly, what was divinely ordained is implemented.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.173, “Does God work in the hearts of men, directing their plans and moving their wills this way and that, so that they do nothing but what He has ordained?” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.174 Read calvin below: “But it is quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God page 176 “But the objection is not yet resolved, that if all things are done by the will of God, and men contrive nothing except by His will and ordination, then God is the author of all evils.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179 God is the AUTHOR ! Did you read that ? The Famous Calvinist John Piper who gets it from the WCF says the following about evil taken from desiring god website : "Ephesians 1:11 goes even further by declaring that God in Christ “works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Here the Greek word for “works” is energeø, which indicates that God not merely carries all of the universe’s objects and events to their appointed ends but that he actually brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Exodus 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Hebrews 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child: “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4, NASB). “When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other” (Ecclesiastes 7:14, NIV)." www.desiringgod.org/message...ds-gracious-hand-in-the-hurts-others-do-to-ushope this helps !!! It makes no sense that God does everything... His sons in paradise will rule with Christ! God needs brave and loyal sons. There is a very materialistic version of predestination, called occasionalism, which was presented by Leibniz, (who was another wolf in sheep's clothing). |
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e v e
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Post by e v e on May 24, 2023 20:04:15 GMT -8
Notice Augustine below "We most wholesomely confess what we most correctly believe, that the God and Lord of all things, who created all things exceedingly good [cf. Gen 1:31], and foreknew that evil things would rise out of good, and also knew that it pertained to his most omnipotent goodness to bring good out of evil things to be . . . , so ordained the life of angels and men that in it he might first of all show what free will could do, and then what the blessing of his grace and the verdict of his justice could do. (Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace X. 27)" So we can refer to real Calvinists as free will calvinists since the father of calvinism declares free will. As they like to say all the time Free Willers. So it's the old pot calling the kettle black lol. Weirdly Augustine took it all back later on and wasn't into free will after all... like moderns he wanted to maintain both ends.. But what runs through and through all his work is that he was a platonist. |
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Post by civic on May 25, 2023 5:47:56 GMT -8
Notice Augustine below "We most wholesomely confess what we most correctly believe, that the God and Lord of all things, who created all things exceedingly good [cf. Gen 1:31], and foreknew that evil things would rise out of good, and also knew that it pertained to his most omnipotent goodness to bring good out of evil things to be . . . , so ordained the life of angels and men that in it he might first of all show what free will could do, and then what the blessing of his grace and the verdict of his justice could do. (Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace X. 27)" So we can refer to real Calvinists as free will calvinists since the father of calvinism declares free will. As they like to say all the time Free Willers. So it's the old pot calling the kettle black lol. Weirdly Augustine took it all back later on and wasn't into free will after all... like moderns he wanted to maintain both ends.. But what runs through and through all his work is that he was a platonist. Ditto |
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Post by Theophilus on May 26, 2023 8:49:47 GMT -8
I understand where you're coming from and how frustrating it can be. What I did was just leave Calvinism behind me. As you know it's always going to be the same old same old. I personally had enough of it. I enjoy discussing and learning about other topics. You should try that, I've heard that Christology Is a good one. Great advice let’s close this part of the forum 😂 lol. Or we double down yeah that sounds good. Let's hit them with some Provisionism. |
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As they like to say all the time Free Willers. So its the old pot calling the kettle black lol. 
