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Post by charismaticlady on Aug 1, 2023 15:53:51 GMT -8
the Old man was crucified and was resurrected. It died. WE ARE FREED FROM SIN. WE ARE NO LONGER SLAVES OF SIN!
How can you oppose the obvious.
Romans 6:5-7 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our OLD MAN was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
We just have a different understanding about "the flesh." When the NT uses the word flesh it is almost always in reference to the sin nature. Another phrase for the sin nature is "the carnal mind," which means sinful thinking as in the "old man," as one who is yet to be reborn, i.e. "sinner." Thus Paul said, "the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom 8:7). The old man is the carnal mind, which can never be "subject to the law of God," so it can only be crucified on the Cross until the Lord Jesus returns; and crucification only annuls the curse and guilt of it, not its death. That would mean we no longer sin, which cannot be so. The "body of sin" is the old man and its "members," like a body (Rom 6:6; Col 3:5). Its "destruction" only involves its ability to cause us to want to sin, which it can no longer do to the believer, being reborn (Rom 6:12, 14); but there is no antihalation or removal of the old man. The point is that we will "not serve sin" (Ro 6:6), which means willfully commit sin; and now it's no longer willful, but we still sin. We are just going to continue to disagree on this issue. God bless! You're a teacher and I can't in good conscience leave you in the dark. We shouldn't be disagreeing if you believe "the flesh" is the sin nature - the carnal mind. That's what I believe too. But read Romans 7:5 and see that Paul is talking past tense. You used verse 20 from that chapter that had to do with the Old Covenant when they were STILL IN THE FLESH. Now read verse 5 and Romans 8:9.
Romans 7:5-6 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Do you see? Now Paul goes on to the New Covenant in chapter 8. You only quoted verse 8, and completely missed the key verse, 9.
Romans 8:1-9 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
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netchaplain
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The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ, but Christ living His life in us!
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Post by netchaplain on Aug 1, 2023 18:59:41 GMT -8
You used verse 20 from that chapter that had to do with the Old Covenant when they were STILL IN THE FLESH. Now read verse 5 and Romans 8:9.
Romans 7:5-6 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Do you see? Now Paul goes on to the New Covenant in chapter 8. You only quoted verse 8, and completely missed the key verse, 9.
Romans 8:1-9 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Romans 7:20 is a reiteration of verse 17, and means that Paul in his new man never sins, but in his old man--it's still the old man sinning, which is what it can only do. But Paul (or we) is no longer part of the old man, we have been sanctified from it (Ro 8:9)--but now we are only the new man, while the old man still sins; we are no longer in it. God keeps us separate from the sins of the old man, unless the sin is intentional (willful) demonstrating that we are not yet reborn or saved. |
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Post by charismaticlady on Aug 2, 2023 7:17:48 GMT -8
Romans 7:5-6 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Do you see? Now Paul goes on to the New Covenant in chapter 8. You only quoted verse 8, and completely missed the key verse, 9.
Romans 8:1-9 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Romans 7:20 is a reiteration of verse 17, and means that Paul in his new man never sins, but in his old man--it's still the old man sinning, which is what it can only do. But Paul (or we) is no longer part of the old man, we have been sanctified from it (Ro 8:9)--but now we are only the new man, while the old man still sins; we are no longer in it. God keeps us separate from the sins of the old man, unless the sin is intentional (willful) demonstrating that we are not yet reborn or saved. What does this mean? You: "while the old man still sins; we are no longer in it." So if we are no longer in it, WHEN does the old man STILL sin. It has been crucified and is dead. And as I said, ANY verse inside Romans 7:14-25 is still under the law BEFORE Christ, so 20 reiterating 17 is a mute point.
I agree that many in the Church are not yet born again and the old man is still in charge and has never died. They can still repent. But once born again for real, the old man is dead. The only way to go back and create a new sin nature is to quench the Spirit and willfully apostatize and there is no more sacrifice for sin. But they never desire to repent and become a Christian again anyway. God has hardened their heart afterwards and will not allow them to repent. Hebrews 6 and 10. Repentance is a state of mind allowed by God, or not. 2 Tim. 2:25
What we may not agree on (I don't know) is if a person can go in and out of the Spirit. Probably after the honeymoon period and God puts us into trials in a wilderness period to test our faith. But once we truly abide in Christ and He in us we are mature in the faith. And protect the fruit to please God.
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netchaplain
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Post by netchaplain on Aug 2, 2023 13:27:46 GMT -8
What does this mean? You: "while the old man still sins; we are no longer in it." So if we are no longer in it, WHEN does the old man STILL sin. It has been crucified and is dead. Crucified doesn't always mean dead, the old man is retained on the Cross until He comes ("is crucified" or being crucified - Ro 6:6). Nowhere does it say the old man is dead, and is why Christians still sin, just no longer willfully. It is not annihilated nor removed, but its power to cause the believer to want to sin is annulled (Ro 6:12, 14). God no longer considers the believer after the sin nature (old man; flesh) but after His Son (Ro 8:9). |
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Post by charismaticlady on Aug 2, 2023 14:18:44 GMT -8
Crucified doesn't always mean dead, the old man is retained on the Cross until He comes ("is crucified" or being crucified - Ro 6:6). Nowhere does it say the old man is dead, and is why Christians still sin, just no longer willfully. It is not annihilated nor removed, but its power to cause the believer to want to sin is annulled (Ro 6:12, 14). God no longer considers the believer after the sin nature (old man; flesh) but after His Son (Ro 8:9). Yes, Christians sin, but what type of sin? There are two types! Jesus took away the type of sin called sins unto death. Those were against the Ten Commandments. That is why a Christian cannot murder, we cannot steal, we cannot commit adultery. These desires do not even tempt us. We are free, and yes, that old man is dead. We are clean. No one that is crucified remained alive. 1 John 3:4-6. Those who are dead to these sins must abide in Christ and He in them. 1 John 3:24 "24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
The second type of sin are sins not unto death. The two types are both mentioned in 1 John 5:16-17.
John 15:1-4 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
Do not think that the only type of sins that count are lawlessness. 2 Peter 1 calls us blind and unfruitful if we do. 2 Peter 1:5-9 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
Those who are barren and unfruitful John 15 says Jesus cuts takes them away.
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netchaplain
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The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ, but Christ living His life in us!
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Post by netchaplain on Aug 3, 2023 5:10:11 GMT -8
Yes, Christians sin, but what type of sin? There are two types! Jesus took away the type of sin called sins unto death. Those were against the Ten Commandments. That is why a Christian cannot murder, we cannot steal, we cannot commit adultery. These desires do not even tempt us. We are free, and yes, that old man is dead. We are clean. No one that is crucified remained alive.
It's ok, but we are too different in or understanding to continue our discussion on these issues. But I do appreciate your replies. God bless! |
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Post by charismaticlady on Aug 3, 2023 17:30:03 GMT -8
Yes, Christians sin, but what type of sin? There are two types! Jesus took away the type of sin called sins unto death. Those were against the Ten Commandments. That is why a Christian cannot murder, we cannot steal, we cannot commit adultery. These desires do not even tempt us. We are free, and yes, that old man is dead. We are clean. No one that is crucified remained alive.
It's ok, but we are too different in or understanding to continue our discussion on these issues. But I do appreciate your replies. God bless! Don't you want to grow yourself? What about me? Do you not care that I might believe a lie? I love you enough to discuss the Scriptures to find the one and only truth. NC, God is the One Author, so there is one and only one interpretation. Don't you want to discuss this WITH SCRIPTURE? You haven't even given a scripture or challenged my interpretation? Why? Don't you love me?  |
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netchaplain
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The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ, but Christ living His life in us!
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Post by netchaplain on Aug 4, 2023 4:39:30 GMT -8
It's ok, but we are too different in or understanding to continue our discussion on these issues. But I do appreciate your replies. God bless! Don't you want to grow yourself? What about me? Do you not care that I might believe a lie? I love you enough to discuss the Scriptures to find the one and only truth. NC, God is the One Author, so there is one and only one interpretation. Don't you want to discuss this WITH SCRIPTURE? You haven't even given a scripture or challenged my interpretation? Why? Don't you love me? I don't know if this would if this would involve you, but there are many who just want to argue with the intention of being superior in their knowledge. Some are actually superior but many are not using it for the right reasons, because of being caught up with selfish pride. To be honest and open with you, I want to let you know that there are quite a few basic doctrines that you do not seem to have right, and I thought you might not be interested in what I share because of much of it being in disagreement with your beliefs. So I didn't want to chance offending you. |
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Post by charismaticlady on Aug 4, 2023 5:11:34 GMT -8
Don't you want to grow yourself? What about me? Do you not care that I might believe a lie? I love you enough to discuss the Scriptures to find the one and only truth. NC, God is the One Author, so there is one and only one interpretation. Don't you want to discuss this WITH SCRIPTURE? You haven't even given a scripture or challenged my interpretation? Why? Don't you love me? I don't know if this would if this would involve you, but there are many who just want to argue with the intention of being superior in their knowledge. Some are actually superior but many are not using it for the right reasons, because of being caught up with selfish pride. To be honest and open with you, I want to let you know that there are quite a few basic doctrines that you do not seem to have right, and I thought you might not be interested in what I share because of much of it being in disagreement with your beliefs. So I didn't want to chance offending you. NC, no one agrees with me; that doesn't bother me. LOL All I ask is that we discuss Scripture and find the one interpretation that is truth. That's all I care about - What does God mean. It is frustrating to me when I provide scriptural documentation, and you don't acknowledge whether you agree with the Scripture, or are confused. I know many use a misinterpretation of 1 John 1:8 and won't even consider the contradicting Scriptures to be the truth. It seems the lukewarm church age has made a foundation of 1 John 1:8 and has totally disregarded what Jesus accomplished on the cross to take away our sin, first through the cleansing of our nature of moral sin, and then the maturing of the fruit of the Spirit, both progressed by abiding In Him.
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netchaplain
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The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ, but Christ living His life in us!
Posts: 206
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Post by netchaplain on Aug 4, 2023 6:11:06 GMT -8
I don't know if this would if this would involve you, but there are many who just want to argue with the intention of being superior in their knowledge. Some are actually superior but many are not using it for the right reasons, because of being caught up with selfish pride. To be honest and open with you, I want to let you know that there are quite a few basic doctrines that you do not seem to have right, and I thought you might not be interested in what I share because of much of it being in disagreement with your beliefs. So I didn't want to chance offending you. NC, no one agrees with me; that doesn't bother me. LOL All I ask is that we discuss Scripture and find the one interpretation that is truth. That's all I care about - What does God mean. It is frustrating to me when I provide scriptural documentation, and you don't acknowledge whether you agree with the Scripture, or are confused. I know many use a misinterpretation of 1 John 1:8 and won't even consider the contradicting Scriptures to be the truth. It seems the lukewarm church age has made a foundation of 1 John 1:8 and has totally disregarded what Jesus accomplished on the cross to take away our sin, first through the cleansing of our nature of moral sin, and then the maturing of the fruit of the Spirit, both progressed by abiding In Him.
Thanks, and I appreciate everything you are saying! I didn't realize I was not acknowledging you anywhere, but I will answer you if I understand that I need to reply to something I missed. Concerning 1Jn 1:8, to me it means that if we ever say we have no sin, while on this earth, "the truth is not in us." Many do not believe that the old man and the new man simultaneously indwells the believer. Thus we still have sin and its source, which is the old man or sin nature; and this is where God is glorified the most--by sanctifying the believer from the old man, which is the "carnal mind" or "flesh" - Ro 8:9. When Scripture says we are not in the "flesh," to me it's saying we are no longer desire after the flesh (sin nature, not the physical body); though we unwilfully sin. The Christians sins will be more in the way of impulse, like wrath, jealousy, envy, etc., and not "presumably" (Num 15:28, 30) or "willfully" (Heb 10:26). Babes in Christ are given enough time to mature in Christ, and the sins of mature believers will continue to decrease, but never stop. As long as we are here we possess the sin nature and will sin; and the sins will be progressively less frequent and less severe, but what God wants is that we do not sin on purpose, because our hearts are for Him now and forever (Mat 6:21). God always has believers where He wants them for the time (Phl 2:13); and there will always be maturing in Christ until we're gone (Eph 4:15). I love you in Christ! God's blessings to your Family, and God be blessed!! |
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Post by charismaticlady on Aug 4, 2023 12:55:46 GMT -8
NC, no one agrees with me; that doesn't bother me. LOL All I ask is that we discuss Scripture and find the one interpretation that is truth. That's all I care about - What does God mean. It is frustrating to me when I provide scriptural documentation, and you don't acknowledge whether you agree with the Scripture, or are confused. I know many use a misinterpretation of 1 John 1:8 and won't even consider the contradicting Scriptures to be the truth. It seems the lukewarm church age has made a foundation of 1 John 1:8 and has totally disregarded what Jesus accomplished on the cross to take away our sin, first through the cleansing of our nature of moral sin, and then the maturing of the fruit of the Spirit, both progressed by abiding In Him.
Thanks, and I appreciate everything you are saying! I didn't realize I was not acknowledging you anywhere, but I will answer you if I understand that I need to reply to something I missed. Concerning 1Jn 1:8, to me it means that if we ever say we have no sin, while on this earth, "the truth is not in us." Many do not believe that the old man and the new man simultaneously indwells the believer. Thus we still have sin and its source, which is the old man or sin nature; and this is where God is glorified the most--by sanctifying the believer from the old man, which is the "carnal mind" or "flesh" - Ro 8:9. When Scripture says we are not in the "flesh," to me it's saying we are no longer desire after the flesh (sin nature, not the physical body); though we unwilfully sin. The Christians sins will be more in the way of impulse, like wrath, jealousy, envy, etc., and not "presumably" (Num 15:28, 30) or "willfully" (Heb 10:26). Babes in Christ are given enough time to mature in Christ, and the sins of mature believers will continue to decrease, but never stop. As long as we are here we possess the sin nature and will sin; and the sins will be progressively less frequent and less severe, but what God wants is that we do not sin on purpose, because our hearts are for Him now and forever (Mat 6:21). God always has believers where He wants them for the time (Phl 2:13); and there will always be maturing in Christ until we're gone (Eph 4:15). I love you in Christ! God's blessings to your Family, and God be blessed!! 1 John 1:8
In my studies I noticed that John uses "key words." He did so in 1 John 1 and 2. To understand chapter one we must understand how he uses the key word in chapter two. I made a little document on the key word SAY/SAYS. It has to do with those who say one thing but do another. That is why 1 John 1:8 is a lie, not that if someone doesn't sin and they say they don't, they are lying. We are to let our yes be yes, and our no be no. 1 John 1:8 and 9 are one thought. Since Adam sinned, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But that is UNTIL Jesus. Jesus TAKES AWAY our sin, and in Him there is no sin. Meaning as long as you ABIDE in Jesus you both cannot commit a moral sin (Heb. 10:26; Numbers 15:30-36) nor a venial sin (Num. 15:22-29, John 15:4)
SAYS/SAY
1 John 2
4 He who SAYS, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
9 He who SAYS he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now.
1 John 1
6 If we SAY that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 1 John 2:9
8 If we SAY that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 2:4 (With verse 9: If you confess your sins....and are cleansed of all unrighteousness, you are NOT lying because now you will be walking in the light without sin.)
10 If we SAY that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 2:4
(Verse 10 is after 9 because this is also a Semitic writing style of the Jews called a contrast. This one is from verse 5-10. LIGHT vs. DARKNESS. God is light; if you walk in darkness; if you walk in the light; no truth in us; (darkness)
cleansed of all unrighteousness; (light)
word is not in us (darkness)
I'll keep this short.
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netchaplain
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The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ, but Christ living His life in us!
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Post by netchaplain on Aug 4, 2023 13:17:37 GMT -8
That is why 1 John 1:8 is a lie Don't know what you mean here. Nothing Scripture says is a lie! |
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Post by charismaticlady on Aug 4, 2023 13:40:15 GMT -8
Don't know what you mean here. Nothing Scripture says is a lie!
In the context of the two chapters vs. 8 is one who says one thing but does another - a lie. The previous verse 7 is someone who walks the walk. verse 8 is someone who just talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.
In other words vs. 8 is before Christ. vs. 9 is how to become a Christian and be cleansed of all unrighteousness.
Verse 10 is also a lie for the same reasons, and because Paul said in Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Verse 8 is NOT A CHRISTIAN. A true born again Christian cannot sin against the laws of God because Jesus destroyed the works of the devil in us which is how he can cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 3:8-9 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
At this first stage of our faith when he takes away our moral sins against the Ten Commandments we are RIGHTEOUS.
But Jesus wants us to go on to holiness. 1 Peter 1:16 "Be holy for I am holy."
This is progressive and the second type of sin - immature fruit. Peter shows us how.
2 Peter 1:5-7
What is a progress is the maturing of the fruit of the Spirit. That is why Peter makes it progressive in 2 Peter 1:5-7. "5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love." When all the fruit of the Spirit are mature then we are as Peter said in 1 Peter 1:16 “Be holy, for I am holy.” HOLY
Revelation 22:11 he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”
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