|
|
Post by praiseyeshua on May 10, 2023 12:28:34 GMT -8
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
As good as DEAD........
Hebrews 11:12 is a reference to the condition of Abraham before he FATHERED..... Isaac. We know that seed of Abraham was still capable of producing life. it wasn't the fact that Abraham couldn't father children. We know that Abraham had several sons by Keturah. Hence the phrase "as good as dead". Not literally dead but "practically" dead. "Reckoned" dead..... The "odds" being against the contrary.
When we deal with DEATH in the Scriptures, there are many times "death" is referenced in similar manner. Take for example the widow's son that Elijah raised from the dead. There is no reference in the narrative that literally establishes the boy as being dead. There is no doubt that had NOT Elijah prayed for the boy..... He would have literally DIED.... The boy was "as good as dead"...... Though he wasn't past HOPE... Yet.
Which brings us to the work of Christ....
In like manner Adam, was reckoned DEAD.... but not PAST HOPE. Not literally DEAD. Not "Total Depraved" to the point the work of Christ couldn't make the difference. Had not Christ Jesus did what ONLY He could do..... Then all of those in Adam would be literally dead in SIN......
Thank God while there is still breath in our lungs. While we can still discern the Glorious "Good News" of the work of Christ.... there is still HOPE......Christ made sure of that.........
I believe both sides of this "battle" that exists between Arminians and Calvinists.... need to reconsider what they believe about the "death" reckoned to Adam in his sin.
|
|
|
|
Post by Obadiah on May 10, 2023 14:17:02 GMT -8
Good point. Makes a lot of sense. I don't think you could get Calvinists to even consider it. Armenians Would probably like it since it diminishes total depravity.
Ephesians 2:1-2 says "And you were dead in the transgressions and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience".
Paul explains to his readers that they were spiritually dead. They may have had healthy bodies, lively minds and attractive personalities—but their souls were dead.
The change from death to life happens by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ as explained in verses Eph 2:4-9.
God has saved us from sin and death and given us victory over the powers of evil. We didn’t achieve this by ourselves, and we certainly didn’t deserve it. But God has done it for us. We are prize examples of what God can do!
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God Eph 2:8
|
|
|
|
Post by Bronson on May 11, 2023 6:30:21 GMT -8
Everybody dies. Not only does everybody die; everybody gets sick, everybody has trouble. But everyone dies. The Old Testament says this, “The soul that sins, it shall die.” The New Testament says, “The wages of sin is death.” Scripture is crystal clear on that.
The Bible says: The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made” (Psalm 145:9). Jesus said God causes “his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous” (Matthew 5:45) and God “is kind to the ungrateful and wicked” (Luke 6:35).
What came to my mind after reading the OP was Common Grace. Common Grace seems to be the opposite of total depravity. God had to build into human life barriers, restraints – restraints to mitigate this evil, to mitigate this corruption, to subdue sinful passion and expression so that man could make a society and be civilized and enjoy His creation, and find happiness, and peace, and a measure of joy and gratitude. These restraints are absolutely critical. Where these restraints function as God intended them to function life is good, people enjoy Common Graces, life is rich. Where these restraints are assaulted, corrupted, diminished, rebelled against, society is on the brink of self-destruction. Then you have total depravity.
But God has given us an antidote called conscience. Conscience is a device that God has given to every human being to react to that law. When you violate the law of love in the heart, you get accused by your conscience.
I see this Common Grace in many areas of our life's: the moral realm because people are not as evil as they could be, the creative realm as we can both produce and appreciate many different kinds of good and beautiful things. We can prosper and have beautiful families' friendships.
The bad news with Common Grace is you're still Spiritually dead inside. Only Jesus can give us life. Jesus explains that He has come to give abundant or full life (John 10:10). Abundant life in the biblical sense is not worldly riches or material goods, but eternal life.
|
|
|
|
Post by Unmerited on May 11, 2023 6:39:46 GMT -8
Everybody dies. Not only does everybody die; everybody gets sick, everybody has trouble. But everyone dies. The Old Testament says this, “The soul that sins, it shall die.” The New Testament says, “The wages of sin is death.” Scripture is crystal clear on that. The Bible says: The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made” (Psalm 145:9). Jesus said God causes “his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous” (Matthew 5:45) and God “is kind to the ungrateful and wicked” (Luke 6:35). What came to my mind after reading the OP was Common Grace. Common Grace seems to be the opposite of total depravity. God had to build into human life barriers, restraints – restraints to mitigate this evil, to mitigate this corruption, to subdue sinful passion and expression so that man could make a society and be civilized and enjoy His creation, and find happiness, and peace, and a measure of joy and gratitude. These restraints are absolutely critical. Where these restraints function as God intended them to function life is good, people enjoy Common Graces, life is rich. Where these restraints are assaulted, corrupted, diminished, rebelled against, society is on the brink of self-destruction. Then you have total depravity. But God has given us an antidote called conscience. Conscience is a device that God has given to every human being to react to that law. When you violate the law of love in the heart, you get accused by your conscience. I see this Common Grace in many areas of our life's: the moral realm because people are not as evil as they could be, the creative realm as we can both produce and appreciate many different kinds of good and beautiful things. We can prosper and have beautiful families' friendships. The bad news with Common Grace is you're still Spiritually dead inside. Only Jesus can give us life. Jesus explains that He has come to give abundant or full life (John 10:10). Abundant life in the biblical sense is not worldly riches or material goods, but eternal life. Here's the reformed view of common Grace. The Reformed tradition understands this doctrine as a supplement to the doctrine of total depravity. Since man is pervasively depraved, no continuance of human history, development of culture, or growth in common virtue can occur without some operation of God’s common grace. Despite the fact that all people are “dead in trespasses and sins” by nature (Eph. 2:1–4), God has not removed the general operations of His Spirit from among them. He is constantly restraining evil and manifesting His goodness in this fallen world and among sin-cursed individuals. Ligonier Ministries |
|
|
|
Post by praiseyeshua on May 11, 2023 10:05:47 GMT -8
Everybody dies. Not only does everybody die; everybody gets sick, everybody has trouble. But everyone dies. The Old Testament says this, “The soul that sins, it shall die.” The New Testament says, “The wages of sin is death.” Scripture is crystal clear on that. The Bible says: The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made” (Psalm 145:9). Jesus said God causes “his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous” (Matthew 5:45) and God “is kind to the ungrateful and wicked” (Luke 6:35). What came to my mind after reading the OP was Common Grace. Common Grace seems to be the opposite of total depravity. God had to build into human life barriers, restraints – restraints to mitigate this evil, to mitigate this corruption, to subdue sinful passion and expression so that man could make a society and be civilized and enjoy His creation, and find happiness, and peace, and a measure of joy and gratitude. These restraints are absolutely critical. Where these restraints function as God intended them to function life is good, people enjoy Common Graces, life is rich. Where these restraints are assaulted, corrupted, diminished, rebelled against, society is on the brink of self-destruction. Then you have total depravity. But God has given us an antidote called conscience. Conscience is a device that God has given to every human being to react to that law. When you violate the law of love in the heart, you get accused by your conscience. I see this Common Grace in many areas of our life's: the moral realm because people are not as evil as they could be, the creative realm as we can both produce and appreciate many different kinds of good and beautiful things. We can prosper and have beautiful families' friendships. The bad news with Common Grace is you're still Spiritually dead inside. Only Jesus can give us life. Jesus explains that He has come to give abundant or full life (John 10:10). Abundant life in the biblical sense is not worldly riches or material goods, but eternal life. While death is an absolute in the aspect of being "final". It is nevertheless progressive. As witnessed in your response. Both sides treat death as a "hard line" in the sand when it is clearly treated as an abstract progressive finality in Scripture. Which is so very difficult to get either side to realize..... For example, Calvinism insists that Adam literally/spiritual died when he sinned. I use "literally and spiritual" together because it doesn't matter that they claim they are two distinct facets/realties of existence. They TREAT them the same in their explanation. They will tell you that Adam physically lost any and all sense of spiritual things. Which is not true whatsoever. I have often gotten to this point in a conversation concerning concepts of Dichotomy and Trichotomy....... only to lose the focus of the conversation because this a complex construct. The very breath of God that animated and filled the bodily form of Adam NEVER LEFT ADAM.... after he sinned. In fact, that "breath" formed in Adam a derivative "spirit" innate to common man. A "spirit" that has innate qualities of understanding imparted by the "breath of God" given to Adam. If we can accurately assess what the meaning of "death" entails in the Scriptures, we can determine what actually happened to Adam. In full disclosure, I do not believe that Adam ever possessed the same quality of Eternal life as is imparted to believers of the Lord Jesus Christ. He was NEVER born of the Spirit in the same manner as we are when we are "born again". Being "born again" really isn't about gaining back with Adam lost. It is becoming something Adam never was..... Theological teachings of Dichotomy and Trichotomy need to be understood to adequately address what man/Adam was actually created to be. In keeping with the OP. Adam was targeted to literally die when he sinned. An absolute finality in eternal damnation, however, Adam did NOT spiritual die as commonly taught in Arminianism and Calvinism both. Adam never lost the presence of God. Verses to consider..... Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. 1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Focus should be upon "living soul". Just my penny. Hope this furthers the discussion. |
|
|
|
Post by praiseyeshua on May 11, 2023 10:11:16 GMT -8
Everybody dies. Not only does everybody die; everybody gets sick, everybody has trouble. But everyone dies. The Old Testament says this, “The soul that sins, it shall die.” The New Testament says, “The wages of sin is death.” Scripture is crystal clear on that. The Bible says: The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made” (Psalm 145:9). Jesus said God causes “his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous” (Matthew 5:45) and God “is kind to the ungrateful and wicked” (Luke 6:35). What came to my mind after reading the OP was Common Grace. Common Grace seems to be the opposite of total depravity. God had to build into human life barriers, restraints – restraints to mitigate this evil, to mitigate this corruption, to subdue sinful passion and expression so that man could make a society and be civilized and enjoy His creation, and find happiness, and peace, and a measure of joy and gratitude. These restraints are absolutely critical. Where these restraints function as God intended them to function life is good, people enjoy Common Graces, life is rich. Where these restraints are assaulted, corrupted, diminished, rebelled against, society is on the brink of self-destruction. Then you have total depravity. But God has given us an antidote called conscience. Conscience is a device that God has given to every human being to react to that law. When you violate the law of love in the heart, you get accused by your conscience. I see this Common Grace in many areas of our life's: the moral realm because people are not as evil as they could be, the creative realm as we can both produce and appreciate many different kinds of good and beautiful things. We can prosper and have beautiful families' friendships. The bad news with Common Grace is you're still Spiritually dead inside. Only Jesus can give us life. Jesus explains that He has come to give abundant or full life (John 10:10). Abundant life in the biblical sense is not worldly riches or material goods, but eternal life. Here's the reformed view of common Grace. The Reformed tradition understands this doctrine as a supplement to the doctrine of total depravity. Since man is pervasively depraved, no continuance of human history, development of culture, or growth in common virtue can occur without some operation of God’s common grace. Despite the fact that all people are “dead in trespasses and sins” by nature (Eph. 2:1–4), God has not removed the general operations of His Spirit from among them. He is constantly restraining evil and manifesting His goodness in this fallen world and among sin-cursed individuals. Ligonier MinistriesIt is a mistake to believe that all of these influences are solely EXTERNAL to man...... as witnessed by these words... Calvinism has crafted a "privileged" position reserved to their own benefit for "internal" influence. Which ultimately "besmirches" the Glorious character of God. Even worse, they claim, God takes pleasure in establishing this privileged position to the exclusion of others of the same qualities of existence as they are. |
|
|
|
Post by Unmerited on May 12, 2023 4:14:16 GMT -8
Here's the reformed view of common Grace. The Reformed tradition understands this doctrine as a supplement to the doctrine of total depravity. Since man is pervasively depraved, no continuance of human history, development of culture, or growth in common virtue can occur without some operation of God’s common grace. Despite the fact that all people are “dead in trespasses and sins” by nature (Eph. 2:1–4), God has not removed the general operations of His Spirit from among them. He is constantly restraining evil and manifesting His goodness in this fallen world and among sin-cursed individuals. Ligonier MinistriesIt is a mistake to believe that all of these influences are solely EXTERNAL to man...... as witnessed by these words... Calvinism has crafted a "privileged" position reserved to their own benefit for "internal" influence. Which ultimately "besmirches" the Glorious character of God. Even worse, they claim, God takes pleasure in establishing this privileged position to the exclusion of others of the same qualities of existence as they are. Exactly, And the list goes on. In the weakness of our own intellect, relying upon our own Man-made doctrines, we can try to work out the problem. When we do, the result is inevitably the same. We find ourselves living a lie instead of the truth. |
|
|
|
Post by civic on May 12, 2023 5:46:55 GMT -8
It is a mistake to believe that all of these influences are solely EXTERNAL to man...... as witnessed by these words... Calvinism has crafted a "privileged" position reserved to their own benefit for "internal" influence. Which ultimately "besmirches" the Glorious character of God. Even worse, they claim, God takes pleasure in establishing this privileged position to the exclusion of others of the same qualities of existence as they are. Exactly, And the list goes on. In the weakness of our own intellect, relying upon our own Man-made doctrines, we can try to work out the problem. When we do, the result is inevitably the same. We find ourselves living a lie instead of the truth. I was able to talk with one of our church leaders after Thursday mornings discipleship was over at breakfast. I brought up the doctrines of grace and we discussed how they actually make God unloving and unjust when you think through them and that its an attack/assault on the very character of God. He was able to see that was true and we discussed someone who had filled in for the pastor who was out of town and discussed a couple of issues I had with the message about being dead, a corpse and about the Lords table and to properly discern the body and blood of Jesus in the atonement. He didn't pick up on it listening to it on Sunday but when I pointed it out he was made aware what was being said. I let him know my "radar" went off because I was hearing Calvinism coming across from the pulpit, not what the passage was teaching. Certain buzz words used by calvinists and off goes my spidey sensor. |
|
|
|
Post by Theophilus on May 12, 2023 6:18:01 GMT -8
Exactly, And the list goes on. In the weakness of our own intellect, relying upon our own Man-made doctrines, we can try to work out the problem. When we do, the result is inevitably the same. We find ourselves living a lie instead of the truth. I was able to talk with one of our church leaders after Thursday mornings discipleship was over at breakfast. I brought up the doctrines of grace and we discussed how they actually make God unloving and unjust when you think through them and that its an attack/assault on the very character of God. He was able to see that was true and we discussed someone who had filled in for the pastor who was out of town and discussed a couple of issues I had with the message about being dead, a corpse and about the Lords table and to properly discern the body and blood of Jesus in the atonement. He didn't pick up on it listening to it on Sunday but when I pointed it out he was made aware what was being said. I let him know my "radar" went off because I was hearing Calvinism coming across from the pulpit, not what the passage was teaching. Certain buzz words used by calvinists and off goes my spidey sensor. If you look at the negative side of how long you spent in Calvinism it seems like one big waste. But if you look at the positive side...“You intended to harm me(Calvinism), but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives” (Genesis 50:20). I've heard it said many times that in our Christian Life if we lead someone to the truth, Just one person, then we have accomplished a lot for the kingdom of God. I know that you've LED more than one person out of the LIE of Calvinism. Myself included. It might just be your calling. Set those captives free. We know it's not you personally but God working through you. You are like a willing vessel. |
|
|
|
Post by Bronson on May 12, 2023 7:44:55 GMT -8
While death is an absolute in the aspect of being "final". It is nevertheless progressive. As witnessed in your response. Both sides treat death as a "hard line" in the sand when it is clearly treated as an abstract progressive finality in Scripture. Which is so very difficult to get either side to realize..... For example, Calvinism insists that Adam literally/spiritual died when he sinned. I use "literally and spiritual" together because it doesn't matter that they claim they are two distinct facets/realties of existence. They TREAT them the same in their explanation. They will tell you that Adam physically lost any and all sense of spiritual things. Which is not true whatsoever. I have often gotten to this point in a conversation concerning concepts of Dichotomy and Trichotomy....... only to lose the focus of the conversation because this a complex construct. The very breath of God that animated and filled the bodily form of Adam NEVER LEFT ADAM.... after he sinned. In fact, that "breath" formed in Adam a derivative "spirit" innate to common man. A "spirit" that has innate qualities of understanding imparted by the "breath of God" given to Adam. If we can accurately assess what the meaning of "death" entails in the Scriptures, we can determine what actually happened to Adam. In full disclosure, I do not believe that Adam ever possessed the same quality of Eternal life as is imparted to believers of the Lord Jesus Christ. He was NEVER born of the Spirit in the same manner as we are when we are "born again". Being "born again" really isn't about gaining back with Adam lost. It is becoming something Adam never was..... Theological teachings of Dichotomy and Trichotomy need to be understood to adequately address what man/Adam was actually created to be. In keeping with the OP. Adam was targeted to literally die when he sinned. An absolute finality in eternal damnation, however, Adam did NOT spiritual die as commonly taught in Arminianism and Calvinism both. Adam never lost the presence of God. Verses to consider..... Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. 1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Focus should be upon "living soul". Just my penny. Hope this furthers the discussion. In the Genesis, the tree of life symbolizes the fullness of life and immortality available in God. Genesis 3:24 also states that God banished man from “the way to the Tree of Life”; this is symbolic because for at least 4000 years Jesus Christ would not be in the world and there would be no way back to God. But when Jesus came back and died for our sins, the way back to God was restored, and Jesus became our new Tree of Life. "In Revelation 2:7 and 11, the saints who emerge victorious in Christ through testing are promised the tree of life (Rev 2:7) and deliverance from the second death (Rev 2:11). Some say that in this context, the tree of life symbolizes the cross, which makes access to God and eternal life possible."
"It is likely that Adam and Eve had access to the Tree of Life prior to their sin, and thus a lack of access to it is what brought about death. It could also be that Adam and Eve were never meant to live forever on earth and God just ensured this by keeping them from the tree of life after their sin. There is also no earlier prohibition against eating from the tree of life and Adam and Eve are told that they may eat from any tree in the garden but the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:17). In this regard, the tree of life is not directly kept from them earlier in the text."The Lexham Bible Dictionary |
|
