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Post by 360watt on May 27, 2023 1:36:29 GMT -8
Often you will see a statement like 'the church is in decline' or 'the church made a statement ' or 'the church ' of America.
What do we mean by this?
In Matthew 16:18.. we see Jesus saying He build His church.
But then in Matthew 18:20 we see the process for church discipline.. with having grievances sorted by 'taking it to the church'
Now.. many will say the church in question in Matthew 16 is 'all redeemed'... 'universal, invisible
But there is a problem. The church in Matthew 18 is definitely local and visible.
So I have been told it's the two different types. But Jesus would not have introduced the church one way.. and then contradicted it later.
It's got to be local and visible in both cases.
So then we go to Acts and see the church being added to.
Many assume this to be all redeemed being added to.. but this is the church at Jerusalem being added to with more members. Already redeemed people joining this local and visible assembly.
There are many more references for the church. Almost all are directly of one particular local and visible assembly.
The few cases where it is not .. it's speaking of the church unit.. not a specific example but still local and visible.
I believe the entity of all redeemed should not be called 'the church'. The church is defined by assembling, congregating, unity and locality.
All redeemed do not assemble, have no locality and do not congregate.
The only time when all redeemed is a church is when all redeemed are one body as the New Jerusalem. Until then.. all redeemed are not a church.. and are part of the Family of God. Not the church.
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Post by civic on May 27, 2023 4:24:52 GMT -8
This is a very interesting topic that I have not thought of before. I will have to give this some thought before I can say I agree or disagree. But right off the top I understand the argument you are making but need to give it some more thought. Thanks for posting the topic here.
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Post by Redeemed on May 27, 2023 5:29:52 GMT -8
360watt civicHave no fear Redeemed is here. I've always assumed “The Church” refers to all the people who belong to the Lord, those who have been purchased by the blood of Christ. I've also heard “The Church” referred to as the body of Christ, the family of God, the people of God, the elect, the bride of Christ. It would be great to get some new input and a better understanding of what the church actually is. So I'll be looking forward to reading the posts that are added to this thread. And welcome to the Forum!
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Post by Theophilus on May 27, 2023 7:54:33 GMT -8
Awesome thread, think I'll be learning a lot from it. I'm going to start from the foundation up.
What is the foundation of the church? Have you ever heard that old hymn, “The church’s one foundation is Jesus Christ our Lord.” Jesus is part of the foundation for sure, but He is not just the foundation, He is called the chief cornerstone of the church. The entire foundation is built in Him as the chief cornerstone.
But what’s the foundation? The foundation, according to the New Testament, is the Apostles and the prophets. Remember Jesus told Peter...And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:15–18).
The church that Christ established is built not on a foundation of sand, but it’s built upon a rock, and the rock upon which it is built, according to the New Testament imagery is the rock of the prophetic and Apostolic Word—Found in the Bible.
So when we preach the word we reinforce the foundation of the church. The church I attend does a lot of church planting. One that amazes me is in Guatemala. The change in the community around the church is amazing. It's like watching the love of God in action. What comes to mind is that in the future that church will spread out and plant more churches. The same way it worked after Pentecost.
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Post by 360watt on May 27, 2023 11:02:14 GMT -8
Another reference is 'there is one body, one faith, one baptism..' in Ephesians. Things to note: 'there is'.. is an insertion for bibles that are honest about it. So it can read just 'one body, one faith, one baptism' So that means, it can apply to any local body of believers.. any local congregation/assembly. In the case of the book.. it's the body at Ephesus. The body of Christ.. is not Christ's literal body.. unless that is the context of the passage. It is body as in 'group' 'assembly' 'congregation'. Ecclessia is the Greek word behind the word 'church'. This is defined by congregation, assembly. From Arthur Pink: 'There are few words in the English language with a greater variety of meanings than “church.” The man in the street understands by “church” the building in which people congregate for public worship. Those who know better, apply the term to the members in spiritual fellowship who meet in that building. Others use it in a denominational way and speak of “the Methodist Church” or “Presbyterian Church.” Again, it is employed nationally of the state-religious institution as “the Church of England” or “the Church of Scotland.” With Papists the word “church” is practically synonymous with “salvation,” for they are taught that all outside the vale of “Holy Mother Church” are eternally lost.' awpink.org/2020/06/17/the-churches-of-god-1-thess-214/ |
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Post by Obadiah on May 27, 2023 12:45:04 GMT -8
360watt Nice avatar... I see the light. To be the church that Jesus built, the church must proclaim and practice not a part of the Bible only, but all of it. His church is not another church like the one of which we read in Acts; it is not one almost like it. It is the same church and continues to function as it did nineteen hundred years ago. The church being a divine institution for us must necessarily have a divine message. During the past few centuries man-made organizations have propagated some Bible doctrines most magnificently. One group has stressed salvation, another sanctification, and still another water baptism. God said, “At evening time it shall be light” Zech. 14:7. He did not say it would be hazy, misty, or vague, but light. What furnishes spiritual light? “Thy word is a … light unto my path” Psalm 119:105. It takes all the Word to produce light. God’s church, then, must preach the whole message—not just a portion. It is doubtful that all the truth has been revealed, yet when new light is disclosed God’s church will proclaim it. I want to be in the light as He is in the light.
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Post by 360watt on Jun 11, 2023 0:59:48 GMT -8
Another reference is Ephesians 4:
(Ephesians 4:15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
(Ephesians 4:16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
This body-- is 'fitly joined together and compacted'... 'every joint supplieth'.. 'effectual working in the measure of every part'.. etc..
That is NOT describing all redeemed. That's describing a local and visible saved and baptised church. This case is the body at Ephesus.
You can't apply these kind of togetherness and unified terms to a body of all redeemed that is scattered everywhere, is not unified and never meets.
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Post by Redeemed on Jun 11, 2023 7:03:52 GMT -8
That Day will not come unless the falling away comes first. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 I saw a recent Online article with this title: “Everyone Is Leaving Christianity. Few Know Where They’re Going.” This departure from biblical faith is happening so often that a new word has been coined. These defectors are no longer evangelicals; they are exvangelicals. Why is that? And what does it mean? This “falling away” is not a new phenomenon. Throughout history, many have taken up the banner of Christ only to lay it down again. Even the first generation of Christians faced this challenge. Do you know about Demas? When Paul wrote to the Colossians and to Philemon, he sent them greetings from his coworker Demas, who was at his side. Colossians 4:14 Luke the beloved physician and Demas salute you Philemon 1:24 And [from] Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers. Yet in his final letter, Paul told Timothy, “Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world” 2 Tim. 4:10 It helps me to realize the apostles faced the same problem of falling away we’re seeing today. Yet the trend toward apostasy seems to be accelerating in our times. I’m almost hesitant to read Christian news sites because I don’t want to hear of another pastor failing or another prominent believer rejecting the faith. Recent headlines aren’t encouraging, and neither are the statistics. Then there's the problem of homosexuality in the church. berean-apologetics.boards.net/post/6521/thread |
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Post by 360watt on Jun 12, 2023 17:03:58 GMT -8
That Day will not come unless the falling away comes first. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 I saw a recent Online article with this title: “Everyone Is Leaving Christianity. Few Know Where They’re Going.” This departure from biblical faith is happening so often that a new word has been coined. These defectors are no longer evangelicals; they are exvangelicals. Why is that? And what does it mean? This “falling away” is not a new phenomenon. Throughout history, many have taken up the banner of Christ only to lay it down again. Even the first generation of Christians faced this challenge. Do you know about Demas? When Paul wrote to the Colossians and to Philemon, he sent them greetings from his coworker Demas, who was at his side. Colossians 4:14 Luke the beloved physician and Demas salute you Philemon 1:24 And [from] Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers. Yet in his final letter, Paul told Timothy, “Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world” 2 Tim. 4:10 It helps me to realize the apostles faced the same problem of falling away we’re seeing today. Yet the trend toward apostasy seems to be accelerating in our times. I’m almost hesitant to read Christian news sites because I don’t want to hear of another pastor failing or another prominent believer rejecting the faith. Recent headlines aren’t encouraging, and neither are the statistics. Then there's the problem of homosexuality in the church. berean-apologetics.boards.net/post/6521/threadYeah.. the way of following Jesus thru His Word is becoming increasingly narrow compared to the world. Disagreeing with liberal ideology is becoming a crime |
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Post by civic on Jun 13, 2023 4:40:45 GMT -8
That Day will not come unless the falling away comes first. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 I saw a recent Online article with this title: “Everyone Is Leaving Christianity. Few Know Where They’re Going.” This departure from biblical faith is happening so often that a new word has been coined. These defectors are no longer evangelicals; they are exvangelicals. Why is that? And what does it mean? This “falling away” is not a new phenomenon. Throughout history, many have taken up the banner of Christ only to lay it down again. Even the first generation of Christians faced this challenge. Do you know about Demas? When Paul wrote to the Colossians and to Philemon, he sent them greetings from his coworker Demas, who was at his side. Colossians 4:14 Luke the beloved physician and Demas salute you Philemon 1:24 And [from] Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers. Yet in his final letter, Paul told Timothy, “Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world” 2 Tim. 4:10 It helps me to realize the apostles faced the same problem of falling away we’re seeing today. Yet the trend toward apostasy seems to be accelerating in our times. I’m almost hesitant to read Christian news sites because I don’t want to hear of another pastor failing or another prominent believer rejecting the faith. Recent headlines aren’t encouraging, and neither are the statistics. Then there's the problem of homosexuality in the church. berean-apologetics.boards.net/post/6521/threadYeah.. the way of following Jesus thru His Word is becoming increasingly narrow compared to the world. Disagreeing with liberal ideology is becoming a crime Yes that’s very true and it’s getting worse by the year, day. |
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Post by Theophilus on Jun 13, 2023 7:21:44 GMT -8
Yeah.. the way of following Jesus thru His Word is becoming increasingly narrow compared to the world. Disagreeing with liberal ideology is becoming a crime Yes that’s very true and it’s getting worse by the year, day. It wasn’t always like this. The church used to have a much more balanced diet. So how did we get here? Consider these reasons: Liberalism. The sustained attack on the Old Testament by liberal scholars has shaken many Christians’ confidence in this part of the Bible. Ignorance. It is almost impossible to understand large parts of the Old Testament without knowledge of the historical context and geographical setting. This knowledge was once widespread, but many Christians now know little or nothing of biblical history. |
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Post by civic on Jun 13, 2023 7:31:45 GMT -8
Yes that’s very true and it’s getting worse by the year, day. It wasn’t always like this. The church used to have a much more balanced diet. So how did we get here? Consider these reasons: Liberalism. The sustained attack on the Old Testament by liberal scholars has shaken many Christians’ confidence in this part of the Bible. Ignorance. It is almost impossible to understand large parts of the Old Testament without knowledge of the historical context and geographical setting. This knowledge was once widespread, but many Christians now know little or nothing of biblical history. Yes the erosion and decay has been happening since the 50's. |
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Post by Theophilus on Jun 13, 2023 7:41:01 GMT -8
It wasn’t always like this. The church used to have a much more balanced diet. So how did we get here? Consider these reasons: Liberalism. The sustained attack on the Old Testament by liberal scholars has shaken many Christians’ confidence in this part of the Bible. Ignorance. It is almost impossible to understand large parts of the Old Testament without knowledge of the historical context and geographical setting. This knowledge was once widespread, but many Christians now know little or nothing of biblical history. Yes the erosion and decay has been happening since the 50's. Right, when they took payer out of our schools in '62 was a big setback. |
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Post by 360watt on Jun 13, 2023 16:56:44 GMT -8
Yes the erosion and decay has been happening since the 50's. Right, when they took payer out of our schools in '62 was a big setback. I saw there is a law passed that makes it illegal to disagree with your child choosing their own gender in the US. Here it is... Illegal to be Christian ..it's bound to come to here in New Zealand too |
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Post by Theophilus on Jun 14, 2023 12:03:28 GMT -8
Right, when they took payer out of our schools in '62 was a big setback. I saw there is a law passed that makes it illegal to disagree with your child choosing their own gender in the US. Here it is... Illegal to be Christian ..it's bound to come to here in New Zealand too Yes, that's how communism/ socialism works. The state becomes God. The good news is this isn't our real home. Jesus has prepared a much better place than this for us. |
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