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Post by civic on May 30, 2023 6:12:26 GMT -8
2 Peter 1:1
τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
2 Peter 1:11
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
2 Peter 1:1
our God and Savior, Jesus Christ
2 Peter 1:11
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
We have a second person possessive pronoun "Our" modifying two different improper nouns (God and Savior) joined by "and" (Kia) to identify a proper noun (Jesus) [Granville/Sharp's]. Therefore, by basic grammar, we are identifying Jesus as God and Savior. We don't even have to know the Greek to see that Jesus is being called both God and Savior/ Lord and Savior in Peters 2nd Epistle. 2 Peter 2:20 and 2 Peter 3:18 also have the same Greek construction as 1:1 and 1:11.
But for those interested in the Greek here is the comparison of 1:1 and 1:11.
τοῦ is the same.
ἡμῶν is the same.
καὶ is the same.
Σωτῆρος is the same.
Ἰησοῦ is the same.
Χριστοῦ· is the same.
And all in the same order.
The only difference is the noun "Θεοῦ" in v.1, while "Κυρίου" is in v.11.
So if he wants to deny that Jesus is "God" ("theou") in v.1, then he has to deny that Jesus is "Lord" ("kuriou") in v.11. Otherwise he's being inconsistent and dishonest with the text. To say otherwise is proof positive one has an agenda when reading scripture and using eisegesis rather than exegesis of the biblical text in question.
Peter refers to Christ as our God and Saviour- Lord and Saviour just the same as Paul in Titus 2:13 and it’s the same Greek construction in Titus 2:13 as it is in 2 Peter 1:1 and 1:11.
And the One who is coming / appearing in the NT is always the Son and NEVER the Father.
This is a trinitarian slam dunk !
epiphanea
2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
1 Timothy 6:14
14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 Timothy 1:10
10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus,
2 Timothy 4:1
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2 Timothy 4:8
8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
Titus 2:13
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
Titus 2:13
Of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ tou megalou Theou kai sooteeros Ieesou Christou. This is the necessary meaning of the one article with Theou and sooteeros just as in 2 Peter 1:1,11. See Robertson, Grammar, p. 786. Westcott and Hort read Christou Ieesou.
(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright © 1985 by Broadman Press.)
Parousia
Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Matthew 24:27
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:37
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:39
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Thessalonians 2:19
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
1 Thessalonians 3:13
13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 2:1
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
James 5:7
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.
James 5:8
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
2 Peter 1:16
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2 Peter 3:4
4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
1 John 2:28-29
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
And 2 Thessalonians 2:8 links both His appearing / coming as the same event of Christ not the Father. Both epiphenea and parousia together below in the same verse.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
1 Peter 1:7
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Case closed for the Unitarian camp !
This is where Unitarians really fail badly because they are so consumed with disproving the Deity of Christ that they fail with a well rounded theology which would benefit them greatly . You see how all biblical doctrines fit together seamlessly and especially in this case prove beyond all doubt that the one and only Person Paul was referring to in Titus 2:13 as God was Jesus and not the Father for He is never once in Scripture referred to as the One who is Coming/ Appearing .
hope this helps !!!
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Post by Obadiah on May 30, 2023 7:17:30 GMT -8
Right.
SAVIOR — a person who rescues others from evil, danger, or destruction. The Old Testament viewed God Himself as the Savior: “There is no other God besides Me, a just God and a Savior” (Is. 45:21). Because God is the source of salvation, He sent human deliverers to rescue His people, Israel (Ps. 106:21; Is. 43:3, 11). This word was also used to describe the judges of Israel, those “saviors” or “deliverers” who rescued God’s people from oppression by their enemies (Judg. 3:9, 15).
In the New Testament the word for “savior” describes both God the Father (1 Tim. 1:1; Jude 25) and Jesus Christ the Son (Acts 5:31; Phil. 3:20). The apostles rejoiced that in Christ, God had become the “Savior of all men” (1 Tim. 4:10). He was the Savior of Gentiles as well as Jews. As Christians, we are exhorted to “grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Pet. 3:18).
Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Dictionary
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Post by civic on May 30, 2023 15:54:30 GMT -8
Right. SAVIOR — a person who rescues others from evil, danger, or destruction. The Old Testament viewed God Himself as the Savior: “There is no other God besides Me, a just God and a Savior” (Is. 45:21). Because God is the source of salvation, He sent human deliverers to rescue His people, Israel (Ps. 106:21; Is. 43:3, 11). This word was also used to describe the judges of Israel, those “saviors” or “deliverers” who rescued God’s people from oppression by their enemies (Judg. 3:9, 15). In the New Testament the word for “savior” describes both God the Father (1 Tim. 1:1; Jude 25) and Jesus Christ the Son (Acts 5:31; Phil. 3:20). The apostles rejoiced that in Christ, God had become the “Savior of all men” (1 Tim. 4:10). He was the Savior of Gentiles as well as Jews. As Christians, we are exhorted to “grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Pet. 3:18). Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Dictionary I have Nelsons hardbound cover in my book shelf from the 80's.  |
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Post by Obadiah on May 30, 2023 16:35:31 GMT -8
Right. SAVIOR — a person who rescues others from evil, danger, or destruction. The Old Testament viewed God Himself as the Savior: “There is no other God besides Me, a just God and a Savior” (Is. 45:21). Because God is the source of salvation, He sent human deliverers to rescue His people, Israel (Ps. 106:21; Is. 43:3, 11). This word was also used to describe the judges of Israel, those “saviors” or “deliverers” who rescued God’s people from oppression by their enemies (Judg. 3:9, 15). In the New Testament the word for “savior” describes both God the Father (1 Tim. 1:1; Jude 25) and Jesus Christ the Son (Acts 5:31; Phil. 3:20). The apostles rejoiced that in Christ, God had become the “Savior of all men” (1 Tim. 4:10). He was the Savior of Gentiles as well as Jews. As Christians, we are exhorted to “grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Pet. 3:18). Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Dictionary I have Nelsons hardbound cover in my book shelf from the 80's. Yes, we both share a love for books. I call them "Word Books"... books that make us think about "The Word". So does the Holy Spirit and they all 3 can work together. As we know it's living Word, that can come alive in our hearts and minds. The New Testament speaks about accurately handling the Word of truth, of being a workman who is approved in the way that you handle the Word. 2 Timothy 2:15 There are so many things that the Lord is trying to tell us in His Word. The Book of Revelation describes Christ as a mighty conqueror, “and His name is called The Word of God.” Revelation 19:13 These passages of Scripture are speaking about the Living Word. Jesus said, “My words are spirit and they are life”. John 6:63 |
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Post by michaiah on May 31, 2023 2:01:41 GMT -8
It just seems so odd, that if Jesus were in fact God, that none of the inspired writers just came out and write down “Jesus is God”.
Or, that God himself wouldn’t inspire them to explain the “trinity” in terms that we hear and read about in unbiblical writings today.
Very odd.
Especially if it’s as essential to salvation as many claim it is…
Odd odd odd.
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Post by civic on May 31, 2023 4:45:55 GMT -8
It just seems so odd, that if Jesus were in fact God, that none of the inspired writers just came out and write down “Jesus is God”. Or, that God himself wouldn’t inspire them to explain the “trinity” in terms that we hear and read about in unbiblical writings today. Very odd. Especially if it’s as essential to salvation as many claim it is… Odd odd odd. Where does it say that the " Father is God " that should be just as easy right ? |
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Post by michaiah on May 31, 2023 5:58:38 GMT -8
Well, good point.
But the phrase “God our Father” is frequently found in scripture.
The phrase “God the son” doesn’t appear in scripture anywhere.
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Post by Obadiah on May 31, 2023 6:04:26 GMT -8
It just seems so odd, that if Jesus were in fact God, that none of the inspired writers just came out and write down “Jesus is God”. Or, that God himself wouldn’t inspire them to explain the “trinity” in terms that we hear and read about in unbiblical writings today. Very odd. Especially if it’s as essential to salvation as many claim it is… Odd odd odd. Au Contraire... Without the doctrine of the Trinity, we were left with wat too many irresolvable contradictions. But there is no contradiction as long as you understand and accept the multi-personal nature of God. The doctrine of the Trinity is foundational to the Christian faith. It is crucial for properly understanding what God is like, how He relates to us, and how we should relate to Him. The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: 1. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, 2. each Person is fully God, 3. there is only one God. |
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Post by civic on May 31, 2023 6:11:07 GMT -8
Well, good point. But the phrase “God our Father” is frequently found in scripture. The phrase “God the son” doesn’t appear in scripture anywhere. Yet there are plenty of verses that say Christ is our God and Thomas saying Christ is His God. And we know that His disciples prayed to Christ which is forbidden for a Jew to pray to anyone/anything who is not God for that would be idolatry and breaking the commandment to have no other gods before Me says the Lord. Also there are in another thread where I posted 160 different points where we see that Christ has the exact same attributes, nature, character,qualities, actions, words and deeds as God the Father does. Its why Jesus could say to the disciples " why do you ask to see the Father " ? He who has seen Me has seen the Father, the Father and I are one. The Pharisees tried stoning Him multiple times for claiming to be God for they believed He was just a man. He said I only say and do what I see the Father saying and doing. His words and deeds were the same as Gods words and deeds. No man could ever say and do the things Jesus said and did if He were not God.
Its why C.S. Lewis came to the right conclusion about Jesus claims.
1- He is a liar 2- He is a lunatic, a mad man who is insane 3- He is Lord/God
hope this helps !!!
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Post by michaiah on May 31, 2023 6:26:10 GMT -8
Obadiah said
I see no contradictions as a non trinitarian.
Obadiah said
Jesus Christ is the foundation.
Trinitarianism is another foundation.
“…other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 3:11)
Obadiah said
I understand these things perfectly without the trinity doctrine.
Obadiah said
You then proceeded to give the standard trinitarian message here. If it meant those things you mentioned, they’d be found in scripture.
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Post by michaiah on May 31, 2023 6:49:09 GMT -8
@civic
civic said:
Those verses are not directly saying that Jesus is God without a reasonable doubt. There are other reasonable conclusions that can be made other than to conclude that those scriptures are saying that Jesus is God.
The Thomas exclamation is also weak evidence. Many people say “Oh my God!” as a reaction to unusual events.
civic said:
Not so regarding the Messiah.
He was sinless though he was tempted like we are. But God cannot be tempted.
“…for God cannot be tempted…” (James 1:13)
But in regards to Jesus:
“…was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” (Hebrews 4:15)
civic said:
We as a Christian should also posses these things:
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do…” (John 14:12)
civic said:
We are one with God and Christ as well:
“That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us…” (John 17:21)
But that doesn’t make us God, does it…
civic said:
You are wrong.
It was because of this:
“Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?” (John 10:36)
civic said:
Let’s stick to what the scriptures say please.
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Post by Obadiah on May 31, 2023 7:11:53 GMT -8
Obadiah said I see no contradictions as a non trinitarian. Obadiah said Jesus Christ is the foundation. Trinitarianism is another foundation. “…other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 3:11) Obadiah said I understand these things perfectly without the trinity doctrine. Obadiah said You then proceeded to give the standard trinitarian message here. If it meant those things you mentioned, they’d be found in scripture. If you begin by defining God in such a way that the Trinity is not possible, then it is no big surprise if you conclude that the Trinity is not possible! You are returning full circle to where you first began. "The doctrine of the Trinity is foundational to the Christian faith." John emphasizes in this context that there are “three that bear record in heaven” 1 John 5:7 KJV. That threefold testimony affirms the trinitarian foundation of the Christian faith. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. |
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Ozias
Full Member
Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you
Posts: 100
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Post by Ozias on May 31, 2023 7:15:49 GMT -8
The Holy Trinity is not a product of pagan religions or Greek philosophies, but of Holy Scripture. There is only one, true, living, eternal, infinite, triune Being who is God by nature and Maker of heaven and earth: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
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Ozias
Full Member
Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you
Posts: 100
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Post by Ozias on May 31, 2023 8:06:44 GMT -8
I am convinced that the doctrine of the Trinity is necessitated by the assumptions and practices of the Christian faith, whether we know it or not.
Try answering the following questions without concluding that the Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity:
1. Who raised Jesus from the dead? The Father (Romans 6:4)? The Son (John 2:19-21; 10:17,18)? The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11)? Or God (Acts 3:26; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; Hebrews 13:20; Acts 13:30; 17:31)?
2. Who does the Bible say is God? The Father (Ephesians 4:6)? The Son (Titus 2:13; John 1:1; 20:28)? The Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3,4)? Or God (Deuteronomy 4:35; Isaiah 45:18)?
3. Who created the world? The Father (Ephesians 3:9-14; 4:6)? The Son (Colossians 1:16,17; John 1:1-3)? The Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2; Psalm 104:30)? Or God (Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 11:3)?
4. Who saves and regenerates man? The Father (1 Peter 1:3)? The Son (John 5:21, 4:14)? The Holy Spirit (John 3:6, Titus 3:5)? Or God (1 John 3:9)?
5. Who justifies man? The Father (Jeremiah 23:6, cf. 2 Corinthians 5:19)? The Son (Romans 5:9; 10:4; 2 Corinthians 5:19,21)? The Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:11; Galatians 5:5)? Or God (Romans 4:6; 9:33)?
6. Who sanctifies man? The Father (Jude 1)? The Son (Titus 2:14)? The Holy Spirit (1 Peter 1:2)? Or God (Exodus 31:13)?
7. Who propitiated God’s just anger against man for his sins? The Father (1 John 4:14; John 3:16; 17:5; 18:11)? The Son (Matthew 26:28; John 1:29; 1 John 2:2)? The Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14)? Or God (2 Corinthians 5:19,21; Acts 20:28; 1 John 4:10)?
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Post by michaiah on May 31, 2023 8:40:03 GMT -8
OziasI suppose if I believed certain unbiblical things I could search the scriptures to support them. But what we believe must be clear and without a doubt mentioned in scripture. And we must speak like those things in scripture. I accept “the word was God”, because it’s scriptural. I do not accept Jesus is God because no direct connection with his name is made with the title “God”. Neither do any of the inspired writers speak of the trinity like folks as yourself do. That’s the plain fact. You can read into those verses what you like, but it’s not wise to go beyond what they say.
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