Ozias
Full Member
Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you
Posts: 100
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Post by Ozias on May 31, 2023 9:33:03 GMT -8
michaiah No problem, it's great to see some discussion going on here. There is a single God. And yet there is a plurality of Persons in the divine essence. You can see this on almost the first page of your Bible. Genesis 1:26–27 reads: ‘Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness … So God created man in His own image.’ The words I have put in italics show that God, who is one, speaks as more than one. The verses emphasize both the unity and the plurality of God. Two or three pages later on we read, ‘Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us …” ’ (Genesis 3:22); and in chapter 11:5–7 we read, ‘But the Lord came down … And the Lord said … let Us go down …’ Only one God is to be found in all these passages. And yet he speaks in the plural! There is more than one who is God. So it was that centuries later Isaiah heard Jehovah saying, ‘Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?’ (Isaiah 6:8). Just as extraordinary are those Old Testament passages which refer to ‘the Angel of the Lord’. It is quite plain that this person is God himself. It is equally plain that he is to be distinguished from God. The word ‘angel’ means ‘messenger’ or ‘one sent’, and the phrase ‘the Angel of the Lord’ therefore means ‘the one sent by Jehovah’. Genesis 16:7–13 records how Hagar, who had run away from Abram and Sarai, was commanded by ‘the Angel of the Lord’ to return. It is then made clear that it was the Lord himself who was speaking to her, and she called the place where she met him ‘the well of the One who lives and sees me’. The one who was sent by God was God himself!
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Post by Theophilus on May 31, 2023 9:59:04 GMT -8
This looks like an interesting thread. Let's do it like the TV show Dragnet Where's Sergeant Friday said "Just the facts, Ma'am".
Like the fact that the Scriptures are full of evidence that Jesus Christ is God. It is a truth that no one need doubt. Abraham knew the truth that God would present Himself as the sacrifice."Jehovah-Jireh," which means "The Lord Will Provide" (Genesis 22:14).And he did present Himself on Calvary.
Of all the men and women who have walked this earth, only of Jesus Christ can it be said that his life did not begin when he was born. We are talking Pre-existence here. He existed before that time. He was in the beginning, and all things were made by him (John 1:1–3; Colossians 1:15–18). He was rich before he became poor (2 Corinthians 8:9). ‘I came forth from the Father’, he said, ‘and have come into the world’ (John 16:28). He described himself as ‘He who came down from heaven’ (John 3:13), and asked his hearers what they would think if they saw him ‘ascend where He was before’ (John 6:62).
He clearly meant us to understand that he is God, who has come among us as a Man. What else could he have meant when he prayed in the presence of his disciples, ‘And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was’ (John 17:5)? His claims to be God were well understood by the Jews, for they took up stones to stone him when they heard him say, ‘Before Abraham was, I am’ (John 8:58). If he had said, ‘Before Abraham was, I was’, it would not have been so bad. They could have been charitable, and written him off as some kind of crank. But he did not say that. He said, ‘I am.’ He was claiming a continued ever-present existence from before Abraham’s time to that moment. And had not God described himself as ‘I am’? What else could Jesus be doing, but laying claim to deity?
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Post by michaiah on May 31, 2023 10:59:21 GMT -8
TheophilusNo, the scriptures has some ALLUSIONS at best. And It’s very doubtful since no inspired writer stresses its importance nor explains it with the scriptures as directly as you have. “Clearly”? Come now. If he wanted to be clear, he would’ve said, “I AM GOD”. The mystery of Christ will be made clear in the end. Right now, in this life, we are to believe that Jesus is the Christ. Salvation comes only by that CLEAR fact.
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Post by civic on May 31, 2023 11:02:30 GMT -8
Theophilus No, the scriptures has some ALLUSIONS at best. And It’s very doubtful since no inspired writer stresses its importance nor explains it with the scriptures as directly as you have. “Clearly”? Come now. If he wanted to be clear, he would’ve said, “I AM GOD”. The mystery of Christ will be made clear in the end. Right now, in this life, we are to believe that Jesus is the Christ. Salvation comes only by that CLEAR fact. And nowhere does the Father say : I am God |
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Post by michaiah on May 31, 2023 11:15:17 GMT -8
civic said
He did.
Through Peter by inspiration:
“For [Jesus] received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (2 Peter 1:17)
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Post by civic on May 31, 2023 11:31:29 GMT -8
civic said He did. Through Peter by inspiration: “For [Jesus] received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (2 Peter 1:17) I gave you the exact same requirement for the Father as you asked for the Son. The Father not once said : I Am God. So by your own logic and reasoning that would make the Father not God just the same as you have made the Son not God. You cannot have it both ways my friend  |
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Post by michaiah on May 31, 2023 11:41:28 GMT -8
civic said He did. Through Peter by inspiration: “For [Jesus] received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (2 Peter 1:17) I gave you the exact same requirement for the Father as you asked for the Son. The Father not once said : I Am God. So by your own logic and reasoning that would make the Father not God just the same as you have made the Son not God. You cannot have it both ways my friend So you would deny that God inspired Peter to write this down: “…God the Father…” (2 Peter 1:17) ? |
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Post by civic on May 31, 2023 11:44:38 GMT -8
I gave you the exact same requirement for the Father as you asked for the Son. The Father not once said : I Am God. So by your own logic and reasoning that would make the Father not God just the same as you have made the Son not God. You cannot have it both ways my friend So you would deny that God inspired Peter to write this down: “…God the Father…” (2 Peter 1:17) That is not the Father saying : I am God. That’s Peter calling the Father God just like he calls the Son God. hope this helps !!! |
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Post by michaiah on May 31, 2023 11:57:48 GMT -8
So you would deny that God inspired Peter to write this down: “…God the Father…” (2 Peter 1:17) That is not the Father saying : I am God. That’s Peter calling the Father God just like he calls the Son God. hope this helps !!! So you are suggesting that Peter wasn’t inspired by God when he wrote his letters, is that what you’re saying? That’s a very dangerous place to go to defend a doctrine. |
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Post by civic on May 31, 2023 13:59:03 GMT -8
That is not the Father saying : I am God. That’s Peter calling the Father God just like he calls the Son God. hope this helps !!! So you are suggesting that Peter wasn’t inspired by God when he wrote his letters, is that what you’re saying? That’s a very dangerous place to go to defend a doctrine. No that is not what I’m saying. I’m saying Peter calls both the Father and the Son God. |
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Post by michaiah on May 31, 2023 14:53:43 GMT -8
So you are suggesting that Peter wasn’t inspired by God when he wrote his letters, is that what you’re saying? That’s a very dangerous place to go to defend a doctrine. No that is not what I’m saying. I’m saying Peter calls both the Father and the Son God. And that’s because God inspired him to do so. You know better. You’re just on defense. |
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Post by Redeemed on May 31, 2023 15:04:21 GMT -8
What we have here is a failure to communicate. Let's get this straightened out.
If the Son is divine in the same way as the Father, then we would expect to find that the authors of the Old Testament give divine names, titles, and attributes to the Son. We also expect to find that He is described as doing divine works and that He is the object of divine worship. Thus, the deity of the Son will be based on exactly the same kind of evidence that demonstrates the deity of the Father. If we deny the validity of the evidence for the deity of the Son, then, we must logically denied the validity of the evidence for the deity of the Father. What is valid for the One is equally valid for the Other.
I point this out because Unitarians will accept the validity of such evidence as divine names and titles only when such things are used to prove the deity of the Father. But, when the exact same evidence is used to prove the deity of the Son, they will claim that it is not acceptable. The inconsistency of the Unitarians on this point is indicative of a lack of willingness to let the evidence lead you where it will.
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Post by civic on May 31, 2023 15:25:49 GMT -8
No that is not what I’m saying. I’m saying Peter calls both the Father and the Son God. And that’s because God inspired him to do so. You know better. You’re just on defense. I agree Gods word is inspired. |
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Post by Bronson on Jun 7, 2023 15:07:26 GMT -8
Titus 2:13 Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One),
Jesus is not just our Savior and the Christ, but He is also “our great God.” Some prefer to understand “our great God” to refer to the Father. If this is the case, Jesus is identified as both the glory of the Father and as our Savior Jesus Christ.
“God and Savior” ties these two titles together as one and the same. The text literally reads “the glory of the great God and Savior of us Jesus Christ.” The glory that appears, then, is Him who is God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
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Post by dwight92070 on Jun 29, 2023 9:31:04 GMT -8
I think the reason that the Bible does not say directly, "Jesus is God", is pretty much the same as the reason Jesus did not go around proclaiming, "I am the Messiah". Because God wants us to look at the evidence and then, in faith, say, "Jesus is God". In fact, on several occasions He told people to NOT report either the miracle He did, or Who He was. He did tell the Samaritan woman at the well, apparently because He wanted her to report that to her Samaritan community, so that Jesus could be seen and heard by them, and be saved. He also answered Caiaphas the high priest's direct demand: "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." Jesus'answer: "(It is as) you said." Again, indirect, but basically He said "Yes." Then He makes a statement, that if you accept it by faith, is saying that He is God. "Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." No man could make a statement like that. Even Caiaphas knew that and accused Jesus of blasphemy, or basically claiming to be God.
By the way, to confess that He was the Christ IS, as I understand scripture, confessing to be God. Remember the angel who spoke to the shepherds at Jesus' birth? He said, "For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior (only God was their Savior), Who is Christ (their Messiah) the Lord (only God was their Lord). The Jews knew God as The Lord. Yes, they called certain men "lord", but only God was THE LORD. And the angel said that Jesus was THE LORD. Even Elizabeth, prophesied that the baby in Mary's womb was "my Lord". That's the Holy Spirit speaking through her telling us that Jesus, the Christ, the Messiah was THE LORD. So we have an angel of the Lord (God) and the Holy Spirit testifying that Jesus is ALSO THE LORD. So now we have God as Lord and Jesus as Lord. Are there two Lords? No they are both LORD and GOD.
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