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Post by 360watt on Jul 17, 2023 16:56:15 GMT -8
Using persons is the main way we describe the Trinity.
In my mind though..that looks like 'seperate beings '
I know the Father Son and Holy Spirit are DISTINCT.. but actually seperate and to me..that's Polytheism.
So I am not a fan of the word persons and prefer persona or expression/substance.
The problem with this I know is that when Jesus talks with the Father...that's not just an essence taking to an essence.. but the word 'persons' doesnt really cut it for me.
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Post by charismaticlady on Jul 17, 2023 17:16:55 GMT -8
Using persons is the main way we describe the Trinity. In my mind though..that looks like 'seperate beings ' I know the Father Son and Holy Spirit are DISTINCT.. but actually seperate and to me..that's Polytheism. So I am not a fan of the word persons and prefer persona or expression/substance. The problem with this I know is that when Jesus talks with the Father...that's not just an essence taking to an essence.. but the word 'persons' doesnt really cut it for me. The church Father Tertullian in the 200's AD is called the Father of the Trinity. In other words, he created the word, Trinity. But he uses the word, substances, not persons.
Look at yourself. You are created in the image of God. 1 Thes. 5:23 describes you. (spirit, soul and body). You are not three persons. You are one human being.
Now concerning sin, of those three parts of you, your spirit and soul - mind and conscience - make up your nature. When you were in the flesh Romans 7:5-6, you had a sin nature. But when we are born again of the Spirit our spirit and soul are crucified and resurrected and we are freed from sin, Romans 6:5-22. The only part left is our body. But it doesn't make us sin. It is like a puppet that is controlled by our mind and conscience. It will die still and be recreated after we die.
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Post by 360watt on Jul 17, 2023 23:40:30 GMT -8
Using persons is the main way we describe the Trinity. In my mind though..that looks like 'seperate beings ' I know the Father Son and Holy Spirit are DISTINCT.. but actually seperate and to me..that's Polytheism. So I am not a fan of the word persons and prefer persona or expression/substance. The problem with this I know is that when Jesus talks with the Father...that's not just an essence taking to an essence.. but the word 'persons' doesnt really cut it for me. The church Father Tertullian in the 200's AD is called the Father of the Trinity. In other words, he created the word, Trinity. But he uses the word, substances, not persons.
Look at yourself. You are created in the image of God. 1 Thes. 5:23 describes you. (spirit, soul and body). You are not three persons. You are one human being.
Now concerning sin, of those three parts of you, your spirit and soul - mind and conscience - make up your nature. When you were in the flesh Romans 7:5-6, you had a sin nature. But when we are born again of the Spirit our spirit and soul are crucified and resurrected and we are freed from sin, Romans 6:5-22. The only part left is our body. But it doesn't make us sin. It is like a puppet that is controlled by our mind and conscience. It will die still and be recreated after we die.
Thank you for the post. I didn't realise Tertullian used substances.. not persons. That's interesting. I meant to say with my opening post that Jesus talking to the Father isn't just a 'substance talking to a substance' I use the terms essence, substance and expression for the Trinity.. but got them mixed up in the post  |
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Post by dizerner2 on Jul 18, 2023 1:25:15 GMT -8
Nothing wrong with persons, since are made in God's image.
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Post by civic on Jul 18, 2023 4:40:27 GMT -8
Using persons is the main way we describe the Trinity. In my mind though..that looks like 'seperate beings ' I know the Father Son and Holy Spirit are DISTINCT.. but actually seperate and to me..that's Polytheism. So I am not a fan of the word persons and prefer persona or expression/substance. The problem with this I know is that when Jesus talks with the Father...that's not just an essence taking to an essence.. but the word 'persons' doesnt really cut it for me. When we talk about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as being “Persons,” we do not mean they are human beings or that they are like mankind in any way. In our everyday language, though, that is how the word person is often used, so it is understandable that some confusion surrounds references to the three “Persons” of the Trinity. When we talk about God, we are using the word Person to show that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have personhood or personality. That is, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have intellect, emotion, and volition. Any being with rationality, emotion, and a will can be considered a person; thus, human beings are persons, but so are angelic beings and the Divine Being. The definition of person cannot include physicality for the simple reason that human beings do not cease to be persons after death. A dead person’s body is left behind to decay, but his true self—his personhood—lives on in either heaven or hell. When we speak of God existing in three Persons, we mean that God’s existence is comprised of three distinct centers of intellect, emotion, and will. Each Person of the Trinity had a unique role in creation and in the salvation of mankind. The Holy Spirit is unique and is not the Father or the Son (He proceeds from the Father and the Son, John 15:26). The Father and the Son are also unique (when Jesus prayed to the Father, He was not praying to Himself, Luke 23:34). Each is God, but each is a separate “Person.” Using the word person is one of the only ways our language has to describe this concept. All three Persons of the Trinity comprise the one, perfectly unified God. They share the same nature and essence, and they are all the same God, but each individual Person of the Trinity is distinct and unique. The fact that God exists in three Persons is important for several reasons. For instance, God is love (1 John 4:8). But, in eternity past, before God created any other being, could He have truly been love? That is, can love exist where there is no one to be loved? Because God exists in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons, love exists, too. Eternal love has been expressed eternally among the Persons of the Godhead. The Father, Son, and Spirit have always loved each other, and so love is eternal. Once we lay aside the notion that a “person” can only be a “human person,” we can more readily understand how God can correctly be said to exist in three “Persons.”got? hope this helps !!! |
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Post by charismaticlady on Jul 18, 2023 6:05:28 GMT -8
The church Father Tertullian in the 200's AD is called the Father of the Trinity. In other words, he created the word, Trinity. But he uses the word, substances, not persons.
Look at yourself. You are created in the image of God. 1 Thes. 5:23 describes you. (spirit, soul and body). You are not three persons. You are one human being.
Now concerning sin, of those three parts of you, your spirit and soul - mind and conscience - make up your nature. When you were in the flesh Romans 7:5-6, you had a sin nature. But when we are born again of the Spirit our spirit and soul are crucified and resurrected and we are freed from sin, Romans 6:5-22. The only part left is our body. But it doesn't make us sin. It is like a puppet that is controlled by our mind and conscience. It will die still and be recreated after we die.
Thank you for the post. I didn't realise Tertullian used substances.. not persons. That's interesting. I meant to say with my opening post that Jesus talking to the Father isn't just a 'substance talking to a substance' I use the terms essence, substance and expression for the Trinity.. but got them mixed up in the post Jesus embodied the Father and the Holy Spirit. Just as we who are born of God have the MIND of Christ, Jesus had the MIND of His Father. The mind is our spirit. Our conscience is where the Holy Spirit writes the laws for us to keep naturally. They are part of us.
Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
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Post by 360watt on Jul 18, 2023 11:23:47 GMT -8
Using persons is the main way we describe the Trinity. In my mind though..that looks like 'seperate beings ' I know the Father Son and Holy Spirit are DISTINCT.. but actually seperate and to me..that's Polytheism. So I am not a fan of the word persons and prefer persona or expression/substance. The problem with this I know is that when Jesus talks with the Father...that's not just an essence taking to an essence.. but the word 'persons' doesnt really cut it for me. When we talk about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as being “Persons,” we do not mean they are human beings or that they are like mankind in any way. In our everyday language, though, that is how the word person is often used, so it is understandable that some confusion surrounds references to the three “Persons” of the Trinity. When we talk about God, we are using the word Person to show that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have personhood or personality. That is, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have intellect, emotion, and volition. Any being with rationality, emotion, and a will can be considered a person; thus, human beings are persons, but so are angelic beings and the Divine Being. The definition of person cannot include physicality for the simple reason that human beings do not cease to be persons after death. A dead person’s body is left behind to decay, but his true self—his personhood—lives on in either heaven or hell. When we speak of God existing in three Persons, we mean that God’s existence is comprised of three distinct centers of intellect, emotion, and will. Each Person of the Trinity had a unique role in creation and in the salvation of mankind. The Holy Spirit is unique and is not the Father or the Son (He proceeds from the Father and the Son, John 15:26). The Father and the Son are also unique (when Jesus prayed to the Father, He was not praying to Himself, Luke 23:34). Each is God, but each is a separate “Person.” Using the word person is one of the only ways our language has to describe this concept. All three Persons of the Trinity comprise the one, perfectly unified God. They share the same nature and essence, and they are all the same God, but each individual Person of the Trinity is distinct and unique. The fact that God exists in three Persons is important for several reasons. For instance, God is love (1 John 4:8). But, in eternity past, before God created any other being, could He have truly been love? That is, can love exist where there is no one to be loved? Because God exists in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons, love exists, too. Eternal love has been expressed eternally among the Persons of the Godhead. The Father, Son, and Spirit have always loved each other, and so love is eternal. Once we lay aside the notion that a “person” can only be a “human person,” we can more readily understand how God can correctly be said to exist in three “Persons.”got? hope this helps !!! I have no issues calling Jesus 'the person of Jesus Christ.. so really 'persons' is ok for a term. The thing I'm getting at is not seperating them into seperate beings, because then God is some kind of non being in parentheses. Eg 'God' created man. But it was a actually the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. When God is the one being in three substances. Not in parentheses. |
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Post by civic on Jul 18, 2023 11:40:15 GMT -8
When we talk about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as being “Persons,” we do not mean they are human beings or that they are like mankind in any way. In our everyday language, though, that is how the word person is often used, so it is understandable that some confusion surrounds references to the three “Persons” of the Trinity. When we talk about God, we are using the word Person to show that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have personhood or personality. That is, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have intellect, emotion, and volition. Any being with rationality, emotion, and a will can be considered a person; thus, human beings are persons, but so are angelic beings and the Divine Being. The definition of person cannot include physicality for the simple reason that human beings do not cease to be persons after death. A dead person’s body is left behind to decay, but his true self—his personhood—lives on in either heaven or hell. When we speak of God existing in three Persons, we mean that God’s existence is comprised of three distinct centers of intellect, emotion, and will. Each Person of the Trinity had a unique role in creation and in the salvation of mankind. The Holy Spirit is unique and is not the Father or the Son (He proceeds from the Father and the Son, John 15:26). The Father and the Son are also unique (when Jesus prayed to the Father, He was not praying to Himself, Luke 23:34). Each is God, but each is a separate “Person.” Using the word person is one of the only ways our language has to describe this concept. All three Persons of the Trinity comprise the one, perfectly unified God. They share the same nature and essence, and they are all the same God, but each individual Person of the Trinity is distinct and unique. The fact that God exists in three Persons is important for several reasons. For instance, God is love (1 John 4:8). But, in eternity past, before God created any other being, could He have truly been love? That is, can love exist where there is no one to be loved? Because God exists in three co-equal, co-eternal Persons, love exists, too. Eternal love has been expressed eternally among the Persons of the Godhead. The Father, Son, and Spirit have always loved each other, and so love is eternal. Once we lay aside the notion that a “person” can only be a “human person,” we can more readily understand how God can correctly be said to exist in three “Persons.”got? hope this helps !!! I have no issues calling Jesus 'the person of Jesus Christ.. so really 'persons' is ok for a term. The thing I'm getting at is not seperating them into seperate beings, because then God is some kind of non being in parentheses. Eg 'God' created man. But it was a actually the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. When God is the one being in three substances. Not in parentheses. Ok I think I understand what you are saying my only concern is that it doesn’t go to far and error on the side of Modalism , Oneness. |
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Post by 360watt on Jul 18, 2023 14:17:16 GMT -8
I have no issues calling Jesus 'the person of Jesus Christ.. so really 'persons' is ok for a term. The thing I'm getting at is not seperating them into seperate beings, because then God is some kind of non being in parentheses. Eg 'God' created man. But it was a actually the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. When God is the one being in three substances. Not in parentheses. Ok I think I understand what you are saying my only concern is that it doesn’t go to far and error on the side of Modalism , Oneness. Yeah ..not modalism or oneness..He is all three at the same time ..each is distinct... Each is personal. Co-equal, co-eternal, co-existing. There is no point when any of the 3 weren't fully God. Jesus was something like 'self limiting' but was never lesser than the Father or not existing before birth. Uncreated So not sock puppets like modalism.. but not seperated . |
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Post by thelayman on Sept 23, 2023 12:37:41 GMT -8
Using persons is the main way we describe the Trinity. In my mind though..that looks like 'seperate beings ' That's because the word "person" can be a synonym for a "human being." But in "layman's terms," in theology, a person is a who, and a nature a "what." I know the Father Son and Holy Spirit are DISTINCT.. but actually seperate and to me..that's Polytheism.I don't know what you mean by "actually separate." They are not separate...they are one being...they are one existence. So I am not a fan of the word persons and prefer persona or expression/substance. The problem with this I know is that when Jesus talks with the Father...that's not just an essence taking to an essence.. but the word 'persons' doesnt really cut it for me. Well, persona is not a good word because it has its own meaning today which doesn't fit, it does not have the same meaning as it did when it was first used.
TheLayman
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Post by thelayman on Sept 23, 2023 17:02:00 GMT -8
Using persons is the main way we describe the Trinity. In my mind though..that looks like 'seperate beings ' I know the Father Son and Holy Spirit are DISTINCT.. but actually seperate and to me..that's Polytheism. So I am not a fan of the word persons and prefer persona or expression/substance. The problem with this I know is that when Jesus talks with the Father...that's not just an essence taking to an essence.. but the word 'persons' doesnt really cut it for me. Ill start this reply over...I was unable to edit correctly
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Post by thelayman on Sept 23, 2023 17:07:41 GMT -8
Using persons is the main way we describe the Trinity. In my mind though..that looks like 'seperate beings ' I know the Father Son and Holy Spirit are DISTINCT.. but actually seperate and to me..that's Polytheism. So I am not a fan of the word persons and prefer persona or expression/substance. The problem with this I know is that when Jesus talks with the Father...that's not just an essence taking to an essence.. but the word 'persons' doesnt really cut it for me. The church Father Tertullian in the 200's AD is called the Father of the Trinity. In other words, he created the word, Trinity. But he uses the word, substances, not persons.
Look at yourself. You are created in the image of God. 1 Thes. 5:23 describes you. (spirit, soul and body). You are not three persons. You are one human being.
Now concerning sin, of those three parts of you, your spirit and soul - mind and conscience - make up your nature. When you were in the flesh Romans 7:5-6, you had a sin nature. But when we are born again of the Spirit our spirit and soul are crucified and resurrected and we are freed from sin, Romans 6:5-22. The only part left is our body. But it doesn't make us sin. It is like a puppet that is controlled by our mind and conscience. It will die still and be recreated after we die.
Hello, I'm afraid that isn't accurate. Tertullian said, "una substantia tres personae," which is one substance and three persona, or even more accurately one substance, three persons. To have said "three substances" would have meant "three beings," i.e. polythiesm. |
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Post by civic on Sept 25, 2023 5:24:40 GMT -8
The church Father Tertullian in the 200's AD is called the Father of the Trinity. In other words, he created the word, Trinity. But he uses the word, substances, not persons.
Look at yourself. You are created in the image of God. 1 Thes. 5:23 describes you. (spirit, soul and body). You are not three persons. You are one human being.
Now concerning sin, of those three parts of you, your spirit and soul - mind and conscience - make up your nature. When you were in the flesh Romans 7:5-6, you had a sin nature. But when we are born again of the Spirit our spirit and soul are crucified and resurrected and we are freed from sin, Romans 6:5-22. The only part left is our body. But it doesn't make us sin. It is like a puppet that is controlled by our mind and conscience. It will die still and be recreated after we die.
Hello, I'm afraid that isn't accurate. Tertullian said, "una substantia tres personae," which is one substance and three persona, or even more accurately one substance, three persons. To have said "three substances" would have meant "three beings," i.e. polythiesm. Spot on brother. Maybe we can start this topic on the new forum and I can tag everyone there ? |
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