|
Post by watchman1 on Aug 14, 2022 22:24:52 GMT -8
Calvinist cessationists use 1 Corinthians 13:10 to teach that the supernatural spiritual gifts ceased when the "perfect" canon of Scripture has come. The whole cessationist doctrine is based on this one verse.
However, John Calvin, in his commentary on 1 Corinthians, says that the the perfect that is to come is connected with the death of the believer, or the second coming of Christ. He makes no mention at all of the canon of Scripture.
This means that Calvinists don't believe even what Calvin himself say about the perfect which is to come! This means that Calvin was not a cessationist, and explained the decline of the spiritual gifts as the fault of the church itself as it turned apostate after the 4th Century.
|
|
|
Post by rickstudies on Aug 14, 2022 23:43:14 GMT -8
Calvinist cessationists use 1 Corinthians 13:10 to teach that the supernatural spiritual gifts ceased when the "perfect" canon of Scripture has come. The whole cessationist doctrine is based on this one verse. However, John Calvin, in his commentary on 1 Corinthians, says that the the perfect that is to come is connected with the death of the believer, or the second coming of Christ. He makes no mention at all of the canon of Scripture. This means that Calvinists don't believe even what Calvin himself say about the perfect which is to come! This means that Calvin was not a cessationist, and explained the decline of the spiritual gifts as the fault of the church itself as it turned apostate after the 4th Century. There are Pentecostal and Charismatic Calvinists so I dont think it is dependant on issues regarding the Holy Spirit. I have always found a notable lack of interest in Holy Spirit issues among them.
|
|
|
Post by makesends on Aug 15, 2022 4:50:18 GMT -8
Calvinist cessationists use 1 Corinthians 13:10 to teach that the supernatural spiritual gifts ceased when the "perfect" canon of Scripture has come. The whole cessationist doctrine is based on this one verse. However, John Calvin, in his commentary on 1 Corinthians, says that the the perfect that is to come is connected with the death of the believer, or the second coming of Christ. He makes no mention at all of the canon of Scripture. This means that Calvinists don't believe even what Calvin himself say about the perfect which is to come! This means that Calvin was not a cessationist, and explained the decline of the spiritual gifts as the fault of the church itself as it turned apostate after the 4th Century. There are Pentecostal and Charismatic Calvinists so I dont think it is dependant on issues regarding the Holy Spirit. I have always found a notable lack of interest in Holy Spirit issues among them. What are you referring to by "Holy Spirit issues" here —what Watchman calls the 'supernatural spiritual gifts'? If that is not what you are referring to, the whole Calvinist view of Gospel and Regeneration and subsequent growth is absolutely dependent on the Spirit of God; therefore it is not 'a notable lack of Holy Spirit issues' that identifies Calvinists. Or is the "them", when you say "a notable lack of interest in Holy Spirit issues among them", someone else —not Calvinists?
|
|
|
Post by rickstudies on Aug 15, 2022 5:46:00 GMT -8
There are Pentecostal and Charismatic Calvinists so I dont think it is dependant on issues regarding the Holy Spirit. I have always found a notable lack of interest in Holy Spirit issues among them. What are you referring to by "Holy Spirit issues" here —what Watchman calls the 'supernatural spiritual gifts'? If that is not what you are referring to, the whole Calvinist view of Gospel and Regeneration and subsequent growth is absolutely dependent on the Spirit of God; therefore it is not 'a notable lack of Holy Spirit issues' that identifies Calvinists. Or is the "them", when you say "a notable lack of interest in Holy Spirit issues among them", someone else —not Calvinists? Sorry, my time for debating with Calvinists over Calvinism is over with. In discussion of issues with Calvinists I found them to be primarily interested in discussing TULIP and predestination and less interested in discussing scriptures that address the Holy Spirit. Consequently a lot of people are unaware that quite a few Pentecostals and Charismatics are Calvinist in their doctrine.
|
|
|
Post by charlie24 on Aug 15, 2022 6:47:42 GMT -8
Calvinist cessationists use 1 Corinthians 13:10 to teach that the supernatural spiritual gifts ceased when the "perfect" canon of Scripture has come. The whole cessationist doctrine is based on this one verse. However, John Calvin, in his commentary on 1 Corinthians, says that the the perfect that is to come is connected with the death of the believer, or the second coming of Christ. He makes no mention at all of the canon of Scripture. This means that Calvinists don't believe even what Calvin himself say about the perfect which is to come! This means that Calvin was not a cessationist, and explained the decline of the spiritual gifts as the fault of the church itself as it turned apostate after the 4th Century. The Pentecostals that I know believe "when that which is perfect is come" is the resurrection when we will be made perfect. The Baptists I know say it is the completed canon of scripture. If you read the context of that scripture it seems to me Paul is speaking of the resurrection. I remain neutral on the issue. As far as Calvinists, I think we all have a little of that in our belief. I'm on board with man being totally depraved, but that is as far as I can go with TULIP.
|
|
|
Post by watchman1 on Aug 15, 2022 21:52:25 GMT -8
Here is my exegesis of 1 Corinthians 13:8-13:
The theme of the chapter is love, and the verses immediately before verse 8 is a list of the attributes of love. We see from verse 13 that in the present time, what remains is faith, hope, and love. Therefore from verse 8 to 13 we never leave the central theme of love. We must bear that in mind as we examine the following verses.
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. So we see here that love never ends. In other words it is eternal. Love existed long before the foundation of the world, because God is love. Love is the driving force of everything we do in Christ, and love will be the foundation when we arrive in glory after Jesus comes again. Paul now compares prophecy, tongues and knowledge with love. While love is eternal, prophecy, tongues and knowledge are temporary. Prophecy, tongues and knowledge are elements of the tools we have to use for the upbuilding of the body of Christ. Once the bride of Christ comes into perfection in glory, prophecy won’t be needed, because we will hear Jesus speaking to us directly as we have face to face fellowship with Him. Tongues won’t be needed, because all the different languages will be abolished and there will be just one language in heaven. The whole reason for the multiplicity of languages which was instituted at Babel was because of man’s pride. Knowledge won’t be needed, because Christ will give us all the information and knowledge that we will need for our life in eternity with Him
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
Our knowledge about the things of God is partial. If a pizza represents the total knowledge that exists about God and His ways, and we took a slice of it to represent what we currently know, then that slice will be fairly thin. The rest of the pizza will be all the remaining knowledge that we don’t have. Therefore our partial knowledge is the thin slice of the whole cake. It is the same with prophecy. Because we can’t know all of God’s mind on any issue, we can’t reflect the totality of it through the prophetic word. We can prophesy only what our limited minds can perceive from the light that we have been given. Therefore no prophecy is perfect. We don’t have the whole story. We have only glimpses of it, and our prophecies reflect just those glimpses.
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
But there will come a time when all will be perfect. We are not told expressly at this stage what that perfect actually is. Paul is saying merely that there will be a time when everything is perfect, and so the partial that we have at present will pass away. Referring to the previous verse, we already see that our knowledge and prophecy are partial, so in that time of perfection, those things will pass away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
Paul now uses an allusion to the transition between childhood and manhood in the way a person thinks and reasons. When childhood is left behind, the ways of childhood are also left behind with it. How Paul applies this to what he is saying about the permanency of love is made clearer by the following verses.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
Paul is talking about the present time. Because he is writing not only to the Corinthians but to all Christians everywhere, including us, it is true that we see the ways of God imperfectly, as through a mirror. The mirror that Paul is talking about is not the mirrors we have today where there is a near perfect image. The mirror he is talking about is one of polished metal in which the image is visible but nowhere near perfect. Another way of saying it would be looking at something through the wrong end of a telescope. The ‘but then’ is a direct reference to the time of perfection. In that time we will see clearly face to face. In this he is suggesting that the mirror is perfect, just like our modern ones where we see our own image clearly. Not only do we see ourselves as we really are, perfect and sinless in glory, but we will be able to perceive the ways of God perfectly as well. At this present time, that is, in the same Church Age where Paul is, we have only partial knowledge of God and His ways, but in the state of perfection we will have full knowledge. “Even as I have been fully known” is Paul’s confidence that Christ knows him fully, even though he has only partial knowledge of Christ.
13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
In the present time, during the Church Age, the foundations are faith, hope and love. Paul says that the greatest of these is love, because faith and hope belong to us in the Church Age, but when the perfection comes, we won’t need faith, because faith is the assurance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. But we will see Christ face to face, and so our evidence will be eyewitness evidence, therefore faith will be made redundant. Because our hope is that we will be resurrected to glory one day, once we are resurrected, hope will disappear because what we have hoped for will then be a reality. Therefore what will be left is love, because love is eternal. This is what Paul said right at the start. If we go on to verse 1 of 1 Corinthians 14, we see this. Note that there were no chapter and verse divisions in the original Greek text.
Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.
Therefore, in the light of love being eternal, Paul desires that we pursue love. Love is the foundation of everything we are and what we do. Love is the reason we desire spiritual gifts. Desiring spiritual gifts is not that we may appear more spiritual or closer to God than others. It is because we love others in the body of Christ and want to see them built up in their most holy faith. The Holy Spirit will give us the exact right gift that would help us express the love of Christ most effectively for others. He knows us perfectly and knows how each of us will be the most effective in loving others and building them up on their faith. Paul puts prophecy at the top of the list because this is the best way of encouraging others in a fellowship meeting and to express the love of Christ to them.
(I want to note that when Paul said to earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, he did not add, “Take full advantage of these gifts because you will have just 30 more years to use them before they cease”. We must be careful that we don’t go adding our own opinions to the inspired Word that Paul wrote.)
|
|
|
Post by alexander on Aug 22, 2022 8:41:04 GMT -8
Calvinist cessationists use 1 Corinthians 13:10 to teach that the supernatural spiritual gifts ceased when the "perfect" canon of Scripture has come. The whole cessationist doctrine is based on this one verse. However, John Calvin, in his commentary on 1 Corinthians, says that the the perfect that is to come is connected with the death of the believer, or the second coming of Christ. He makes no mention at all of the canon of Scripture. This means that Calvinists don't believe even what Calvin himself say about the perfect which is to come! This means that Calvin was not a cessationist, and explained the decline of the spiritual gifts as the fault of the church itself as it turned apostate after the 4th Century. The Pentecostals that I know believe "when that which is perfect is come" is the resurrection when we will be made perfect. The Baptists I know say it is the completed canon of scripture. If you read the context of that scripture it seems to me Paul is speaking of the resurrection. I remain neutral on the issue. As far as Calvinists, I think we all have a little of that in our belief. I'm on board with man being totally depraved, but that is as far as I can go with TULIP. One clue about what this perfect thing is, is the statement that when it happens we will know as we are known. Obviously, that means in Heaven.
|
|