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Post by civic on Nov 8, 2022 5:31:32 GMT -8
Would heaven be any fun if it didn't include peace of mind? "Fun?" I will suggest being raised incorruptible and immortal, having already been reconciled to our Creator is plenty of fun, and all we need, so concerns like "fun" and "peace of mind" seem a bit non sequitur. Why would heaven not be fun? Why would fun be a measure of heaven? Joy? How is "peace of mind" to be construed for the sake of this op? I have peace of mind now. Why would I think the peace I have would be lesser, different, or better in heaven? Peace is not always a lack of conflict. A person can have peace of mind and be quite ensconced in conflict. If Stephen's response is indicative of a peace of mind, then Stephen had such peace while the rocks were painfully tearing open his skin and breaking his bones. I had a rock break my skull once and I can testify it hurts  ! I say this because it may well be God has further purpose for us in heaven that involves battle and victory. If so, why would I not have peace of mind knowing the Guy who knows how to split atoms and speak things into and out of existence has my immortal back? I'd suggest these are not mutually exclusive conditions. I have peace now because God "waved the wand" of Calvary and that peace is maintained and sustained by my Word-fed walk with the Spirit. My belief is this will improve in all ways possible when I can see, know, and be known fully. Let a little more of the cat out of the bag. What's this inquiry about in more specific terms? It will be perfected there without the taint of sin we deal with now. love, joy, peace will be perfect in heaven or shall I say in the New Jerusalem, the Holy City in the new heavens and the new earth.  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2022 6:37:28 GMT -8
"Fun?" I will suggest being raised incorruptible and immortal, having already been reconciled to our Creator is plenty of fun, and all we need, so concerns like "fun" and "peace of mind" seem a bit non sequitur. Why would heaven not be fun? Why would fun be a measure of heaven? Joy? How is "peace of mind" to be construed for the sake of this op? I have peace of mind now. Why would I think the peace I have would be lesser, different, or better in heaven? Peace is not always a lack of conflict. A person can have peace of mind and be quite ensconced in conflict. If Stephen's response is indicative of a peace of mind, then Stephen had such peace while the rocks were painfully tearing open his skin and breaking his bones. I had a rock break my skull once and I can testify it hurts ! I say this because it may well be God has further purpose for us in heaven that involves battle and victory. If so, why would I not have peace of mind knowing the Guy who knows how to split atoms and speak things into and out of existence has my immortal back? I'd suggest these are not mutually exclusive conditions. I have peace now because God "waved the wand" of Calvary and that peace is maintained and sustained by my Word-fed walk with the Spirit. My belief is this will improve in all ways possible when I can see, know, and be known fully. Let a little more of the cat out of the bag. What's this inquiry about in more specific terms? It will be perfected there without the taint of sin we deal with now. love, joy, peace will be perfect in heaven or shall I say in the New Jerusalem, the Holy City in the new heavens and the new earth. lol. Do you mean fun will be perfected?  I sometimes wonder about the idea of " ages" and eternity. We know the rebellion of the angels who did not keep their proper abode took place sometime before Genesis 3 (sometime between Genesis 1:3 and 3:1) and we know there have been battles fought between good and evil in the heavenly realm that varied from skirmishes (fighting over the body of Moses) and larger wars (such as that of Rev. 12). The Abode Wars  were won by God (duh) and in the end the enemies of Christ will be cast into the fiery lake so destructive even death is destroyed, but is this only Volume 1 of a history with many tomes? I don't see us sitting around endlessly raising our hands in worship any more than I envision us twiddling our thumbs for all eternity. We were saved for work! When does work end in eternity? Is it possible to labor in Christ and still have peace? I think so. I think that's sort of the whole point. |
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Post by civic on Nov 8, 2022 6:42:35 GMT -8
It will be perfected there without the taint of sin we deal with now. love, joy, peace will be perfect in heaven or shall I say in the New Jerusalem, the Holy City in the new heavens and the new earth. lol. Do you mean fun will be perfected? I sometimes wonder about the idea of " ages" and eternity. We know the rebellion of the angels who did not keep their proper abode took place sometime before Genesis 3 (sometime between Genesis 1:3 and 3:1) and we know there have been battles fought between good and evil in the heavenly realm that varied from skirmishes (fighting over the body of Moses) and larger wars (such as that of Rev. 12). The Abode Wars were won by God (duh) and in the end the enemies of Christ will be cast into the fiery lake so destructive even death is destroyed, but is this only Volume 1 of a history with many tomes? I don't see us sitting around endlessly raising our hands in worship any more than I envision us twiddling our thumbs for all eternity. We were saved for work! When does work end in eternity? Is it possible to labor in Christ and still have peace? I think so. I think that's sort of the whole point. It looks like the tree will give its fruit year round so we will eat, not sure how waste will work lol. And the description of the city 1500 x 1500 sq miles. I'm hoping for some great golf courses and places to fish( catch and release- vegans again) rofl...........
Rev 22 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2022 9:22:35 GMT -8
lol. Do you mean fun will be perfected? I sometimes wonder about the idea of " ages" and eternity. We know the rebellion of the angels who did not keep their proper abode took place sometime before Genesis 3 (sometime between Genesis 1:3 and 3:1) and we know there have been battles fought between good and evil in the heavenly realm that varied from skirmishes (fighting over the body of Moses) and larger wars (such as that of Rev. 12). The Abode Wars were won by God (duh) and in the end the enemies of Christ will be cast into the fiery lake so destructive even death is destroyed, but is this only Volume 1 of a history with many tomes? I don't see us sitting around endlessly raising our hands in worship any more than I envision us twiddling our thumbs for all eternity. We were saved for work! When does work end in eternity? Is it possible to labor in Christ and still have peace? I think so. I think that's sort of the whole point. It looks like the tree will give its fruit year round so we will eat, not sure how waste will work lol. Oh! This is such a good observation! It's been my observation as a Christian the idealized versions of Eden have no room for "waste." Many assume there was absolutely NO death in Eden even though many was made mortal, and the laws of physics dictate any creature falling great distance under the influence of gravity meets with an unavoidable result at the sudden stop to the fall . All the creatures designed for the purpose of recycling existed from the beginning. They were all made during the same six days as everything else - but they served the good function with which they were designed and for which they were purposed. The command to subdue and rule was going to mean work and overcoming void and desolation always requires death of that which is ruled. Waste. The wasteland was going to be laid waste so that it would bring forth life, life like that found in Eden! In other words, when God created the earth He did so with plenty of wilderness already existing to be conquered. Are we to think that no longer exists in the vastness of the universe? No, I think the resurrection is simply another beginning. Eternity is a long "time" . Make mine waterfall-fed fishing holes, please. Maybe a few mountains to climb with great vistas. You can have my golf courses . How many times does God say, " No longer," literally? How many times does God say, " No longer," rhetorically? How many times does God say, " No longer," with specific or limiting context? I've long held to the belief NO death exists on the other side of the fiery lake (judgment) because death itself is annulled or destroyed, but that might be limited to the context of the human and angelic relationship to Christ. It's long been a point of contemplation for me to note the differences between the plural heavens of Genesis 1:1 and the later singular heaven of the New Testament and judgment. If I entertain quantum mechanics and the perspective of ten or eleven dimensions to creation (not the four we currently know of) then there is a huge creation of which we are ignorant. Will the rest be included in our knowing all things? If so, then I don't think we're done working on the other side of resurrection, and neither do I think that work will be all giggles and spit. It'll just be done from a disposition of power and authority found in the Son of God. |
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Post by makesends on Nov 8, 2022 17:38:22 GMT -8
It looks like the tree will give its fruit year round so we will eat, not sure how waste will work lol. Oh! This is such a good observation! It's been my observation as a Christian the idealized versions of Eden have no room for "waste." Many assume there was absolutely NO death in Eden even though many was made mortal, and the laws of physics dictate any creature falling great distance under the influence of gravity meets with an unavoidable result at the sudden stop to the fall . All the creatures designed for the purpose of recycling existed from the beginning. They were all made during the same six days as everything else - but they served the good function with which they were designed and for which they were purposed. The command to subdue and rule was going to mean work and overcoming void and desolation always requires death of that which is ruled. Waste. The wasteland was going to be laid waste so that it would bring forth life, life like that found in Eden! In other words, when God created the earth He did so with plenty of wilderness already existing to be conquered. Are we to think that no longer exists in the vastness of the universe? No, I think the resurrection is simply another beginning. Eternity is a long "time" . Make mine waterfall-fed fishing holes, please. Maybe a few mountains to climb with great vistas. You can have my golf courses . How many times does God say, " No longer," literally? How many times does God say, " No longer," rhetorically? How many times does God say, " No longer," with specific or limiting context? I've long held to the belief NO death exists on the other side of the fiery lake (judgment) because death itself is annulled or destroyed, but that might be limited to the context of the human and angelic relationship to Christ. It's long been a point of contemplation for me to note the differences between the plural heavens of Genesis 1:1 and the later singular heaven of the New Testament and judgment. If I entertain quantum mechanics and the perspective of ten or eleven dimensions to creation (not the four we currently know of) then there is a huge creation of which we are ignorant. Will the rest be included in our knowing all things? If so, then I don't think we're done working on the other side of resurrection, and neither do I think that work will be all giggles and spit. It'll just be done from a disposition of power and authority found in the Son of God. In keeping with the idea that "the old way of things will be done away with" and "and time will be no more", and several other things of that sort —particularly the idea of us looking at everything backwards, and of those things being the real and this the poor copy, not only do I conjecture that quantum scientists will (figuratively) smack their heads and say, "It was right there in front of me the whole time!", but that our 'work' there will be consuming joy, in Him, intense enough to kill us if God himself was not our sustenance. Our 'rest' is also in him, and the two may very well be one and the same thing. To me, the whole matter is going to be so radically different from what we see as "the way of things" temporally, that it seems highly probable that the New Jerusalem where God's Dwelling is with Men, is in fact the very Bride of Christ, and the place that Christ has gone to prepare for us, is us! Streets of transparent gold, purity and perfection in every way. Do we have some reason to doubt that perfect communion and fellowship will be present there? We really don't know very much. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2022 7:22:09 GMT -8
Oh! This is such a good observation! It's been my observation as a Christian the idealized versions of Eden have no room for "waste." Many assume there was absolutely NO death in Eden even though many was made mortal, and the laws of physics dictate any creature falling great distance under the influence of gravity meets with an unavoidable result at the sudden stop to the fall . All the creatures designed for the purpose of recycling existed from the beginning. They were all made during the same six days as everything else - but they served the good function with which they were designed and for which they were purposed. The command to subdue and rule was going to mean work and overcoming void and desolation always requires death of that which is ruled. Waste. The wasteland was going to be laid waste so that it would bring forth life, life like that found in Eden! In other words, when God created the earth He did so with plenty of wilderness already existing to be conquered. Are we to think that no longer exists in the vastness of the universe? No, I think the resurrection is simply another beginning. Eternity is a long "time" . Make mine waterfall-fed fishing holes, please. Maybe a few mountains to climb with great vistas. You can have my golf courses . How many times does God say, " No longer," literally? How many times does God say, " No longer," rhetorically? How many times does God say, " No longer," with specific or limiting context? I've long held to the belief NO death exists on the other side of the fiery lake (judgment) because death itself is annulled or destroyed, but that might be limited to the context of the human and angelic relationship to Christ. It's long been a point of contemplation for me to note the differences between the plural heavens of Genesis 1:1 and the later singular heaven of the New Testament and judgment. If I entertain quantum mechanics and the perspective of ten or eleven dimensions to creation (not the four we currently know of) then there is a huge creation of which we are ignorant. Will the rest be included in our knowing all things? If so, then I don't think we're done working on the other side of resurrection, and neither do I think that work will be all giggles and spit. It'll just be done from a disposition of power and authority found in the Son of God. In keeping with the idea that "the old way of things will be done away with" and "and time will be no more", and several other things of that sort —particularly the idea of us looking at everything backwards, and of those things being the real and this the poor copy, not only do I conjecture that quantum scientists will (figuratively) smack their heads and say, "It was right there in front of me the whole time!", but that our 'work' there will be consuming joy, in Him, intense enough to kill us if God himself was not our sustenance. Our 'rest' is also in him, and the two may very well be one and the same thing. There is a consistent tension in scripture between being made new and being renewed, the elements being destroyed and being restored. I do not read scripture to say there is an entirely new and different creation. There's not a repeat of Genesis 1:1. There is a changing of the heavens and the earth God created at Genesis 1:1 and those things God made during the first six days will have their completion in the future. I liken it to God resting on the seventh day, the day in which His Son rested in the grave to finish the work for which he was foreknown...... and the same creation being entirely different (much as it was when the first Adam screwed up everything). So, for example, I get a new body on the other side of resurrection, but I am still human, and I am still Josh. My name is written for all eternity in the Lamb's book of life. I will be changed and different, but I will never not be Josh (or whatever new name God might give me (Abram/Abraham, Jacob/Israel, Simon/Peter, etc.). It'll be fun . As far as the physics go, I suspect there is just as exponentially grander science on the other side of our understanding those field theories as there was in the move from Newton to Einstein/Planck. Despite our vast knowledge, we understand very little about creation. I come from the already/not-yet position of the Reformation so I find the New Jerusalem is a present reality and one yet to come. God dwells with men now in his indwelling Holy Spirit and if we Christians acted as if that were true then we'd see a lot mor of the city of peace on earth. In regard to this idea of " perfect union," I suspect we're all in for a big shock and it won't be fun and may not bring instant peace of mind. First, is there a verse that speaks explicitly of " perfect communion"? I'd like to investigate that. The Greek in scriptures use two words for " perfect." One is the term for an absence of imperfection, but the more common term is a word that is better translation as " maturity," as in grape juice fermenting into wine coming to perfection or maturity. This is the term used most often of Jesus' relationship with his Father and our relationship to Jesus. I say this because the perfect communion will have us realizing something we currently don't like to admit: we are created creatures and NOT the Creator. God is in charge; we are not. God is sovereign; we are subordinate. He is the Master, and we are the slaves. In regard to the hierarchy, it does not matter that our being slaves is a completely different enslavement than ever previously experienced in humanity before. As slaves, we are also servants, bondservants who will never leave the indentured service BUT who are also adopted as sons (and daughters). It is amazing, but it is also hierarchical. I suspect that will be sobering in many ways. To come face to face with the Creator of the universe will be shocking - alarming and awesome. Sounds like fun, right? Right. Which is why I found a smidgen of humor in the op  . What do we know of fun? peace of mind? heaven? God? |
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Post by makesends on Nov 9, 2022 14:05:02 GMT -8
In keeping with the idea that "the old way of things will be done away with" and "and time will be no more", and several other things of that sort —particularly the idea of us looking at everything backwards, and of those things being the real and this the poor copy, not only do I conjecture that quantum scientists will (figuratively) smack their heads and say, "It was right there in front of me the whole time!", but that our 'work' there will be consuming joy, in Him, intense enough to kill us if God himself was not our sustenance. Our 'rest' is also in him, and the two may very well be one and the same thing. There is a consistent tension in scripture between being made new and being renewed, the elements being destroyed and being restored. I do not read scripture to say there is an entirely new and different creation. There's not a repeat of Genesis 1:1. There is a changing of the heavens and the earth God created at Genesis 1:1 and those things God made during the first six days will have their completion in the future. I liken it to God resting on the seventh day, the day in which His Son rested in the grave to finish the work for which he was foreknown...... and the same creation being entirely different (much as it was when the first Adam screwed up everything). So, for example, I get a new body on the other side of resurrection, but I am still human, and I am still Josh. My name is written for all eternity in the Lamb's book of life. I will be changed and different, but I will never not be Josh (or whatever new name God might give me (Abram/Abraham, Jacob/Israel, Simon/Peter, etc.). It'll be fun . As far as the physics go, I suspect there is just as exponentially grander science on the other side of our understanding those field theories as there was in the move from Newton to Einstein/Planck. Despite our vast knowledge, we understand very little about creation. I come from the already/not-yet position of the Reformation so I find the New Jerusalem is a present reality and one yet to come. God dwells with men now in his indwelling Holy Spirit and if we Christians acted as if that were true then we'd see a lot mor of the city of peace on earth. In regard to this idea of " perfect union," I suspect we're all in for a big shock and it won't be fun and may not bring instant peace of mind. First, is there a verse that speaks explicitly of " perfect communion"? I'd like to investigate that. The Greek in scriptures use two words for " perfect." One is the term for an absence of imperfection, but the more common term is a word that is better translation as " maturity," as in grape juice fermenting into wine coming to perfection or maturity. This is the term used most often of Jesus' relationship with his Father and our relationship to Jesus. I say this because the perfect communion will have us realizing something we currently don't like to admit: we are created creatures and NOT the Creator. God is in charge; we are not. God is sovereign; we are subordinate. He is the Master, and we are the slaves. In regard to the hierarchy, it does not matter that our being slaves is a completely different enslavement than ever previously experienced in humanity before. As slaves, we are also servants, bondservants who will never leave the indentured service BUT who are also adopted as sons (and daughters). It is amazing, but it is also hierarchical. I suspect that will be sobering in many ways. To come face to face with the Creator of the universe will be shocking - alarming and awesome. Sounds like fun, right? Right. Which is why I found a smidgen of humor in the op . What do we know of fun? peace of mind? heaven? God? I love all you said there! I wish I knew how to separate it to answer each part like you did mine, but, oh well. Yes! I agree with both the idea of completely new and 'still the same Josh' —that is, the principle that that is related to. My only way I know to get across the radical difference is try how I might, to explain that we don't know much if we think we know. This life IS a picture of the real one. But our view of it is badly distorted, placing weight and meaning where it doesn't belong and missing the whole point in most matters! Take for example, the idea of us being made in the image of God: The implications there are enormous, impinging on every true doctrine, (I think). Yet we treat it with confidence as meaning this or that ("freewill" or "power of reason" or whatever). And most of my ideas of what it will be like come, not from prophecy, but from Scriptures as to his nature or being, and the admonitions and assurances concerning our life NOW. And particularly the notion of our complete inability to do anything in and of ourselves —our necessary dependence on him (which ironically, is not in itself even stated right, no matter how I put it)! Your sober thought that not all will necessarily be complete at first, to my thinking falls within what I refer to as the "work" we will be doing there, but doing by his very sustenance. I think we will also there, never be what we are becoming, as is true here. But THAT, the living IN HIM and for him, with him as our very sustenance, I think is the rest for our souls we can find even here. There is, as far as I have experienced, nothing to make that rest more obvious, in this temporal life, than to take his yoke upon us. Is that related to Romans 12, presenting our bodies a living sacrifice? I think it is. True worship! Consuming Joy. It may well be partly right, that the "Joy is in the Journey", or that "the Journey is the Goal". As far as the physics go, I think the "already and not yet" applies there too, and will answer all our questions (that we are so unimaginative as to be asking now) I think his very nature, perhaps his very being (no, I am violently opposed to pantheism), applies to both and probably in the same way. |
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e v e
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Post by e v e on Jan 15, 2023 20:14:08 GMT -8
the sin is this fleshbody
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Post by makesends on Jan 15, 2023 21:29:34 GMT -8
I have over the years come to a distressing (in one regard) but satisfying and even fun conclusion, that our mental conceptions of things like how it will be in heaven, are heavily weighted in some areas and completely lacking in others. In other words, we are off kilter. Remembering back through the years, (yes, I know not everyone sees things quite the way I do), I've noticed that wherever I spent more than a few weeks, and sometimes even with just a few days, I gained a 'flavor' of a place, particularly if it became home to me. Heaven, I am pretty sure, will have a 'flavor', no doubt in one delightful way familiar, but also in a new way. But I am sure we will find that this is what we were made for. We say that it is our rest, and our home, and it is truly so, but we don't know what it will be like. For example, I have no idea quite what it will mean, that God himself will be our very sustenance, the essence of our existence; we will see that reality is all about him. And pursuing him will be both delight and intense activity, to the extent, I believe, that we would die were he not sustaining us. And even there, as in this life, for the believer, "to me to live is Christ". It is not a matter of us fitting in, in Heaven. It is prepared for us, and we for him. Even stranger is something I have come to believe, that WE are what Christ has gone to prepare —that is, that WE, THE BRIDE OF CHRIST, ARE GOD's DWELLING PLACE. God's home. Interesting. What exegetes might refer to as imagery and such —in Rev 21, for example, and in many other references mentioning such things as that we are the Body of Christ, and Bride of Christ, tend (to my mind) to begin to tie together. I can't say I'm necessarily right, but in Rev 21, "the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband." they say that the word, "as" means the New Jerusalem cannot be a bride, but I say she is prepared as the bride that she IS. Another "figure" that closely ties with this is the Dwelling Place of God, which fits very nicely with the descriptions of the New Jerusalem. Ezekiel 37:27 "My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people." sounds like Rev 21:3 " “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will dwell with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God" 1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?" |
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! I say this because it may well be God has further purpose for us in heaven that involves battle and victory. If so, why would I not have peace of mind knowing the Guy who knows how to split atoms and speak things into and out of existence has my immortal back? 
were won by God (duh) and in the end the enemies of Christ will be cast into the fiery lake so destructive even death is destroyed, but is this only Volume 1 of a history with many tomes? I don't see us sitting around endlessly raising our hands in worship any more than I envision us twiddling our thumbs for all eternity. We were saved for work! 
. What do we know of fun? peace of mind? heaven? God? 