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Post by rickstudies on Aug 17, 2022 11:51:43 GMT -8
On this one I have to post more matereal then I normally do so it will take me awhile to put it all up.
The goal will be to consider what people who read Hebew see when they read about God in the Old Testament. But before I go there I want to post what Jesus said about Himself in relation to God. Then I will look at the behavior of Jesus in the Old Testament and also His behavior in the book of Revelation.
Thx again to Rambo who posted the information I needed to really talk about Jesus activities in Old Testament. This one is for my own study as much as it is for anyone else. I`m pretty excited about the stuff he put up. I had similar research that got wiped out by a virus several years ago so I`m pretty glad to recover it.
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 17, 2022 12:46:46 GMT -8
I`ll start by pointing out several things Jesus said about Himself.
Jesus was sent by God John 6:39
Jesus came forth from within God John 8:42
Jesus is God John 1:1
The words of Jesus were given to him by God John 17:8
The doctrine of Jesus is God`s doctrine John 7:16
Jesus carried the Father within Himself and it was the Father who did the works of Jesus John 14:10
Jesus is the Almighty Rev 1:8
Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God Rev 3:14
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 17, 2022 13:17:47 GMT -8
It is an all-too-common assumption that the concept of the Trinity is a purely Christian idea. But the idea of a God being a three-in-one unity actually has its roots in foundational Judaism and in the Hebrew Scriptures. Even the concept of the Holy Spirit, the Ruach Ha-kodesh, originates in the Hebrew Scriptures—as early as Genesis 1.
Yet, modern Judaism has reached an overwhelming consensus that one cannot believe in the Trinity and be Jewish. Rabbi Stanley Greenberg argues that “Hebrew Scriptures are clear and unequivocal on the oneness of (Note: I decided to repost Rambos entire article. I will use porrtions of this this as source matereal )
God.… Monotheism, an uncompromising belief in one God, is the hallmark of the Hebrew Bible, the unwavering affirmation of Judaism and the unshakable faith of the Jew.” He continues, “Under no circumstances can a concept of a plurality of the Godhead or a trinity of the Godhead ever be based upon the Hebrew Bible.” Even if what Christians believe is monotheistic, it does not seem to be monotheistic enough to qualify as true Jewishness.
Many Jewish people do believe in the Trinity.
But if we are to examine this line of thinking, it is best to begin with the very source of Jewish theology and the only means of testing it—the Hebrew Scriptures. We should be open to exploring and understanding the nuances of the Jewish roots of the Trinity because many Jewish people do believe in the Trinity! If we go back to the Scriptures, the case is clear, and this article will walk you through that case. Our understanding hinges on the Hebrew language, so to the Hebrew first we shall turn.
God is Plural: The Possibility of a Jewish Understanding of the Trinity Through Language
The name Elohim
It is generally agreed that Elohim is a plural noun having the masculine plural ending “im.” Elohim is used to describe God in Genesis 1:1: “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” It is also used in Exodus 20:3: “You shall have no other gods [Elohim] before me,” and in Deuteronomy 13:2: “Let us go after other gods [Elohim].” Elohim is the word that is used of the one true God as well as for the many false gods. While the use of the plural Elohim does not prove a Tri-unity, it certainly opens the door to a doctrine of plurality in the Godhead.
Most Hebrew scholars recognize that the word Elohim, as it stands by itself, is a plural noun. But they deny that it allows for any plurality in the Godhead whatsoever, arguing that when “Elohim” is used of the true God, it is followed by a singular verb; when it is used of false gods, it is followed by a plural verb:
But, in fact, the verb used in the opening verse of Genesis is “bara” which means “he created”—singular. One need not be too profound a student of Hebrew to understand that the opening verse of Genesis clearly speaks of a singular God. (Greenberg)
The point made, of course, is true because the Bible does teach that God is only one God, and therefore, the general pattern is to have the plural noun followed by the singular verb when it speaks of the one true God. However, there are places where the word is used of the true God and yet is followed by a plural verb:
Genesis 20:13: “And when God [Elohim] caused me to wander [literally: “They” caused me to wander] from my father's house.
Genesis 35:7: “There God [Elohim] had revealed himself to him.” [Literally: “They” appeared unto him.]
2 Samuel 7:23: “God [Elohim] went.”" [Literally: “They” went.]
Psalm 58:11: “Surely there is a God [Elohim] who judges.” [Literally: “They” judge.]
What does this mean for our understanding of the oneness of God?
The name Eloah
If the plural form Elohim was the only form available for a reference to God, then conceivably the argument might be that the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures had no other alternative but to use the word Elohim for both the one true God and the false gods. However, the singular form for Elohim (Eloah) appears elsewhere (e.g., Deuteronomy 32:15-17 and Habakkuk 3:3). This singular form could have easily been used consistently, yet it is only used 250 times, while the plural form is used 2,500 times. The use of the plural form again turns the argument in favor of plurality in the Godhead.
Plural pronouns for God
When God speaks of Himself, He uses the plural pronoun. In Genesis 1:26: “Then God [Elohim] said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.’ He could hardly have made reference to angels since man was created in the image of God and not of angels. The Midrash Rabbah on Genesis recognizes the weight of this passage:
Rabbi Samuel Bar Hanman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah, writing a portion of it daily, when he came to this verse which says, “And Elohim said, let us make man in our image after our likeness,” Moses said, “Master of the universe, why do you give herewith an excuse to the sectarians (who believe in the Tri-unity of God)?” God answered Moses, “You write and whoever wants to err, let him err.”1
Jesus’ References to Old Testament Scriptures
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The Midrash Rabbah tries to avoid the problem and fails to adequately answer why God refers to Himself in the plural. The use of the plural pronoun appears frequently, and avoiding it or explaining it away is insufficient:
Genesis 3:22: “Then the LORD God [YHVH Elohim] said, ‘Behold, the man has become like one of us.’”
Genesis 11:7: “Come, let us go down and there confuse their language.”
Isaiah 6:8: “I heard the voice of the Lord saying, ‘Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?’” This would appear contradictory with the singular “I” and the plural “us” except as viewed as a plurality (us) in a unity (I).
God seems to refer to Himself in the plural, so where does that leave us as we try to understand Him? The authors of Scripture have attempted to deal with His plurality, and their exploration is useful for our understanding.
Plural descriptions of God
God not only speaks of Himself in the plural, but many authors of Scripture also refer to God’s plurality. Out of the Hebrew, we find that nouns and adjectives describing God are in the plural form:
Ecclesiastes 12:1: "Remember now your Creator." [Literally: creators.]
Psalm 149:2: "Let Israel rejoice in their Maker." [Literally: makers.]
Joshua 24:19: "holy God" [Literally: holy Gods.]
Isaiah 54:5: "For your Maker is your husband." [Literally: makers, husbands.]
While Jewish tradition has commonly rejected the idea of the Trinity, there is no doubt that Judaism portrays a plurality of God’s existence. All the evidence so far rests firmly on the Hebrew language of the Scriptures. If we are to base our theology on Scriptures alone, we have to say that they affirm God’s unity, while at the same time they tend towards the concept of a compound unity. There is room for plurality in the Godhead.
The Shema and God’s Plural Nature
The resounding and profound words throughout all generations: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!” (Deuteronomy 6:4). This has always been Israel’s great confession. This verse is used more than any other to affirm the fact that God is one and to deny the possibility of plurality in the Godhead.
The word echad does not mean an 'absolute one' but a 'compound one.'
On the one hand, it should be noted that the very words “our God” are in the plural in the Hebrew text and literally mean “our Gods.” However, the main argument lies in the word “one,” which is a Hebrew word, echad. A glance through the Hebrew text where the word is used elsewhere can quickly show that the word echad does not mean an “absolute one” but a “compound one.”
For instance, in Genesis 1:5, the combination of evening and morning comprise one (echad) day. In Genesis 2:24, a man and a woman come together in marriage and the two “shall become one [echad] flesh.” In Ezra 2:64, we are told that the whole assembly was as one (echad), though of course, it was composed of numerous people. Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). The use of the word echad in Scripture shows it to be a compound unity and not an absolute unity.
There is a Hebrew word that does mean an absolute unity and that is the word yachid, which is found in many Scripture passages,2 with the emphasis being on the meaning of “only.” If Moses intended to teach God’s absolute oneness instead of as a compound unity, yachid would have been a far more appropriate word. In fact, Maimonides noted the strength of “yachid” and chose to use that word in his “Thirteen Articles of Faith” in place of echad. However, Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Shema) does not use “yachid” in reference to God.
There is sufficient evidence for the plurality of God. But can we come to a concrete understanding of the Jewish view of the Trinity?
A Dual God: Judaism’s Understanding of the Godhead
Elohim and YHVH
The case for God’s plurality becomes stronger when we encounter the term Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, such as in Psalm 45:6-7:
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness; you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.
The first Elohim is being addressed, and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God’s God has anointed Him with the oil of gladness.
And Hosea 1:7:
I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and I will save them by the LORD their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen.
The speaker is Elohim who says He will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHVH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.
Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God: “Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven” (Genesis 19:24). YHVH number one is on earth raining sulfur and fire from a second YHVH who is in heaven.
Furthermore, Zechariah 2:8-9:
For thus says the LORD of Hosts, after his glory sent me to the nations who plundered you, for he who touches you touches the apple of his eye: “Behold, I will shake my hand over them, and they shall become plunder for those who served them. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me.”
So, again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.
What Proof Do You Have That Jesus Is the Messiah?
The Scriptures tell us specific credentials to help us identify the Messiah.
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A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:
For thus says the LORD of Hosts: "He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he that touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me."
Again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.
The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton3 and wrote:
Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit.4
The evidence for at least a dual God in the Hebrew Scriptures is clear, but what is Judaism’s response to a triune God?
A Triune God: Judaism’s Understanding of the Holy Spirit
If the Hebrew Scriptures point to plurality, then how many personalities exist in the Godhead? As we saw above, the names of God are applied to at least two different personalities. Yet, a deeper examination of the Hebrew Scriptures shows three distinct personalities that are considered divine.
First, there are numerous references to the LORD YHVH. Second, there is a personality referred to as the Angel of YHVH who is considered distinct from the other angels. In passages where He is found, He is referred to as both the Angel of YHVH and YHVH Himself. For instance, in Genesis 16:7, He is referred to as the Angel of YHVH, but then in 16:13, as YHVH Himself. In Genesis 22:11, He is the Angel of YHVH, but God Himself in 22:12. Exodus 23:20-23 presents an angel who has the power to pardon sin because God’s own name YHVH is in him. This can hardly be said of any ordinary angel. But the very fact that God’s own name is in this angel shows his divine status.
A third major personality that comes through is the Spirit of God, often referred to as the Ruach Ha-kodesh. There are a good number of references to the Spirit of God in the Hebrew Scriptures.5 The Holy Spirit cannot be a mere emanation because He contains all the characteristics of personality (intellect, emotion, and will) and is considered divine.
There is clear evidence that three personalities are referred to as divine and as being God.
So then, from various sections of the Hebrew Scriptures, there is clear evidence that three personalities are referred to as divine and as being God: the LORD YHVH, the Angel of YHVH, and the Spirit of God.
The Intersection of God’s Three Personalities
The Scriptures do present all three personalities of the Godhead together in some passages. Isaiah 48:12-16 reveals a speaker who refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth:
Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last. My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together. “Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he shall perform his purpose on Babylon, and his arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken and called him; I have brought him, and he will prosper in his way. Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there.” And now the Lord GOD has sent me, and his Spirit.
It is clear that the speaker is God Himself. But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of I and me and distinguishes himself from the LORD YHVH and from the Spirit of God. The Tri-unity is presented in the Hebrew Scriptures with striking clarity.
In Isaiah 63:7-14, there is a reflection back to the time of the Exodus, clearly demonstrating all three personalities as present and active. The LORD YHVH is referred to in verse 7, the Angel of YHVH in verse 9, and the Spirit of God in verses 10, 11, and 14. While God refers to Himself as the one responsible for Israel’s redemption from Egypt, in this passage three personalities are given credit. Yet, no contradiction is seen since all three comprise the unity of the one Godhead.
Are Judaism and the Trinity Reconcilable?
The Hebrew Scriptures show a plural Godhead. The first person is consistently called YHVH, while the second person is given the names of YHVH, the Angel of YHVH, and the Servant of YHVH. Consistently and without fail, the second person is sent by the first person. The third person is referred to as the Spirit of YHVH or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. He, too, is sent by the first person but is continually related to the ministry of the second person.
If the concept of the Tri-unity of God is not Jewish, then neither are the Hebrew Scriptures.
If the concept of the Tri-unity in the Godhead is not Jewish according to modern rabbis, then neither are the Hebrew Scriptures. Jewish Christians cannot be accused of having slipped into paganism when they hold to the fact that Jesus is the divine Son of God. He is the same one of whom Moses wrote when he said:
Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him. But if you carefully obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. When my angel goes before you and brings you to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, and I blot them out. (Exodus 23:20-23)
Is the Teaching of the New Testament Consistent with the Concept of the Trinity Presented in the Hebrew Scriptures?
In keeping with the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament recognizes that there are three persons in the Godhead. The first person is the Father, the second person is the Son, and the third person is the Holy Spirit.
What happened is that God became a man (not that man became God).
The New Testament answers the question of Proverbs 30:4: “What is his name, and what is his son’s name? Surely you know!” His son’s name is Yeshua (Jesus). In accordance with the Hebrew Scriptures, he is sent by God to be the Messiah, but this time as a man instead of as an angel. Furthermore, he is sent for a specific purpose: to die for our sins. In essence, what happened is that God became a man (not that man became God) in order to accomplish the work of atonement.
The New Testament calls the third person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit. He is related to the work of the second person—consistent with the Hebrew Scriptures. Evidently, there is a consistent body of teaching in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament related to the Tri-unity of God. The New Testament presents a truthful and consistent picture of who God is, making it a reliable Jewish source for understanding the plurality of the Godhead.
Endnotes
1. Midrash Rabbah, Genesis 1:26 (New York: NOP Press).
2. Genesis 22:2,12; Judges 11:34; Psalm 22:21; 25:16; Proverbs 4:3; Jeremiah 6:26; Amos 8:10; Zechariah 12:10.
3. Encyclopedic Dictionary of Judaica, “Personal Name of God of Israel,” written in the Hebrew Bible with the four consonants YHWH. Pronunciation of name has been avoided since at least the third century BC; the initial substitute was “Adonai” (“the Lord”), itself later replaced by “ha-Shem” (“the Name”). The name Jehovah is a hybrid misreading of the original Hebrew letters with the vowels of “Adonai,” 593.
4. Zohar, vol. III:288, vol. II:43, Hebrew editions. See also Soncino Press edition, vol. III:134.
5. See Genesis 1:2; 6:3; Job 33:4; Psalm 51:11; Psalm 139:7; Isaiah 11:2.
This article was adapted from an earlier Jews for Jesus article by Arnold Fructenbaum.
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 17, 2022 14:39:59 GMT -8
Jesus testified that He was sent by God, came forth from within God, carried God within His own body, that God did the miracles, that His words and doctrines were God`s words and doctrines. Jesus job was to speak the words and in John 17:8 Jesus declared that job to be completed.
One really interesting thing about all this, a careful examination of the Old Testament shows them operating the same way in my opinion.
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 17, 2022 16:05:49 GMT -8
John 17
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
The notable thing about this statement, Jesus declared His work was finished before He was arrested and executed.
The events that took place after He made this remark were for His glory. It was not His responsibility to die but rather his death became a destructive defeat for God`s enemies.
Hebrews 2 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 17, 2022 16:19:55 GMT -8
1 Corinthians 8 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
This verse is another telling statement. The creation is of the Father and by the Son.
Operating the same way they did when Jesus came in the flesh. The Father supplied the power for creation, Jesus is the maker, the artist who made it all.
And just what God is seen in the Old Testament? The answer to that is in Rambo`s article of course but the Bible plainly states that God the Father has never been seen by a man, that He is a Spirit and that He is invisible.
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 17, 2022 17:12:24 GMT -8
Here is a clear Old Testament reference to both The Father and the Son
Isaiah 44 6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
It just doesn`t get much plainer than that.
(excerpt from article above)
"Elohim and YHVH
The case for God’s plurality becomes stronger when we encounter the term Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, such as in Psalm 45:6-7:
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness; you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.
The first Elohim is being addressed, and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God’s God has anointed Him with the oil of gladness.
And Hosea 1:7:
I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and I will save them by the LORD their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen."
The speaker is Elohim who says He will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHVH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.
Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God: “Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven” (Genesis 19:24). YHVH number one is on earth raining sulfur and fire from a second YHVH who is in heaven.
Furthermore, Zechariah 2:8-9:
For thus says the LORD of Hosts, after his glory sent me to the nations who plundered you, for he who touches you touches the apple of his eye: “Behold, I will shake my hand over them, and they shall become plunder for those who served them. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me.”
So, again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.
A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:
For thus says the LORD of Hosts: "He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he that touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me."
Again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 17, 2022 22:18:40 GMT -8
Jesus had 2 primary goals when He came in the flesh. One, I already mentioned. He delivered the words the Father gave him to say. His second goal was to fulfill.
Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
The ambition of Jesus was and is to fulfill the Law and every word spoken by the prophets of God. When Jesus Christ was in the flesh He fulfilled the Law. He also fulfilled many prophecies. It is a list of prophecies so big that I have no ambition to go find one to copy and paste here.
But Jesus didn`t fulfill all prophecies which is why Jesus is coming back to fulfill the rest.
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
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101G
New Member
The Binding Covenant
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Post by 101G on Aug 18, 2022 6:11:34 GMT -8
Great scriptures, and I'm still going over them. but what I like to address is this. JESUS is the OT, and NT in the ECHAD of First/"LORD"/Father, (meaning he's CREATOR, and MAKER of all things). and Last/"Lord"/Son, (meaning he's REDEEMER, and SAVIOUR oif all things that he made).
Jesus is Father, Spirit, without a body. his title Father is because he CREATED and MADE all things. Jesus is Son, the Spirit shared in a "body", his title Son is because he REDEEMED and SAVED all things.
and as Son, in the Glorified Body he is the NEW CREATION because of his Amalgamation in his own Spirit. this is why Jesus, God has only "one" face to see. Revelation 22:3 "And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:" Revelation 22:4 "And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads."
God is the Lamb ..... one Person, one Name, and One FACE.
PICJAG, 101G.
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 18, 2022 9:25:26 GMT -8
Great scriptures, and I'm still going over them. but what I like to address is this. JESUS is the OT, and NT in the ECHAD of First/"LORD"/Father, (meaning he's CREATOR, and MAKER of all things). and Last/"Lord"/Son, (meaning he's REDEEMER, and SAVIOUR oif all things that he made). Jesus is Father, Spirit, without a body. his title Father is because he CREATED and MADE all things. Jesus is Son, the Spirit shared in a "body", his title Son is because he REDEEMED and SAVED all things. and as Son, in the Glorified Body he is the NEW CREATION because of his Amalgamation in his own Spirit. this is why Jesus, God has only "one" face to see. Revelation 22:3 "And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:" Revelation 22:4 "And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads." God is the Lamb ..... one Person, one Name, and One FACE. PICJAG, 101G. If that were true then who is Jesus giving us to? 1 Cor 15 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
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101G
New Member
The Binding Covenant
Posts: 49
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Post by 101G on Aug 18, 2022 10:53:42 GMT -8
rickstudies said, If that were true then who is Jesus giving us to?
I'm going to make this as short as possible. this is from some old notes of mine on this subject.
“The subjection of Christ within God” 1 Corinthians 15:27 "For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all".
SUBJECT: G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so) v. According to Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English. the Greek word here, G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso, this word is used as a verb, and not a noun. (That will alert one quickly). as a verb one can quickly see, or understand what subject means here in context. SUBJECT, v.t. 1. To bring under the power or dominion of. Alexander subjected a great part of the civilized world to his dominion. Firmness of mind that subjects every gratification of sense to the rule of right reason-- 2. To put under or within the power of.
.put within, and later b. one’s will. lets look at both and understand this revelation. according to the second definition of subject in the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary as a verb, it means 2. To put under or within the power of. (there is our revelation, “within” the power of. lets back this up with our second understanding. I’m using the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments. G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so) as a verb which means 1. to subordinate 2. (reflexively) to obey [from G5259 and G5021] KJV: be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.
please notice, the KJV can translate subject, G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso, as be under obedience, which bring us to our second understanding, the “WILL”. lets see this in scripture, Matthew 26:42 " He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done”. now here is the revelation. the Lord Jesus is God’s “OWN” arm. scripture, Isaiah 63:5 " And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me”. so being his “OWN” arm it is through, or “within” the agency of the Lord Jesus Christ that his, (GOD), OWN “will” is done, hence the obedience. this is proven out in the definition of G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso itself. the definition also states from G5259 and G5021, lets see what G5259 ὑπό hupo (hoop-oh') states, 1.under 2.(with the genitive case) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through) 3.(with the accusative case) of place (whither (underneath) or where (below) or time (when (at)) In the comparative, it retains the same general applications, especially of inferior position or condition, and specially, covertly or moderately. KJV: among, by, from, in, of, under, with
examine definition #2 above carefully, it said, when used as a verb. there is our conformation, and in 1 Corinthians 15 there it is used as a verb. the agency or means,“through”. and “through” is synonyms with “WITHIN”. so when G5259 is use in VERB form, meaning with a verb as in “BE” subject as here in 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 then it is understood to be used as the “agency or means, through”. other words Isaiah 63:5 is totally correct and on point when God said, " And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me”. the power is in, or within God “own” arm, which the Lord Jesus the Christ, (Isaiah 53),
Now, your section, 1 Corinthians 15:24 "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." did you see it.... your answer? listen, "when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father". the Father is the "LORD", all cap, JESUS the Ordinal First, in the ECHAD. and when he, the Ordinal First delivers up the KINGDOM in HIM, (meaning the Holy Ghost), to the Lord, the Ordinal Last who sits waiting. then he shall be all in all meaning no more ECHAD. scripture, 1 Corinthians 15:28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
when the Kingdom is taken up, there will be no more need for a mediator, nor a comforter. for God (the Ordinal First, title Father, and the Ordinal Last, title Son), will be in TOTAL Amalgamation, other word no more ECHAD, no more plurality. mission accomplish. “THE EVERLASTING FATHER”, the MIGHGTY GOD. just as the prophet Isaiah said, in 9:6, who is God "ALL in ALL", the Father who is the Son in flesh.
that God may be all in all". that one little word "BE" made all the difference.
PICJAG, 101G.
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Post by rickstudies on Aug 18, 2022 14:48:03 GMT -8
rickstudies said, If that were true then who is Jesus giving us to?
I'm going to make this as short as possible. this is from some old notes of mine on this subject.
“The subjection of Christ within God” 1 Corinthians 15:27 "For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all".
SUBJECT: G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so) v. According to Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English. the Greek word here, G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso, this word is used as a verb, and not a noun. (That will alert one quickly). as a verb one can quickly see, or understand what subject means here in context. SUBJECT, v.t. 1. To bring under the power or dominion of. Alexander subjected a great part of the civilized world to his dominion. Firmness of mind that subjects every gratification of sense to the rule of right reason-- 2. To put under or within the power of.
.put within, and later b. one’s will. lets look at both and understand this revelation. according to the second definition of subject in the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary as a verb, it means 2. To put under or within the power of. (there is our revelation, “within” the power of. lets back this up with our second understanding. I’m using the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments. G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so) as a verb which means 1. to subordinate 2. (reflexively) to obey [from G5259 and G5021] KJV: be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.
please notice, the KJV can translate subject, G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso, as be under obedience, which bring us to our second understanding, the “WILL”. lets see this in scripture, Matthew 26:42 " He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done”. now here is the revelation. the Lord Jesus is God’s “OWN” arm. scripture, Isaiah 63:5 " And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me”. so being his “OWN” arm it is through, or “within” the agency of the Lord Jesus Christ that his, (GOD), OWN “will” is done, hence the obedience. this is proven out in the definition of G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso itself. the definition also states from G5259 and G5021, lets see what G5259 ὑπό hupo (hoop-oh') states, 1.under 2.(with the genitive case) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through) 3.(with the accusative case) of place (whither (underneath) or where (below) or time (when (at)) In the comparative, it retains the same general applications, especially of inferior position or condition, and specially, covertly or moderately. KJV: among, by, from, in, of, under, with
examine definition #2 above carefully, it said, when used as a verb. there is our conformation, and in 1 Corinthians 15 there it is used as a verb. the agency or means,“through”. and “through” is synonyms with “WITHIN”. so when G5259 is use in VERB form, meaning with a verb as in “BE” subject as here in 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 then it is understood to be used as the “agency or means, through”. other words Isaiah 63:5 is totally correct and on point when God said, " And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me”. the power is in, or within God “own” arm, which the Lord Jesus the Christ, (Isaiah 53),
Now, your section, 1 Corinthians 15:24 "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." did you see it.... your answer? listen, "when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father". the Father is the "LORD", all cap, JESUS the Ordinal First, in the ECHAD. and when he, the Ordinal First delivers up the KINGDOM in HIM, (meaning the Holy Ghost), to the Lord, the Ordinal Last who sits waiting. then he shall be all in all meaning no more ECHAD. scripture, 1 Corinthians 15:28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
when the Kingdom is taken up, there will be no more need for a mediator, nor a comforter. for God (the Ordinal First, title Father, and the Ordinal Last, title Son), will be in TOTAL Amalgamation, other word no more ECHAD, no more plurality. mission accomplish. “THE EVERLASTING FATHER”, the MIGHGTY GOD. just as the prophet Isaiah said, in 9:6, who is God "ALL in ALL", the Father who is the Son in flesh.
that God may be all in all". that one little word "BE" made all the difference.
PICJAG, 101G. I really have no idea what all that is supposed to mean but I do know you are telling me that God is putting on a show in which he is the only actor and plays every part. That doesn`t make sense.
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nahum
New Member
Posts: 23
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Post by nahum on Aug 19, 2022 16:00:23 GMT -8
The Bible does not present one person but three persons within the Godhead -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is the Son who is the Lamb of God, and His name is Jesus.
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101G
New Member
The Binding Covenant
Posts: 49
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Post by 101G on Aug 20, 2022 4:35:37 GMT -8
The Bible does not present one person but three persons within the Godhead -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is the Son who is the Lamb of God, and His name is Jesus. GINOLJC, to all. First the bible does present only ONE PERSON in the Godhead, the Holy Spirit, "JESUS", by Name. from Genesis to Revelation. the Holy Spirit, God almighty is the ONLY person in the Godhead, in TIME, PLACE, ORDER OR RANK. and this is in Ordinal designation. supportive scripture, Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
Isaiah 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." (IF GOD KNOW NOT ANY BESIDE HIM, HOW CAN U PUT 2 MORE PERSONS BESIDE HIM?)
Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:" (I, ME, ARE SINGLE PERSON DESIGNATIONS.) NOT 2 PERSON, AND NOT 3 PERSONS
Isaiah 45:21 "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me." Isaiah 45:22 "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." (HOW MANY TIMES MUST HE TELL U?)
Hosea 13:4 "Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me." (HOW MANY E-MAILS MUST HE SEND BEBORE U GET IT?)
the titles, "Father", and "Son" belong to the Holy Spirit, "JESUS "by name. titles. as Ordinal First, "Father", RANK "LORD", ORDER "First", PLACE "OT and NT". TIME in the beginning, and at the end of the OT. and as Ordinal Last, at the end of the OT, title, "Son", RANK "Lord". ORDER "First", PLACE "NT, and the NEW CREATION, TIME, in the end of the OT, and the NEW beginning.
this is just 2 easy
PICJAG, 101G.
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 20, 2022 4:48:01 GMT -8
Rambo here....<iframe title="vimeo-player" src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/447889801?h=8357d02f1a" width="640" height="352" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Nice video. I've never seen God but I have had Him speak to me audibly one time. He said, "It's going to be alright." And it has been. That was 1983. Since then I have talked to about five different people about the subject of God speaking to us, that have had the same experience. The really amazing part is when God spoke to the He said the same words to them "It's going to be alright." Also, I got a real shock when I was reading a Christian book and the author shared what God spoke to him and sure enough it was the exact same thing "It's going to be alright." What does 5 words have come to mean to me is that no matter what I go through in my life "It's going to be alright." I have God's word on it. Deuteronomy 31:8 - And the LORD, He it is that doth go before thee; He will be with thee, He will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed. "It's going to be alright."
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