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Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 27, 2022 19:48:40 GMT -8
michaiah said bloodbought1953 said: Must have been J. Vernon McGee… Remember? On another topic thread (Agnostics) you said that he was the one that “brought you back into the faith”. I have heard him before… He’s just another fair speaking man (Romans 16:18) skilled in making the Bible of no effect (Mark 7:13). Two things stick out here ..... #1–I never heard anybody bad- mouth Mr. McGee before , He was a great Teacher of the Word and a man that “ served his generation well”...#2– I notice that the name that you use in here is embroiled in Flames—- I find that Ironic |
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Post by michaiah on Aug 28, 2022 2:26:44 GMT -8
bloodbought1953 said: This was the inspiration: “Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?” (Jeremiah 23:29) I use the Bible like a flame thrower to burn heresies to ashes.
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 28, 2022 4:14:52 GMT -8
bloodbought1953 said: This was the inspiration: “Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?” (Jeremiah 23:29) I use the Bible like a flame thrower to burn heresies to ashes. I like it, God knows our sins and our need for cleansing. We are precious to the Lord and for those of us who surrender to him, he will purify us. Makes me think of: “But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver” (Malachi 3:2-3). Matthew Henry's Commentary on Malachi teaches us that "Christ by his gospel shall purify and reform his church, and by his Spirit working with it shall regenerate and cleanse particular souls; for to this end he gave himself for the church, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word (Eph. 5:26) and purify to himself a peculiar people, Tit. 2:14 . Christ is the great refiner. He will purge them with fire, as gold and silver are purged, for he baptizes with the Holy Ghost and with fire (Mt. 3:11), with the Holy Ghost working like fire. He will purge them by afflictions and manifold temptations, that the trial of their faith may be found to praise and honor. He will purge them so as to make them a precious people to himself. (Matthew Henry Complete Bible Commentary) Thanks for sharing that, I'll never look at your avatar without remembering its purpose. |
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 28, 2022 5:56:21 GMT -8
Legalism seems to be like a poem – no one can seem to define it, but everyone thinks they know it when they see it.
From the link in the OP: Defining "Legalism" by David McClister
I'm reading all the post in this thread I get the impression you guys have a pretty good handle on this topic, me not so much. So it looks like I'm going to have to add this to my list of things to study out.
I found this Definition from RC Sproul "Legalism is the opposite heresy of antinomianism. Whereas antinomianism denies the significance of law, legalism exalts law above grace. The legalists of Jesus’ day were the Pharisees, and Jesus reserved His strongest criticism for them. The fundamental distortion of legalism is the belief that one can earn one’s way into the kingdom of heaven. The Pharisees believed that due to their status as children of Abraham, and to their scrupulous adherence to the law, they were the children of God. At the core, this was a denial of the gospel.
To me legalism is a lot like that old saying "Do-as-i-say-not-as-i-do"
Like the Jewish obligation to care for aging parents. The Talmud defines it as six primary actions all of them Requiring money from the pockets of the Aging Parents children. But they found a loophole. If they donated a sum of money To the local Synagogue, they were no longer required take care of their parents.
Sounds like a good defense attorney to me. One way of looking at legalism is insisting that everyone plays by your rules.
It's like legalism is the adherence to the letter of the law to the exclusion of the spirit of the law. In order for the Pharisees to believe that they could keep the law, they first had to reduce it to its most narrow and wooden interpretation that worked in their favor.
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 28, 2022 8:33:15 GMT -8
The Pharisees were guilty of another form of legalism. They added their own laws to the law of God. Their “traditions” were raised to a status equal to the law of God. They robbed people of their liberty and put chains on them where God had left them free. That kind of legalism did not end with the Pharisees. It has also plagued the church in every generation.
Another form of legalism is majoring on the minors. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for omitting the weightier matters of the law while they were scrupulous in obeying minor points.
Jesus told them like it was:
Matthew 23:23-29
23.Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you give a tenth of your mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected and omitted the weightier (more important) matters of the Law—right and justice and mercy and fidelity. These you ought [particularly] to have done, without neglecting the others.
24 You blind guides, filtering out a gnat and gulping down a camel! [Lev. 27:30; Mic. 6:8.]
25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but within they are full of extortion (prey, spoil, plunder) and grasping self-indulgence.
26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and of the plate, so that the outside may be clean also.
27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you are like tombs that have been whitewashed, which look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything impure.
28 Just so, you also outwardly seem to people to be just and upright but inside you are full of pretense and lawlessness and iniquity.
29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous,
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 28, 2022 18:49:56 GMT -8
I use the Bible like a flame thrower to burn heresies to ashes.
It’s a shame that you biggest “ heresy” Is the Grace of God ......You can’t comprehend it, much less thank God for Saving you with it, simply because it has never been extended to you.....Your Pride and you Old Testament Mind- Frame and your Self- Righteous Legalism won’t allow it....
You are just a Modern - Day Pharisee , and I use Blind Guides like You as “Springboards” to get the Truth Of Paul’s Gospel Of Grace out there for all the “ Newbies” in the crowd that have not been ruined yet by your LEAVEN.....You are a great Springboard and you should be thanked for serving a great cause that you are oblivious to....so please allow me to say “ thanks!”.........Think of all the great Biblical Truths That get out there because of you being Willfully Ignorant and Stiff - Necked! You are a Blessing to these Forums—- keep up the Good Work! The only “ Ashes” you create are the Ashes in your mouth.....
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 29, 2022 4:48:25 GMT -8
its sad that 2 people who spend day after day flaming each other in other chatroom's over the OSAS and Sinless argument have brought their heated arguments here. Do you have to destroy every chatroom there is?
Alot of us came her to get away from this stuff..
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Post by gomer on Aug 29, 2022 9:10:38 GMT -8
The Pharisees were guilty of another form of legalism. They added their own laws to the law of God. Their “traditions” were raised to a status equal to the law of God. They robbed people of their liberty and put chains on them where God had left them free. That kind of legalism did not end with the Pharisees. It has also plagued the church in every generation. Another form of legalism is majoring on the minors. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for omitting the weightier matters of the law while they were scrupulous in obeying minor points. Jesus told them like it was: Matthew 23:23-2923.Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you give a tenth of your mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected and omitted the weightier (more important) matters of the Law—right and justice and mercy and fidelity. These you ought [particularly] to have done, without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, filtering out a gnat and gulping down a camel! [Lev. 27:30; Mic. 6:8.] 25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but within they are full of extortion (prey, spoil, plunder) and grasping self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and of the plate, so that the outside may be clean also. 27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you are like tombs that have been whitewashed, which look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything impure. 28 Just so, you also outwardly seem to people to be just and upright but inside you are full of pretense and lawlessness and iniquity. 29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, Hi, From what I posted in the OP, the term 'legalism' was coined about the same time Luther came up with His faith onlyism. Those that would not go along with 'faith only' were then called 'legalists' simply because they did not adhere to Luther's faith only idea. My point of this thread is to point out salvation is not by faith only but by obedience to God's will and specifically that obedience to God is NEVER called legalism in the Bible.In your post above you called the Pharisees 'legalists' for following their own traditions, putting their traditions ahead of God's word...and that is fine with me. But as you noted, the Pharisees were condemned for following their traditions, condemned for being hypocrites yet we do not find in the Bible where they were condemned for obeying God's will....again obeying God's will is never called 'legalism'. We can call their traditions and hypocrisy legalism but we can NEVER call any man's (Jew or Gentile) obedience to God's will legalism. Which again, the point of the thread is to show obedience to God's will is NOT called legalism in the Bible but called doing righteousness. If people want to call works of merit legalism or works of self-righteousness legalism that is fine but obedience to God's will is not legalism. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 29, 2022 9:30:06 GMT -8
There is no legalism in obeying Christ. The Holy Spirit does not obey for Christ man. Man must obey Christ himself and that obedience is never called legalism. You won`t get very far with God unless you try to obey Him. God is kind when you fail but everybody who knows God knows you have to obey Him if you want His help. Yes and my point of this thread is to expose the false notion that obedience to God is legalism. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 29, 2022 9:39:24 GMT -8
I quoted from the Bible, not Catholicism. From the text of Rom 11 God's people have always been those who obeyed Him....from the OT those who obeyed by not bowing to Baal, their obedience was not a work of merit. Those now who obey the gospel, as the remnant Jews who obeyed Acts 2:38, are God's people. And those Jews obedience to Acts 2:38 is not a work of merit. Clearly then the 'works' of Rom 11:6 cannot refer to obedience to God's will. Those who try and call obedience to God a work of merit will not have an accurate understanding of NT salvation. Obedience to God's will is not anywhere in the Bible called a "self-righteous deed". Noah building the ark was not a self righteous. Obedience to God is doing RIGHTEOUSNESS . You will have to find another line of argument for calling obedience a 'self-righteous deed' cannot be found in the Bible. For those who lived under the OT law, they did not have the blood of Christ to remit all their sins, they just the blood of bulls and goats that could not take away sins (Heb 10:1-3). So there was not, could not be a baptism for remission of sins under the OT law that was BEFORE Christ's death as their is today under the NT that is AFTER Christ's death. Those who lived under the OT law will be judged by that law and those who had a faithful obedience to that law had their sins remitted when Christ did die for His blood flowed backwards remitting the sins of those faithful OT characters (Heb 9:15). Again, please point out the verse where obeying God's will is called a self righteous deed. Did Jesus learn 'self righteous deeds' by the things which He suffered (Heb 5:8)? roman 11: 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable Your context of romans 11 is flawed.. Paul says Israel is to be beloved, concerning the election or promises given to the fathers. The OT will be judged by the same standard you are. Perfection.. If you have not kept that state (no one has) you must rely on the cross.. We are saved by grace period.. Rom 11 still says God's people (OT and NT) have always been those who obey Him, not those who try and do works of merit in trying to keep God's law perfectly. When Paul says all Israel will be saved, the Israel he is speaking about is spiritual Israel, the church. He cannot be talking about fleshly Israel for most of them were lost (Rom 10:1-3) having been cast off by God due to unbelief (Rom 11:20). Spiritual Israel, the church, is God's people for it is they who obey God and those in the church are those who have "put on Christ" (Gal 3:27) in baptism whereby they have put on Christ's perfect righteousness therefore seen by God THROUGH CHRIST as perfect even though Christians themselves are not perfect. Apart from Christ and wearing His perfect righteousness, one is lost. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 29, 2022 9:47:17 GMT -8
There is no legalism in obeying Christ. The Holy Spirit does not obey for Christ man. Man must obey Christ himself and that obedience is never called legalism. A non-legalist is one who believes in faith only for his salvation. A legalist is one who believes faith is not enough, he has to do something to add to that faith. That adding something could be demanding the Law or Commandments must be kept by his own doing, or maybe he must keep the Sabbath perfectly, maybe he has to attend Church regularly, etc, etc, it could be many things. A legalist is NOT depending wholly on Christ for his salvation, there is something he must always do along with his faith. For example, I can say I'm not a legalist! I believe that by Grace through faith in Christ I am justified and sanctified as a born-again Christian, and that alone. My ongoing sanctification is not of my doing anything! Through faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit is working in me to Christlikeness. All I do is what I know is right according to the Scripture, and when the Holy Spirit points out sin (and He will) I drop it. When He opens a door for me to perform good works, I just walk through that door, whatever it may be. Last week I was in Lowes, a guy walks by talking to himself, saying, "Jesus Christ what a mess." I turned and said, "is Jesus the Christ?" He says, "I don't know if there is a Christ." I then began to use scripture explaining to him who the Christ is, why He came to this earth, what He did, and what He is now doing. That was a door the Holy Spirit planned and prepared for me, only me. That's the way He works, that's what He does. Those are not my works, they are His! I just keep my eyes open for the open doors and do what I know He has prepared for me to do, that's all! I believe, as the BIble teaches, salvation is by obedience to God's will. The Bible NEVER calls obedience works of merit or "legalism". So how can YOU call me something that Bible DOES NOT?!?!?!? Which simply exposes the meaningless word 'legalism'. My point about the Holy Spirit is that the HS does not obey Christ's commands for men, men are to choose to obey Christ themselves and that obedience to Christ is not ever called legalism. |
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Post by gomer on Aug 29, 2022 9:50:27 GMT -8
Again, please point out the verse where obeying God's will is called a self righteous deed. I whole- heartedly agree ! Obeying God’s Will is NOT an act of “self-Righteousness”——-But ya gotta know what God’s Will ** IS** —— The Disciples flat-out Asked Jesus what was the “ Will Of God”......At this point in time , Jesus had the Golden Opportunity to “throw all of his cards on the Table”......Jesus could have said to Repent Of All Of your Sins....Jesus could have said Obey all of the Commandments.....He could have said to make sure you get water baptized.....There were thousands of things that He “Could” have said—— yet, the only thing that He **DID** say was This—-“BELIEVE on the One that He sent”.....it worked for me... Jesus did not say "believe only" to be saved. The verb believe includes repentance (Lk 13:3) confession (Mt 10:32-33) and baptism (Mk 16:16). ANd when one obeys by believing (and believing IS OBEDIENCE, Jn 3:36) that obedience in believing is not legalism. |
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Post by charlie24 on Aug 29, 2022 13:51:40 GMT -8
A non-legalist is one who believes in faith only for his salvation. A legalist is one who believes faith is not enough, he has to do something to add to that faith. That adding something could be demanding the Law or Commandments must be kept by his own doing, or maybe he must keep the Sabbath perfectly, maybe he has to attend Church regularly, etc, etc, it could be many things. A legalist is NOT depending wholly on Christ for his salvation, there is something he must always do along with his faith. For example, I can say I'm not a legalist! I believe that by Grace through faith in Christ I am justified and sanctified as a born-again Christian, and that alone. My ongoing sanctification is not of my doing anything! Through faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit is working in me to Christlikeness. All I do is what I know is right according to the Scripture, and when the Holy Spirit points out sin (and He will) I drop it. When He opens a door for me to perform good works, I just walk through that door, whatever it may be. Last week I was in Lowes, a guy walks by talking to himself, saying, "Jesus Christ what a mess." I turned and said, "is Jesus the Christ?" He says, "I don't know if there is a Christ." I then began to use scripture explaining to him who the Christ is, why He came to this earth, what He did, and what He is now doing. That was a door the Holy Spirit planned and prepared for me, only me. That's the way He works, that's what He does. Those are not my works, they are His! I just keep my eyes open for the open doors and do what I know He has prepared for me to do, that's all! I believe, as the BIble teaches, salvation is by obedience to God's will. The Bible NEVER calls obedience works of merit or "legalism". So how can YOU call me something that Bible DOES NOT?!?!?!? Which simply exposes the meaningless word 'legalism'. My point about the Holy Spirit is that the HS does not obey Christ's commands for men, men are to choose to obey Christ themselves and that obedience to Christ is not ever called legalism. As I have said, HOW you obey Christ will determine whether it's legalism. Every born-again believer wants of obey Christ! But if you are obeying because you have made that obeying a requirement to enter into the Kingdom of God, guess what? You have become a legalist! The acts of obedience are works, those works should be done in the proper way according to God's plan. Not the Old Testament way of Law. They didn't have the indwelling Holy Spirit as we have, and that is the game changer. We are no longer under Law, we are under Grace. |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 29, 2022 19:33:10 GMT -8
You won`t get very far with God unless you try to obey Him. God is kind when you fail but everybody who knows God knows you have to obey Him if you want His help. Yes and my point of this thread is to expose the false notion that obedience to God is legalism. Obedience is great.....the Problem arises when you try to supplant The Shed Blood Of Jesus on the Cross,which is the Only Thing That Saves a person with said “ Obedience”...... Turns out that the Song had it right all along , and I’ll say it again—-It really “ IS” NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD..... |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Aug 29, 2022 21:45:07 GMT -8
Alot of us came here to get away from this stuff..
Yeah, and I know that “ I” did...I did not think that “Accursed” Gospel Perverters would be permitted to Spread their “LEAVEN” in this new place....Apparently you prefer to “molly- coddle” Those That Paul clearly said to Eject.... “Cast Out” the Spiritual Descendants Of Hagar and Ishmael ....
“ All Of Those in Asia- Minor have deserted me” Paul lamented.....It was LEAVEN that destroyed so many of the Churches that he founded....”A little Leaven leavens the entire batch”...... and if you don’t think that it will happen HERE, you are sadly mistaken...
I am MUCH too bad a Sinner to say that I got anything in common with God......However, GOD *HATES* LEAVEN and so at least I ** DO** have “This” going for me ——-
I HATE it too!.....I simply can’t understand why he is allowed to teach his “ ACCURSED” and “ PERVERTED” so- called gospel in a place that I though was going to be different.....I also fail to understand why I am the only one in here that is not made LIVID by his “ Accursed” Gospel .....Don't you realize that “ Accursed” is just a polite way of saying “ God Damned?” .......or maybe you think that “I” am the one who Preaches That False Gospel.....
I think some in here need to “Decide This Day” who they are going to support and who they are going to expose—- for the sake of the Newbies to the Faith who might arrive here and not know any better, if nothing else....
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