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Post by gomer on Sept 7, 2022 5:10:43 GMT -8
Law breaking has not saved Anyone Truer words were never spoken......but it is also true that “ Law Keeping” never Saved anyone either.....that's because nobody can do it....may I suggest you go out and get some Grace that will cover your “ Law Breaking”, because you break the Laws Of God every hour of every day......wanna talk about the “ Sins Of Omission?” To be justified by the OT law, the OT law required the Jew to keep ALL the law perfectly, flawlessly yet the Jew could not keep the OT law perfectly therefore could not be justified by the OT law. Yet God did not require perfect flawless law keeping to be justified but a simple obedient faith where God would forgive when one failed to keep the law. There could be no justification apart from an obedient faith and an obedient faith is not legalism. |
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Post by gomer on Sept 7, 2022 5:19:56 GMT -8
salvation is impossible apart from obedience The Bible talks about “ The Obedience to the GOSPEL”.........concern yourself with “ THAT” one or the rest of your obedience will be a waste of time 2 Thess 1:8 says in flaming fire God will have vengeance upon those who OBEY NOT the gospel of Christ. Since lack of obedience puts one in flaming fire, then the logical conclusion is that obedience to the gospel is necessary to not be in flaming fire.....salvation is impossible apart from obedience...and obedience is not legalism. The idea that salvation is by works of merit or by faith only is a false dichotomy for it does not allow for what really does save, that being obedience. Hence Luther attacked the book of James calling it a straw epistle with James saying by works a man is justified. The type of works James says that justifies was obedience to God, not works of merit. |
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Post by Theophilus on Sept 7, 2022 6:42:02 GMT -8
It sounds like we're talking about “No-lordship salvation”. James Boice Has described it as a doctrine that reveals “the greatest weakness of contemporary evangelical Christianity in America.… It is a tragic error. It is the idea that one can be a Christian without being a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ.” Just walk down the aisle and say a little prayer BAM... you are saved. Then go back to living your life as normal.
As that teaching is often expressed: To be saved one must receive Christ as Savior. Receiving Christ as lord of one’s life is another matter. However commendable and desirable we might think it is to have Christ as the lord of one’s life, they maintain, that bears absolutely no relationship to the matter of one’s eternal salvation.
If Jesus is not Lord of our Life, then who is? Self! The bad news is self can't save you and self can't keep you.
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Post by gomer on Sept 7, 2022 8:11:53 GMT -8
It sounds like we're talking about “No-lordship salvation”. James Boice Has described it as a doctrine that reveals “the greatest weakness of contemporary evangelical Christianity in America.… It is a tragic error. It is the idea that one can be a Christian without being a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ.” Just walk down the aisle and say a little prayer BAM... you are saved. Then go back to living your life as normal. As that teaching is often expressed: To be saved one must receive Christ as Savior. Receiving Christ as lord of one’s life is another matter. However commendable and desirable we might think it is to have Christ as the lord of one’s life, they maintain, that bears absolutely no relationship to the matter of one’s eternal salvation. If Jesus is not Lord of our Life, then who is? Self! The bad news is self can't save you and self can't keep you. Hi, And the only way Jesus can be Lord of someone is by that someone obeying Jesus words (Lk 6:46). And the point of me starting this thread was to point out obedience is necessary to being saved and obedience to Jesus is not legalism. Faith onlyism and obedience are two things that do not mix. As far as the part where you posted " Just walk down the aisle and say a little prayer BAM... you are saved. Then go back to living your life as normal." This sounds like the end results of eternal security being taught. If after one is saved, and that salvation cannot be lost under any condition, then what matter would it make if one goes back to living life as normal? None. |
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Post by Theophilus on Sept 7, 2022 8:27:16 GMT -8
The thing is "Just walking down the aisle and saying a little prayer BAM... you are saved." Works about as good as a get-out-of-jail card free.
In reality Eternal Security and lordship salvation go hand-in-hand.
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Post by gomer on Sept 7, 2022 8:50:50 GMT -8
The thing is "Just walking down the aisle and saying a little prayer BAM... you are saved." Works about as good as a get-out-of-jail card free. In reality Eternal Security and lordship salvation go hand-in-hand. The term Lordship, as you appear to define it, requires a person to CONDITIONALLY live their life a certain way in following the Lord Jesus Christ. Eternal security on the other hand claims salvation is UNCONDITIONAL whereby one can then live anyway they please with loss of salvation being impossible. |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Sept 8, 2022 1:35:59 GMT -8
Does "nothing" eliminate grace? Faith? Repentance? Obedience? "Nothing" does not eliminate any of these things because apart from these things the blood of Christ does not save. “ Without the Shedding Of Blood, there is NO FORGIVENESS of Sins ! ” All those things that you mentioned—- Grace, Faith, etc, —- as Great and as Important as they are , they would never have even come into play had not Jesus Shed His Blood on the Cross ... ** BECAUSE** Christ Shed His Blood and took that Blood and sprinkled it atop the Heavenly Mercy Seat that resides in Heaven.....NOW Faith actually Means something and those that are Blessed with it can obtain the Grace of God That Saves them ...It was the Shed Blood Of Jesus plus NOTHING that set everything in motion as far as the Salvation Of man was concerned..... Jesus did not have to go to the Cross......He could have called down thousands of Angels to take Him from the Garden Of Gethsemane the night He was captured and He could have returned to Heaven without one word of apology... Jesus did NOT have to die for us and we surely did not Deserve it! It was a testimony of His Great Love for us that put Him on that Cross and kept Him there... No Cross meant no Sacrificial Blood....That meant that No Blood that would be applied to the Heavenly Mercy Seat .....That meant that God would still remember our Sins .....Because Of what Jesus did, God cannot See our Sins underneath that Mercy Seat Without first seeing the Shed Blood Of Jesus ....That Blood is what backs up the Salvation of every of man that has Faith.....Without That Blood ,nothing else would matter....that explains the Importance and the Truth Of “ NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD of JESUS”. When it comes to Salvation.... It’s gonna be a mighty interesting Day for you when you tell God that His Son’s Blood does not Save....good luck with that blasphemy ! Heb 2:9 Christ shed His blood for all men yet all men will not be saved for all men will not obey Christ, Heb 5:9. Therefore the blood of Christ does not save those who will not obey Christ. As I said in another thread.....Christ did Everything necessary for our Salvation as He Shed His Blood on the Cross—— it’s a FINISHED WORK.........all that “ we” have to do to be made Fit for Heaven is to “ Cash- In” on what Jesus already accomplished.......we do that by Resting in the Gospel Of 1Cor15: 1-4 |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Sept 8, 2022 2:00:17 GMT -8
Law breaking has not saved Anyone Truer words were never spoken......but it is also true that “ Law Keeping” never Saved anyone either.....that's because nobody can do it....may I suggest you go out and get some Grace that will cover your “ Law Breaking”, because you break the Laws Of God every hour of every day......wanna talk about the “ Sins Of Omission?” To be justified by the OT law, the OT law required the Jew to keep ALL the law perfectly, flawlessly yet the Jew could not keep the OT law perfectly therefore could not be justified by the OT law. Yet God did not require perfect flawless law keeping to be justified but a simple obedient faith where God would forgive when one failed to keep the law. There could be no justification apart from an obedient faith and an obedient faith is not legalism. ”Abraham BELIEVED God and his Faith was COUNTED unto him as Righteousness” .....in other words, he was “ justified” All the wicked Publican ( tax collector) had to do was to cry out to God, “Lord, have Mercy on me a Sinner!” It was enough to get him Saved—— Jesus said that he went home “ Justified” .......it worked for that guy....it worked for me....Anybody out there that has seen that they are a Sinner that MUST have a Savior? That is what the Bible calls the Conviction Of The Holy Spirit .....it’s the Starting Point Of Christianity.....it’s what God calls a “ Contrite Heart”—— it’s the ONLY kind that he can work with....That type of Heart should cause you to Turn to God like the Publican did.....If you do that you will be Saved....That is because God made a simple Promise that he can’t break....” Turn to Me and I will Turn to You!”.....That Promise Sure worked for me...as they used to say,” Try it — You’ll Like it!”.....Don’t complicate what God has made simple..... |
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Post by Theophilus on Sept 8, 2022 12:27:57 GMT -8
The thing is "Just walking down the aisle and saying a little prayer BAM... you are saved." Works about as good as a get-out-of-jail card free. In reality Eternal Security and lordship salvation go hand-in-hand. The term Lordship, as you appear to define it, requires a person to CONDITIONALLY live their life a certain way in following the Lord Jesus Christ. Eternal security on the other hand claims salvation is UNCONDITIONAL whereby one can then live anyway they please with loss of salvation being impossible. If Jesus is Lord of your life you will abide in Him. That is the condition , Therefore our condition is... In Him. Do that and your eternally secure. If you don't abide in Christ and He is not Lord of your life you're just not saved. You haven't been born again, your still in the flesh. Choose this day who your going serve. Today is the day of your salvation. If you want to serve your flesh ...then you're not abiding in Christ. You don't have any salvation to lose. |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Sept 9, 2022 1:08:38 GMT -8
. There could be no justification apart from an obedient faith and an obedient faith is not legalism.
The only way that a Jew that lived in the Age Of Law could get his Sins and trespasses forgiven was to put his Faith in the Shed Blood of an innocent.....does that ring a bell? .......It should.......it’s exactly the same way we get “ our” sins forgiven ——-
The big difference though is that the Old Testament Jew got his sins “ remitted” ( the sin - covering was for a year) whereas we get “ our” Sins “ Blotted Out”, and even “ FORGOTTEN “ forever......
All the billions Of sheep an goats, etc . That were sacrificed when the Temple Worship system was being utilized was a “Picture” or a “ Shadow” Of The *FINISHED* and *ONE TIME* Sacrifice of Christ.....
Nobody here is saying that “obedient Faith” is Legalism.......Legalism is saying that Obeying the Commandments is how we get to Heaven......One gets to Heaven by Trusting Jesus to Save them...Simply Believe Paul’s Gospel Of 1Cor.15:1-4 ( Given to Paul by Jesus personally) and God will put His Holy Spirit in you.....let that Spirit hang around long enough and “ obedience” will have a tendency to follow....the Gap between you becoming a better person , yet you not actually reaching perfection yet , is covered by the Grace of God.... No Sin can Damn you....you’re Covered....If you think that now that your sins are Covered by Grace, you can go out and “ sin and get away with it”—— you are certainly free to give that a shot....lol.....have fun in God's “ Wood- Shed” ..... you’ ll Abandon “ That” B.S. notion pretty quickly.....God will Chastise His Foolish Children—- Count on it !
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Sept 9, 2022 1:54:22 GMT -8
It sounds like we're talking about “No-lordship salvation”. James Boice Has described it as a doctrine that reveals “the greatest weakness of contemporary evangelical Christianity in America.… It is a tragic error. It is the idea that one can be a Christian without being a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ.” Just walk down the aisle and say a little prayer BAM... you are saved. Then go back to living your life as normal. As that teaching is often expressed: To be saved one must receive Christ as Savior. Receiving Christ as lord of one’s life is another matter. However commendable and desirable we might think it is to have Christ as the lord of one’s life, they maintain, that bears absolutely no relationship to the matter of one’s eternal salvation. If Jesus is not Lord of our Life, then who is? Self! The bad news is self can't save you and self can't keep you. Hi, And the only way Jesus can be Lord of someone is by that someone obeying Jesus words (Lk 6:46). And the point of me starting this thread was to point out obedience is necessary to being saved and obedience to Jesus is not legalism. Faith onlyism and obedience are two things that do not mix. As far as the part where you posted " Just walk down the aisle and say a little prayer BAM... you are saved. Then go back to living your life as normal." This sounds like the end results of eternal security being taught. If after one is saved, and that salvation cannot be lost under any condition, then what matter would it make if one goes back to living life as normal? None. Q How do you define “free grace” theology and do you believe it is biblical? I believe Lordship Salvation is unbiblical as I understand it but the other side of the spectrum is “free grace” and I am unclear on how it lines up with scripture as it is defined by its proponents. I fully believe that God’s grace is given to us freely irrespective of our merit but I don’t want to label myself as “free grace” if that means I am one who thinks I can live any way I want because that is not the case. Does this make sense? I am lazy tonight...some in these Forums get their Panties in a knot when somebody does a “ Cut and Paste” like I am doing here....I couldn’t care less.... Strictly speaking, we’re saved by grace through faith alone (Ephes 2:8-9), and our salvation was guaranteed from the moment we believed (Ephes 1:13-14). God has accepted responsibility for us, put His mark of ownership on us and His spirit in our hearts as a deposit guaranteeing this (2 Cor. 1:21-22). He has also forgiven all of our sins (Col. 2:13-14) and made us a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17), as righteous as He is (2 Cor. 5:21), and perfect forever (Hebr. 10:14) in His sight. Therefore we could live any way we want to, because from His perspective we’ve already been raised up and seated with Him in the heavenly realms (Ephes. 2:6-7) and nothing can change that (Romans 8:38-39). But in the mean time, we know that He wants us to live up to what we’ve already attained (Phil 3:16). So how do we want to live? Lordship salvation inserts a degree of obligation into this answer, saying we have to give evidence of our salvation by the way we live. No evidence equals no salvation. This can cause us to live in fear that we’re not doing enough. But free grace relies on gratitude alone as the motivation to live the life God wants us to live. This gives us the freedom to please God without worrying about what others may think. I think most people would say that having the freedom to do as we please, but choosing to live in a way that pleases God, following the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the purest demonstration of our gratitude because there’s no obligation to do so. |
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Post by bloodbought1953 on Sept 9, 2022 3:01:29 GMT -8
The thing is "Just walking down the aisle and saying a little prayer BAM... you are saved." Works about as good as a get-out-of-jail card free. In reality Eternal Security and lordship salvation go hand-in-hand. “Walking down an aisle” is Waaaaay too much effort! One does not need to do that much in order to get Saved! I was lying on my Couch 50 years ago when I got Saved ......The Holy Spirit Paid me a visit one terrible night with a real conviction of sin....I had always thought that even though I was not “ perfect” I was still “ good enough” to make it to Heaven—- after all, “Hell” is for alll those guys out in the Penitentiary, right? Well , the Holy Spirit showed me the True Wretch That I was and that I was a Sinner headed for a well-deserved Hell like a speeding bullet! This is the place where God wants us to arrive....we will never ask the Savior to Save us until we see the need for it...This “Conviction Of Sin” might be a terrifying thing ( work out your Salvation with Fear and Trembling) But it is a Necessary Thing .....The One Sin That MUST be Repented Of is the Sin Of “ Self- Righteousness” .....One is Guilty of that Sin if he has not seen the absolute Necessity Of “Turning to God with Faith in Jesus Christ” in order to be Saved..... The Conviction Of Sin is the “ Starting Gate” Of Christianity.....If you have not undergone that Conviction and if you have not have your Heart turned into a “ Contrite” Heart, you simply do not have a Heart that God will deal with..... I was blessed to get delivered from the “Fool’s Paradise” Of Thinking That I was “ Good Enough” to Merit Heaven Simply because I was not a rapist or a murderer....Once I saw the Truth Of my Wretchedness before a Holy God, all that was left for me to do was to emulate the Publican Of Luke18:10.....All I could do is cry out, “ Lord, have Mercy on me, a Sinner”......Jesus said that reviled and hated man of the Jewish World “ Went home Justified”......I got ”Justified” That very night on my couch...no “walking down an aisle” was involved.....God made a PROMISE that if we would simply “ Turn to Him”, He in turn would “Turn to Us”....... This story about the Saved Publican is put in contrast to the mind- set of the Pharisee....That Pharisee was too pre- occupied in his Boasting off his “ Law-Keeping” Performance to see the Truth Of His Lost Condition......He was like I used to be before I was given “ eyes to see”...He thought that he was “ Worthy” Of Salvation because of his “ Commandment Keeping” and “Morality” Jesus story makes it clear that if you want “ Justification” — a Necessity Of Salvation—-You have no choice other than to come before Him without All Of your rationalizations and pretenses and your Sin Of “ self- Righteousness” and come to Him as the Lost Sinner that you are—— in Spite if your church attendance, tithing, Good Deeds, supposed “ Commandment Keeping” , baptisms, repenting from sins, etc...... Many In our Churches and in these Forums still have a “ Pharisaic” attitude.....They still Live in Satan’s “Fools Paradise” Where the voice of Satan soothes them—— telling them that that are “A-OK”........That Hell-Bound Guy? Pffftttt.... That ain’t YOU....You are just fine with God....You ain’t perfect , but you are “ good enough” to Merit Heaven because after all....you are a “Good Guy”...... Many so- called “Christians” need to Repent Of the One Sin that we All have until we see the Absolute Necessity for Crying out to God as the once Lost, But now Justified Publican did—— that Sin Of Self- Righteousness.....until that is taken care of, you have not even entered the “ Starting Gate” Of True Christianity.....you are just like the Unsaved World—- “Blinded by Satan”..... |
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Post by gomer on Sept 9, 2022 3:56:27 GMT -8
Heb 2:9 Christ shed His blood for all men yet all men will not be saved for all men will not obey Christ, Heb 5:9. Therefore the blood of Christ does not save those who will not obey Christ. As I said in another thread.....Christ did Everything necessary for our Salvation as He Shed His Blood on the Cross—— it’s a FINISHED WORK.........all that “ we” have to do to be made Fit for Heaven is to “ Cash- In” on what Jesus already accomplished.......we do that by Resting in the Gospel Of 1Cor15: 1-4 "it is finished"....Christ was speaking about the works God gave Him to do in coming to earth, he was not speaking of man's work in obeying Him (Heb 5:9) and keeping Christ's works (Rev 2:26). Where a man will be in eternity is determined by his works, (Rom 2:6-10; Rev 22:12). |
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Post by gomer on Sept 9, 2022 4:07:39 GMT -8
To be justified by the OT law, the OT law required the Jew to keep ALL the law perfectly, flawlessly yet the Jew could not keep the OT law perfectly therefore could not be justified by the OT law. Yet God did not require perfect flawless law keeping to be justified but a simple obedient faith where God would forgive when one failed to keep the law. There could be no justification apart from an obedient faith and an obedient faith is not legalism. ”Abraham BELIEVED God and his Faith was COUNTED unto him as Righteousness” .....in other words, he was “ justified” All the wicked Publican ( tax collector) had to do was to cry out to God, “Lord, have Mercy on me a Sinner!” It was enough to get him Saved—— Jesus said that he went home “ Justified” .......it worked for that guy....it worked for me....Anybody out there that has seen that they are a Sinner that MUST have a Savior? That is what the Bible calls the Conviction Of The Holy Spirit .....it’s the Starting Point Of Christianity.....it’s what God calls a “ Contrite Heart”—— it’s the ONLY kind that he can work with....That type of Heart should cause you to Turn to God like the Publican did.....If you do that you will be Saved....That is because God made a simple Promise that he can’t break....” Turn to Me and I will Turn to You!”.....That Promise Sure worked for me...as they used to say,” Try it — You’ll Like it!”.....Don’t complicate what God has made simple..... Abraham was justified by obedient works as was Rahab, James 2. Abraham was already in a saved, covenant relationship with God prior to Gen 15:6. ----------- The parable of the Pharisee and publican is a parable about having humility, not a parable on how men today are saved. The publican is not an example of NT salvation for he lived before the NT gospel came into effect, (Heb 9:15-16). Both men were Jews in coming to the temple to pray so they were already children of God by the physical birth. Under the OT law, it took a physical birth into a family with ties to Abraham to be in an OT covenant relationship with God. So these men are not examples for us today in how we get into a NT covenant relationship with God by a spiritual rebirth ny being water baptized |
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Post by gomer on Sept 9, 2022 4:10:32 GMT -8
The term Lordship, as you appear to define it, requires a person to CONDITIONALLY live their life a certain way in following the Lord Jesus Christ. Eternal security on the other hand claims salvation is UNCONDITIONAL whereby one can then live anyway they please with loss of salvation being impossible. If Jesus is Lord of your life you will abide in Him. That is the condition , Therefore our condition is... In Him. Do that and your eternally secure. If you don't abide in Christ and He is not Lord of your life you're just not saved. You haven't been born again, your still in the flesh. Choose this day who your going serve. Today is the day of your salvation. If you want to serve your flesh ...then you're not abiding in Christ. You don't have any salvation to lose. As long as one is CONDITIONALLY 'in Christ" and faithfully remains in Christ he will be saved but for those who become unfaithful and fall from Christ and remain apart from Christ will not be saved. |
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