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Post by gomer on Sept 9, 2022 4:19:20 GMT -8
. There could be no justification apart from an obedient faith and an obedient faith is not legalism. The only way that a Jew that lived in the Age Of Law could get his Sins and trespasses forgiven was to put his Faith in the Shed Blood of an innocent.....does that ring a bell? .......It should.......it’s exactly the same way we get “ our” sins forgiven ——- The big difference though is that the Old Testament Jew got his sins “ remitted” ( the sin - covering was for a year) whereas we get “ our” Sins “ Blotted Out”, and even “ FORGOTTEN “ forever...... All the billions Of sheep an goats, etc . That were sacrificed when the Temple Worship system was being utilized was a “Picture” or a “ Shadow” Of The *FINISHED* and *ONE TIME* Sacrifice of Christ..... Nobody here is saying that “obedient Faith” is Legalism.......Legalism is saying that Obeying the Commandments is how we get to Heaven......One gets to Heaven by Trusting Jesus to Save them...Simply Believe Paul’s Gospel Of 1Cor.15:1-4 ( Given to Paul by Jesus personally) and God will put His Holy Spirit in you.....let that Spirit hang around long enough and “ obedience” will have a tendency to follow....the Gap between you becoming a better person , yet you not actually reaching perfection yet , is covered by the Grace of God.... No Sin can Damn you....you’re Covered....If you think that now that your sins are Covered by Grace, you can go out and “ sin and get away with it”—— you are certainly free to give that a shot....lol.....have fun in God's “ Wood- Shed” ..... you’ ll Abandon “ That” B.S. notion pretty quickly.....God will Chastise His Foolish Children—- Count on it ! It takes obedience to God to have sins blotted out and forgiven....no obedience = no forgiveness. And there are those on various forums I have encountered who claim obedience is a work whereby one is trying to earn salvation therefore refer to obedience as legalism for obedience is the antithesis of their belief of faith onlyism. |
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Post by gomer on Sept 9, 2022 4:22:52 GMT -8
Hi, And the only way Jesus can be Lord of someone is by that someone obeying Jesus words (Lk 6:46). And the point of me starting this thread was to point out obedience is necessary to being saved and obedience to Jesus is not legalism. Faith onlyism and obedience are two things that do not mix. As far as the part where you posted " Just walk down the aisle and say a little prayer BAM... you are saved. Then go back to living your life as normal." This sounds like the end results of eternal security being taught. If after one is saved, and that salvation cannot be lost under any condition, then what matter would it make if one goes back to living life as normal? None. Strictly speaking, we’re saved by grace through faith alone (Ephes 2:8-9), The word 'alone' is not in the text, it has been ADDED by men to force their theological bias into the verse. |
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Post by Theophilus on Sept 9, 2022 5:21:36 GMT -8
gomerThe term Lordship, as you appear to define it, requires a person to CONDITIONALLY live their life a certain way in following the Lord Jesus Christ. Eternal security on the other hand claims salvation is UNCONDITIONAL whereby one can then live anyway they please with loss of salvation being impossible.
Correct except for one small point. Those that will not be saved were never faithful and never in Christ. They were never truly Saved. They only thought they had fire insurance. They didn't believe in their heart...They only gave lip service. Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. What saves us? For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.—John 3:16–17 What keeps a man from perishing? Jesus did not cite for Nicodemus a list of sins and then add, “As long as a man keeps himself from these, he will not perish.” His only condition was belief in Him. Notice His next words: He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.—John 3:18 There for those who fall away, those who turned back never really believed. According to Jesus, what must a person do to keep from being judged for sin? Must he stop doing something? Must he promise to stop doing something? Must he have never done something? The answer is so simple that many stumble all over it without ever seeing it. All Jesus requires is that the individual “believe in” Him. Think about this a little further, ask yourself a sobering question: “Do I believe I have the power to thwart the purposes of God?” Once God has made up His mind, He is going to do something, do you think you have the power to throw a wrench into the works and foul things up? To believe that a man or woman can lose his or her salvation is to believe that a human being can frustrate the eternal purpose of God. God has plans for all those who were dead in their trespasses and sins and have been made alive with Christ. To hold to a theology in which man can do something that throws him back into a state of spiritual deadness, thus denying God His predetermined purpose, is to embrace a system in which man is in the driver’s seat and God is just a passenger. I personally have never met anyone powerful enough to undo what God has done. I actually don't think such a person exists.
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yacker
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by yacker on Sept 9, 2022 16:04:28 GMT -8
If Jesus is Lord of your life you will abide in Him. That is the condition , Therefore our condition is... In Him. Do that and your eternally secure. If you don't abide in Christ and He is not Lord of your life you're just not saved. You haven't been born again, your still in the flesh. Choose this day who your going serve. Today is the day of your salvation. If you want to serve your flesh ...then you're not abiding in Christ. You don't have any salvation to lose. As long as one is CONDITIONALLY 'in Christ" and faithfully remains in Christ he will be saved but for those who become unfaithful and fall from Christ and remain apart from Christ will not be saved. Quite a lie you have brought in through your "conditions", didn't see that condition put on the thief on the cross, it wasn't get on down and clean yourself up and prove your obedient, remain and you might see paradise, the thief said said "this man has done nothing wrong" I wonder if he knew the weight of his testimony, Can you imagine a child saying to there dad, I will try and keep believing your are dad and will try real hard to remain in you so you can still be my daddy and not burn me in the fire and kill me for the problem you told me you told me you have have already fixed, Children don't talk like that about their parents they love Have you heard "and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." If you are a man that includes you, there is someone who isn't a man that accuses the same, if only he can make God a liar he could win but nevertheless Gods word cannot be broken John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. You cannot become unborn spiritually, no man can take them out of Gods hands, And the spirit will never leave them or forsake them, The way someone remains in Christ is to be birthed into him, its done sealed cant be undone, unless you think God makes mistakes and something we do can surprise him later on |
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Post by gomer on Sept 10, 2022 7:11:30 GMT -8
gomerThe term Lordship, as you appear to define it, requires a person to CONDITIONALLY live their life a certain way in following the Lord Jesus Christ. Eternal security on the other hand claims salvation is UNCONDITIONAL whereby one can then live anyway they please with loss of salvation being impossible.
Correct except for one small point. Those that will not be saved were never faithful and never in Christ. They were never truly Saved. They only thought they had fire insurance. They didn't believe in their heart...They only gave lip service. Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. What saves us? For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.—John 3:16–17 What keeps a man from perishing? Jesus did not cite for Nicodemus a list of sins and then add, “As long as a man keeps himself from these, he will not perish.” His only condition was belief in Him. Notice His next words: He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.—John 3:18 There for those who fall away, those who turned back never really believed. According to Jesus, what must a person do to keep from being judged for sin? Must he stop doing something? Must he promise to stop doing something? Must he have never done something? The answer is so simple that many stumble all over it without ever seeing it. All Jesus requires is that the individual “believe in” Him. Think about this a little further, ask yourself a sobering question: “Do I believe I have the power to thwart the purposes of God?” Once God has made up His mind, He is going to do something, do you think you have the power to throw a wrench into the works and foul things up? To believe that a man or woman can lose his or her salvation is to believe that a human being can frustrate the eternal purpose of God. God has plans for all those who were dead in their trespasses and sins and have been made alive with Christ. To hold to a theology in which man can do something that throws him back into a state of spiritual deadness, thus denying God His predetermined purpose, is to embrace a system in which man is in the driver’s seat and God is just a passenger. I personally have never met anyone powerful enough to undo what God has done. I actually don't think such a person exists. People believe by free will choice therefore can quit believing by that same volition. And there is nothing in the Bible that says one who quit believing "never did really believe"...that would be an assumption. This is why in Jn 3:16 the verb "should not perish" is in the subjunctive mood, which is a mood of possibility or potential that some thing may or may not happen based upon circumstances....that means one may or may not perish based upon the circumstance if he continues to believe or not. If one quits believing, then his quitting proves he never did really believe? If one quits smoking, his quitting proves he never did really smoke? In order for one to quit doing some thing logically implies one must have first been engaged in it in order to quit it.....one cannot quit some thing he never started. Heb 4:11 " Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." The word 'fall' carries the idea of a change in position...I fall from a tree, then my location changed from being in the tree to now being on the ground. A person who has always been lost cannot fall for he is already fallen...his position has not changed he was lost and still is lost. Nor can one fall from unbelief into unbelief. The term 'fall' therefore refers to those who were in belief but fell from that position to a position of unbelief. The fact that eternal life is a conditional promise does not in any way thwart God's purposes for God never purposed that eternal life be an UNconditional gift to man regardless of how man lives his life. God made the promise of eternal life conditional upon man living an obedient, godly life. It was God's purpose to make Israel His children, which God did. Yet Israel disobeyed to the point God disinherited them, cast them off, they were no longer His children. The Jews were God's children yet they disobeyed and God threatened to disinherit them (Num 14:12) and make another, greater nation. Yet the Jews continued to disobey and as a result God said they would no longer be His people (Hosea 1:10), God said of fleshly Israel " for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more" (Hosea 9:15). This was fully realized when the Messiah came to earth and the Jews rejected Him, and God cast off fleshly Israel (Rom 11) ending the covenant relationship, God was no longer their God and they were no longer His children...." for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God" (Hosea 1:9). In a discourse Jesus had with the Jews, He told them they were of their father the devil (Jn 8:44). Though the Jews were cast off and no longer God's children, God still made salvation available to them thru Christ and a "remnant" of Jews obeyed God in Acts 2 whereby God became those Jews Father. Even though a person's biological father cannot change but spiritually one's father can change as it did for the Jews. God was their Father, then the devil but for the few 'remnant' Jews who obeyed, God became their Father. Christians are sons of God by adoption, and in adoptions ownership can be transferred to another. Before men become Christians, men are lost and are the sons of Satan, but when men become Christians their spiritual Father becomes God. If "once a son, always a son" were true, then no man can be saved for once a son of Satan, always a son of Satan. In Rom 11, we see God cast off the Jews and grafted in the Gentiles. But God warned the Gentiles "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." If the Gentiles rebelled against God as the Jews, then God would not spare the Gentiles either, they would be cast off as the Jews and the devil would become their father as he was for the Jews (Jn 8:44). (also 1 Jn 3:8-10). Rom 8:12-14 those who are sons of God are those who are led by the Spirit. If the Gentiles, as the Jews, rebelled against God then they are no longer led by the Spirit and do not qualify to be sons of God. |
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Post by gomer on Sept 10, 2022 7:31:05 GMT -8
As long as one is CONDITIONALLY 'in Christ" and faithfully remains in Christ he will be saved but for those who become unfaithful and fall from Christ and remain apart from Christ will not be saved. Quite a lie you have brought in through your "conditions", didn't see that condition put on the thief on the cross, it wasn't get on down and clean yourself up and prove your obedient, remain and you might see paradise, the thief said said "this man has done nothing wrong" I wonder if he knew the weight of his testimony, Can you imagine a child saying to there dad, I will try and keep believing your are dad and will try real hard to remain in you so you can still be my daddy and not burn me in the fire and kill me for the problem you told me you told me you have have already fixed, Children don't talk like that about their parents they love Have you heard "and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." If you are a man that includes you, there is someone who isn't a man that accuses the same, if only he can make God a liar he could win but nevertheless Gods word cannot be broken John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. You cannot become unborn spiritually, no man can take them out of Gods hands, And the spirit will never leave them or forsake them, The way someone remains in Christ is to be birthed into him, its done sealed cant be undone, unless you think God makes mistakes and something we do can surprise him later on The Bible does not lie. We today are under the NT gospel unlike the thief who lived under the OT law, and the NT requires one must be "in Christ" to be saved. Being "in Christ" is what it means to be a Christian, in Christ there is no condemnation (Rom 8:1-2), in Christ is where saving grace is only found (2 Tim 2:1). Therefore salvation for us today is IMPOSSIBLE outside of Christ. The church located at Ephesus had left Christ (Rev 2:1-7) and if they did not repent their candlestick/church would be removed and they would be lost, no longer recognized by God as His church. For the thief, he lived at a very unique time when Christ was on earth in person. Matt 9:6, when Christ was ON EARTH He had been given the authority to forgive the sins of those whom He thought were deserving as the thief. Therefore no one today can be saved as the thief because he did not live under the NT gospel (Heb 9:15-16) that requires one be a Christian in Christ. Nor is Christ on earth today personally forgiving the sins of men. Men today can only find salvation IN CHRIST under the NT. =================== Jn 10:27-28 being in God's hand CONDITIONALLY requires one to be a sheep of Christ. Being a sheep of Christ CONDITIONALLY requires one to have an ongoing sustained hearing and following of Christ. Being in God's hand therefore is not UNconditional but 100% conditional for if one quits hearing and following one is no longer a sheep of Christ and will no longer be in God's hand. One cannot become a Christian, a sheep of Christ but then live as one pleases and still be saved. One must CONDITIONALLY live a life of hearing and following Christ. In order to have the present tense eternal life, one must also have a present tense hearing and following. =================== John 14:15 Jesus was speaking to His Apostles, therefore the promise of the Comforter was not to anyone today and has no bearing on this subject. =================== Christians are Christians by adoption and adoptions can be changed. |
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Post by Theophilus on Sept 10, 2022 11:19:12 GMT -8
gomerThe term Lordship, as you appear to define it, requires a person to CONDITIONALLY live their life a certain way in following the Lord Jesus Christ. Eternal security on the other hand claims salvation is UNCONDITIONAL whereby one can then live anyway they please with loss of salvation being impossible.
Correct except for one small point. Those that will not be saved were never faithful and never in Christ. They were never truly Saved. They only thought they had fire insurance. They didn't believe in their heart...They only gave lip service. Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. What saves us? For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.—John 3:16–17 What keeps a man from perishing? Jesus did not cite for Nicodemus a list of sins and then add, “As long as a man keeps himself from these, he will not perish.” His only condition was belief in Him. Notice His next words: He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.—John 3:18 There for those who fall away, those who turned back never really believed. According to Jesus, what must a person do to keep from being judged for sin? Must he stop doing something? Must he promise to stop doing something? Must he have never done something? The answer is so simple that many stumble all over it without ever seeing it. All Jesus requires is that the individual “believe in” Him. Think about this a little further, ask yourself a sobering question: “Do I believe I have the power to thwart the purposes of God?” Once God has made up His mind, He is going to do something, do you think you have the power to throw a wrench into the works and foul things up? To believe that a man or woman can lose his or her salvation is to believe that a human being can frustrate the eternal purpose of God. God has plans for all those who were dead in their trespasses and sins and have been made alive with Christ. To hold to a theology in which man can do something that throws him back into a state of spiritual deadness, thus denying God His predetermined purpose, is to embrace a system in which man is in the driver’s seat and God is just a passenger. I personally have never met anyone powerful enough to undo what God has done. I actually don't think such a person exists. People believe by free will choice therefore can quit believing by that same volition. And there is nothing in the Bible that says one who quit believing "never did really believe"...that would be an assumption. This is why in Jn 3:16 the verb "should not perish" is in the subjunctive mood, which is a mood of possibility or potential that some thing may or may not happen based upon circumstances....that means one may or may not perish based upon the circumstance if he continues to believe or not. If one quits believing, then his quitting proves he never did really believe? If one quits smoking, his quitting proves he never did really smoke? In order for one to quit doing some thing logically implies one must have first been engaged in it in order to quit it.....one cannot quit some thing he never started. Heb 4:11 " Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." The word 'fall' carries the idea of a change in position...I fall from a tree, then my location changed from being in the tree to now being on the ground. A person who has always been lost cannot fall for he is already fallen...his position has not changed he was lost and still is lost. Nor can one fall from unbelief into unbelief. The term 'fall' therefore refers to those who were in belief but fell from that position to a position of unbelief. The fact that eternal life is a conditional promise does not in any way thwart God's purposes for God never purposed that eternal life be an UNconditional gift to man regardless of how man lives his life. God made the promise of eternal life conditional upon man living an obedient, godly life. It was God's purpose to make Israel His children, which God did. Yet Israel disobeyed to the point God disinherited them, cast them off, they were no longer His children. The Jews were God's children yet they disobeyed and God threatened to disinherit them (Num 14:12) and make another, greater nation. Yet the Jews continued to disobey and as a result God said they would no longer be His people (Hosea 1:10), God said of fleshly Israel " for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more" (Hosea 9:15). This was fully realized when the Messiah came to earth and the Jews rejected Him, and God cast off fleshly Israel (Rom 11) ending the covenant relationship, God was no longer their God and they were no longer His children...." for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God" (Hosea 1:9). In a discourse Jesus had with the Jews, He told them they were of their father the devil (Jn 8:44). Though the Jews were cast off and no longer God's children, God still made salvation available to them thru Christ and a "remnant" of Jews obeyed God in Acts 2 whereby God became those Jews Father. Even though a person's biological father cannot change but spiritually one's father can change as it did for the Jews. God was their Father, then the devil but for the few 'remnant' Jews who obeyed, God became their Father. Christians are sons of God by adoption, and in adoptions ownership can be transferred to another. Before men become Christians, men are lost and are the sons of Satan, but when men become Christians their spiritual Father becomes God. If "once a son, always a son" were true, then no man can be saved for once a son of Satan, always a son of Satan. In Rom 11, we see God cast off the Jews and grafted in the Gentiles. But God warned the Gentiles "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." If the Gentiles rebelled against God as the Jews, then God would not spare the Gentiles either, they would be cast off as the Jews and the devil would become their father as he was for the Jews (Jn 8:44). (also 1 Jn 3:8-10). Rom 8:12-14 those who are sons of God are those who are led by the Spirit. If the Gentiles, as the Jews, rebelled against God then they are no longer led by the Spirit and do not qualify to be sons of God. So john 3:16 to you is "shoulda woulda coulda"? WOW I'm speechless. "In order for one to quit doing some thing logically implies one must have first been engaged in it in order to quit it.....one cannot quit some thing he never started."Exactly... Can't stop believing in Jesus if you've never really started. The bad news is you're going to be smoking for eternity and I'm not talking about in the boys room. |
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yacker
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by yacker on Sept 10, 2022 15:34:37 GMT -8
The Bible does not lie. We today are under the NT gospel unlike the thief who lived under the OT law, and the NT requires one must be "in Christ" to be saved. Being "in Christ" is what it means to be a Christian, in Christ there is no condemnation (Rom 8:1-2), in Christ is where saving grace is only found (2 Tim 2:1). Therefore salvation for us today is IMPOSSIBLE outside of Christ. The church located at Ephesus had left Christ (Rev 2:1-7) and if they did not repent their candlestick/church would be removed and they would be lost, no longer recognized by God as His church. For the thief, he lived at a very unique time when Christ was on earth in person. Matt 9:6, when Christ was ON EARTH He had been given the authority to forgive the sins of those whom He thought were deserving as the thief. Therefore no one today can be saved as the thief because he did not live under the NT gospel (Heb 9:15-16) that requires one be a Christian in Christ. Nor is Christ on earth today personally forgiving the sins of men. Men today can only find salvation IN CHRIST under the NT. =================== Jn 10:27-28 being in God's hand CONDITIONALLY requires one to be a sheep of Christ. Being a sheep of Christ CONDITIONALLY requires one to have an ongoing sustained hearing and following of Christ. Being in God's hand therefore is not UNconditional but 100% conditional for if one quits hearing and following one is no longer a sheep of Christ and will no longer be in God's hand. One cannot become a Christian, a sheep of Christ but then live as one pleases and still be saved. One must CONDITIONALLY live a life of hearing and following Christ. In order to have the present tense eternal life, one must also have a present tense hearing and following. =================== John 14:15 Jesus was speaking to His Apostles, therefore the promise of the Comforter was not to anyone today and has no bearing on this subject. =================== Christians are Christians by adoption and adoptions can be changed. Strange way to start but "let God be true and every man a liar" so that's where you stand, First what is required in the NT to be saved is that you must be born again, Second you cant put yourself in Jesus so that's not your doing, Salvation is "Jesus in you" as a gift, God is Salvation and only God has immortality If you understood the NT you wouldn't be discussing working for and losing salvation, as you don't work to receive Jesus it is given as a gift, The gift of righteousness The gift of eternal life, The gift of Salvation The Gift of God himself God purchased the church with his own blood, When the blood is applied to someone they are born again spiritually, there sins are gone, they become the righteousness of God in Christ, They are his workmanship for his glory so when you hear "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" You should understand that when someone becomes a born again child of God they are his possession he will complete it and he will get them home and all for his glory But hey can you go cant back into your mothers womb and become unborn, its absurd as saying a man can carnally undo the spiritual birth God has done, You obviously don't understand the new birth but if you are honest, Jesus said he would give the born again the Holy spirit that would never leave them or forsake them, If a born again was sent to hell like you propose would God have to take his spirit away from them or throw the Holy spirit in hell, Both are impossible and as you said the Bible doesn't lie so the problem lye's in your understanding, man cannot undo what God has done and said he will complete |
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Post by Parker on Sept 10, 2022 16:00:32 GMT -8
How a Christian can Lose SalvationThe 14 step plan. By Pastor David F. Reagan. Used with permission from Learn the Bible. Definitively answers the question: "Once saved, always saved?" Well, if you are going to lose your salvation (just bear with me if you want to keep yours), then you must lose it according to the rules. The rule book is, of course, the word of God. You must not rely on feelings, or common sense, or human reasoning. Feelings can be wrong. Human thinking may not be God’s way (Isaiah 55:8-9). Only God’s Word is the absolute authority.
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Post by Aeliana on Sept 10, 2022 16:32:19 GMT -8
How a Christian can Lose SalvationThe 14 step plan. By Pastor David F. Reagan. Used with permission from Learn the Bible. Definitively answers the question: "Once saved, always saved?" Well, if you are going to lose your salvation (just bear with me if you want to keep yours), then you must lose it according to the rules. The rule book is, of course, the word of God. You must not rely on feelings, or common sense, or human reasoning. Feelings can be wrong. Human thinking may not be God’s way (Isaiah 55:8-9). Only God’s Word is the absolute authority. Can you lose your salvation? What about the warning passages? |
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Post by gomer on Sept 11, 2022 4:40:08 GMT -8
People believe by free will choice therefore can quit believing by that same volition. And there is nothing in the Bible that says one who quit believing "never did really believe"...that would be an assumption. This is why in Jn 3:16 the verb "should not perish" is in the subjunctive mood, which is a mood of possibility or potential that some thing may or may not happen based upon circumstances....that means one may or may not perish based upon the circumstance if he continues to believe or not. If one quits believing, then his quitting proves he never did really believe? If one quits smoking, his quitting proves he never did really smoke? In order for one to quit doing some thing logically implies one must have first been engaged in it in order to quit it.....one cannot quit some thing he never started. Heb 4:11 " Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." The word 'fall' carries the idea of a change in position...I fall from a tree, then my location changed from being in the tree to now being on the ground. A person who has always been lost cannot fall for he is already fallen...his position has not changed he was lost and still is lost. Nor can one fall from unbelief into unbelief. The term 'fall' therefore refers to those who were in belief but fell from that position to a position of unbelief. The fact that eternal life is a conditional promise does not in any way thwart God's purposes for God never purposed that eternal life be an UNconditional gift to man regardless of how man lives his life. God made the promise of eternal life conditional upon man living an obedient, godly life. It was God's purpose to make Israel His children, which God did. Yet Israel disobeyed to the point God disinherited them, cast them off, they were no longer His children. The Jews were God's children yet they disobeyed and God threatened to disinherit them (Num 14:12) and make another, greater nation. Yet the Jews continued to disobey and as a result God said they would no longer be His people (Hosea 1:10), God said of fleshly Israel " for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more" (Hosea 9:15). This was fully realized when the Messiah came to earth and the Jews rejected Him, and God cast off fleshly Israel (Rom 11) ending the covenant relationship, God was no longer their God and they were no longer His children...." for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God" (Hosea 1:9). In a discourse Jesus had with the Jews, He told them they were of their father the devil (Jn 8:44). Though the Jews were cast off and no longer God's children, God still made salvation available to them thru Christ and a "remnant" of Jews obeyed God in Acts 2 whereby God became those Jews Father. Even though a person's biological father cannot change but spiritually one's father can change as it did for the Jews. God was their Father, then the devil but for the few 'remnant' Jews who obeyed, God became their Father. Christians are sons of God by adoption, and in adoptions ownership can be transferred to another. Before men become Christians, men are lost and are the sons of Satan, but when men become Christians their spiritual Father becomes God. If "once a son, always a son" were true, then no man can be saved for once a son of Satan, always a son of Satan. In Rom 11, we see God cast off the Jews and grafted in the Gentiles. But God warned the Gentiles "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." If the Gentiles rebelled against God as the Jews, then God would not spare the Gentiles either, they would be cast off as the Jews and the devil would become their father as he was for the Jews (Jn 8:44). (also 1 Jn 3:8-10). Rom 8:12-14 those who are sons of God are those who are led by the Spirit. If the Gentiles, as the Jews, rebelled against God then they are no longer led by the Spirit and do not qualify to be sons of God. So john 3:16 to you is "shoulda woulda coulda"? WOW I'm speechless. "In order for one to quit doing some thing logically implies one must have first been engaged in it in order to quit it.....one cannot quit some thing he never started."Exactly... Can't stop believing in Jesus if you've never really started. The bad news is you're going to be smoking for eternity and I'm not talking about in the boys room. John 3:16 does use the subjunctive mood....."should not perish" Subjunctive mood - Is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances - Strong's Clearly then 'perishing' may or may not occur depending on the circumstance of one having a present tense belief or not. The verb "believeth" is active voice and "perish" is middle voice showing the subject is doing the action, that is, each person chooses for himself/herself if they will believe or if they will perish. Hence the use of the subjunctive mood, one perishing or not perishing is based upon what a person chooses for himself because salvation is not an unconditional guarantee made by God that is forced upon a man against his will but salvation is a choice each person makes for himself. The NIV, which tries to force Calvinism into the Bible, completely deleted out the subjunctive mood and changed "should" to "shall" in Jn 3:16 to avoid the fact one can perish if he does not choose to have an ongoing, sustained present tense belief. A person who chooses to believe today may choose to not believe tomorrow or one who chooses to not believe today may choose to believe tomorrow. So NOTHING in the Bible says it is impossible for a believer to quit believing, the subjunctive mood proves one can quit believing, the warnings in the Bible against falling into unbelief prove one can quit believing. OSAS makes the words 'apostate' and 'fall' meaningless for the words show a change in position, a move away from a previous standing which can only be true of those who were in a saved standing fall to a lost standing for one who has always fallen cannot fall, one who always in unbelief cannot fall into unbelief. |
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Post by gomer on Sept 11, 2022 4:50:33 GMT -8
How a Christian can Lose SalvationThe 14 step plan. By Pastor David F. Reagan. Used with permission from Learn the Bible. Definitively answers the question: "Once saved, always saved?" Well, if you are going to lose your salvation (just bear with me if you want to keep yours), then you must lose it according to the rules. The rule book is, of course, the word of God. You must not rely on feelings, or common sense, or human reasoning. Feelings can be wrong. Human thinking may not be God’s way (Isaiah 55:8-9). Only God’s Word is the absolute authority. Can you lose your salvation? What about the warning passages? I do not see that he solved his problem. The warnings make no sense at all if salvation cannot be lost under any circumstance.....the warnings would actually be lies if salvation cannot be lost. He chose to use Paul in a ship when a storm comes up threatening the lives of those on the ship as an example. Yet he failed to mention that salvation from the storm was CONDITIONAL just as salvation Christ offers the lost is also CONDITIONAL: Saved from Shipwreck: On Condition
During Paul’s voyage to Rome, the ship upon which he sailed encountered a life-threatening storm. It was feared that all would be lost.
Yet God, on account of Paul’s fidelity, “granted” (charizomai — to give freely) to him the lives of all that sailed with him (Acts 27:24).
In spite of that promise, the apostle later informed the centurion in charge of the vessel:
“Except these abide in the ship, you [plural] cannot be saved” (27:31).
www.christiancourier.com/articles/176-must-we-do-something-to-receive-the-free-gift-of-salvation
Jn 3:16 as long as one CONDITIONALLY maintains a present tense belief he should be saved/not perish and as long as one CONDITIONALLY remained in the ship he should be saved from the storm. There was no UNconditional guarantee of salvation whether one remained in the ship or not. Note also their salvation from the storm was a free gift of God and by being obedient to God by remaining in the ship did not merit their salvation but their obedience met a CONDITION GOD chose to put upon His gracious free gift. They were not being legalist by remaining on the ship. |
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Post by gomer on Sept 11, 2022 5:12:35 GMT -8
The Bible does not lie. We today are under the NT gospel unlike the thief who lived under the OT law, and the NT requires one must be "in Christ" to be saved. Being "in Christ" is what it means to be a Christian, in Christ there is no condemnation (Rom 8:1-2), in Christ is where saving grace is only found (2 Tim 2:1). Therefore salvation for us today is IMPOSSIBLE outside of Christ. The church located at Ephesus had left Christ (Rev 2:1-7) and if they did not repent their candlestick/church would be removed and they would be lost, no longer recognized by God as His church. For the thief, he lived at a very unique time when Christ was on earth in person. Matt 9:6, when Christ was ON EARTH He had been given the authority to forgive the sins of those whom He thought were deserving as the thief. Therefore no one today can be saved as the thief because he did not live under the NT gospel (Heb 9:15-16) that requires one be a Christian in Christ. Nor is Christ on earth today personally forgiving the sins of men. Men today can only find salvation IN CHRIST under the NT. =================== Jn 10:27-28 being in God's hand CONDITIONALLY requires one to be a sheep of Christ. Being a sheep of Christ CONDITIONALLY requires one to have an ongoing sustained hearing and following of Christ. Being in God's hand therefore is not UNconditional but 100% conditional for if one quits hearing and following one is no longer a sheep of Christ and will no longer be in God's hand. One cannot become a Christian, a sheep of Christ but then live as one pleases and still be saved. One must CONDITIONALLY live a life of hearing and following Christ. In order to have the present tense eternal life, one must also have a present tense hearing and following. =================== John 14:15 Jesus was speaking to His Apostles, therefore the promise of the Comforter was not to anyone today and has no bearing on this subject. =================== Christians are Christians by adoption and adoptions can be changed. Strange way to start but "let God be true and every man a liar" so that's where you stand, First what is required in the NT to be saved is that you must be born again, Second you cant put yourself in Jesus so that's not your doing, Salvation is "Jesus in you" as a gift, God is Salvation and only God has immortality If you understood the NT you wouldn't be discussing working for and losing salvation, as you don't work to receive Jesus it is given as a gift, The gift of righteousness The gift of eternal life, The gift of Salvation The Gift of God himself God purchased the church with his own blood, When the blood is applied to someone they are born again spiritually, there sins are gone, they become the righteousness of God in Christ, They are his workmanship for his glory so when you hear "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" You should understand that when someone becomes a born again child of God they are his possession he will complete it and he will get them home and all for his glory But hey can you go cant back into your mothers womb and become unborn, its absurd as saying a man can carnally undo the spiritual birth God has done, You obviously don't understand the new birth but if you are honest, Jesus said he would give the born again the Holy spirit that would never leave them or forsake them, If a born again was sent to hell like you propose would God have to take his spirit away from them or throw the Holy spirit in hell, Both are impossible and as you said the Bible doesn't lie so the problem lye's in your understanding, man cannot undo what God has done and said he will complete Man chooses for himself to be in Christ or not, this is not something God randomly chooses for man making God culpable for the lost and a respecter of person. Gal 3:27 baptism is how gets into in Christ and those who choose to obey and be baptized will be 'in Christ' and those who choose not to be baptized will not be in Christ so each person is responsible and accountable for his own choices. Salvation is a free gift and cannot be earned or merit, but salvation is a CONDITIONAL free gift and one must meet and continue to meet the conditions God has placed upon His free gift. Belief is a condition that must be met to have eternal life therefore one must CONTINUE to believe to CONTINUE to have eternal life. Hence the conditional mood in Jn 3:16 as I discussed in a couple of posts earlier. You are mixing the physical with the spiritual. One cannot be physically unborn but one born again can spiritually die as the prodigal was "dead" (see also Jude 1:12 those twice dead; Heb 6:4-7). One cannot change his biological father but one's spiritual father can and does change as I discussed in a previous post. One is born again when he is water baptized. One cannot go back and undo his water baptism but, as pointed out, he can spiritually die. So it is not a matter of being spiritually 'unborn' but it is a matter of spiritually dying. |
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e v e
Full Member
Posts: 214
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Post by e v e on Sept 11, 2022 14:09:19 GMT -8
the legal is very important
christ made possible to undo the fall
adam caused
legally…
by the cross
and for us.
each souls choice of Him (ieue, God)
or of God’s enemy (satan)
is legal
esau’s effort is to make less of the legal by confusing it with
satans pharisaical laws
in romans are two laws described
…. the law of sin and death
and His law of the spirit of life
our covenant of Him with us
is to return to eden, our land
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yacker
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by yacker on Sept 11, 2022 23:31:48 GMT -8
Man chooses for himself to be in Christ or not, this is not something God randomly chooses for man making God culpable for the lost and a respecter of person . Gal 3:27 baptism is how gets into in Christ and those who choose to obey and be baptized will be 'in Christ' and those who choose not to be baptized will not be in Christ so each person is responsible and accountable for his own choices. Salvation is a free gift and cannot be earned or merit, but salvation is a CONDITIONAL free gift and one must meet and continue to meet the conditions God has placed upon His free gift. Belief is a condition that must be met to have eternal life therefore one must CONTINUE to believe to CONTINUE to have eternal life. Hence the conditional mood in Jn 3:16 as I discussed in a couple of posts earlier. You are mixing the physical with the spiritual. One cannot be physically unborn but one born again can spiritually die as the prodigal was "dead" (see also Jude 1:12 those twice dead; Heb 6:4-7). One cannot change his biological father but one's spiritual father can and does change as I discussed in a previous post. One is born again when he is water baptized. One cannot go back and undo his water baptism but, as pointed out, he can spiritually die. So it is not a matter of being spiritually 'unborn' but it is a matter of spiritually dying. Ok....well a cult has taught you that you're born again when you are water baptized, you have been lied to and are teaching a false gospel. You list things you think you can do but, without Jesus you cant do anything, all you can do is get yourself wet. There is a spiritual aspect to baptism you are not understanding, you do mention physical things but none of them save you Mathew 3:12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire Water shows repentance but there is the spiritual that you don't mention. Baptism with the Holy Ghost, you can't do that, but.... "you must be born again" so yes you must be baptized to be saved, but baptized with the Holy Spirit You bring in the conditions and you want something at the end, what is it? But today is the day of salvation, God is our Salvation. You get eternal life the moment you get God inside you, as only God is immortal. And God said he would never leave us or forsake us, so you are arguing against his possession he brought with his own blood. It's not about following any of your conditions to get a prize at the end. It's about receiving and being joined to God spiritually. That's when you receive salvation, and it's through Jesus shedding his blood on a cross. And again you can't do that. You have things a bit backwards, we died through Sin (Adam), we are brought to life through the second Adam (Jesus), a Life Giving Spirit. And God said he wouldn't lose any and he will complete what he began |
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