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Post by civic on Aug 23, 2022 5:50:44 GMT -8
Doctrine of election NOT biblical? Your Response I haven’t made anything about you. Calvinist believe they were elected by God before He created the heavens and earth which contradict scripture. So again what do Calvinist hear and believe before they are elected. All I have done is expose the man made gospel of Calvinism which contradicts scripture. What is the doctrine of election? ANSWER An election is a time when people choose who they want to fill certain positions from President on down. An election is a choice. The biblical doctrine of election teaches that God chooses to save some, and, by necessity, if He does not choose everyone, then there are some who are passed over. Those whom He has chosen to save are referred to as “the elect” (see, e.g., Mark 13:20). The Bible teaches that God chooses people based on His own purposes and His desire to show grace to underserving sinners. Ephesians 1:4–6 says, “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.” He chose in love, in accordance with His pleasure and will, so that He would be glorified. God’s election has nothing to do with what the elect would or would not do. God did not choose everyone. If He had, then everyone would come to faith in Christ. He chose some, and He left others to their own desires. Left to ourselves, all of us would continue in our rebellion and reject Christ. God chose to pursue some, convict them of their need, and lead them to faith. It is because of God’s choice that anyone comes to faith in Christ. Jesus said, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day” (John 6:44).
This is a tough truth to get our minds around. We are tempted to think that we are more just and gracious than God and that He should have chosen everyone. We need to reject that temptation. We are in no place to judge God! It is not as though some are desperately crying out to Him for salvation and He rejects them because He has not chosen them. Those whom God does not choose continue doing exactly what they want—they rebel against God and try to stay as far away from Him as possible. He simply allows them to continue on the path they have freely and willfully chosen. He has, however, chosen to intervene in the lives of some and win them over. He does this so that He might show His love and kindness to people who are undeserving. Some people think that God “chooses” based on the choices that He knows that the elect will make: He knows who will and who will not receive Christ, and He makes His choice based on that. But that would make people the ultimate choosers, with God simply following our choice. Biblically, it is the other way around. God chooses some based on His own purposes, and then, in response to His work in their lives, they choose Him. His choice is first and foundational. Without God’s election, no one would ever turn to Him. Many Christians recoil at the doctrine of election the first time they hear it. But, upon further reflection, most believers will admit that God was at work in their lives, drawing them to Himself long before they were even aware of it. They will recognize that, if He had not intervened, they would have continued in unbelief. The hand of God, working in big ways and little ways, becomes more evident in hindsight.
Some object to the doctrine of election on the grounds that it stifles missionary and evangelistic activity. After all, if God has chosen to save some, then they will be saved whether or not anyone takes them the gospel—so why bother? This objection overlooks the truth that hearing and believing the gospel is the means that God uses to save those He has chosen to save. Paul believed and taught election (it is a New Testament doctrine), yet he was zealous like no other in his missionary endeavors. Because he knew that God had chosen to save people through the gospel, Paul proclaimed it boldly and was persecuted for it. He explains, “I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 2:10). Paul endured persecution so that the elect will be saved, because the elect cannot be saved without hearing and believing the gospel. Through evangelism, God allows people to participate in His great plan of drawing a people unto Himself from every nation and language on earth. The doctrine of election frees us to share the gospel without pressure or fear of failure. When we share the gospel clearly, we have been obedient, and that is a success. The results are left to God. www.gotquestions.org/doctrine-of-election.html#:~:text=What%20is%20the,left%20to%20God. After reading this, do you still think this is unbiblical? J. . I believe election is biblical NOT the perversion and distortion Calvinism has created. Election is based on God’s foreknowledge not on a heavenly lottery. 1:Pe 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. I have been reading some of your responses in the wrath thread on the other forum and all you get in return are personal attacks, the same with Joe. I will be back there tomorrow and try and address some issues but will most likely get banned again for stating and defending that OP. You are doing a good job. Keep it up. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2022 5:51:33 GMT -8
I’m banned on CARM right now hence no posts lately . I might be asking to just have my membership removed over there when I return this week . If I posted this I would be banned lol . I hope we can have some good discussions on gospel and the differences between Calvinism and non Calvinism on the topic .
Pretty sure you're not "entirely" banned on Carm, *wink, wink* *nod, nod.*
Just a tip—one of your giveaways is the space before the period, it's very unique . <--
Just trying to help .
Smile .
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Post by civic on Aug 23, 2022 5:54:35 GMT -8
I’m banned on CARM right now hence no posts lately . I might be asking to just have my membership removed over there when I return this week . If I posted this I would be banned lol . I hope we can have some good discussions on gospel and the differences between Calvinism and non Calvinism on the topic .
Pretty sure you're not "entirely" banned on Carm, *wink, wink* *nod, nod.*
Just a tip—one of your giveaways is the delayed period, it's very unique . <--
Just trying to help .
Smile .
No seriously I am banned on CARM and get reinstated tomorrow. But I am able to read posts as a lurker on a browser that I have never logged into CARM on lol. For some reason it doesn't flag me. The same with my work cell phone when I'm not on wifi. On my personal cell I cannot . |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2022 6:03:22 GMT -8
I haven’t made anything about you. Calvinist believe they were elected by God before He created the heavens and earth which contradict scripture. So again what do Calvinist hear and believe before they are elected. All I have done is expose the man made gospel of Calvinism which contradicts scripture. The question, " What exactly did you hear before you were elected....?" is asked of me about my experience of hearing before I was elected. You did make it about me and now you're denying doing so and I'd like you to stop it making it about me and stop denying you did. You haven't exposed anything about Calvinism. The op is a strawman. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2022 6:16:17 GMT -8
Calvinist believe they were elected by God before He created the heavens and earth which contradict scripture. You have yet to prove that's what Calvinists believe. You have yet to prove that contradicts scripture. All you have done is repeat the same baseless arguments ad nauseam. Calvinists do believe God ordains all things at creation but He did so without being the author of sin, without violating the will of the creature, and without violating the contingency of secondary causes. When Calvinism teaches " some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death," it does so simultaneously asserting the existence of sin, the existence of the creature's will, and the existence of causes other than God and their contingencies. Anyone who doesn't understand that does not correctly understand Calvinism. EVERYONE who argues anything other than that is arguing straw men. Including you. I have asked for evidence several times and it's still absent from this thread. We no longer need my dissent to understand this op. Because of the repeated neglect and refusal to post any evidence we now know this OP is a baseless rant of Cal-contempt that has no evidence. Titus 3:9-11 ESV But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned. Do you believe scripture? Do you obey scripture? If so then learn to apply this to your participation in the forums. Don't stir up division baselessly. Provide evidence for your beliefs when you post those beliefs and if not then do it when asked. I did my part. I asked, I asked twice, I asked thrice. I now take my leave because there is no evidence provided to support this op. Shouldn't have to ask at all but I did ask. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 23, 2022 6:53:43 GMT -8
Eph 1:13 - In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, The true order of salvation is: 1.hear. 2. Believe. 3. Sealed. Calvinism has changed the gospel of God to the gospel of men, and that is eternally dangerous where does regeneration take place? there is no regeneration in that verse.. Sealed is received after faith. as someone pointed out. even Calvin believed this. the question would be this hear, regenerated, faith, sealed.... is this the Calvinist view (I may have regeneration and hear backwards) |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2022 7:30:08 GMT -8
No seriously I am banned on CARM and get reinstated tomorrow. But I am able to read posts as a lurker on a browser that I have never logged into CARM on lol. For some reason it doesn't flag me. The same with my work cell phone when I'm not on wifi. On my personal cell I cannot . Hopefully you'll be Redeemed soon.
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Post by civic on Aug 23, 2022 7:31:25 GMT -8
No seriously I am banned on CARM and get reinstated tomorrow. But I am able to read posts as a lurker on a browser that I have never logged into CARM on lol. For some reason it doesn't flag me. The same with my work cell phone when I'm not on wifi. On my personal cell I cannot . Hopefully you'll be Redeemed soon.
It doesn't look very good lol. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2022 8:19:17 GMT -8
Hopefully you'll be Redeemed soon.
It doesn't look very good lol.
Even the alts are banned, eh.
Hehehe.
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Post by civic on Aug 23, 2022 8:20:48 GMT -8
It doesn't look very good lol.
Even the alts are banned, eh.
Hehehe.
No alts just chalcedon. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2022 8:21:50 GMT -8
ah
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Post by civic on Aug 23, 2022 8:32:18 GMT -8
I'm sure they do not consider me to be one of the elect, chosen, predestined, sheep, redeemed but probably apostate since " I went out from them if I would of remained with them" spin on 1 John. They went out from us. I'm sure this is how they see me now as a non calvinist who left the fold/flock. A false teacher promoting heresy now. |
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Post by leatherneck0311 on Aug 23, 2022 8:46:45 GMT -8
I'm sure they do not consider me to be one of the elect, chosen, predestined, sheep, redeemed but probably apostate since " I went out from them if I would of remained with them" spin on 1 John. They went out from us. I'm sure this is how they see me now as a non calvinist who left the fold/flock. A false teacher promoting heresy now. . Calvinist have pretty much re-written John 3:16 for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son for Calvinist, sadly. Like you I am following Jesus not men. |
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Post by alexander on Aug 23, 2022 21:08:04 GMT -8
No, you don't get to make this about me. That is a red herring. There will be no shifting of onus, either. This is your op, and it isn't anyone else's obligation to disprove it. It's your responsibility to evidence this op, and then prove the claim made with that evidence. You've already committed a baseless accusation, born false witness, and posted a straw man. Don't make things worse with red herrings and shifting onuses. Don't make it worse by adding more baseless accusations when the only one twisting anything. Don't make things worse by attempts to change the topic. This op claims Calvinists teach something different than Ephesians 1:13. This matter is easily resolved: just post some evidence of Calvin teaching the claim made in this op. If you want to make "one thing for sure," then post the proof. Do not make stuff up about Calvinists and then tell everyone the made-up stuff is what Cals teach. Prove the claim of this op, and do it with actual evidence of actual Calvinists actually teaching the claim made in this OP. Or........ Since evidence has now already been provided that Calvin himself taught faith goes before sealing, maybe you ought to just acknowledge that evidence, conceding Calvin taught faith precedes sealing. I'll settle for a plain, simple, unequivocal acknowledgment of the evidence I provided but what I really think you should do is post a public expression of specified regret and an earnest statement purposing not to repeat this mistake but to instead always verify any such content before posting it, and then ask the mods to delete the thread. . I haven’t made anything about you. Calvinist believe they were elected by God before He created the heavens and earth which contradict scripture. So again what do Calvinist hear and believe before they are elected. All I have done is expose the man made gospel of Calvinism which contradicts scripture. Might be more productive chat if the other poster told you what HE believed, instead of arguing about what other Calvinists believe, |
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Post by leatherneck0311 on Aug 24, 2022 10:45:51 GMT -8
Might be more productive chat if the other poster told you what HE believed, instead of arguing about what other Calvinists believe, The D'var of YHVH is not up here for discussion, but man made opinions and Calvin and unless the Admin assert his authority this forum might well become another/heteros "Facebook" 1Co 1:11 My brothers, some members of Chloe’s family have made it clear to me that there are quarrels among you. 1Co 1:12 This is what I mean: Each of you is saying, “I belong to Paul,” [ Calvin] or “I belong to Apollos,” [Arminian] or “I belong to Cephas,” [I.e. Peter] or “I belong to the Messiah.” [Or Christ]
1Co 1:13 ¶ Is the Messiah [Or Christ] divided? Paul wasn’t crucified for you, was he? You weren’t baptized in Paul’s name, were you? 1Co 1:14 I thank God [Other mss. read I thank my God; still other mss. read I am thankful] that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 1Co 1:15 so that no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 1Co 1:16 (Oh yes, I also baptized the family of Stephanas. Beyond that, I’m not sure whether I baptized anyone else.) 1Co 1:17 For the Messiah [Or Christ] did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, not with eloquent wisdom, so the cross of the Messiah [Or Christ] won’t be emptied of its power. Lit., emptied. Rev., made void. Compare is made void, Rom_4:14, and the kindred adjective κενὸν, κενὴ vain, 1Co_15:14. The nucleus of the apostolic preaching was a fact - Christ crucified. To preach it as a philosophic system would be to empty it of its saving power, a truth which finds abundant and lamentable illustration in the history of the Church.
Vincent
Not in wisdom of words (ouk en sophiāi logou). Note ou, not mē (the subjective negative), construed with apesteilen rather than the infinitive. Not in wisdom of speech (singular). Preaching was Paul’s forte, but it was not as a pretentious philosopher or professional rhetorician that Paul appeared before the Corinthians (1Co_2:1-5). Some who followed Apollos may have been guilty of a fancy for external show, though Apollos was not a mere performer and juggler with words. But the Alexandrian method as in Philo did run to dialectic subtleties and luxuriant rhetoric (Lightfoot).
Robertson Shalom J. . I am not and did not address individual beliefs of Calvinist. What I did address was that the core of the gospel been has perverted and changed from the gospel that Jesus and the apostles taught. The gospel has been changed from the message of God’s love, Jesus’ sacrificial death, and being born again to the Calvinist view of if you weren’t “elected” before God created the heavens and the earth oh well tough luck,which is neither true nor scriptural. Just a thought if you do not like the OP make a biblical argument instead of attacking the messenger support your disagreement using scripture. I am not interested what Calvin nor Piper taught or believed. If you cannot make a scriptural refutation of why you think I am wrong about Calvinist perverting the gospel taught by Jesus and the Apostles make a scriptural argument to back up your claim do not tell me what Calvin nor Piper said . |
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