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Post by rockson on Aug 27, 2022 9:30:51 GMT -8
So the thread theme is Did Calvinism Change the Gospel?
I'd say they have that is in the real sense of the word.
They'll argue just what is the gospel? Believing on the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and that our sins are remitted if we believe on his name.
I can agree with that BUT, the gospel or the message of God is all other things as well. Are we to say all the other teachings of Jesus are not as we would say "the gospel"? Sure they are! One thing Jesus did repeatedly was to reveal the Father, and teach about the character of God and why did he do this? To build a confidence in us that we could come to God and actually would even want to.
Jesus said, "Come unto me and learn from me for I am meek and lowly in heart" In other words God IS NOT some tyrant or unkind entity. Jesus also got across how God loves you MORE than even your earthly parent could do! He also revealed it's God will that not any should perish but ALL should come to repentance and be saved.
So what does the Calvinistic message do? It doesn't really go against believing in what Jesus did on the cross, and resurrection NO...it doesn't. But what it does do whether they want to believe this or not it hinders people from entering the Kingdom. It doesn't stop them BUT...it potentially hinders them. Many people will turn away from God and not have desire for God if they feel he's self serving and a tyrant. Let's be honest. If a powerful MAN could have rescued 100 people drowning but just made a decision to save 50 you may fear that powerful man and not say anything disrespectful but inwardly you really don't like such an individual. Some might press through and just believe and receive the essentials of salvation but how many would have said I'd rather not go to heaven than to be with such a unfair being? Maybe a great many.
Thus what I mean Calvinist acknowledge the things Jesus did at the cross but they potentially hinder people from getting saved with their Calvinistic mix. In that regard I actually think Calvinism needs to be repented from and forgive the person God will do. None of us in Heaven even though we're saved want to be told by the Lord the wrong thinking we had and expressed turned people away.
I know on these message boards people love talking theology. I do too. But people should know it can turn into a very serious thing if one convinced another God is really indifferent and maybe won't save them, or you just never know and the reader of such says well forget it all then! And all the time God wanted to receive them??? My, my,my why should anyone even want to take the risk and find out God wasn't pleased with them in so doing this? I'm sure in the next world we'll all have things we'll ask the Lord forgiveness on but by gosh never let it be something like this! This is the thing which effects other people and being guilty of such things like that one receives a greater judgement. James 1:3
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Post by Theophilus on Dec 12, 2022 12:59:57 GMT -8
Everything Calvinist do is to protect their false beliefs about election. I don’t read an ESV because many verses have been changed to support Calvinism. I didn't know that about ESV. One thing I've seen over and over is Calvinists do not have to change the versus they just read their own ideas into the verses. I think I’ve got to accept what the Bible says, and I must be very, very careful, that out of determination to support a particular view, I do not impose my ideas on the Bible and make it say what it doesn’t say. I'm sure we've all seen these ones many times. “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever . . . ” (It sounds like He means whosoever), and you can go through the Bible and you can take that word, “whosoever,” and I challenge you to find anywhere that it means anything but, whosoever and not only the elect. When Jesus says, “If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink . . . .” Any man. He says, “If you are weary, heavy laden, come to me, I will give you rest.” But the Calvinist would say, no, that means the elect. And when Paul writes and says “God is not willing that any should perish,” the Calvinist says, no that means any of the elect.
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Post by makesends on Dec 12, 2022 15:26:38 GMT -8
Everything Calvinist do is to protect their false beliefs about election. I don’t read an ESV because many verses have been changed to support Calvinism. I didn't know that about ESV. One thing I've seen over and over is Calvinists do not have to change the versus they just read their own ideas into the verses. I think I’ve got to accept what the Bible says, and I must be very, very careful, that out of determination to support a particular view, I do not impose my ideas on the Bible and make it say what it doesn’t say. I'm sure we've all seen these ones many times. “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever . . . ” (It sounds like He means whosoever), and you can go through the Bible and you can take that word, “whosoever,” and I challenge you to find anywhere that it means anything but, whosoever and not only the elect. When Jesus says, “If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink . . . .” Any man. He says, “If you are weary, heavy laden, come to me, I will give you rest.” But the Calvinist would say, no, that means the elect. And when Paul writes and says “God is not willing that any should perish,” the Calvinist says, no that means any of the elect. John 3:16 uses the word, 'whosoever' in probably most versions, but the Greek doesn't give the sense of randomness you seem to require. The Greek is literally, "so that everyone believing in him not should-perish." No big deal, not changing anything. Unless you are big on KJV only, as though IT is the inspired word of God beyond that of even the originals. So, the Calvinist quite reasonably asks, "Do you know of anyone who savingly believes in him, besides those to whom God has chosen to show mercy?" If 'any man' comes unto Christ, who else does, but those to whom God has chosen to show mercy? "God is not willing that any should perish" contextually means those to whom God has chosen to show mercy. But if it doesn't mean that, it also can mean that God doesn't like it that any else should perish. In fact, it can even mean by, 'any', a reference to "both Gentile and Jew", so, no, it isn't a stretch to say that the verse does not necessarily mean, as you seem to think, that God has no preference nor did he plan to save any particular persons, but absolutely everyone —particularly when there is so much evidence against that notion. Calvinists have changed nothing but the minds of those who believe in self-determination. No matter which way you take these verses, you have no way to show that anyone EVER was saved, except those to whom God chose to show mercy. Why should you have a problem with that?
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Post by Theophilus on Dec 12, 2022 16:29:26 GMT -8
I didn't know that about ESV. One thing I've seen over and over is Calvinists do not have to change the versus they just read their own ideas into the verses. I think I’ve got to accept what the Bible says, and I must be very, very careful, that out of determination to support a particular view, I do not impose my ideas on the Bible and make it say what it doesn’t say. I'm sure we've all seen these ones many times. “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever . . . ” (It sounds like He means whosoever), and you can go through the Bible and you can take that word, “whosoever,” and I challenge you to find anywhere that it means anything but, whosoever and not only the elect. When Jesus says, “If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink . . . .” Any man. He says, “If you are weary, heavy laden, come to me, I will give you rest.” But the Calvinist would say, no, that means the elect. And when Paul writes and says “God is not willing that any should perish,” the Calvinist says, no that means any of the elect. John 3:16 uses the word, 'whosoever' in probably most versions, but the Greek doesn't give the sense of randomness you seem to require. The Greek is literally, "so that everyone believing in him not should-perish." No big deal, not changing anything. Unless you are big on KJV only, as though IT is the inspired word of God beyond that of even the originals. So, the Calvinist quite reasonably asks, "Do you know of anyone who savingly believes in him, besides those to whom God has chosen to show mercy?" If 'any man' comes unto Christ, who else does, but those to whom God has chosen to show mercy? "God is not willing that any should perish" contextually means those to whom God has chosen to show mercy. But if it doesn't mean that, it also can mean that God doesn't like it that any else should perish. In fact, it can even mean by, 'any', a reference to "both Gentile and Jew", so, no, it isn't a stretch to say that the verse does not necessarily mean, as you seem to think, that God has no preference nor did he plan to save any particular persons, but absolutely everyone —particularly when there is so much evidence against that notion. Calvinists have changed nothing but the minds of those who believe in self-determination. No matter which way you take these verses, you have no way to show that anyone EVER was saved, except those to whom God chose to show mercy. Why should you have a problem with that? I don't have a problem; I believe what the Bible says about our salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Acts 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 10:9-10 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Read More...) John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 1 Peter 3:18-22 - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.
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Post by praiseyeshua on Dec 12, 2022 21:14:18 GMT -8
I didn't know that about ESV. One thing I've seen over and over is Calvinists do not have to change the versus they just read their own ideas into the verses. I think I’ve got to accept what the Bible says, and I must be very, very careful, that out of determination to support a particular view, I do not impose my ideas on the Bible and make it say what it doesn’t say. I'm sure we've all seen these ones many times. “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever . . . ” (It sounds like He means whosoever), and you can go through the Bible and you can take that word, “whosoever,” and I challenge you to find anywhere that it means anything but, whosoever and not only the elect. When Jesus says, “If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink . . . .” Any man. He says, “If you are weary, heavy laden, come to me, I will give you rest.” But the Calvinist would say, no, that means the elect. And when Paul writes and says “God is not willing that any should perish,” the Calvinist says, no that means any of the elect. John 3:16 uses the word, 'whosoever' in probably most versions, but the Greek doesn't give the sense of randomness you seem to require. The Greek is literally, "so that everyone believing in him not should-perish." No big deal, not changing anything. Unless you are big on KJV only, as though IT is the inspired word of God beyond that of even the originals. So, the Calvinist quite reasonably asks, "Do you know of anyone who savingly believes in him, besides those to whom God has chosen to show mercy?" If 'any man' comes unto Christ, who else does, but those to whom God has chosen to show mercy? "God is not willing that any should perish" contextually means those to whom God has chosen to show mercy. But if it doesn't mean that, it also can mean that God doesn't like it that any else should perish. In fact, it can even mean by, 'any', a reference to "both Gentile and Jew", so, no, it isn't a stretch to say that the verse does not necessarily mean, as you seem to think, that God has no preference nor did he plan to save any particular persons, but absolutely everyone —particularly when there is so much evidence against that notion. Calvinists have changed nothing but the minds of those who believe in self-determination. No matter which way you take these verses, you have no way to show that anyone EVER was saved, except those to whom God chose to show mercy. Why should you have a problem with that? Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. Much of what Calvinism teaches in unconditional election is based upon circular logic and limited capacity. There is a reason for God's action in showing mercy and grace. It was never based upon the will of men. The unconditional nature of Election is predicated upon God's choice in Himself of His ONLY begotten Son. Jesus Christ. If it has nothing whatsoever to do with men, then you should leave men out of it completely. The only possible way to accomplish is to see Election for what it is. God satisfying Himself in Jesus Christ. Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
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Post by makesends on Dec 13, 2022 7:34:12 GMT -8
John 3:16 uses the word, 'whosoever' in probably most versions, but the Greek doesn't give the sense of randomness you seem to require. The Greek is literally, "so that everyone believing in him not should-perish." No big deal, not changing anything. Unless you are big on KJV only, as though IT is the inspired word of God beyond that of even the originals. So, the Calvinist quite reasonably asks, "Do you know of anyone who savingly believes in him, besides those to whom God has chosen to show mercy?" If 'any man' comes unto Christ, who else does, but those to whom God has chosen to show mercy? "God is not willing that any should perish" contextually means those to whom God has chosen to show mercy. But if it doesn't mean that, it also can mean that God doesn't like it that any else should perish. In fact, it can even mean by, 'any', a reference to "both Gentile and Jew", so, no, it isn't a stretch to say that the verse does not necessarily mean, as you seem to think, that God has no preference nor did he plan to save any particular persons, but absolutely everyone —particularly when there is so much evidence against that notion. Calvinists have changed nothing but the minds of those who believe in self-determination. No matter which way you take these verses, you have no way to show that anyone EVER was saved, except those to whom God chose to show mercy. Why should you have a problem with that? Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. Much of what Calvinism teaches in unconditional election is based upon circular logic and limited capacity. There is a reason for God's action in showing mercy and grace. It was never based upon the will of men. The unconditional nature of Election is predicated upon God's choice in Himself of His ONLY begotten Son. Jesus Christ. If it has nothing whatsoever to do with men, then you should leave men out of it completely. The only possible way to accomplish is to see Election for what it is. God satisfying Himself in Jesus Christ. Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 9:33 says literally, "... the [one] believing...", not the ' whosoever' we have taken to mean something along the lines of 'random individuals' the last hundred or more years; John 3:16 says pretty much the same, except it uses "... everyone who believes..." But for a couple of statements, I would have taken you for Calvinist or Reformed. You say, "Much of what Calvinism teaches in unconditional election is based upon circular logic and limited capacity." —I don't know where people come up with these constructions. "Limited capacity"? Calvinism may teach limited EFFICACY. Is this where you see circular logic, as though God looks to see who gets saved in order to choose them? That isn't Calvinism's construction. That circular logic belongs to the Arminians! You say, "If it has nothing whatsoever to do with men, then you should leave men out of it completely." —If WHAT "has nothing whatsoever to do with men"? Man is intimately involved in his salvation; he only has no causative ability in it; it is not by the will of man, but of God. We are born of the Spirit of God; Salvation is by Grace through Faith. Salvific Faith is not something man can generate. Regeneration is by the Spirit of God.
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Post by civic on Dec 13, 2022 10:49:14 GMT -8
So the thread theme is Did Calvinism Change the Gospel? I'd say they have that is in the real sense of the word. They'll argue just what is the gospel? Believing on the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and that our sins are remitted if we believe on his name. I can agree with that BUT, the gospel or the message of God is all other things as well. Are we to say all the other teachings of Jesus are not as we would say "the gospel"? Sure they are! One thing Jesus did repeatedly was to reveal the Father, and teach about the character of God and why did he do this? To build a confidence in us that we could come to God and actually would even want to. Jesus said, "Come unto me and learn from me for I am meek and lowly in heart" In other words God IS NOT some tyrant or unkind entity. Jesus also got across how God loves you MORE than even your earthly parent could do! He also revealed it's God will that not any should perish but ALL should come to repentance and be saved. So what does the Calvinistic message do? It doesn't really go against believing in what Jesus did on the cross, and resurrection NO...it doesn't. But what it does do whether they want to believe this or not it hinders people from entering the Kingdom. It doesn't stop them BUT...it potentially hinders them. Many people will turn away from God and not have desire for God if they feel he's self serving and a tyrant. Let's be honest. If a powerful MAN could have rescued 100 people drowning but just made a decision to save 50 you may fear that powerful man and not say anything disrespectful but inwardly you really don't like such an individual. Some might press through and just believe and receive the essentials of salvation but how many would have said I'd rather not go to heaven than to be with such a unfair being? Maybe a great many. Thus what I mean Calvinist acknowledge the things Jesus did at the cross but they potentially hinder people from getting saved with their Calvinistic mix. In that regard I actually think Calvinism needs to be repented from and forgive the person God will do. None of us in Heaven even though we're saved want to be told by the Lord the wrong thinking we had and expressed turned people away. I know on these message boards people love talking theology. I do too. But people should know it can turn into a very serious thing if one convinced another God is really indifferent and maybe won't save them, or you just never know and the reader of such says well forget it all then! And all the time God wanted to receive them??? My, my,my why should anyone even want to take the risk and find out God wasn't pleased with them in so doing this? I'm sure in the next world we'll all have things we'll ask the Lord forgiveness on but by gosh never let it be something like this! This is the thing which affects other people and being guilty of such things like that one receives a greater judgement. James 1:3 Thanks for your input on the topic brother . I get banned at the other place when I comment on these topics lol .
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Post by civic on Dec 13, 2022 10:50:42 GMT -8
John 3:16 uses the word, 'whosoever' in probably most versions, but the Greek doesn't give the sense of randomness you seem to require. The Greek is literally, "so that everyone believing in him not should-perish." No big deal, not changing anything. Unless you are big on KJV only, as though IT is the inspired word of God beyond that of even the originals. So, the Calvinist quite reasonably asks, "Do you know of anyone who savingly believes in him, besides those to whom God has chosen to show mercy?" If 'any man' comes unto Christ, who else does, but those to whom God has chosen to show mercy? "God is not willing that any should perish" contextually means those to whom God has chosen to show mercy. But if it doesn't mean that, it also can mean that God doesn't like it that any else should perish. In fact, it can even mean by, 'any', a reference to "both Gentile and Jew", so, no, it isn't a stretch to say that the verse does not necessarily mean, as you seem to think, that God has no preference nor did he plan to save any particular persons, but absolutely everyone —particularly when there is so much evidence against that notion. Calvinists have changed nothing but the minds of those who believe in self-determination. No matter which way you take these verses, you have no way to show that anyone EVER was saved, except those to whom God chose to show mercy. Why should you have a problem with that? Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. Much of what Calvinism teaches in unconditional election is based upon circular logic and limited capacity. There is a reason for God's action in showing mercy and grace. It was never based upon the will of men. The unconditional nature of Election is predicated upon God's choice in Himself of His ONLY begotten Son. Jesus Christ. If it has nothing whatsoever to do with men, then you should leave men out of it completely. The only possible way to accomplish is to see Election for what it is. God satisfying Himself in Jesus Christ. Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Agreed
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Post by praiseyeshua on Dec 14, 2022 14:30:46 GMT -8
Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. Much of what Calvinism teaches in unconditional election is based upon circular logic and limited capacity. There is a reason for God's action in showing mercy and grace. It was never based upon the will of men. The unconditional nature of Election is predicated upon God's choice in Himself of His ONLY begotten Son. Jesus Christ. If it has nothing whatsoever to do with men, then you should leave men out of it completely. The only possible way to accomplish is to see Election for what it is. God satisfying Himself in Jesus Christ. Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 9:33 says literally, "... the [one] believing...", not the ' whosoever' we have taken to mean something along the lines of 'random individuals' the last hundred or more years; John 3:16 says pretty much the same, except it uses "... everyone who believes..." But for a couple of statements, I would have taken you for Calvinist or Reformed. You say, "Much of what Calvinism teaches in unconditional election is based upon circular logic and limited capacity." —I don't know where people come up with these constructions. "Limited capacity"? Calvinism may teach limited EFFICACY. Is this where you see circular logic, as though God looks to see who gets saved in order to choose them? That isn't Calvinism's construction. That circular logic belongs to the Arminians! You say, "If it has nothing whatsoever to do with men, then you should leave men out of it completely." —If WHAT "has nothing whatsoever to do with men"? Man is intimately involved in his salvation; he only has no causative ability in it; it is not by the will of man, but of God. We are born of the Spirit of God; Salvation is by Grace through Faith. Salvific Faith is not something man can generate. Regeneration is by the Spirit of God. My self assessment is that I am probably 90 percent Calvinist. However, places where I disagree with Calvinism is significant. Some may see it differently and I don't usually have issues with their assessment. In my self assessment, I have significantly MORE issues with Arminianism. I believe in limited freedom of will that varies from individual to individual based upon circumstances. Some have more opportunity and access than others. I hardly ever get to discuss this because it requires significant knowledge on either side of the spectrum to understand. I'm not saying that to belittle anyone. Just stating facts. I can spend time try to get others to understand my perspective and you may never get there. I believe a proper perspective is essential to understanding these issues completely. It is difficult to share perspective with others. Especially in an forum environment. Basically, I usually in-between Calvinism and Arminianism when it comes to Election and Limited Atonement. I "hedge" just a little on Total Depravity because I believe the Gospel message is Innately powerful to the point of reveal Jesus Christ at a rudimentary level to individuals. I believe God designed the Gospel to "awaken" thoughts of our existence within our limiting environment. I don't believe man is so entirely depraved that he can't see light in the Gospel. He can. Even the blind can sense light. I've known blind people. If you have eyes at all, you can sense light. Having no eyes at all is different. There is no sense of light whatsoever. Even Peter witnessed to the fact that some "can't see very far" in association to blindness. Blindness in part in reference to Jews by Paul. Too often both sides draw absolutes between themselves that do not exist. The circular logic I referenced is largely in Election. They always start with themselves and end with themselves. Their argument can be self serving and devoid of reason. I don't remember the times I've heard "the good pleasure of His will" used as a defense. Sorry. That isn't a defense. God's purpose in humanity was planned before Adam was ever formed. Before man ever existed. Election is God's choice in Himself. We can talk about means but you must start with Jesus Christ alone. God pleasing Himself through Jesus Christ. That is the foundation of all things. I do not believe in individual election. God foreknew the elect in Jesus Christ and purposed all those in Christ to be made in His image and after His likeness. That requires the new birth. Not what Adam experienced.
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Post by Theophilus on Jan 31, 2023 16:05:49 GMT -8
Calvinism, the understanding of Scripture that stresses God’s sovereignty over all things, including an individual’s salvation, is not as popular as it once was in decades past. However, more recently there has been something of a resurgence, especially among younger people. Nevertheless, even when the term is not used, often the concepts associated with Calvinism (known also as “the doctrines of grace”) continue to play a significant role in the life of both individual believers and in the church. This is especially so amongst churches that trace a Reformed heritage, though by no means limited to such traditions.
My own spiritual pilgrimage began in a context where a weak but clearly present form of Calvinism existed. However, as I progressed in my understanding of the faith and in my own reading of the Bible, I gradually became increasingly aware of a certain discomfort between the Calvinism I heard preached and taught and my own understanding of Scripture. Was it really the case that God unilaterally decided who would be saved and who would not? Was God’s grace really not resistible and, if so, how did my sinning fit in? Was it true that human nature was so depraved that a person was totally incapable of even responding to the gospel invitation apart from God’s effectually causing him to respond? Was faith really a gift of God; if so then who was to be blamed when individuals refused to believe? And so on. These were the sorts of questions I struggled to come to terms with.
It would be many years before I could precisely identify and articulate the source of my discomfort, but even at an early stage of my Christian life I realized that what I heard being taught and believed by godly Christians did not seem to correlate with my own reading of the Bible (especially the New Testament). The result was confusion. How could these preachers, teachers, authors, and friends possibly be mistaken? Even the possibility seemed inconceivable to me. Weren’t they merely expressing what Calvin, Luther, and the other great Reformers of the Protestant Reformation had taught?
The focus of my confusion lay in the doctrine of salvation, formally known as soteriology. However, since this doctrine is intimately connected with other doctrines—in this case the doctrines of Humanity, Grace, God, Christ, the Spirit, and Providence, to name a few—it was not easy to understand the issues and how they related to one another and so bring the needed clarity. Eventually, however, after much reading and after eight years of theological education, clarity did come, confusion was greatly reduced and a peace concerning the truth about the meaning of salvation enjoyed.
This present study arises from the conviction that many sincere Christians are today as confused about this doctrine as I was. This confusion is held by both lay persons and by pastors. My goal is to help us all see more clearly and more accurately what the Bible really teaches about this important doctrine. My hope is that uncertainty and confusion will be replaced by understanding, clarity, and a confidence in working out our salvation borne of insights that faithfully reflect God’s word.
A word about terminology; I use the term Calvinism somewhat reluctantly and only because it concisely encapsulates the distinct set of beliefs associated with the name of the great sixteenth-century Reformer John Calvin. There really is no other term or phrase that can accurately and succinctly take its place. Furthermore, this is the term traditionally and historically used in this sort of context. My reluctance stems from the perception that the term may be used here pejoratively. That is most certainly not my purpose. My purpose has to do only with descriptive efficiency. For the same reason, I have chosen to designate all soteriological views that contrast significantly with Calvinism by the term non-Calvinist.
My approach follows from the desire to bring clarity to the doctrine of salvation in order to remove confusion caused by those who espouse a view that is, I believe, fundamentally flawed. Consequently, I will use the Calvinist’s view of salvation as a foil with which I can interact with the doctrine. This indirect approach will serve on the one hand to show where and why Calvinism fails and, on the other hand, to provide a more biblically faithful and coherent understanding of the doctrine, though the emphasis will necessarily fall upon the former given the focus of this study as stated in the title of the work.
There are several reasons for Calvinism’s popularity and appeal both in the past and also today. First, Calvinism is a well-defined and internally consistent doctrinal system. All the elements that make up a Calvinistic soteriology “hang together” very tightly with no internal contradictions. As we shall see, part of the reason for such internal coherence is the prominent role the Calvinistic understanding of predestination holds within the system. Of course, internal consistency need not necessarily mean the doctrine is true. Consistency is a necessary but not sufficient criterion of veracity. Nevertheless, the coherence of Calvinistic soteriology has a certain appeal that serves to reinforce the belief that the Calvinistic perspective must be true.
Another reason that helps explain Calvinism’s appeal is its concern to uphold the glory of God. This is apparent in John Calvin’s own writings and in the writings of many Calvinists to this day. It is probably true to say that concern for God’s honor and glory is a high motivation for the embracing of the Calvinist’s “doctrines of grace.” (Of course, this may also explain why some Calvinists not only hold fast to their Calvinist convictions, but also why they sometimes appear rather dogmatic in their defense of Calvinism).
Yet a third reason why Calvinism is so popular is due to the comfort to be had in believing that God fully “controls” the situation when one learns, for example, that one has cancer. It is also comforting to believe that one’s salvation can never be “lost” and that one’s ultimate destiny is infallibly certain from the moment one believes the gospel. The comfort a Calvinistic view of God’s sovereignty provides is clearly seen in Robert Peterson’s book on election and free will. Under the heading “The Insecurity of Contemporary Life” Peterson appeals to a Calvinistic understanding of election (God chooses who will be saved) as functioning “to comfort the people of God and assure them that underneath all their meager efforts to live for him are God’s everlasting arms to hold, protect, and caress them.”
Another reason for the appeal of Calvinism is the central role its most prominent theologian, John Calvin, played in the history of the Protestant church. The Reformation is rightly viewed by the evangelical Christian as the key event in church history that liberated the people of God from the ecclesiastical bondage and corruption of the Roman church in the sixteenth century and toward a Scripture-focused faith. Not surprisingly therefore Calvin and the doctrines of salvation associated with his name should come to be viewed as authentic (and orthodox) Christian belief. The fact that Calvin was the first theologian to systematically and comprehensively expound the Bible no doubt reinforces the close connection between the Reformation, Bible centered theology, and the distinctive doctrine of salvation taught by Calvin. In short, part of Calvinism’s appeal is tied to a great event in church history (the Reformation), and a great leader of that Reformation (John Calvin).
A final reason that may explain Calvinism’s current popularity concerns the perception that it provides a strong, robust, and substantial theology—in contrast to what is considered by many to be shallow, emotionally oriented church preaching and life. There is no doubt that many of the church’s intellectual heavyweights, both in the past as well as the present, have espoused Calvinism. Most books on theology and related disciplines (apologetics, philosophy, ethics, and so on) have been written by Calvinists. The rise of “seeker sensitive” churches and the ubiquitous contemporary Christian worship music, often with shallow and highly repetitive lyrics, can lead to a longing for a church life with more substantial theological content. In short, Calvinism is a reaction to much that is perceived to be superficial in the church today.
Let me say a word about the approach taken in this study. Each chapter will begin with some introductory remarks intended to orient the reader with respect to the topic to be discussed. This will be followed by a clear presentation of the Calvinist’s position consisting of quotes from Calvinist writers. I want to present the Calvinist position as fairly as possible and avoid any kind of misrepresentation. I will then identify a few of the most commonly cited biblical texts used by Calvinists to support their viewpoint. These texts will be carefully evaluated and analyzed to see whether the Calvinist interpretation is in fact the correct one. Biblical texts supporting a non-Calvinist understanding of the doctrine will also be given. Following the biblical examination, I will provide a theological critique of the doctrine under consideration. This is accomplished by a series of theological issues related to the doctrine at hand. For example, under the study of election I raise and discuss eight theological issues, and under the irresistibility of grace I raise and discuss eleven theological issues.
The study is structured around the so-called five points of Calvinism summarized by the acronym TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, Perseverance of the saints.
In the first chapter I seek to provide a historical perspective. It will be seen that the issues raised in the present study are not new. In fact, the debate between a Calvinist and non-Calvinist soteriology go back at least to Augustine’s dispute with Pelagius in the fifth century AD. This chapter will also serve to show that godly Christians on both sides have existed down the centuries right up to the present time. It also reminds us of the need to exercise humility and love whenever we find ourselves in debate with Christians with whom we disagree doctrinally. Unfortunately, the lack of such Christian virtues has sometimes marred the debates over this doctrine in the past.
In the second chapter we examine the Calvinistic perspective on the human condition, i.e., the nature of human nature. We will see that Calvinism takes a very dim view of human nature subsequent to the fall of Adam and Eve into sin. Human nature is held to be totally depraved, which is understood to include a total inability to even respond to the gospel call to be saved. In this chapter both the doctrine of original sin as well as the doctrine of total depravity will be critiqued.
The third chapter examines the difficult doctrine of election. Here, it will be seen that Calvinism is quite insistent that God chooses who will be saved—and therefore also, either directly or indirectly, those who will not be saved. Here is where the concept of an eternal, all determining divine decree comes to the fore. In addition to examining the key biblical scriptures used to justify the Calvinist position, theological considerations around the ideas of election and predestination are discussed.
Chapter 4 considers the scope of Christ’s atoning sacrifice and some implications of the Calvinist’s view that the benefits of Christ’s death (salvation) was intended only for the elect. Variations on this theme (four-point Calvinism, Amyraldism) are examined for their validity. Since Scripture closely ties the atonement to the love of God, then an atonement limited by God necessarily carries implications for the scope of God’s love. The implication of a limited atonement for the task of evangelism is also examined.
In chapter 5 we will examine the Calvinist belief that God’s grace, insofar as the application of salvation is concerned, is irresistible. Those whom God chooses to save cannot resist God’s grace that inevitably leads to that person coming to salvation. Here, the concept of grace is discussed as well as the different ways God’s grace finds expression in Scripture. Of crucial importance in this chapter is the reality and role of free will insofar as a person’s response to the gospel call is concerned. Other crucial issues concern faith as a God-given gift and what that entails, as well as the idea that regeneration (new-birth) must precede faith.
Finally, in chapter 6, the view that those whom God calls to be saved will infallibly continue in the faith until the end—the perseverance of the saints—will be carefully assessed. Does the Bible support the notion that a believer may never “lose” his or her salvation? Crucial related issues will also be examined, including assurance of salvation, and the possibility and reality of apostasy. Finally, some pastoral implications of the doctrine will be discussed.
In the concluding chapter, several important problems associated both with Calvinism’s methodology and content are identified and discussed. As we examine these five aspects of salvation, we will inevitably be discussing other closely related doctrines. Examples would include the nature of faith, the nature of divine sovereignty, the basis for assurance, the relation between redemption accomplished (at the cross) and redemption applied (to the individual Christian). Several hermeneutical issues will also be noted as they often play a key role in interpreting any particular passage or text.
Throughout this study it will be apparent that the concept of the decree of God is crucial to a Calvinistic soteriology. A divine decree refers to God’s unilateral, unconditional decision or action. For example, God decreed to make a world. Having made a world, he decreed that its human inhabitants who willfully violated the Creator’s moral precepts would suffer punishment. So, in principle, there is nothing problematic with the idea of divine decree. But I shall argue that, within consistent Calvinism, the decrees of God are comprehensive, fine grained, particular—ultimately responsible for everything that occurs within the created order. This includes an individual’s salvation. It is this notion of decree that is shown to be very problematic for a doctrine of salvation that seeks to be biblically faithful.
Saved by Grace through Faith or Saved by Decree?
A Biblical and Theological Critique of Calvinist Soteriology
By Geoffrey D. Robinson
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Post by Theophilus on Feb 1, 2023 8:54:50 GMT -8
Here are three proof texts used by Calvinists that are taken out of context. John 6:37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” John 6:39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.” John 10:29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” In John’s gospel alone are we told that the Father gives some people to Jesus. This is often taken to mean that God’s elect are unconditionally caused to “come to” Jesus—i.e., believe upon him. Those so given are assured of final joyful resurrection, and divine protection. Peterson is typical: “The Father’s giving people to Jesus is a picture of election. It is critical to understand that the Father’s giving people to the Son precedes their believing in him for salvation.” Robert Yarbrough concurs: “Jesus indicates that those who respond to his call somehow do so at the Father’s bidding.” It is true, of course, that Jesus viewed a certain class of people as receptive to his message and person because “given” to Jesus by the Father. The question is: Who comprise this class of people? As we have seen, Calvinists answer unequivocally that those given are the elect, those sinners whom God has decreed will be saved by coming to Jesus. Are there any texts within John’s gospel itself that might provide a clue as to whom John had in mind when he wrote these words? There are. All agree that coming to Jesus is essentially synonymous with believing in him. The first clue to understanding whom Jesus is referring to when speaking of those whom the Father has given to him is seen in the previous chapter, in John 5:46, where again Jesus is in dispute with “the Jews” (5:18) concerning their rejection of him. Tellingly, Jesus asserts that “if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” (John 5:46). Jesus clearly grounds their unbelief in him in their unbelief of Moses. Conversely, had the Jews really understood and accepted Moses, they would have believed Jesus. Now, there were Jews in the old covenant who did indeed “believe Moses.” These would have been those referred to by Paul as the remnant of true believers in God in Old Testament times, for example the seven thousand who did not bow the knee to Baal in the days of Elijah (1 Kgs 19:18; Rom 11:4). In other words, Jesus is implying that these OT saints “would believe Me” had they seen Jesus. And we have already noted that to believe in Jesus is to “come to Me” (John 6:37). And, in the context of John 6:37, those who “come to Me” are precisely those whom “the Father gives Me.” In short, all that the Father gives to Jesus are those Old Testament saints living in Jesus’s day who already belong to God, believe in God, and who now are given to Jesus, the fuller revelation of God. Good examples would be Joseph and Mary, Zacharias and Elizabeth, Simeon. John 8:47 echoes the same sentiment: “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.” The ones in Jesus’s audience who would be “of God” are precisely those who believe in God to the extent possible under the old covenant revelation prior to Jesus’s coming. Now that the Father has sent the Son and spoken through the Son, these old covenant saints would readily accept the fuller revelation God is now providing in his Son and consequently readily hear the words of God as proclaimed through Jesus. Again, we have the same dynamic: these old covenant saints are the ones given to Jesus in response to Jesus’s preaching and proclamation. In an important verse, John 6:45 teaches the same idea: “It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.” Jesus is echoing Isa 54:13, “All your sons will be taught of the Lord.” Within the context of Jesus’s public ministry, those Jews who would have “learned from the Father” are those who believed the God of the Old Testament and learnt his character and purposes from that revelation. Now, with the inauguration of a new covenant centering upon Jesus it is precisely those who have already “heard and learned from the Father” prior to encountering Jesus who readily come to Jesus and are in this sense given to Jesus by the Father. Finally, Jesus in his high priestly prayer in John 17 makes reference to the same phenomenon: “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word” (John 17:6). Twice in this passage Jesus refers to “all whom You [God the Father] have given Him [Jesus]” (17:2, 9). The reference in this case is to the disciples in the Upper Room—soon to be apostles. Again, we see the same pattern previously noted in connection with those who are given to Jesus by the Father—they are precisely those who were already God’s, they already belonged to the Father, they already believed in the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 15:6; Eph 1:3). So, when the next step in God’s plan of redemption, the sending of his Son, took place, these disciples were already primed to hear Jesus’s words, receive Jesus himself, and thus be given to Jesus by the Father. John 15:16 “You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.” Citing this text, Horton remarks that “God’s own love, mercy, and freedom determined that we would belong to him in his Son.” While some generalize this verse to all believers, as Horton does here, in fact these words were specifically spoken to Jesus’s disciples during the Last Supper. He was preparing them for his imminent departure, and laying out the groundwork of his expectations for the soon-to-be apostles. This context makes clear therefore that Jesus’s electing was a choosing for service, not salvation. These were the men Jesus had chosen to continue his work of gospel proclamation throughout the world, and who would subsequently become the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20). So, this was a call to serve in that important role and bear fruit in that service, it was not a call to salvation; their own spiritual relationship would, like all other believers, require their ongoing faith and repentance. Any connection between Jesus’s choosing of his disciples and unconditional election to salvation is also seen to be unfounded because earlier in his ministry Jesus reminds the twelve: “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” (John 6:70). Judas Iscariot was just as chosen as the other eleven, but he chose to reject the high call of service for the sake of the gospel. Yet Calvinists insist that those whom God elects or choose will inevitably achieve the salvation to which God elected them. Saved by Grace through Faith or Saved by Decree?A Biblical and Theological Critique of Calvinist SoteriologyBy Geoffrey D. Robinson
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Post by rockson on Feb 2, 2023 3:18:54 GMT -8
Citing this text, Horton remarks that “God’s own love, mercy, and freedom determined that we would belong to him in his Son.” While some generalize this verse to all believers, as Horton does here, in fact these words were specifically spoken to Jesus’s disciples during the Last Supper. He was preparing them for his imminent departure, and laying out the groundwork of his expectations for the soon-to-be apostles. This context makes clear therefore that Jesus’s electing was a choosing for service, not salvation. These were the men Jesus had chosen to continue his work of gospel proclamation throughout the world, and who would subsequently become the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20). So, this was a call to serve in that important role and bear fruit in that service, it was not a call to salvation; their own spiritual relationship would, like all other believers, require their ongoing faith and repentance. Any connection between Jesus’s choosing of his disciples and unconditional election to salvation is also seen to be unfounded because earlier in his ministry Jesus reminds the twelve: “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” (John 6:70). Judas Iscariot was just as chosen as the other eleven, but he chose to reject the high call of service for the sake of the gospel. Yet Calvinists insist that those whom God elects or choose will inevitably achieve the salvation to which God elected them. Saved by Grace through Faith or Saved by Decree?A Biblical and Theological Critique of Calvinist SoteriologyBy Geoffrey D. RobinsonA very informative post. The part where it mentions Judas that he was chose confirms what you've stated that he and the other disciples were chosen for service. If it meant some type of irresistible grace choosing Judas would never have fell back.
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Post by civic on Feb 2, 2023 12:50:23 GMT -8
Citing this text, Horton remarks that “God’s own love, mercy, and freedom determined that we would belong to him in his Son.” While some generalize this verse to all believers, as Horton does here, in fact these words were specifically spoken to Jesus’s disciples during the Last Supper. He was preparing them for his imminent departure, and laying out the groundwork of his expectations for the soon-to-be apostles. This context makes clear therefore that Jesus’s electing was a choosing for service, not salvation. These were the men Jesus had chosen to continue his work of gospel proclamation throughout the world, and who would subsequently become the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20). So, this was a call to serve in that important role and bear fruit in that service, it was not a call to salvation; their own spiritual relationship would, like all other believers, require their ongoing faith and repentance. Any connection between Jesus’s choosing of his disciples and unconditional election to salvation is also seen to be unfounded because earlier in his ministry Jesus reminds the twelve: “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” (John 6:70). Judas Iscariot was just as chosen as the other eleven, but he chose to reject the high call of service for the sake of the gospel. Yet Calvinists insist that those whom God elects or choose will inevitably achieve the salvation to which God elected them. Saved by Grace through Faith or Saved by Decree?A Biblical and Theological Critique of Calvinist SoteriologyBy Geoffrey D. RobinsonA very informative post. The part where it mentions Judas that he was chose confirms what you've stated that he and the other disciples were chosen for service. If it meant some type of irresistible grace choosing Judas would never have fell back. I just ordered the book myself going to give it a read.
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