genez
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Post by genez on Sept 3, 2022 20:16:12 GMT -8
Its no wonder we are in such trouble..... LOL ...... Classic ...... The next thing you know we will be sitting around the campfire talking about felings!! God help us!!! Right now we are heading into deep trouble. Jesus said there would be trouble for one's nation if too many in that nation persisted in living by subjective teachings. Only when sound doctrine is being sought and accepted that those who do will the effect of producing "salt." Salt was used as a preservative and as as for producing good taste. A nation's culture will function in good taste as long as in the land enough believers choose for sound thinking with the Word of God. You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot." Matthew 5:13 ........................................... There have been great nations in the past that had been at one time been blessed by God. Blessed for having a strong element of Bible teaching being accepted in their land. Then came a time after too many believers became spiritually apathetic and subjective in their thinking (by neglecting and refusing sound doctrine). God removed their national blessings because of being judged as having become worthless (having lost its saltiness) by God. Those once great nations ended up becoming trampled on by men as their nation went under. Keep in mind. If only ten righteous were found in Sodom it would have remained standing. Ten would have been salt and preserved the land. It only takes a certain amount of solid believers in a land to find itself a recipient of God's national blessings. grace and peace ....... |
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yacker
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Post by yacker on Sept 3, 2022 21:56:38 GMT -8
Its no wonder we are in such trouble..... You can speak for yourself not others in this scenario but if you think salvation is inner peace you sure are in dire trouble Isiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. |
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yacker
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Posts: 51
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Post by yacker on Sept 3, 2022 22:04:50 GMT -8
Its no wonder we are in such trouble..... LOL ...... Classic ...... The next thing you know we will be sitting around the campfire talking about felings!! God help us!!! Without Jesus you cant do anything, but how about making disciples of all nations how about putting love into action through Charity, or you could be a mocker or you could really up the anti and try and change what salvation is, its up to you but if you don't have Jesus you aren't doing anything for God so it wouldn't be you anyway it would be God working through you, and sometimes that could be sitting around the campfire talking about feelings, maybe like when Jesus said to Peter Do you love me? John 21 15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. |
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genez
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Post by genez on Sept 4, 2022 17:14:40 GMT -8
Its no wonder we are in such trouble..... You can speak for yourself not others in this scenario but if you think salvation is inner peace you sure are in dire trouble Isiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. Salvation is a word for more than just being saved from the Lake of Fire. It seems you think that the word "salvation" has only one application. There is more than one way the word can be used. Here is an example of what I speak: www.fbbc.com/messages/hyles_nation.htm. |
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slyzr
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Post by slyzr on Sept 6, 2022 8:33:56 GMT -8
LOL ...... Classic ...... The next thing you know we will be sitting around the campfire talking about felings!! God help us!!! Without Jesus you cant do anything, but how about making disciples of all nations how about putting love into action through Charity, or you could be a mocker or you could really up the anti and try and change what salvation is, its up to you but if you don't have Jesus you aren't doing anything for God so it wouldn't be you anyway it would be God working through you, and sometimes that could be sitting around the campfire talking about feelings, maybe like when Jesus said to Peter Do you love me? John 21 15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. The discussion is focused around salvtion of the soul. |
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slyzr
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Post by slyzr on Sept 6, 2022 10:08:45 GMT -8
Thanks for the post, #1. the spirit in our Bodies are God's for he gave them to us. Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:" and when we die, the first death, the spirit returns to God who gave it. scripture, Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." well, the dust/the body, and the spirit, are know where they go, and where or to whom both belong, spirit God, dust earth. so that leaves the SOUL, which should be addressed and to tell the truth our souls are not ours, Ezekiel 18:4 " Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Can you provide an example in scripture where a disembodied spirit occurs? He touched on that. (bolded red) I'm curious about the second death. Is that for those who could not "save their souls"? Which was never them anyway? |
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Post by Theophilus on Sept 6, 2022 15:42:48 GMT -8
Can you provide an example in scripture where a disembodied spirit occurs? He touched on that. (bolded red) I'm curious about the second death. Is that for those who could not "save their souls"? Which was never them anyway? Death, Second Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Dictionary (2) “Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life . . . He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death” (Rev. 2:10–11). The meaning of this verse is that people without Christ when they face God’s judgment will be condemned to eternal punishment in hell or “the second death.” |
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Post by Theophilus on Sept 6, 2022 15:46:51 GMT -8
Speaking to those who believe unto the end, Jesus said in Revelation 2:7, 11, “I will grant [them] to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God … [They] will not be hurt by the second death.” The reference to the Tree of Life is clearly Edenic. The first death refers to physical death, brought by Adam’s sin and expulsion from Eden. Since all humans, believers and unbelievers alike, are resurrected before judgment, the second death is the final judgment (Rev. 21:8). Those who continue to live with God in a new Eden do not suffer the second death.
Why This Matters
Many Christians have an inadequate view of the afterlife. Scripture doesn’t tell us everything about what it will be like, but some aspects are certain. We aren’t going to be playing harps or singing endlessly while floating around on clouds. We won’t just be sitting on celestial couches chatting with departed loved ones or well-known believers from the past.
Rather, we will be living the life Eden offered—we will be busy enjoying and caring for what God has made, side by side with the divine beings who remained loyal to him. Heaven and earth will no longer be separate places.
Knowing our destiny ought to mold our thinking in the here and now. As Paul said, “What no one ever saw or heard, what no one ever thought could happen, is the very thing God prepared for those who love him” (1 Cor. 2:9 gnt). Knowing this spectacular, glorious outcome helps keep our present circumstances in perspective. After Paul wrote the words we just read, he said this in his second letter to the Corinthians:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction.… For we do not want you to be unaware, brothers, of the affliction we experienced in Asia. For we were so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself. Indeed, we felt that we had received the sentence of death. But that was to make us rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead. (2 Cor. 1:3–9)
God can preserve us in life. But even in death, we will be raised to sit with Jesus on his throne (Rev. 3:21).
We either live with our destination in view, or we don’t. And our awareness of our destiny ought to alter our behavior. If you knew you’d someday be sharing an apartment or working in the same office as that person you criticize, belittle, and otherwise disdain, you’d invest a little more effort into being a peacemaker, an encourager, and perhaps even a friend to that person. How is it that we treat fellow believers so poorly, then? How is it that we don’t put as much energy into moving the unbeliever toward Jesus as we do into engaging with him or her as an enemy? We either have eternity in view, or we don’t.
Supernatural Michael S. Heiser
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2022 8:34:07 GMT -8
Can you provide an example in scripture where a disembodied spirit occurs? He touched on that. (bolded red) No, he did not. Using one verse to justify an entire, larger doctrinal position is called "proof-texting," and that kind of proof-texting is always bad methodology and invariably leads to bad thinking, bad doctrine, and bad doctrine. That one verse cannot and should not be rendered apart from all else scripture says on the matter. That is why I asked the question I asked. There are no disembodied spirits in the Bible. They ALL have some form of mass, or body assigned to them! This is especially so in a post-resurrection pint of view. Jesus rose from the grave in a body!!! At the fiery lake judgment there are bodies thrown in. They have teeth that gnash. The suffering rich man wants a drop of water on his tongue. The "ghosts" summoned from the grave can be seen. They are not disembodied. They lack the body buriied, the one rotting in the ground, but they are not lacking a body. So, my question is valid. And it remains unanswered. It's an important and op-relevant question, so it should not be avoided, dismissed, or ignored. One of the reasons we (otherwise earnest and well-meaning) Christians fall prey to this erroneous way oof thinking is because of the popularity of the tripartite view of humans. It is a useful construct, and I don't reject it out of hand, but it is not a complete view of the human creature because it fails to recognize the fact no human is properly called a human if any one of the three components are missing. The tripartite view was developed from a specific way of reading the KJV that begat the "body," "spirit," and "soul," perspective. What the Hebrew actually states is a body was formed out of dust, the breath of life (NOT a spirit) was breathed into that pile of dust, and a living being (NOT a soul) was made. The tripartite view arose after the KJV came to prominence; it was not a perspective the 17th century English reader would have inherently understood from the text. Now, 400 years later, we have a host of Christians influenced by the tripartite model due to teachers like Watchman Nee (I doubt Nee was trying to set doctrine when He wrote the Spiritual Man 70 years ago). The existence of post-Babylonian Judaism and various cult positions (like the SDA's "soul sleep") don't help. The entire specturm can be addressed by the answer to the single simple question I asked. Where are the disembodied spirits in scripture? Because if there are no disembodied spirits (or souls) then we ought to all collaboratively agree with the precedent repeatedly set in scripture and think accordingly. In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul makes it very clear there is a one-to-one correlation between the body buried and the body raised. If Jesus is the "prototype" then this is undeniable. We will be raised in a body that is incorruptible and immortal. The body raised is different from the body sown. Luke 23:43And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”Luke 24:39-40See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; touch me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you plainly see that I have. And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.”John 20:27Then Jesus said to Thomas, "Put your finger here and look at my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."1 Corinthians 15:35-38, 42-44But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of [o]something else. 38But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.... 42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. 43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
2 Corinthians 5:6-86Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8but we are of good courage and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.... 1 John 1:1What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands...There is a body. Even angels have bodies. 2 Kings 6:17Then Elisha prayed and said, “LORD, please, open his eyes so that he may see.” And the LORD opened the servant’s eyes, and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.We can't see them, but they are all around us and they have bodies. Maybe I'm wrong. Can anyone provide for me an example in scripture of a disembodied spirt? Is so then post it. If not then stop believing in such things and adjust thinking, doctrine, and practice to aligned with what scripture does say. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2022 8:47:13 GMT -8
Can you provide an example in scripture where a disembodied spirit occurs? I'm curious about the second death. Is that for those who could not "save their souls"? Which was never them anyway? I do not believe any can or will get the "second death," or the "salvation of the souls" correct if the neither the soul nor the whole human is correctly understood (as scripture asserts these things). Since the scriptures do not provide us with an example of a disembodied spirt (or soul) I will respectfully suggest thinking such things exist is incorrect and will lead to other errors. I will also suggest the mention of a "second death" should be understood in its stated context because there a lot more than two deaths in the Bible. Transgressional death (most people call it spiritual death), Physical death, Dead in Christ, Dead to sin, The "second death". The death of death. There's a bunch of deaths is scripture. If a person dies dead then they are going to die dead dead  . If a human physically dies while dead in sin then they will face another death after physical death that is so egregious even death itself is destroyed. If, on the other hand, a person who has become dead in sin dies physically while also being dead in Christ then s/he will be raised incorruptible and immortal and NOT die the second death so deadly it makes death dead. But none of them will be disembodied spirits (or souls). Luke 13:28In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God. Teeth gnashing. Seeing the patriarchs and prophets. Bodies. Not disembodied spirits or souls. |
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alive
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Post by alive on Sept 8, 2022 7:30:22 GMT -8
I'm curious about the second death. Is that for those who could not "save their souls"? Which was never them anyway? I do not believe any can or will get the "second death," or the "salvation of the souls" correct if the neither the soul nor the whole human is correctly understood (as scripture asserts these things). Since the scriptures do not provide us with an example of a disembodied spirt (or soul) I will respectfully suggest thinking such things exist is incorrect and will lead to other errors. I will also suggest the mention of a "second death" should be understood in its stated context because there a lot more than two deaths in the Bible. Transgressional death (most people call it spiritual death), Physical death, Dead in Christ, Dead to sin, The "second death". The death of death. There's a bunch of deaths is scripture. If a person dies dead then they are going to die dead dead . If a human physically dies while dead in sin then they will face another death after physical death that is so egregious even death itself is destroyed. If, on the other hand, a person who has become dead in sin dies physically while also being dead in Christ then s/he will be raised incorruptible and immortal and NOT die the second death so deadly it makes death dead. But none of them will be disembodied spirits (or souls). Luke 13:28In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God. Teeth gnashing. Seeing the patriarchs and prophets. Bodies. Not disembodied spirits or souls. Well presented! And, IMO correctly laid out. |
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alive
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Post by alive on Sept 8, 2022 7:40:50 GMT -8
I would like to offer a thought on the part of this discussion relating to the salvation of the soul or more aptly and 'ongoing salvation' after being regenerated and placed into Christ of the Father.
Sanctification I connect with be "changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another".
I have used the analogy of the progressive taking of the land of Canaan, as the Lord did His work in that process.
As we abide in Christ and He is dealing with various aspects of our thinking and daily walk--He touches something in us that is not good, not holy, not His likeness, sin, of this world, etc.---that thing is replaced by that which honors God and is used for His purpose. Sanctification. A process as God does that work in us. For His purpose. For His Glory. Just as the Land was taken when the bad guys were cast out and or killed. The Word of God by the Holy Spirit and the Life of Christ within accomplishes this.
To add--we cannot accomplish this ourselves.
"Without me, you can do nothing".
No analogy is perfect or complete, but it has worked for me. Holy Ground. Set aside for His purpose.
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eleos
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Post by eleos on Sept 26, 2022 8:33:00 GMT -8
Not everyone agrees that there is a second salvation, in spite of the two direct statements in God's Word. Peter tells us that the salvation of the soul is the goal of our faith. (1 Peter 1:9). James tells us that it is the implanted Word that is able to save the soul (James 1:21).
Some argue that this is 'progressive sanctification. I beg to differ. The spirit of man and his soul are distinct. They have different functions. Fundamentally, the spirit is the real "me" and the soul is the means by which we express ourselves to the outer realm. As Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord! My spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour!" (Luke 1:46)
We read many scriptures that seem contradictory. We are saved when we receive Christ (John 1:12). Or no, not really. We are saved when we confess Him as Lord and believe that God raised Him from the dead. How do we reconcile these differences? If we realise that the initial salvation is to be born again, and that the soul is saved progressively, it all makes perfect sense.
This difference is the answer to "OSAS" disputes. It is not possible to be unborn again, but it is certainly possible to lose the salvation of the soul in experience. I know a number of embittered and disillusioned Christians who are saved, but show no reality of Christ in their lives. I know others who are shallow they are like spiritual infants even after decades. Some think that the parable of the sower only relates to the initial conversion experience. This is not so. It applies for the lifetime of the believer.
Not convinced? Tell me then, what does this mean: “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” (1 Peter 4:18)
It is not at all hard to be saved initially. Receive Christ and God does the rest. There are many references that state this, for example, 1 Corinthians 1:30 "It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption."
The issue is that we have a life source that is opposed to God. It is the life that Adam had at his creation. Adam's life was corrupted when he disobeyed God. The life in the soul is not necessarily evil. However, it is independent of God. It is self centred and self interested. It is that part of us, especially the "good" part, that must be denied. Sin is bad, but at least we recognise it readily. Self is much more devious. Much can be done that is good in man's eyes. God is not impressed. Only what is according to His will and done in His power, to His glory, pleases Him.
This is what Lord Jesus meant by losing our lives. Our self will, our ambitions, our dreams, even our relationships must go to the cross so that the life of Christ may come to the fore. Two objects cannot occupy the same space. You cannot have God's will and self will at the same time.
Eventually, and sometimes through much tribulation, our will (mostly) lines up with God's will. And that is the salvation of the soul. That is the goal of our faith.
Perfection is not available in this life. However, we can and should be experiencing transformation, from glory to glory as we allow God to effect the change.
Thanks for the post, #1. the spirit in our Bodies are God's for he gave them to us. Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:" and when we die, the first death, the spirit returns to God who gave it. scripture, Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." well, the dust/the body, and the spirit, are know where they go, and where or to whom both belong, spirit God, dust earth. so that leaves the SOUL, which should be addressed and to tell the truth our souls are not ours, Ezekiel 18:4 " Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." well, the dust/the body, and the spirit, are know where they go, and where or to whom both belong, spirit God, dust earth. so that leaves the SOUL, which should be addressed Yes the "soul" does need to be addressed ... that is .... do we have something that is within us that can be separated from us? No ... the "soul" is the makeup of the entire person .... what is a soul? The answer is found in Geneisis 2:7 ... defines how we came into being (became alive) Berean Standard Bible Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being. In Hebrew, the term nephesh and in Greek, psuche are both translated as “soul” in the Bible. However, they can also be translated as “life” or “person.” The “soul” can weep (Jeremiah 13:17). “Souls” can be taken captive (Jeremiah 52:28-30). “Souls” can be baptized (Acts 2:41). And yes, the “soul” can die (Ezekiel 18:4; James 5:20; Revelation 20:4; Psalm 89:48; Job 36:14; Leviticus 19:8; 21:1, 11). The “soul,” in the Bible, is a whole person with consciousness, desires and emotions. Physical Body + Breath of Life from God = Human Soul We are not immortal in any way .... the gift of immortality happens when Jesus returns and we are changed. 1 Corinthians 15:54 Berean Standard Bible When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal (subject to death) with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” We do not become immortal until Jesus returns and changes us. Until then we are subject to death, the 1st death (earthly) and for some the 2nd death (for eternity). |
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slyzr
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Post by slyzr on Nov 15, 2022 14:47:03 GMT -8
Thanks for the post, #1. the spirit in our Bodies are God's for he gave them to us. Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:" and when we die, the first death, the spirit returns to God who gave it. scripture, Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." well, the dust/the body, and the spirit, are know where they go, and where or to whom both belong, spirit God, dust earth. so that leaves the SOUL, which should be addressed and to tell the truth our souls are not ours, Ezekiel 18:4 " Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." well, the dust/the body, and the spirit, are know where they go, and where or to whom both belong, spirit God, dust earth. so that leaves the SOUL, which should be addressed Yes the "soul" does need to be addressed ... that is .... do we have something that is within us that can be separated from us? No ... the "soul" is the makeup of the entire person .... what is a soul? The answer is found in Geneisis 2:7 ... defines how we came into being (became alive) Berean Standard Bible Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being. In Hebrew, the term nephesh and in Greek, psuche are both translated as “soul” in the Bible. However, they can also be translated as “life” or “person.” The “soul” can weep (Jeremiah 13:17). “Souls” can be taken captive (Jeremiah 52:28-30). “Souls” can be baptized (Acts 2:41). And yes, the “soul” can die (Ezekiel 18:4; James 5:20; Revelation 20:4; Psalm 89:48; Job 36:14; Leviticus 19:8; 21:1, 11). The “soul,” in the Bible, is a whole person with consciousness, desires and emotions. Physical Body + Breath of Life from God = Human Soul We are not immortal in any way .... the gift of immortality happens when Jesus returns and we are changed. 1 Corinthians 15:54
Berean Standard Bible
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal (subject to death) with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”We do not become immortal until Jesus returns and changes us. Until then we are subject to death, the 1st death (earthly) and for some the 2nd death (for eternity). The bolded above is the Paul's narrrative. We are all dead ....... covered to never be. I realize some of you tend to believe such .... But there should still be some thing, that was covered up that matters. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2022 14:33:58 GMT -8
Not everyone agrees that there is a second salvation, in spite of the two direct statements in God's Word. Peter tells us that the salvation of the soul is the goal of our faith. (1 Peter 1:9). James tells us that it is the implanted Word that is able to save the soul (James 1:21).
Some argue that this is 'progressive sanctification. I beg to differ. The spirit of man and his soul are distinct. They have different functions. Fundamentally, the spirit is the real "me" and the soul is the means by which we express ourselves to the outer realm. As Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord! My spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour!" (Luke 1:46)
We read many scriptures that seem contradictory. We are saved when we receive Christ (John 1:12). Or no, not really. We are saved when we confess Him as Lord and believe that God raised Him from the dead. How do we reconcile these differences? If we realise that the initial salvation is to be born again, and that the soul is saved progressively, it all makes perfect sense.
This difference is the answer to "OSAS" disputes. It is not possible to be unborn again, but it is certainly possible to lose the salvation of the soul in experience. I know a number of embittered and disillusioned Christians who are saved, but show no reality of Christ in their lives. I know others who are shallow they are like spiritual infants even after decades. Some think that the parable of the sower only relates to the initial conversion experience. This is not so. It applies for the lifetime of the believer.
Not convinced? Tell me then, what does this mean: “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” (1 Peter 4:18)
It is not at all hard to be saved initially. Receive Christ and God does the rest. There are many references that state this, for example, 1 Corinthians 1:30 "It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption."
The issue is that we have a life source that is opposed to God. It is the life that Adam had at his creation. Adam's life was corrupted when he disobeyed God. The life in the soul is not necessarily evil. However, it is independent of God. It is self centred and self interested. It is that part of us, especially the "good" part, that must be denied. Sin is bad, but at least we recognise it readily. Self is much more devious. Much can be done that is good in man's eyes. God is not impressed. Only what is according to His will and done in His power, to His glory, pleases Him.
This is what Lord Jesus meant by losing our lives. Our self will, our ambitions, our dreams, even our relationships must go to the cross so that the life of Christ may come to the fore. Two objects cannot occupy the same space. You cannot have God's will and self will at the same time.
Eventually, and sometimes through much tribulation, our will (mostly) lines up with God's will. And that is the salvation of the soul. That is the goal of our faith.
Perfection is not available in this life. However, we can and should be experiencing transformation, from glory to glory as we allow God to effect the change.
Interesting op. Can you provide me with scripture that reports a person having a saved soul but not a saved spirit? Or how about someone the scripture reports having a saved spirit but not a saved soul? Is it possible the two are different but overlapping? I'm curious about this seeming issue with "'OSAS' disputes and "experiencing transformation." The Reformed perspective of assurance does not in any way negate or exclude the prospect of transformation. I ask that with some hesitancy because I don't want all the Cals and Arms to hijack the thread in an argument over their respective points of view but I wonder why you mentioned OSAS in a post about transformation. I'm also curious about the way salvation is couched as a goal. I truly appreciate your providing the relevant texts of scripture, but I'm concerned about the scriptures that aren't cited. Scripture speaks of salvation in several diverse ways. You've touched on two of them: the salvation of the soul and the salvation of the spirit. I was reminded of Paul's comment instructional inclination to deliver " such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord..." Hand them over so their flesh will be destroyed but their spirit (not their soul?) may be saved. Huh.... More specifically to my particular curiosity, the scriptures speak of salvation in temporally diverse ways: we ARE saved, we are BEING saved, and we WILL BE saved. Past-tense, present ongoing tense, and future tense. It also speaks of salvation diversely in the sense that there are earthly conditions or events from which salvation is promised and eternal conditions from which we will be saved. A person can survive an earthly tribulation (like a war or a tsunami) AND survive the throne of judgment. In these respects, there are differences and overlaps between soteriology and eschatology.... and I say that judiciously and with some reluctance because I don't want all the Dispensationalists to turn this into a thread on end times. Lastly, if I understand the op correctly, the subject is transformation. Are there Christians who don't think transformation is a thing? If no such Christian exists and we all acknowledge, affirm, and to some degree or another understand the necessity of transformation after conversion, then what is the specific point being discussed? We're all saved her, right? We're all somewhere in the midst of the transformative process described in this op, yes? Is this op preaching to the choir, or am I missing something? So, if you're willing, help me understand the point of commentary (or inquiry) more succinctly before I dive in. Thx |
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