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Post by TibiasDad on Jan 19, 2023 6:32:53 GMT -8
Thanks for the post, #1. the spirit in our Bodies are God's for he gave them to us. Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:" and when we die, the first death, the spirit returns to God who gave it. scripture, Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." well, the dust/the body, and the spirit, are know where they go, and where or to whom both belong, spirit God, dust earth. so that leaves the SOUL, which should be addressed and to tell the truth our souls are not ours, Ezekiel 18:4 " Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Can you provide an example in scripture where a disembodied spirit occurs? 1Samuel 28 Doug |
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Post by Redeemed on Jan 19, 2023 12:44:20 GMT -8
TibiasDadYou are right Doug To the medium’s surprise, Samuel appears. Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!” And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.” So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
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Post by makesends on Jan 19, 2023 14:47:55 GMT -8
TibiasDad You are right Doug To the medium’s surprise, Samuel appears. Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!” And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.” So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Can something disembodied be dressed as Samuel was? What do you think 'the body' is, after death? After resurrection? How does God see this temporal mode of existence we like to appeal to, in deriving our conceptions of the non-temporal realm? How do you know that death and resurrection are not (to use our necessarily temporal language) "simultaneous"? |
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Post by civic on Jan 19, 2023 15:02:15 GMT -8
TibiasDad You are right Doug To the medium’s surprise, Samuel appears. Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!” And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.” So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Can something disembodied be dressed as Samuel was? What do you think 'the body' is, after death? After resurrection? How does God see this temporal mode of existence we like to appeal to, in deriving our conceptions of the non-temporal realm? How do you know that death and resurrection are not (to use our necessarily temporal language) "simultaneous"? We know the Bible says angels have been entertained by man unknowingly but I’ve not heard that with man after death prior to the resurrection. |
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Post by Parker on Jan 19, 2023 15:49:22 GMT -8
TibiasDad You are right Doug To the medium’s surprise, Samuel appears. Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!” And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.” So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Can something disembodied be dressed as Samuel was? What do you think 'the body' is, after death? After resurrection? How does God see this temporal mode of existence we like to appeal to, in deriving our conceptions of the non-temporal realm? How do you know that death and resurrection are not (to use our necessarily temporal language) "simultaneous"? So after doing a little study on this and what you pointed out I've come to a different conclusion. The Bible never says it was Samuel. Verse 14 says, “Saul perceived that it was Samuel.” What we perceived that we saw is not always what we actually saw. One synonym for “perceive” is “think.” So, Saul thought it was Samuel, but it wasn’t Samuel. Samuel was dead. At a careless glance it may look like Samuel actually appeared to Saul, but there is a big difference between perception and fact! Thanks for the good looking out. |
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Post by Redeemed on Jan 19, 2023 16:02:23 GMT -8
Can something disembodied be dressed as Samuel was? What do you think 'the body' is, after death? After resurrection? How does God see this temporal mode of existence we like to appeal to, in deriving our conceptions of the non-temporal realm? How do you know that death and resurrection are not (to use our necessarily temporal language) "simultaneous"? So after doing a little study on this and what you pointed out I've come to a different conclusion. The Bible never says it was Samuel. Verse 14 says, “Saul perceived that it was Samuel.” What we perceived that we saw is not always what we actually saw. One synonym for “perceive” is “think.” So, Saul thought it was Samuel, but it wasn’t Samuel. Samuel was dead. At a careless glance it may look like Samuel actually appeared to Saul, but there is a big difference between perception and fact! Thanks for the good looking out. Ok I get it. I could have been like a Vision. If it was a vision it came with the prophecy. Samuel told Saul that Israel would be defeated by the Philistines and then prophesied that Saul and his sons “will be with me” (1 Samuel 28:19). |
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Post by TibiasDad on Jan 20, 2023 20:04:59 GMT -8
Can something disembodied be dressed as Samuel was? What do you think 'the body' is, after death? After resurrection? How does God see this temporal mode of existence we like to appeal to, in deriving our conceptions of the non-temporal realm? How do you know that death and resurrection are not (to use our necessarily temporal language) "simultaneous"? So after doing a little study on this and what you pointed out I've come to a different conclusion. The Bible never says it was Samuel. Verse 14 says, “Saul perceived that it was Samuel.” What we perceived that we saw is not always what we actually saw. One synonym for “perceive” is “think.” So, Saul thought it was Samuel, but it wasn’t Samuel. Samuel was dead. At a careless glance it may look like Samuel actually appeared to Saul, but there is a big difference between perception and fact! Thanks for the good looking out. Verse 15, however, says שְׁמוּאֵל֙, " Samuel said to Saul"! It does not say the " spirit said to Saul", or "that which was thought to be Samuel said to Saul". So it would seem the Holy Spirit has inspired the use of Samuel as the actual character conversing with Saul. Furthermore, the word translated "perceived" in 28:14, is from the root word יָדַע (yada) which means to know, which, I believe, in reference to a personage, means to know in in the sense of realizing or recognizing concretely the identity of the person. (I do not know Hebrew, so I am leaning on Brown-Driver-Briggs.)This said, Keil and Delitzsch OT Commentary says, regarding 28:14, that "Saul recognised from this that the person who had been called up was Samuel, and he fell upon his face to the ground, to give expression to his reverence." Doug |
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Post by TibiasDad on Jan 20, 2023 20:12:54 GMT -8
TibiasDad You are right Doug To the medium’s surprise, Samuel appears. Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!” And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.” So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Can something disembodied be dressed as Samuel was? What do you think 'the body' is, after death? After resurrection? How does God see this temporal mode of existence we like to appeal to, in deriving our conceptions of the non-temporal realm? How do you know that death and resurrection are not (to use our necessarily temporal language) "simultaneous"? Spirit creatures, such as angels, appear in various type and descriptions of garments, but they are not physical in their being. They appear to be, but are not actually physical bodies! Doug |
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Post by civic on Jan 21, 2023 4:29:53 GMT -8
Can something disembodied be dressed as Samuel was? What do you think 'the body' is, after death? After resurrection? How does God see this temporal mode of existence we like to appeal to, in deriving our conceptions of the non-temporal realm? How do you know that death and resurrection are not (to use our necessarily temporal language) "simultaneous"? Spirit creatures, such as angels, appear in various type and descriptions of garments, but they are not physical in their being. They appear to be, but are not actually physical bodies! Doug Yes that is what I believe as well Doug. |
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Post by Parker on Jan 21, 2023 6:03:16 GMT -8
So after doing a little study on this and what you pointed out I've come to a different conclusion. The Bible never says it was Samuel. Verse 14 says, “Saul perceived that it was Samuel.” What we perceived that we saw is not always what we actually saw. One synonym for “perceive” is “think.” So, Saul thought it was Samuel, but it wasn’t Samuel. Samuel was dead. At a careless glance it may look like Samuel actually appeared to Saul, but there is a big difference between perception and fact! Thanks for the good looking out. Verse 15, however, says שְׁמוּאֵל֙, " Samuel said to Saul"! It does not say the " spirit said to Saul", or "that which was thought to be Samuel said to Saul". So it would seem the Holy Spirit has inspired the use of Samuel as the actual character conversing with Saul. Furthermore, the word translated "perceived" in 28:14, is from the root word יָדַע (yada) which means to know, which, I believe, in reference to a personage, means to know in in the sense of realizing or recognizing concretely the identity of the person. (I do not know Hebrew, so I am leaning on Brown-Driver-Briggs.)This said, Keil and Delitzsch OT Commentary says, regarding 28:14, that "Saul recognised from this that the person who had been called up was Samuel, and he fell upon his face to the ground, to give expression to his reverence." Doug Sounds Like you know what you're talking about to me. I never really had a Problem with Samuel being called up. Then again maybe Saul had a glimpse into the spiritual Realm. I'll take another look at it today. And thanks for sharing your insight with us Doug. |
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Post by civic on Jan 21, 2023 15:59:31 GMT -8
NT
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Post by civic on Jan 21, 2023 16:01:31 GMT -8
Verse 15, however, says שְׁמוּאֵל֙, " Samuel said to Saul"! It does not say the " spirit said to Saul", or "that which was thought to be Samuel said to Saul". So it would seem the Holy Spirit has inspired the use of Samuel as the actual character conversing with Saul. Furthermore, the word translated "perceived" in 28:14, is from the root word יָדַע (yada) which means to know, which, I believe, in reference to a personage, means to know in in the sense of realizing or recognizing concretely the identity of the person. (I do not know Hebrew, so I am leaning on Brown-Driver-Briggs.)This said, Keil and Delitzsch OT Commentary says, regarding 28:14, that "Saul recognised from this that the person who had been called up was Samuel, and he fell upon his face to the ground, to give expression to his reverence." Doug Sounds Like you know what you're talking about to me. I never really had a Problem with Samuel being called up. Then again maybe Saul had a glimpse into the spiritual Realm. I'll take another look at it today. And thanks for sharing your insight with us Doug. I have always learned from Doug even when I was a calvinist. He has the gift of teaching and I continue to learn from his posts on the forum. |
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Post by Bronson on Apr 9, 2023 16:31:26 GMT -8
Sounds Like you know what you're talking about to me. I never really had a Problem with Samuel being called up. Then again maybe Saul had a glimpse into the spiritual Realm. I'll take another look at it today. And thanks for sharing your insight with us Doug. I have always learned from Doug even when I was a calvinist. He has the gift of teaching and I continue to learn from his posts on the forum. So you no longer calvinist? That's interesting. I've always been non-denominational. It's always worked out pretty good for me just in case they start getting too weird I don't have a problem moving on. And from what I've heard Calvinists can get pretty weird. Not Ex-Calvinists of course  |
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Post by civic on Apr 9, 2023 16:40:02 GMT -8
I have always learned from Doug even when I was a calvinist. He has the gift of teaching and I continue to learn from his posts on the forum. So you no longer calvinist? That's interesting. I've always been non-denominational. It's always worked out pretty good for me just in case they start getting too weird I don't have a problem moving on. And from what I've heard Calvinists can get pretty weird. Not Ex-Calvinists of course How did you find out about this forum ? Thanks |
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Post by Bronson on Apr 9, 2023 17:11:24 GMT -8
The way I found this form was I did a web search for something that I can't remember now but this form came up and I followed the link as the title sounded interesting. After reading a few posts and seen that everyone was pretty mellow I decided to stick around. As you can tell from my avatar my main interest is in apologetics but there are a lot of interesting topics on this forum. And the posters here seem to research what they're posting. I did notice there's a Blog but I haven't had time to check it out yet. Since I'm retired and have a lot of time in my hands, I'm sure I'll get to it.
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