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Post by papalandshark on Aug 27, 2022 21:08:08 GMT -8
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2022 6:15:14 GMT -8
Yep. I was Arminian until I read and reflected on scripture's repeated report of God as the causal agent in my salvation each and every step of the way, along with the complete absence of any explicit report of my volitional agency as causal. The more I read and the more I reflected the more I came to realize I had been reading into scripture human agency where none was actually stated. This brought me to the point where I had to either submit my belief to scripture and change it to be consistent with the explicit report of scripture or continue to read into scripture inferences to meet my views. It is the fundamental question we all face many times: do we really truly submit ourselves to scripture or do we act as the arbiters of God and His word by choosing our perceptions of our experience or what God tells us is actually happening in our experience. We think we know what we are experiencing but scripture tells us we are wrong. It's not only salvation or regeneration where this occurs. God spoke through Jeremiah told his hearers the heart is deceitful above all else. In scripture the heart is many things but above all else it is deceitful. I am sure there is some degree of hyperbole there (ala Gen. 6:9), but the truth of the statement cannot be denied, and yet every time we, the already-converted-to-life-believers) think to ourselves, " No my heart can be trusted because it is not deceitful on this occasion," we are not thinking scripturally, acting in a scripturally-defined obedience, or transforming our mind as scripture directs. This is all the more significant and important when we realize, for the synergist, the recall of our conversion is the recall of the regenerate believer as s/he was during an unregenerate, non-believing, sinful point in his or her life. S/he is in essence saying, " My unregenerate sinful experience is not deceitful. My unregenerate and sinful experience defines God's report, not the other way around." We see this on every occasion "choice" is read into scripture and on every occasion to which an appeal to anecdotal experience is made. Did you not choose? Yes, I did make a choice, but according to scripture my perception of my own choice is unreliable. Salvation is a covenant. Jesus Christ is the mediator of a new covenant. There isn't a single covenant with God in the Bible where God did not initiate that covenant and initiate it unawares of the person or persons He'd chosen, called, and brought into that covenant. Only after the covenant is established are any of them asked. This is true of Noah, Abraham, Moses, Israel, and all the rest. Yet our perception is often different. We think we had a say beforehand. Whole scripture does not support that perception. |
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Post by civic on Aug 28, 2022 6:55:55 GMT -8
Good topic I’ll try and post after my round of golf today / this evening. I have some thoughts from both sides of the fence myself .  |
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Post by papalandshark on Aug 28, 2022 7:26:59 GMT -8
Good topic I’ll try and post after my round of golf today / this evening. I have some thoughts from both sides of the fence myself . Golf? I propose all "traps" on the golf course consist of skeet shooters. They are only allowed a 20% range of fire at a 90% angle from the incoming ball. But I guarantee interest in golf would skyrocket. |
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Post by rockson on Aug 28, 2022 12:06:21 GMT -8
Having trouble understanding the quote boxes and how to function them that is without having long posts of others put down. I'll do it this way, to the one who acknowledged the heart is many things but above all else it is deceitful, and agreed there's some degree of hyperbole there.....sure there is and we don't have to think our heart is deceitful on all occasions. Some people genuinely want God in their life and we know that's not deceitful. Some people actually do want LOVE and fulfillment in their lives and that's not deceitful.
Can some or even many human beings be prone to allowing their sinful desires try to justify wrong doing? Sure but not everybody is like that. Some people WANT reality and that's not deceitful.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2022 12:14:52 GMT -8
Some people genuinely want God in their life and we know that's not deceitful. Some people actually do want LOVE and fulfillment in their lives and that's not deceitful. None of them are non-believing sinful sinners. Show me a single example of an atheist in the Bible who reports he genuinely wants the god in whose existence he denies in his life. Show me. Do not assume a salvific belief in God. And the way to handle the text boxes are to put a word or three below the text box the moment you click to reply. That way you've let the cybergods know something will be posted thereThen you can be manipulated content inside the quote box without erasing the space where you want to reply. I haven't figured how to break a quote box into segments though so if anyone can clue us into that I'd appreciate it. |
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Post by papalandshark on Aug 28, 2022 12:53:47 GMT -8
It's a little difficult to explain without the explanation vanishing. But I'll try.
Any text can be put into the quote box by putting the bbs programmed quote characters around it. These are the "square" brackets "["
Imagine these non-square brackets as if they were square:
(quote) Your text here (/quote)
This will create the quote box around the text. The boxes themselves will "vanish". Like so:
In this way you can break up a large quote or create your own. Enjoy!
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Post by rockson on Aug 28, 2022 13:47:55 GMT -8
No offence but this whole thing by Spurgeon sound good, looks good but isn't. First of all how do you challenge something that's called doctrines of grace. Sounds like even blasphemy to say one is opposed to "grace" teachings. Let me tell you a story. In real life I've had a struggle with hornets on our property. Aug/Sept hornet months Ugh! Went to the stores and sold out of hornet traps. Clerk said they went fast and quick. Got some from another city. Well you put something wonderful in the plastic trap. Apple juice, orange pop, wonderful things! The bugs say to each other how can we be against that! Impossible! So in they go!
You put in some very small pieces of meat to, very small and they can't resist! Thing about Calvinistic thinking that looks like you just can't resist it....it has an appearance of extreme humility I mean who doesn't want to give God ALL the glory??? Who wants to be against ANY teaching of GRACE regardless of how you teach it?? It looks so good the way it seems but NOT! What they don't know though (when it comes to the hornets) is in the mix there's a couple of drops of dish soap...not much just a capsule of it stirred in. When they hit the water it clogs up things about them and they drown! I've dispatched about 150 of them since the other day. Doctrines of Grace sounds good, looks like there's no way you could be against them BUT...BUT what is in the mix? I'm sure all Christians believe in GRACE but what is each one using the term putting in the mix?
Spurgeon begins to ask why did he pray? Why did he read the scriptures'? Why one time and not another? So he sought (from what the OP states) to draw conclusions. Doesn't mean however his conclusions and assessments are correct! His suggestion he felt a conviction or desire to do so even if we accept God put that idea in his mind doesn't mean some irresistible grace made him obey. There's no proof he could not have disobeyed the heavenly desire or vision like Paul stated in Acts 26 where he implied he could have. If he couldn't he wouldn't have said he was not disobedient, thus meaning he could have. And by Spurgeon saying God is the author of our FAITH....yes but such doesn't mean we don't have our part to play in willfully choosing to walk in it. Spurgeon it seems takes out the choosing to willfully walk in it and wants to hold that it's a automation. Not a good mix folks so beware of going into something that looks good and sounds good but is in fact NOT.
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Post by rockson on Aug 28, 2022 13:55:38 GMT -8
It's a little difficult to explain without the explanation vanishing. But I'll try. Any text can be put into the quote box by putting the bbs programmed quote characters around it. These are the "square" brackets I believe I've got it now thanks. And Admin feel free to delete this whole post as I'm sure I'm gong to see it worked. Thanks. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2022 15:36:00 GMT -8
It's a little difficult to explain without the explanation vanishing. But I'll try. Any text can be put into the quote box by putting the bbs programmed quote characters around it. These are the "square" brackets "[" Imagine these non-square brackets as if they were square: (quote) Your text here (/quote) This will create the quote box around the text. The boxes themselves will "vanish". Like so: In this way you can break up a large quote or create your own. Enjoy! I've tried that but it doesn't seem to work consistently. Maybe a pebkac error  |
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Post by papalandshark on Aug 28, 2022 15:52:21 GMT -8
It's a little difficult to explain without the explanation vanishing. But I'll try. Any text can be put into the quote box by putting the bbs programmed quote characters around it. These are the "square" brackets "[" Imagine these non-square brackets as if they were square: (quote) Your text here (/quote) This will create the quote box around the text. The boxes themselves will "vanish". Like so: In this way you can break up a large quote or create your own. Enjoy! I've tried that but it doesn't seem to work consistently. Maybe a pebkac error Possible. Here...try this to see how it works here. Hit the button to reply or "quote" this post. That should bring up all the text in boxes with a place at the bottom to type your response. You'll see two tabs called "preview" and "BBCode". Select BBCode. Voila! All the stuff behind the scenes. |
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Post by dwight92070 on Aug 28, 2022 15:59:48 GMT -8
You can't get around it. If Calvinism is correct, then you and I are just robots, where God does everything or makes us do whatever we do. This is NOT the God of the Bible. This is a "god" who is unfair and unjust, showing no love, except to His elect, and only HATE to His non-elect, because He has predestined them for hell.
It's interesting that Calvinists don't like to talk about their most controversial belief. That is, that God decides who's going to heaven, and who's going to hell, and there's nothing you can do to change God's mind. You won't find that anywhere in the Bible, because it doesn't line up with a God who is gracious, forgiving, and just. To call Calvinism a doctrine or the doctrine of grace is a sham. Fortunately there are true believers in Calvinist churches. Unfortunately they haven't all left Calvinist churches. If Calvinism is true, then God is the author of sin and mankind has no free will. They will deny this, with some gobblety-gook "reasoning", but John Calvin himself affirmed it.
They say that God has predestined the "elect" to be saved. By default, that means He has predestined the "non-elect" to be lost, although they don't like to talk about those unfortunate losers. How convenient it is that every Calvinist JUST HAPPENS to be part of the "elect". If Calvinists were honest, they would have to admit that it's VERY LIKELY that about half of THEIR FOLLOWERS are "non-elect" as well. The very fact that they won't admit that, is but another evidence of the deception that Calvinism is.
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Post by papalandshark on Aug 28, 2022 16:36:15 GMT -8
Well...to start you *could* look up the doctrines of grace and attempt to refute them scripturally. And no offense taken.
I would say that's a little over the top. I would say that, scripturally, opposing the doctrines of grace would be unwise.
Now this is slightly offensive. I'm neither a bug nor whatever eats small pieces of meat. I like large pieces of meat.
Well...anyone who may not be as humble as they think and would rather give the creature a *little* bit of the glory for starters.
I think that most people can recognize "graceless" teaching pretty easily even if the "teacher" attempts to cover it up. Something like comparing those who treasure the doctrines of grace to bugs.
Well so far all you've given about the "mix" is a rather disturbing comparison and an emotional appeal. Alas.
Well...he is the author of the article. He's allowed to share both what he experienced and the scriptural support for that experience. He was, after all, one of the most celebrated evangelists and preachers of his or any one else's time.
Then, pray tell, what made him obey? His sinful nature? His "natural" ability? Come now...we both know the possibility of that is zero. No...he, like all of us who call upon the Lord, was changed in a fundamental fashion. He was brought from unable and unwilling to able and willing. This is the entire canard of "he could have resisted". The natural man has no "free will" toward God. Only against God. The changed will seeks God even if it does not, initially, understands *why* it seeks. The one freed from prison seeks his benefactor to bless and thank Him.
Finally some Scripture! If you mean Acts 26:19-20 then you have misapplied these verses.
19 “So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, practicing deeds appropriate to repentance.
So Saul was brought low and became Paul by a vision of the risen Christ. I'd say this testimony runs in direct opposite of what you claim. Paul was fundamentally changed and willingly, no, urgently began to proclaim the Gospel.
No...he was quite literally changed and demonstrated that change through obedience instead of disobedience. Where prior to his conversion he was persecuting and murdering Christians he abruptly did an about face and started proclaiming the Gospel to everyone within reach.
We willingly walk in our faith by the Power of the Spirit. Else we would not walk at all.
Ah...the robot thing. Truth is that prior to regeneration, as I've said, we cannot and will not pursue the things of God. We are slaves too our sin. If anyone is an "automaton" it is the unregenerate man. Christ frees us to willingly obey. All good "works" are preceeded, and empowered, by the Spirit. It is a fundamental change of heart that *grants*, by grace, ability.
Well I'm glad you got that off your chest but, scripturally, we do not agree.
Grace and peace.
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Post by papalandshark on Aug 28, 2022 17:24:42 GMT -8
Agreed. Your caricature of Calvinism and God is not correct. The natural man will not and cannot do anything God toward save sin. There is your "robot". God changes the unwilling heart to willing. That is not "robotic". That is freedom. So the scriptures, and Calvinism, posits.
No...fair would be every single human going to hell. That some are saved is an astounding display of Love and Mercy through Christ.
Well...we TRY not to belabor the obvious. It's polite.
It's throughout the Bible. Starting with God stating that He does not change and continuing with Him being perfectly willing to save and destroy whomever He wants. And it's "Doctrines of Grace". Plural. Calvinism is just a convenient label in which the doctrines of grace reside.
Well...since I and my fellow Calvinists have been soundly relegated to the ranks of "unbelievers" by this statement I suppose I should just slink off into the outer darkness. Gracious of you to point the way.
You really should tremble when you say such things. God is not the author of sin. He allows it for His purposes which are good by default. I've already addressed the subject of man's free will. Natural man is "free" to sin all the day long. You can call that free if you like. The Bible calls it slavery.
Oh? Do show and tell. I'm fairly certain you have misunderstood whatever Calvin said.
Odd...all the Calvinists I know talk, and write, voluminously on this subject. Perhaps you are reading the wrong "Calvinists"?
Only half? You are quite generous. Calvinists believe that the elect will show themselves to be elect at the Judgement seat. Those who truly professed Christ will be the "elect". Those who did not...well...not so much. In the meantime, in this life, the "elect" are empowered by the Spirit to persevere. The scriptures say that we can have assurance of our salvation. I believe that. Do you?
Well I'm glad you got that off your chest. I pray that this has been helpful to you in some small way.
Grace and peace.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2022 17:56:04 GMT -8
You can't get around it. If Calvinism is correct, then you and I are just robots.... Lame. Just because the way around it is not understood does not mean a way does not exist. Deal with what I posted and don't dodge it with lame answers like "Robot Salvation! Robot Salvation!" Calvinism asserts the volitional agency of the human and explicitly states God has done it no violence. 3.1 God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. Westminster Confession of FaithNo violence to the human will. No robots. Be as critical of your sources as you are of my posts because your sources lied to you. The WCF and Calvin's views are FREE. There is absolutely no excuse for that dross. |
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