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Post by rockson on Aug 28, 2022 18:50:51 GMT -8
Well...to start you *could* look up the doctrines of grace and attempt to refute them scripturally. And no offense taken. I've done that in other sites from time to time through the years. Of course if it's actually what the Bible teaches about GRACE. If the teachings of Calvinists ARE NOT what the scriptures teach about the subject and actually diminish the real LOVE character of God they of course would need to be opposed to. I didn't mean to say you were and it might not have been the BEST analogy however it does make I think a valid point. Something may look good BUT what EXACTLY is in the MIX?
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Post by rockson on Aug 28, 2022 19:11:05 GMT -8
I think that most people can recognize "graceless" teaching pretty easily even if the "teacher" attempts to cover it up. Something like comparing those who treasure the doctrines of grace to bugs. I'd suggest you should get over your feigned offence and not be blind to the point made. You may have something good with GRACE teaching in fact we probably agree with certain things...But what are you putting in the mix? Is it taking you down a wrong path. Valid questions to answer. Sorry Papalandshark but you're appealing to human personalities. Noble Bereans Acts 17 examine the Scriptures daily to see if whatever things are so. How about we just stay with that?
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Post by papalandshark on Aug 28, 2022 21:04:00 GMT -8
So nothing scriptural or substantiative on any of my points. Just more unfounded assertions. Okies...thanks for playing. For those of you who want a little more of an in depth look at the doctrines of grace and the scripture behind it here is a link. This is by no means the only thing written on the subject. There are books upon books...but it will do for my purposes. salvationbygrace.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/bygracealone.pdf
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Post by dwight92070 on Aug 28, 2022 21:07:46 GMT -8
I'll admit I have not studied Calvinism, but I have learned from one who has. Once you come across a worm or two in an apple, you don't have to eat the whole apple to see that it is rotten. Life is too short to spend great amounts of time in studying false doctrine, unless that's your gift and calling. The devil loves to distract us. Why is it that Jesus Himself, in Whom dwells all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, speaks so clearly and relatively simply, so that the great majority of people can understand Him, but false teachers and false teachings are often very difficult to understand and are not logical? Many false teachings are couched in language that doesn't make much sense, but sounds impressive. Take for example, the Westminster Confession of Faith quoted by josheb. It says that God (in Calvinist doctrine) is not the author of sin and that He does not take away man's free will. No explanation is given, and yet josheb somehow thinks that proves something. The Calvinism that I've learned about doesn't teach either of those things. How about this? I propose that we set up a live debate. No, I am not volunteering. As I said, I have not studied Calvinism extensively. But Steve Gregg, the man that I learned what I know about Calvinism from, is always open to debate anyone on the topic. Often times he will go to where his challenger lives, and if they will provide a venue, he will gladly debate them. So josheb, papalandshark, and any of the rest of you who are Calvinists, why don't you find your "expert" on Calvinism, or maybe one of you is the expert, and meet Steve in a debate? I can easily contact Steve, if you guys want to step forward, and accept this challenge.
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Post by papalandshark on Aug 28, 2022 21:25:42 GMT -8
I'll admit I have not studied Calvinism, but I have learned from one who has. Once you come across a worm or two in an apple, you don't have to eat the whole apple to see that it is rotten. Life is too short to spend great amounts of time in studying false doctrine, unless that's your gift and calling. The devil loves to distract us. Why is it that Jesus Himself, in Whom dwells all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, speaks so clearly and relatively simply, so that the great majority of people can understand Him, but false teachers and false teachings are often very difficult to understand and are not logical? Many false teachings are couched in language that doesn't make much sense, but sounds impressive. Take for example, the Westminster Confession of Faith quoted by josheb. It says that God (in Calvinist doctrine) is not the author of sin and that He does not take away man's free will. No explanation is given, and yet josheb somehow thinks that proves something. The Calvinism that I've learned about doesn't teach either of those things. How about this? I propose that we set up a live debate. No, I am not volunteering. As I said, I have not studied Calvinism extensively. But Steve Gregg, the man that I learned what I know about Calvinism from, is always open to debate anyone on the topic. Often times he will go to where his challenger lives, and if they will provide a venue, he will gladly debate them. So josheb, papalandshark, and any of the rest of you who are Calvinists, why don't you find your "expert" on Calvinism, or maybe one of you is the expert, and meet Steve in a debate? I can easily contact Steve, if you guys want to step forward, and accept this challenge. This might be helpful to you or others. www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/respnsibility_inability.html
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Post by dwight92070 on Aug 29, 2022 10:21:00 GMT -8
I'll admit I have not studied Calvinism, but I have learned from one who has. Once you come across a worm or two in an apple, you don't have to eat the whole apple to see that it is rotten. Life is too short to spend great amounts of time in studying false doctrine, unless that's your gift and calling. The devil loves to distract us. Why is it that Jesus Himself, in Whom dwells all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, speaks so clearly and relatively simply, so that the great majority of people can understand Him, but false teachers and false teachings are often very difficult to understand and are not logical? Many false teachings are couched in language that doesn't make much sense, but sounds impressive. Take for example, the Westminster Confession of Faith quoted by josheb. It says that God (in Calvinist doctrine) is not the author of sin and that He does not take away man's free will. No explanation is given, and yet josheb somehow thinks that proves something. The Calvinism that I've learned about doesn't teach either of those things. How about this? I propose that we set up a live debate. No, I am not volunteering. As I said, I have not studied Calvinism extensively. But Steve Gregg, the man that I learned what I know about Calvinism from, is always open to debate anyone on the topic. Often times he will go to where his challenger lives, and if they will provide a venue, he will gladly debate them. So josheb, papalandshark, and any of the rest of you who are Calvinists, why don't you find your "expert" on Calvinism, or maybe one of you is the expert, and meet Steve in a debate? I can easily contact Steve, if you guys want to step forward, and accept this challenge. This might be helpful to you or others. www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/respnsibility_inability.htmlSo does this mean you don't want to do a live debate? Live debates are extremely helpful, because they can "make" or "break" your argument. I looked at the above website with it's chart and found it not very helpful at all in defense of Calvinism. But a live debate would be helpful to me, you, and others, possibly hundreds and even thousands of others who can view it. Which one of you will step forward to debate Steve Gregg, or do you have someone else who claims expertise in Calvinism? I'm sure many of us here would look forward to such a debate - I know I would.
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Post by papalandshark on Aug 29, 2022 10:35:23 GMT -8
This might be helpful to you or others. www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/respnsibility_inability.htmlSo does this mean you don't want to do a live debate? Live debates are extremely helpful, because they can "make" or "break" your argument. I looked at the above website with it's chart and found it not very helpful at all in defense of Calvinism. But a live debate would be helpful to me, you, and others, possibly hundreds and even thousands of others who can view it. Which one of you will step forward to debate Steve Gregg, or do you have someone else who claims expertise in Calvinism? I'm sure many of us here would look forward to such a debate - I know I would. No I think not. He's welcome to attempt a conversation with James White or some other professional apologist if he's hankering for a good fight. Kudo's to you, btw, for admitting your limitations. This particular battle has been going on since slightly after Calvin and likely won't be done until we are all standing at the throne. If you, personally, have something new to bring to the table then I'd be happy to chat with you about it. But to me, so far, this is all the same old stuff that eventually induced me burning out at Christian Forums. Grace and peace
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 29, 2022 11:52:19 GMT -8
A few thoughts 1. All of us by nature are arminian? I am not arminian.. by nature or otherwise. 2. I would also say this supports all forms of grace oriented beliefs. Not just Calvinism.. I am also not a calvinist.. I reject a few of the 5 points,. Yet I believe it is of God that these things are true also.
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Post by papalandshark on Aug 29, 2022 12:27:56 GMT -8
The topic of C.H. Spurgeon's post is a defense of Calvinism. I would assume that, in his mind, any difference in respects to the doctrines of grace would put you in the "Arminian" sphere in one way or another.
I would also agree with this assumption.
Calvinism is monergistic in it's soteriology. I've yet to run into anything "other" that is not in the synergistic camp either directly or by logical conclusion.
That is really the root here. Calvinism and Arminianism are just labels.
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Post by civic on Aug 29, 2022 12:51:29 GMT -8
Most debates unfortunately are not that good . I saw a decent one with White and Brown recently on YouTube. They were very respectful of each other which was good to see . On forums debates are difficult but having a good discussion without things getting personal is always a good thing . And I will be the first to admit @josheb could debate anyone on any forum and defend his beliefs very well as he can hold his own with the best of them . He is one of the few Calvinists I know that can do this and one of the reasons I invited him here . I’m no longer a Calvinist but he and I can still have some good discussions about our differences and be respectful with one another . There are some other Calvinists here that were invited for the same reasons and others I didn’t invite for other reasons . I wanted to have some balance here and a place we could discuss them in a friendly manner . That’s my hope , prayer and goal as we grow as a community to build one another up in the faith . We can do this even when we disagree .
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 29, 2022 13:31:07 GMT -8
The topic of C.H. Spurgeon's post is a defense of Calvinism. I would assume that, in his mind, any difference in respects to the doctrines of grace would put you in the "Arminian" sphere in one way or another. I would also agree with this assumption. Calvinism is monergistic in it's soteriology. I've yet to run into anything "other" that is not in the synergistic camp either directly or by logical conclusion. That is really the root here. Calvinism and Arminianism are just labels. I agree, they are just labels.. amen. The thought one must be either arminian or calvin is what has tore many a discussions apart. I am not arminian, because I reject salvation can be lost I am not calvin because I reject regeneration before justification.
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Post by dwight92070 on Aug 30, 2022 8:48:23 GMT -8
The story of Cain and Abel certainly shows how faulty Calvinism is. We know Cain was of the evil one, as 1 John 3:12 tells us. Calvinism teaches us that Cain was not part of the elect, and that God had sovereignly predestined him to kill his brother and to end up in hell. But before he killed Abel, God warns him to change his attitude and control the sinful desire that was in his heart. Genesis 4:6-7. God tells Cain, "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and it's desire is for you, but you must master it." But how could God expect Cain to master that sinful desire, if God had predestined Cain to be lost forever? Calvinists don't like it when we speakly plainly and bluntly about their doctrine, pointing out the contradictions. According to Calvinism, it's as if God said to Cain, "I have predestined you to be non-elect, to be lost forever, but now I'm going to let you think that you can actually, on your own, without My help, escape that fate. I'm going to let you think that you can actually do well, that you can master sin. I'm going to let you think that you actually have freedom of choice - that you can choose to say 'No' to sin and 'No' to the desire to kill your brother." But the truth is that Calvinists think that NONE of us have free choice, Cain included, and that God was going to send him to hell, whether he repented or not. Calvinists will twist logic and say that they do not believe that we do not have free will. They will further twist the truth and say that just because God did not choose Cain to be part of His elect, that this does not mean that He chose Cain to go to hell and to be lost forever. This is the nonsense of Calvinism. In fact, it is my understanding that, when Calvin himself was presented with many such contradictions, he would not deny the contradictions like Calvinist do today. Rather his standard answer was "It's a mystery." Just because God chose some for heaven, does not mean that He chose all the others for hell - so says the modern Calvinists. John Calvin, on the other hand, was more honest. He admitted that for God to choose some for heaven, He was actually, at the same time, choosing all the others for hell. Modern Calvinists don't even fully follow their "founder" - Calvin. (Although Calvin's doctrine came from Augustine) Apparently, it's too embarrassing for Calvinists to say "It's a mystery." to all their contradictions, so they have come up with long, convoluted, explanations for them. Or they say that they don't follow everything that Calvin said. For example, they have long, convoluted explanations as to how we still have free will, even though God sovereignly does EVERYTHING, and we do nothing.
The Biblical truth is that God, in His sovereignty, has allowed us to have free choices. Just as a loving father doesn't micromanage his children's live, except when they're babies and very young, so our loving Heavenly Father, in His Sovereignty, chooses not to micromanage our lives. This, in no way, takes away His Sovereignty, even though the Calvinists say that it does. With their definition of Sovereignty, God is a tyrannical dictator - He alone does everything. I can hear them object: "He's a loving dictator". Really? How did He display His love by directing Hitler and his men to rape, torture, and kill 6,000,000 Jews? and directing Stalin to kill 60,000,000? Hear we go again with convoluted explanations, which are blaspheming God's character. How did he display His love, when He, not just allowed, but actually directed a man, to secretly imprison his 19 year old daughter in his basement for about 26 (?) years. For most of that time, he would rape her at least five times a day. She had 7 children by him during that time, and he kept them all imprisoned with small amounts of food. He made the younger children watch as he molested the 19 year old girl and repeated raped her. Actually, according to Calvinism, GOD made those younger children watch their father molest and rape their older sister many times each day for over 20 years!!! To say that God did that is blasphemy!!! Remember God said, when He condemned people burning their children alive to demonic idols, that it NEVER EVEN ENTERED INTO HIS MIND!!! Yet Calvinists would have us believe that God Himself directed those EVIL parents to burn their children alive, and to offer their children's charred remains to Molech.
This is why a deep, intensive, study of Calvinism is not even necessary, except maybe to expose the extreme wickedness behind it. You will know them by their fruits, Jesus said. To accept Calvinism is to accuse God of the most heinous acts in history. To call Calvinism the "gospel of grace" is itself blasphemy, in my opinion. Calvinism DOES make GOD the author of sin, but they will convolute the truth to deny that as well.
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Post by New Testament Guy on Aug 30, 2022 13:10:25 GMT -8
The story of Cain and Abel certainly shows how faulty Calvinism is. We know Cain was of the evil one, as 1 John 3:12 tells us. Calvinism teaches us that Cain was not part of the elect, and that God had sovereignly predestined him to kill his brother and to end up in hell. But before he killed Abel, God warns him to change his attitude and control the sinful desire that was in his heart. Genesis 4:6-7. God tells Cain, "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and it's desire is for you, but you must master it." But how could God expect Cain to master that sinful desire, if God had predestined Cain to be lost forever? Calvinists don't like it when we speakly plainly and bluntly about their doctrine, pointing out the contradictions. According to Calvinism, it's as if God said to Cain, "I have predestined you to be non-elect, to be lost forever, but now I'm going to let you think that you can actually, on your own, without My help, escape that fate. I'm going to let you think that you can actually do well, that you can master sin. I'm going to let you think that you actually have freedom of choice - that you can choose to say 'No' to sin and 'No' to the desire to kill your brother." But the truth is that Calvinists think that NONE of us have free choice, Cain included, and that God was going to send him to hell, whether he repented or not. Calvinists will twist logic and say that they do not believe that we do not have free will. They will further twist the truth and say that just because God did not choose Cain to be part of His elect, that this does not mean that He chose Cain to go to hell and to be lost forever. This is the nonsense of Calvinism. In fact, it is my understanding that, when Calvin himself was presented with many such contradictions, he would not deny the contradictions like Calvinist do today. Rather his standard answer was "It's a mystery." Just because God chose some for heaven, does not mean that He chose all the others for hell - so says the modern Calvinists. John Calvin, on the other hand, was more honest. He admitted that for God to choose some for heaven, He was actually, at the same time, choosing all the others for hell. Modern Calvinists don't even fully follow their "founder" - Calvin. (Although Calvin's doctrine came from Augustine) Apparently, it's too embarrassing for Calvinists to say "It's a mystery." to all their contradictions, so they have come up with long, convoluted, explanations for them. Or they say that they don't follow everything that Calvin said. For example, they have long, convoluted explanations as to how we still have free will, even though God sovereignly does EVERYTHING, and we do nothing. The Biblical truth is that God, in His sovereignty, has allowed us to have free choices. Just as a loving father doesn't micromanage his children's live, except when they're babies and very young, so our loving Heavenly Father, in His Sovereignty, chooses not to micromanage our lives. This, in no way, takes away His Sovereignty, even though the Calvinists say that it does. With their definition of Sovereignty, God is a tyrannical dictator - He alone does everything. I can hear them object: "He's a loving dictator". Really? How did He display His love by directing Hitler and his men to rape, torture, and kill 6,000,000 Jews? and directing Stalin to kill 60,000,000? Hear we go again with convoluted explanations, which are blaspheming God's character. How did he display His love, when He, not just allowed, but actually directed a man, to secretly imprison his 19 year old daughter in his basement for about 26 (?) years. For most of that time, he would rape her at least five times a day. She had 7 children by him during that time, and he kept them all imprisoned with small amounts of food. He made the younger children watch as he molested the 19 year old girl and repeated raped her. Actually, according to Calvinism, GOD made those younger children watch their father molest and rape their older sister many times each day for over 20 years!!! To say that God did that is blasphemy!!! Remember God said, when He condemned people burning their children alive to demonic idols, that it NEVER EVEN ENTERED INTO HIS MIND!!! Yet Calvinists would have us believe that God Himself directed those EVIL parents to burn their children alive, and to offer their children's charred remains to Molech. This is why a deep, intensive, study of Calvinism is not even necessary, except maybe to expose the extreme wickedness behind it. You will know them by their fruits, Jesus said. To accept Calvinism is to accuse God of the most heinous acts in history. To call Calvinism the "gospel of grace" is itself blasphemy, in my opinion. Calvinism DOES make GOD the author of sin, but they will convolute the truth to deny that as well. Yes, I know there are Christians who accept this doctrine, but they are deceived.
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Post by Theophilus on Aug 30, 2022 13:16:58 GMT -8
New Testament Guy Do you need any help on posting?
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Post by rockson on Aug 30, 2022 15:08:38 GMT -8
The story of Cain and Abel certainly shows how faulty Calvinism is. We know Cain was of the evil one, as 1 John 3:12 tells us. Calvinism teaches us that Cain was not part of the elect, and that God had sovereignly predestined him to kill his brother and to end up in hell. But before he killed Abel, God warns him to change his attitude and control the sinful desire that was in his heart. Genesis 4:6-7. God tells Cain, "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and it's desire is for you, but you must master it." But how could God expect Cain to master that sinful desire, if God had predestined Cain to be lost forever? Calvinists don't like it when we speakly plainly and bluntly about their doctrine, pointing out the contradictions. According to Calvinism, it's as if God said to Cain, "I have predestined you to be non-elect, to be lost forever, but now I'm going to let you think that you can actually, on your own, without My help, escape that fate. I'm going to let you think that you can actually do well, that you can master sin. I'm going to let you think that you actually have freedom of choice - that you can choose to say 'No' to sin and 'No' to the desire to kill your brother." But the truth is that Calvinists think that NONE of us have free choice, Cain included, and that God was going to send him to hell, whether he repented or not. Calvinists will twist logic and say that they do not believe that we do not have free will. They will further twist the truth and say that just because God did not choose Cain to be part of His elect, that this does not mean that He chose Cain to go to hell and to be lost forever. This is the nonsense of Calvinism. Correct. A few days ago I heard Steve Gregg bring up this point so maybe you hear the same ones I listen to but it is one of the finest points I've heard challenging Calvinism. How any one can possibly believe the choice wasn't Cain's and Cain's alone how he would end up staggers the imagination.. God's choice was it's up to you and if it REALLY wasn't up to Cain then God did something we're told he can NEVER do and that is LIE. We're left to conclude then...somebody is lying. It's either God or sorry but it's Calvinists for what do we read...let God be true and every man a (I'll leave you to fill in the blank) ..........Rom 3:4 I choose to believe God was not being disingenuous which means he was lying for there is no other way to describe it. Therefore those from among men who have not been telling the truth about God's character may have been doing it ignorantly, granted, but when you're confronted with truths like these I hardly think one will be able to claim that in the time of judgement they just didn't REALLY know. Now it'd become willfully ignorant with no excuse for believing the other.
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