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Post by civic on Aug 7, 2022 5:48:48 GMT -8
There is a system of teaching abroad today which is infecting our Fundamental churches, Bible institutes, Christian colleges, and seminaries. It is known as Five-Point Calvinism and originated with John Calvin's interpretation of the Word of God. The fearsome thing about it is its spread into Fundamental churches and schools with little opposition. It appears that the proponents of Neo-evangelicalism, with their criticism of Fundamentalists for their supposed "lack of scholarship toward the Word of God," have had a great influence. As this system of false doctrines spreads into the last strongholds of Biblical Christianity there is a silence when there should be a resounding reply from the Word of God by pastors and teachers. The intellectualism of this system of teaching seems to have cast a spell over our leaders and the will to resist is stifled for fear of saying something non-intellectual. In that which follows, I urge you to compare the Five-Points of Calvinism with the Word of God and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth.
Concerning the Five-Points of Calvinism, Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, "prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned." Since Mr. Boettner is considered an authority on the subject, I would encourage you to follow his advice and abandon the system when you find one of the Five-Points to be wrong.
The Five-Points of Calvinism are as follows:
1. Total Inability
2. Unconditional Election
3. Limited Atonement
4. Irresistible Grace
5. Perseverance of the Saints
It is not the purpose of this paper to present an exhaustive study of these points and to examine the Scriptures used by Calvinists to prove their system of teaching. Rather, this study is set forth for the Christian believer who wants to know, very simply stated, what these Five Points are and whether they are in agreement with all the Scriptures.
Total Inability
The teaching of Five-Point Calvinism is that man is totally unable to do anything to obtain salvation. Calvinists state very emphatically that man cannot repent or believe the gospel. Their teaching is that man cannot believe until he is born again. This new birth is brought about by God who chooses certain individuals and regenerates them. Those whom He regenerates are then capable of believing by virtue of their new birth. Man does not have a free will by which he is able to come to Christ for salvation.
Concerning the statement that man cannot repent we find the Word of God stating the exact opposite. In Acts 17:30 we find that God commands all men everywhere to repent, and that having so commanded, He expects they can and will. In 2 Peter 3:9 we find that God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." If they should come, then they can come. God does not mock men by asking them to do what they cannot do. In Acts 11:18 we are told that God has granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. Notice that the repentance comes first and it results in life.
Concerning the statement that man cannot believe the gospel, and that man cannot believe until his is born again, let the following Scriptures be studied— John 1:12; 3:15,16,36; 5:24; 6:40; 7:39; 12:36 and 20:31. These Scriptures all show that spiritual life follows upon the sinner's believing in Jesus Christ. The Apostle John gave as his reason for writing his gospel, "that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name." It is very clear that believing comes first and the new birth follows. The verses I have cited from the Gospel of John by no means exhausts the Scriptures which prove life through believing. If you will take Strong's Concordance and study the words believe, believed, and believeth, you will find much more. A notable example is Acts 16:31 where Paul said, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." The Calvinist would twist it to read, "when thou art saved by the Lord Jesus Christ, thou shalt believe." What utter disregard for the plain teaching of the Word of God!
Concerning the statement that man does not have a free will by which he is able to come to Christ, please note what Jesus said in John 7:17: "If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." Here He said that a man may will to do God's will. Again in John 5:40 Jesus rebuked the Jews when He said, "ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." It was not that they could not come, but that they would not come. In Rev. 22:17, the Word of God declares "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Here God makes a real offer of the water of life to "WHOSOEVER WILL."
Beloved, God has been pleased "by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe" (1 Cor. 1:21). Salvation is by believing, and if we tell the lost man that he cannot believe, we shut the gates of Heaven against him and find ourselves in the hideous company of him who "hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4:4).
Unconditional Election
The teaching of Five-Point Calvinism is that God has determined and decreed that some are to be saved without any conditions to be met on their part.
This is called Unconditional Election and is the choosing of some to salvation in Christ, while at the same time, leaving the rest in their lost condition by not choosing them. This election is not based on God's foreknowing that certain would believe, but is based on His sovereign will to elect certain ones. Those who are not chosen to be part of the Elect of God can in no way enter into that company. In line with this teaching, the statement is made that God does not love all men, but only those whom he has chosen to be saved.
The Scriptures are very plain that God has His Elect ones who by faith in Jesus Christ are predestinated "to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom. 8:29). They are adopted by God and Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4,5). This election is plainly declared to be based on the foreknowledge of God (1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29). Since God knows the end from the beginning, He foreknows those who will believe in Christ. He has purposed that they will be to the praise of His glory throughout the ages and through them He will "show the exceeding riches of His grace" (Eph. 2:7).
The Scriptures are also very plain in stating that "whosoever will" may come to Christ. Please read the following Scriptures— John 3:15,16; 4:14; 12:46; Acts 2:21, 10:43; Rom. 10:13; Rev. 22:17. The word whosoever means "all, any, every, the whole." Since we believe in the verbal, plenary inspiration of the Word of God we are forced to believe that when God moves the Scripture writers to say "whosoever," then that is exactly what He means. That there is a condition to be met in order for one to be saved is proved by our Lord's words in John 8:24, "for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." Other Scriptures have already been quoted under Total Inability to bear out the conditional requirement of believing in order to have salvation.
That God loves all men in this world and sent His Son to die for them is abundantly clear from John 3:16. The Five-Point Calvinist changes the meaning of the word "world" here and adds to the Word of God by placing immediately behind it two words, "the elect." The verse then appears this way, "For God so loved the world (the elect) that He gave His only begotten Son, etc." I have seen this verse written in this way in gospel tracts. The word world is used 77 times in the Gospel of John. I would encourage you to take Strong's Concordance and look up each occurrence, then insert the words "the elect" behind each usage of it. You do not have to go far before you see how ridiculous it is.
You see, beloved, if God does not love all men, then we should not love them either. Since our Christian character comes from the indwelling of our Lord, we cannot show forth an attribute that is superior to His. Yet, strangely enough, the Word of God says we are to love our enemies, our wives, our husbands, our children. If we must love lost sinners, and our Lord is holier than we are, we must believe that He loves them too. I'll believe John 3:16 as it stands, unaltered by the followers of John Calvin.
Limited Atonement
The Five-Point Calvinist states that Christ died on the cross for the sins of the Elect. To say that He died for the sins of the Non-Elect is not reasonable. Since, according to their system, God has chosen some to be saved and chosen the rest to be lost, He cannot require the death of Christ for those He does not plan to save anyhow. Therefore, the atonement of Christ is limited to the Elect only.
If you have accepted Total Inability and Unconditional Election it is necessary to limit the scope of Christ's death on Calvary. The only problem is that the Scriptures directly state that the death of Christ was for every man and is effective for the sinner the moment he believes. In 1 John 2:2 it is said that His death was a propitiation (satisfaction) not only for our sins, but for the sins of "the whole world." In Hebrews 2:9, it says that Christ tasted death for "every man." 1 Tim. 2:6 says that He gave Himself a ransom for "all." John the Baptist declared in John 1:29 that Jesus was the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the "world." In Isaiah 53:6, the Word of God states that "all" have gone astray (I would assume that refers to all men in the world) and that the Lord laid on Jesus the iniquity of us "all." Since the gospel is for "whosoever will" and it consists of the good news that Christ died for sinners, I must believe that the atonement of Christ is not limited.
Not only is the atonement of Christ unlimited and offered to all men, but the Holy Spirit is presently working to convict the world (all men) of one sin. That sin is that Christ paid the penalty for their sins, but they do not believe on Him (John 16:8,9). God is "not willing that any should perish" (2 Peter 3:9) and it is said that He will "have all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). In Scripture we find the Father giving the Son to the world, the Son tasting death for every man, and the Holy Spirit convicting the world. Since God's work must be our work, we should part company with Five-Point Calvinism right here. The Bible knows nothing of a limited atonement that comes from the vain intellectual reasoning of men.
Irresistible Grace
Calvinists teach that all those whom God has chosen to be saved will be unable to resist the call of God. Since He has predetermined them to be saved, He effectually calls and regenerates them without any condition to be met on their part.
The Word of God teaches that "the grace of God that bringeth salvation has appeared to all men" (Titus 2:11). Since God has provided salvation for all men and yet all do not come, that is proof enough that men do resist the grace of God. The Bible gives clear instances of men resisting the grace of God. Jesus stood over Jerusalem and said that He wanted to gather them unto Himself, but they "would not" (Matt. 23:37). When Stephen preached to the Jews, he said that regarding their attitude toward God's Word, they were stiff-necked and that they were resisting the Holy Spirit Who was calling them (Acts 7:51). The writer of Hebrews, when describing those "who draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10:39), said that though they were sanctified by the blood of Christ, yet they had "done despite unto the Spirit of grace (Heb. 10:29). Here it is plain that the blood of Christ was available to them for salvation, but was refused. That the Spirit of God strives with sinners to bring them to repentance and faith is stated in Gen. 6:3. This verse also states that God will one day give man up when His grace is continually resisted.
Perseverance of the Saints
The last point in the Calvinist system of teaching is that those whom God has chosen to be saved will persevere to the end and will not finally and fully depart from the faith. The one who is truly born again is eternally secure in Christ and is never in danger of losing his salvation.
Most Fundamentalists would find little to disagree with in this statement, except to qualify the way God chooses men to be saved by stating that His election is according to His foreknowledge. The eternal security of the believer is a fundamental doctrine of Scripture. However, the false teaching set forth under the first four points of Calvinism bear their inevitable fruit here. There is a subtle exclusion here which is not seen in the stated position, but which eventually shows up in practice. In churches where these doctrines are taught, there are the following effects on those who come into the assembly:—
1. The man who is under the conviction of the Spirit and on the threshold of believing in Christ is soon hearing that he cannot of himself believe and unless God has chosen him to salvation there is nothing he can do.
2. The one who has been born again, but is still a babe in Christ, is often expected to exhibit a spiritual life more advanced than his growth to date. Because the fruit is slow in coming, he begins to doubt whether he is truly born again. Thus, one who is a child of God begins to doubt that he is a true believer and sits at home in absolute frustration, convinced that God has not chosen him.
3. Those who are saved and living a spiritual life begin to develop an intellectual superiority over those who cannot see the glorious truths revealed by John Calvin. Since they are the Elect of God and the unsaved are the Non-Elect whom God does not love, they begin to display a self-righteous attitude toward those lost in sin. The attitude of the Jews toward the Gentiles, whom they referred to as "dogs," begins to come into the life of the Calvinist. It is the attitude displayed by John Calvin when he desired the death penalty to be pronounced upon Servetus. John Calvin handled the theological part of the trial of Servetus, who was subsequently burned at the stake for blasphemy.
The usage of the phrase "Perseverance of the Saints" gives the impression that the saints are doing something to keep themselves secure in their salvation. A more Scriptural phrase would seem to be "The Preservation of the Saints" (1 Thess. 5:23; Jude 1).
Beloved, inquire of your Bible teacher regarding Calvinism. Do not be satisfied with a "purposely evasive" answer. The man who holds these teachings usually will not be a soul-winner or be mission minded. If your church has no outreach for the lost, it may well be that Five-Point Calvinism has already done it's deadly work.Paul L. Freeman
hope this helps !!!
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Post by John Mullally on Aug 7, 2022 6:25:31 GMT -8
The writings of John Calvin in his "Institutes of the Christian religion" were so hard to summarize that the TULIP framework was constructed in order to explain and defend his doctrine. As shown, each of the first four points of TULIP can be easily refuted. I am a 0 point Calvinist, as I don't believe Perseverance of the saints either because of Hebrews 6:4-8 and 2 Peter 2:20-21.
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Post by civic on Aug 7, 2022 6:33:44 GMT -8
The writings of John Calvin in his "Institutes of the Christian religion" were so hard to summarize that the TULIP framework was constructed in order to explain and defend his doctrine. As shown, each of the first four points of TULIP can be easily refuted. I am a 0 point Calvinist, as I don't believe Perseverance of the saints either because of Hebrews 6:4-8 and 2 Peter 2:20-21. Its good to see you here brother and Welcome from Jesus is YHWH, Christophany and Chalcedon on the other forums  |
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Post by civic on Aug 7, 2022 8:24:31 GMT -8
@dizerner I have another one for you lol. Edit by admin Jesus is Lord |
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Post by rockson on Aug 7, 2022 9:24:01 GMT -8
@dizerner I have another one for you lol. Edit by admin I'm not one to put it this way to many Calvinists lest I offend them from receiving truth but I do agree with your assessment. It is a bazar type looking theology in light of what we even KNOW in the Spirit about the character of God. Seeing many of these dear hearts talk about what they call the doctrines of Grace not appreciating the very core of what they're saying strips away any notion of God as having a gracious, fair, loving character at all, is stunning to the mind. When I search my spirit the only thing that comes up in me is that I'd call them the doctrines of unwarranted favoritism which Rom 2:11 states God is not like. I have no problem calling many Calvinists sincere and good people but even sincere people can be way wrong. Calvinistic thinking I contend is really a monster of a thing but it's wearing a nice looking mask which I'll say they've taped on it the words doctrines of grace. Such a lovely sounding title right? Call me ignorant but I have to believe many Calvinists deep down KNOW they just KNOW none of it can really be true but their natural minds are held in fear from acknowledging what everything in them telling them is true. Studying the gracious, kind, loving character of God continually can help to bring them out of it where they'll finally say, "OK enough is enough! It just can't be true!" At least I think that happens to many. |
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 7, 2022 11:09:48 GMT -8
@dizerner I have another one for you lol. Edit by admin but I do agree with your assessment. It is a bazar type looking theology in light of what we even KNOW in the Spirit about the character of God. Seeing many of these dear hearts talk about what they call the doctrines of Grace not appreciating the very core of what they're saying strips away any notion of God as having a gracious, fair, loving character at all, is stunning to the mind. When I search my spirit the only thing that comes up in me is that I'd call them the doctrines of unwarranted favoritism which Rom 2:11 states God is not like. I have no problem calling many Calvinists sincere and good people but even sincere people can be way wrong. Calvinistic thinking I contend is really a monster of a thing but it's wearing a nice looking mask which I'll say they've taped on it the words doctrines of grace. Such a lovely sounding title right? Call me ignorant but I have to believe many Calvinists deep down KNOW they just KNOW none of it can really be true but their natural minds are held in fear from acknowledging what everything in them telling them is true. Studying the gracious, kind, loving character of God continually can help to bring them out of it where they'll finally say, "OK enough is enough! It just can't be true!" At least I think that happens to many. Thanks for posting those true words. That whole post is right on. From the first sentence to the to the last. |
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Post by makesends on Aug 15, 2022 5:03:32 GMT -8
There is a system of teaching abroad today which is infecting our Fundamental churches, Bible institutes, Christian colleges, and seminaries. It is known as Five-Point Calvinism and originated with John Calvin's interpretation of the Word of God. The fearsome thing about it is its spread into Fundamental churches and schools with little opposition. It appears that the proponents of Neo-evangelicalism, with their criticism of Fundamentalists for their supposed "lack of scholarship toward the Word of God," have had a great influence. As this system of false doctrines spreads into the last strongholds of Biblical Christianity there is a silence when there should be a resounding reply from the Word of God by pastors and teachers. The intellectualism of this system of teaching seems to have cast a spell over our leaders and the will to resist is stifled for fear of saying something non-intellectual. In that which follows, I urge you to compare the Five-Points of Calvinism with the Word of God and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth. Concerning the Five-Points of Calvinism, Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, "prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned." Since Mr. Boettner is considered an authority on the subject, I would encourage you to follow his advice and abandon the system when you find one of the Five-Points to be wrong. The Five-Points of Calvinism are as follows: 1. Total Inability 2. Unconditional Election 3. Limited Atonement 4. Irresistible Grace 5. Perseverance of the Saints It is not the purpose of this paper to present an exhaustive study of these points and to examine the Scriptures used by Calvinists to prove their system of teaching. Rather, this study is set forth for the Christian believer who wants to know, very simply stated, what these Five Points are and whether they are in agreement with all the Scriptures. Total Inability
The teaching of Five-Point Calvinism is that man is totally unable to do anything to obtain salvation. Calvinists state very emphatically that man cannot repent or believe the gospel. Their teaching is that man cannot believe until he is born again. This new birth is brought about by God who chooses certain individuals and regenerates them. Those whom He regenerates are then capable of believing by virtue of their new birth. Man does not have a free will by which he is able to come to Christ for salvation. Concerning the statement that man cannot repent we find the Word of God stating the exact opposite. In Acts 17:30 we find that God commands all men everywhere to repent, and that having so commanded, He expects they can and will. In 2 Peter 3:9 we find that God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." If they should come, then they can come. God does not mock men by asking them to do what they cannot do. In Acts 11:18 we are told that God has granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. Notice that the repentance comes first and it results in life. Concerning the statement that man cannot believe the gospel, and that man cannot believe until his is born again, let the following Scriptures be studied— John 1:12; 3:15,16,36; 5:24; 6:40; 7:39; 12:36 and 20:31. These Scriptures all show that spiritual life follows upon the sinner's believing in Jesus Christ. The Apostle John gave as his reason for writing his gospel, "that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name." It is very clear that believing comes first and the new birth follows. The verses I have cited from the Gospel of John by no means exhausts the Scriptures which prove life through believing. If you will take Strong's Concordance and study the words believe, believed, and believeth, you will find much more. A notable example is Acts 16:31 where Paul said, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." The Calvinist would twist it to read, "when thou art saved by the Lord Jesus Christ, thou shalt believe." What utter disregard for the plain teaching of the Word of God! Concerning the statement that man does not have a free will by which he is able to come to Christ, please note what Jesus said in John 7:17: "If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." Here He said that a man may will to do God's will. Again in John 5:40 Jesus rebuked the Jews when He said, "ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." It was not that they could not come, but that they would not come. In Rev. 22:17, the Word of God declares "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Here God makes a real offer of the water of life to "WHOSOEVER WILL." Beloved, God has been pleased "by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe" (1 Cor. 1:21). Salvation is by believing, and if we tell the lost man that he cannot believe, we shut the gates of Heaven against him and find ourselves in the hideous company of him who "hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4:4). Unconditional Election The teaching of Five-Point Calvinism is that God has determined and decreed that some are to be saved without any conditions to be met on their part. This is called Unconditional Election and is the choosing of some to salvation in Christ, while at the same time, leaving the rest in their lost condition by not choosing them. This election is not based on God's foreknowing that certain would believe, but is based on His sovereign will to elect certain ones. Those who are not chosen to be part of the Elect of God can in no way enter into that company. In line with this teaching, the statement is made that God does not love all men, but only those whom he has chosen to be saved. The Scriptures are very plain that God has His Elect ones who by faith in Jesus Christ are predestinated "to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom. 8:29). They are adopted by God and Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4,5). This election is plainly declared to be based on the foreknowledge of God (1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29). Since God knows the end from the beginning, He foreknows those who will believe in Christ. He has purposed that they will be to the praise of His glory throughout the ages and through them He will "show the exceeding riches of His grace" (Eph. 2:7). The Scriptures are also very plain in stating that "whosoever will" may come to Christ. Please read the following Scriptures— John 3:15,16; 4:14; 12:46; Acts 2:21, 10:43; Rom. 10:13; Rev. 22:17. The word whosoever means "all, any, every, the whole." Since we believe in the verbal, plenary inspiration of the Word of God we are forced to believe that when God moves the Scripture writers to say "whosoever," then that is exactly what He means. That there is a condition to be met in order for one to be saved is proved by our Lord's words in John 8:24, "for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." Other Scriptures have already been quoted under Total Inability to bear out the conditional requirement of believing in order to have salvation. That God loves all men in this world and sent His Son to die for them is abundantly clear from John 3:16. The Five-Point Calvinist changes the meaning of the word "world" here and adds to the Word of God by placing immediately behind it two words, "the elect." The verse then appears this way, "For God so loved the world (the elect) that He gave His only begotten Son, etc." I have seen this verse written in this way in gospel tracts. The word world is used 77 times in the Gospel of John. I would encourage you to take Strong's Concordance and look up each occurrence, then insert the words "the elect" behind each usage of it. You do not have to go far before you see how ridiculous it is. You see, beloved, if God does not love all men, then we should not love them either. Since our Christian character comes from the indwelling of our Lord, we cannot show forth an attribute that is superior to His. Yet, strangely enough, the Word of God says we are to love our enemies, our wives, our husbands, our children. If we must love lost sinners, and our Lord is holier than we are, we must believe that He loves them too. I'll believe John 3:16 as it stands, unaltered by the followers of John Calvin. Limited Atonement
The Five-Point Calvinist states that Christ died on the cross for the sins of the Elect. To say that He died for the sins of the Non-Elect is not reasonable. Since, according to their system, God has chosen some to be saved and chosen the rest to be lost, He cannot require the death of Christ for those He does not plan to save anyhow. Therefore, the atonement of Christ is limited to the Elect only. If you have accepted Total Inability and Unconditional Election it is necessary to limit the scope of Christ's death on Calvary. The only problem is that the Scriptures directly state that the death of Christ was for every man and is effective for the sinner the moment he believes. In 1 John 2:2 it is said that His death was a propitiation (satisfaction) not only for our sins, but for the sins of "the whole world." In Hebrews 2:9, it says that Christ tasted death for "every man." 1 Tim. 2:6 says that He gave Himself a ransom for "all." John the Baptist declared in John 1:29 that Jesus was the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the "world." In Isaiah 53:6, the Word of God states that "all" have gone astray (I would assume that refers to all men in the world) and that the Lord laid on Jesus the iniquity of us "all." Since the gospel is for "whosoever will" and it consists of the good news that Christ died for sinners, I must believe that the atonement of Christ is not limited. Not only is the atonement of Christ unlimited and offered to all men, but the Holy Spirit is presently working to convict the world (all men) of one sin. That sin is that Christ paid the penalty for their sins, but they do not believe on Him (John 16:8,9). God is "not willing that any should perish" (2 Peter 3:9) and it is said that He will "have all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). In Scripture we find the Father giving the Son to the world, the Son tasting death for every man, and the Holy Spirit convicting the world. Since God's work must be our work, we should part company with Five-Point Calvinism right here. The Bible knows nothing of a limited atonement that comes from the vain intellectual reasoning of men. Irresistible Grace
Calvinists teach that all those whom God has chosen to be saved will be unable to resist the call of God. Since He has predetermined them to be saved, He effectually calls and regenerates them without any condition to be met on their part. The Word of God teaches that "the grace of God that bringeth salvation has appeared to all men" (Titus 2:11). Since God has provided salvation for all men and yet all do not come, that is proof enough that men do resist the grace of God. The Bible gives clear instances of men resisting the grace of God. Jesus stood over Jerusalem and said that He wanted to gather them unto Himself, but they "would not" (Matt. 23:37). When Stephen preached to the Jews, he said that regarding their attitude toward God's Word, they were stiff-necked and that they were resisting the Holy Spirit Who was calling them (Acts 7:51). The writer of Hebrews, when describing those "who draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10:39), said that though they were sanctified by the blood of Christ, yet they had "done despite unto the Spirit of grace (Heb. 10:29). Here it is plain that the blood of Christ was available to them for salvation, but was refused. That the Spirit of God strives with sinners to bring them to repentance and faith is stated in Gen. 6:3. This verse also states that God will one day give man up when His grace is continually resisted. Perseverance of the Saints The last point in the Calvinist system of teaching is that those whom God has chosen to be saved will persevere to the end and will not finally and fully depart from the faith. The one who is truly born again is eternally secure in Christ and is never in danger of losing his salvation. Most Fundamentalists would find little to disagree with in this statement, except to qualify the way God chooses men to be saved by stating that His election is according to His foreknowledge. The eternal security of the believer is a fundamental doctrine of Scripture. However, the false teaching set forth under the first four points of Calvinism bear their inevitable fruit here. There is a subtle exclusion here which is not seen in the stated position, but which eventually shows up in practice. In churches where these doctrines are taught, there are the following effects on those who come into the assembly:— 1. The man who is under the conviction of the Spirit and on the threshold of believing in Christ is soon hearing that he cannot of himself believe and unless God has chosen him to salvation there is nothing he can do. 2. The one who has been born again, but is still a babe in Christ, is often expected to exhibit a spiritual life more advanced than his growth to date. Because the fruit is slow in coming, he begins to doubt whether he is truly born again. Thus, one who is a child of God begins to doubt that he is a true believer and sits at home in absolute frustration, convinced that God has not chosen him. 3. Those who are saved and living a spiritual life begin to develop an intellectual superiority over those who cannot see the glorious truths revealed by John Calvin. Since they are the Elect of God and the unsaved are the Non-Elect whom God does not love, they begin to display a self-righteous attitude toward those lost in sin. The attitude of the Jews toward the Gentiles, whom they referred to as "dogs," begins to come into the life of the Calvinist. It is the attitude displayed by John Calvin when he desired the death penalty to be pronounced upon Servetus. John Calvin handled the theological part of the trial of Servetus, who was subsequently burned at the stake for blasphemy. The usage of the phrase "Perseverance of the Saints" gives the impression that the saints are doing something to keep themselves secure in their salvation. A more Scriptural phrase would seem to be "The Preservation of the Saints" (1 Thess. 5:23; Jude 1). Beloved, inquire of your Bible teacher regarding Calvinism. Do not be satisfied with a "purposely evasive" answer. The man who holds these teachings usually will not be a soul-winner or be mission minded. If your church has no outreach for the lost, it may well be that Five-Point Calvinism has already done it's deadly work.Paul L. Freeman hope this helps !!! I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out which is Paul Freeman's 'paper' and which are his comments and which are yours. If all the comments are his comments, I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out where his presentation of each of the 5 points ends and where his refutation begins. |
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Post by civic on Aug 15, 2022 5:05:23 GMT -8
There is a system of teaching abroad today which is infecting our Fundamental churches, Bible institutes, Christian colleges, and seminaries. It is known as Five-Point Calvinism and originated with John Calvin's interpretation of the Word of God. The fearsome thing about it is its spread into Fundamental churches and schools with little opposition. It appears that the proponents of Neo-evangelicalism, with their criticism of Fundamentalists for their supposed "lack of scholarship toward the Word of God," have had a great influence. As this system of false doctrines spreads into the last strongholds of Biblical Christianity there is a silence when there should be a resounding reply from the Word of God by pastors and teachers. The intellectualism of this system of teaching seems to have cast a spell over our leaders and the will to resist is stifled for fear of saying something non-intellectual. In that which follows, I urge you to compare the Five-Points of Calvinism with the Word of God and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth. Concerning the Five-Points of Calvinism, Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, "prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned." Since Mr. Boettner is considered an authority on the subject, I would encourage you to follow his advice and abandon the system when you find one of the Five-Points to be wrong. The Five-Points of Calvinism are as follows: 1. Total Inability 2. Unconditional Election 3. Limited Atonement 4. Irresistible Grace 5. Perseverance of the Saints It is not the purpose of this paper to present an exhaustive study of these points and to examine the Scriptures used by Calvinists to prove their system of teaching. Rather, this study is set forth for the Christian believer who wants to know, very simply stated, what these Five Points are and whether they are in agreement with all the Scriptures. Total Inability
The teaching of Five-Point Calvinism is that man is totally unable to do anything to obtain salvation. Calvinists state very emphatically that man cannot repent or believe the gospel. Their teaching is that man cannot believe until he is born again. This new birth is brought about by God who chooses certain individuals and regenerates them. Those whom He regenerates are then capable of believing by virtue of their new birth. Man does not have a free will by which he is able to come to Christ for salvation. Concerning the statement that man cannot repent we find the Word of God stating the exact opposite. In Acts 17:30 we find that God commands all men everywhere to repent, and that having so commanded, He expects they can and will. In 2 Peter 3:9 we find that God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." If they should come, then they can come. God does not mock men by asking them to do what they cannot do. In Acts 11:18 we are told that God has granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. Notice that the repentance comes first and it results in life. Concerning the statement that man cannot believe the gospel, and that man cannot believe until his is born again, let the following Scriptures be studied— John 1:12; 3:15,16,36; 5:24; 6:40; 7:39; 12:36 and 20:31. These Scriptures all show that spiritual life follows upon the sinner's believing in Jesus Christ. The Apostle John gave as his reason for writing his gospel, "that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name." It is very clear that believing comes first and the new birth follows. The verses I have cited from the Gospel of John by no means exhausts the Scriptures which prove life through believing. If you will take Strong's Concordance and study the words believe, believed, and believeth, you will find much more. A notable example is Acts 16:31 where Paul said, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." The Calvinist would twist it to read, "when thou art saved by the Lord Jesus Christ, thou shalt believe." What utter disregard for the plain teaching of the Word of God! Concerning the statement that man does not have a free will by which he is able to come to Christ, please note what Jesus said in John 7:17: "If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." Here He said that a man may will to do God's will. Again in John 5:40 Jesus rebuked the Jews when He said, "ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." It was not that they could not come, but that they would not come. In Rev. 22:17, the Word of God declares "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Here God makes a real offer of the water of life to "WHOSOEVER WILL." Beloved, God has been pleased "by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe" (1 Cor. 1:21). Salvation is by believing, and if we tell the lost man that he cannot believe, we shut the gates of Heaven against him and find ourselves in the hideous company of him who "hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4:4). Unconditional Election The teaching of Five-Point Calvinism is that God has determined and decreed that some are to be saved without any conditions to be met on their part. This is called Unconditional Election and is the choosing of some to salvation in Christ, while at the same time, leaving the rest in their lost condition by not choosing them. This election is not based on God's foreknowing that certain would believe, but is based on His sovereign will to elect certain ones. Those who are not chosen to be part of the Elect of God can in no way enter into that company. In line with this teaching, the statement is made that God does not love all men, but only those whom he has chosen to be saved. The Scriptures are very plain that God has His Elect ones who by faith in Jesus Christ are predestinated "to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom. 8:29). They are adopted by God and Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4,5). This election is plainly declared to be based on the foreknowledge of God (1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29). Since God knows the end from the beginning, He foreknows those who will believe in Christ. He has purposed that they will be to the praise of His glory throughout the ages and through them He will "show the exceeding riches of His grace" (Eph. 2:7). The Scriptures are also very plain in stating that "whosoever will" may come to Christ. Please read the following Scriptures— John 3:15,16; 4:14; 12:46; Acts 2:21, 10:43; Rom. 10:13; Rev. 22:17. The word whosoever means "all, any, every, the whole." Since we believe in the verbal, plenary inspiration of the Word of God we are forced to believe that when God moves the Scripture writers to say "whosoever," then that is exactly what He means. That there is a condition to be met in order for one to be saved is proved by our Lord's words in John 8:24, "for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." Other Scriptures have already been quoted under Total Inability to bear out the conditional requirement of believing in order to have salvation. That God loves all men in this world and sent His Son to die for them is abundantly clear from John 3:16. The Five-Point Calvinist changes the meaning of the word "world" here and adds to the Word of God by placing immediately behind it two words, "the elect." The verse then appears this way, "For God so loved the world (the elect) that He gave His only begotten Son, etc." I have seen this verse written in this way in gospel tracts. The word world is used 77 times in the Gospel of John. I would encourage you to take Strong's Concordance and look up each occurrence, then insert the words "the elect" behind each usage of it. You do not have to go far before you see how ridiculous it is. You see, beloved, if God does not love all men, then we should not love them either. Since our Christian character comes from the indwelling of our Lord, we cannot show forth an attribute that is superior to His. Yet, strangely enough, the Word of God says we are to love our enemies, our wives, our husbands, our children. If we must love lost sinners, and our Lord is holier than we are, we must believe that He loves them too. I'll believe John 3:16 as it stands, unaltered by the followers of John Calvin. Limited Atonement
The Five-Point Calvinist states that Christ died on the cross for the sins of the Elect. To say that He died for the sins of the Non-Elect is not reasonable. Since, according to their system, God has chosen some to be saved and chosen the rest to be lost, He cannot require the death of Christ for those He does not plan to save anyhow. Therefore, the atonement of Christ is limited to the Elect only. If you have accepted Total Inability and Unconditional Election it is necessary to limit the scope of Christ's death on Calvary. The only problem is that the Scriptures directly state that the death of Christ was for every man and is effective for the sinner the moment he believes. In 1 John 2:2 it is said that His death was a propitiation (satisfaction) not only for our sins, but for the sins of "the whole world." In Hebrews 2:9, it says that Christ tasted death for "every man." 1 Tim. 2:6 says that He gave Himself a ransom for "all." John the Baptist declared in John 1:29 that Jesus was the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the "world." In Isaiah 53:6, the Word of God states that "all" have gone astray (I would assume that refers to all men in the world) and that the Lord laid on Jesus the iniquity of us "all." Since the gospel is for "whosoever will" and it consists of the good news that Christ died for sinners, I must believe that the atonement of Christ is not limited. Not only is the atonement of Christ unlimited and offered to all men, but the Holy Spirit is presently working to convict the world (all men) of one sin. That sin is that Christ paid the penalty for their sins, but they do not believe on Him (John 16:8,9). God is "not willing that any should perish" (2 Peter 3:9) and it is said that He will "have all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). In Scripture we find the Father giving the Son to the world, the Son tasting death for every man, and the Holy Spirit convicting the world. Since God's work must be our work, we should part company with Five-Point Calvinism right here. The Bible knows nothing of a limited atonement that comes from the vain intellectual reasoning of men. Irresistible Grace
Calvinists teach that all those whom God has chosen to be saved will be unable to resist the call of God. Since He has predetermined them to be saved, He effectually calls and regenerates them without any condition to be met on their part. The Word of God teaches that "the grace of God that bringeth salvation has appeared to all men" (Titus 2:11). Since God has provided salvation for all men and yet all do not come, that is proof enough that men do resist the grace of God. The Bible gives clear instances of men resisting the grace of God. Jesus stood over Jerusalem and said that He wanted to gather them unto Himself, but they "would not" (Matt. 23:37). When Stephen preached to the Jews, he said that regarding their attitude toward God's Word, they were stiff-necked and that they were resisting the Holy Spirit Who was calling them (Acts 7:51). The writer of Hebrews, when describing those "who draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10:39), said that though they were sanctified by the blood of Christ, yet they had "done despite unto the Spirit of grace (Heb. 10:29). Here it is plain that the blood of Christ was available to them for salvation, but was refused. That the Spirit of God strives with sinners to bring them to repentance and faith is stated in Gen. 6:3. This verse also states that God will one day give man up when His grace is continually resisted. Perseverance of the Saints The last point in the Calvinist system of teaching is that those whom God has chosen to be saved will persevere to the end and will not finally and fully depart from the faith. The one who is truly born again is eternally secure in Christ and is never in danger of losing his salvation. Most Fundamentalists would find little to disagree with in this statement, except to qualify the way God chooses men to be saved by stating that His election is according to His foreknowledge. The eternal security of the believer is a fundamental doctrine of Scripture. However, the false teaching set forth under the first four points of Calvinism bear their inevitable fruit here. There is a subtle exclusion here which is not seen in the stated position, but which eventually shows up in practice. In churches where these doctrines are taught, there are the following effects on those who come into the assembly:— 1. The man who is under the conviction of the Spirit and on the threshold of believing in Christ is soon hearing that he cannot of himself believe and unless God has chosen him to salvation there is nothing he can do. 2. The one who has been born again, but is still a babe in Christ, is often expected to exhibit a spiritual life more advanced than his growth to date. Because the fruit is slow in coming, he begins to doubt whether he is truly born again. Thus, one who is a child of God begins to doubt that he is a true believer and sits at home in absolute frustration, convinced that God has not chosen him. 3. Those who are saved and living a spiritual life begin to develop an intellectual superiority over those who cannot see the glorious truths revealed by John Calvin. Since they are the Elect of God and the unsaved are the Non-Elect whom God does not love, they begin to display a self-righteous attitude toward those lost in sin. The attitude of the Jews toward the Gentiles, whom they referred to as "dogs," begins to come into the life of the Calvinist. It is the attitude displayed by John Calvin when he desired the death penalty to be pronounced upon Servetus. John Calvin handled the theological part of the trial of Servetus, who was subsequently burned at the stake for blasphemy. The usage of the phrase "Perseverance of the Saints" gives the impression that the saints are doing something to keep themselves secure in their salvation. A more Scriptural phrase would seem to be "The Preservation of the Saints" (1 Thess. 5:23; Jude 1). Beloved, inquire of your Bible teacher regarding Calvinism. Do not be satisfied with a "purposely evasive" answer. The man who holds these teachings usually will not be a soul-winner or be mission minded. If your church has no outreach for the lost, it may well be that Five-Point Calvinism has already done it's deadly work.Paul L. Freeman hope this helps !!! I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out which is Paul Freeman's 'paper' and which are his comments and which are yours. If all the comments are his comments, I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out where his presentation of each of the 5 points ends and where his refutation begins. Its his comments not mine brother. |
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Post by makesends on Aug 15, 2022 5:31:54 GMT -8
I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out which is Paul Freeman's 'paper' and which are his comments and which are yours. If all the comments are his comments, I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out where his presentation of each of the 5 points ends and where his refutation begins. Its his comments not mine brother. Ok, well, I don't have the patience nor the time right now to refute his refutations, but Freeman's 'paper' does a bit of misrepresentation of Calvinism, or maybe I should say, it falls short of what Calvinism teaches. As we have discussed on a different forum site, lately concerning the notion of double-predestination, the view of those who oppose Calvinism claim concerning Calvinism is that Calvinists believe that God created the Elect for Salvation, and the Non-Elect for everlasting punishment. To me, that is a misrepresentation of the facts, as God's primary purpose for creating the non-elect is as it puts rather plainly in Romans 9, with many hints elsewhere, that they are created for his glory, to show God's purity and justice, and his mercy, to the objects of his mercy. It is a far secondary thing to have created them for destruction. Likewise, here in Freeman's 'paper', he makes similar misrepresentations; one example right off the bat is when he says (under Total Inability), "Calvinists state very emphatically that man cannot repent or believe the gospel." He is wrong there, because he doesn't give the full facts to the statement, until later. He should have said, "Calvinists state very emphatically that [fallen] man cannot [of himself] repent or believe the gospel." But instead Freeman chose to prejudice the reader against Calvinism by leaving that out of his first couple of statements presumably given only as instructive concerning what Calvinists believe. This example is typical of most of his misrepresentations throughout the body of his 'paper'. He also makes generalizations and assumptions typical of his ilk, such as the notion that if God commands something it is therefore necessarily implied that obedience to the command is possible. Yet, he fails to show how this is necessarily so. The command does not imply the ability to obey. |
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Post by TibiasDad on Aug 16, 2022 20:13:26 GMT -8
Its his comments not mine brother. ]Ok, well, I don't have the patience nor the time right now to refute his refutations, but Freeman's 'paper' does a bit of misrepresentation of Calvinism, or maybe I should say, it falls short of what Calvinism teaches. As we have discussed on a different forum site, lately concerning the notion of double-predestination, the view of those who oppose Calvinism claim concerning Calvinism is that Calvinists believe that God created the Elect for Salvation, and the Non-Elect for everlasting punishment. To me, that is a misrepresentation of the facts, as God's primary purpose for creating the non-elect is as it puts rather plainly in Romans 9, with many hints elsewhere, that they are created for his glory, to show God's purity and justice, and his mercy, to the objects of his mercy. It is a far secondary thing to have created them for destruction. Likewise, here in Freeman's 'paper', he makes similar misrepresentations; one example right off the bat is when he says (under Total Inability), "Calvinists state very emphatically that man cannot repent or believe the gospel." He is wrong there, because he doesn't give the full facts to the statement, until later. He should have said, "Calvinists state very emphatically that [fallen] man cannot [of himself] repent or believe the gospel." But instead Freeman chose to prejudice the reader against Calvinism by leaving that out of his first couple of statements presumably given only as instructive concerning what Calvinists believe. This example is typical of most of his misrepresentations throughout the body of his 'paper'. He also makes generalizations and assumptions typical of his ilk, such as the notion that if God commands something it is therefore necessarily implied that obedience to the command is possible. Yet, he fails to show how this is necessarily so. The command does not imply the ability to obey. If God's actions are the result of his good pleasure reasoning before creation, and said good pleasure conclusions are determined to be as they will ultimately be prior to their realities being created or implemented, then God most certainly creates those destined for salvation and destruction without recourse! It is not a misrepresentation of the logical end of predeterminational reasoning! Arminian thought does say "that [fallen] man cannot [of himself] repent or believe the gospel." So the statement already assumes these unstated premises. We render prevenient grace as the mitigating factor rather than irresistible regenerating grace. So I think you misrepresent what we, at least the Arminian objectors, hold to! The argument of necessity of function or nonfunctional capacities is not answerable by the call to repentance itself! Its functionality must be determined by other factors, in my humble opinion! Again, both Arminian and Calvinistic arguments hold that man is incapable, in his own power, of obligating God's favorable response to anything that we do. God is the only one who decides if, to reconcile with any man, or by what means such reconciliation will happen. I have long argued that even if man could naturally understand the reality of his sinfulness and could cry out to God for help, this does not mean God is obligated to do so! The whole inability thing is meaningless scare crow manufacturing operation, because God cannot be obligated by anything other than himself! Doug [/font] |
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Post by civic on Aug 17, 2022 3:52:57 GMT -8
Ok, well, I don't have the patience nor the time right now to refute his refutations, but Freeman's 'paper' does a bit of misrepresentation of Calvinism, or maybe I should say, it falls short of what Calvinism teaches. As we have discussed on a different forum site, lately concerning the notion of double-predestination, the view of those who oppose Calvinism claim concerning Calvinism is that Calvinists believe that God created the Elect for Salvation, and the Non-Elect for everlasting punishment. To me, that is a misrepresentation of the facts, as God's primary purpose for creating the non-elect is as it puts rather plainly in Romans 9, with many hints elsewhere, that they are created for his glory, to show God's purity and justice, and his mercy, to the objects of his mercy. It is a far secondary thing to have created them for destruction. Likewise, here in Freeman's 'paper', he makes similar misrepresentations; one example right off the bat is when he says (under Total Inability), "Calvinists state very emphatically that man cannot repent or believe the gospel." He is wrong there, because he doesn't give the full facts to the statement, until later. He should have said, "Calvinists state very emphatically that [fallen] man cannot [of himself] repent or believe the gospel." But instead Freeman chose to prejudice the reader against Calvinism by leaving that out of his first couple of statements presumably given only as instructive concerning what Calvinists believe. This example is typical of most of his misrepresentations throughout the body of his 'paper'. He also makes generalizations and assumptions typical of his ilk, such as the notion that if God commands something it is therefore necessarily implied that obedience to the command is possible. Yet, he fails to show how this is necessarily so. The command does not imply the ability to obey. If God's actions are the result of his good pleasure reasoning before creation, and said good pleasure conclusions are determined to be as they will ultimately be prior to their realities being created or implemented, then God most certainly creates those destined for salvation and destruction without recourse! It is not a misrepresentation of the logical end of predeterminational reasoning! Arminian thought does say "that [fallen] man cannot [of himself] repent or believe the gospel." So the statement already assumes these unstated premises. We render prevenient grace as the mitigating factor rather than irresistible regenerating grace. So I think you misrepresent what we, at least the Arminian objectors, hold to! The argument of necessity of function or nonfunctional capacities is not answerable by the call to repentance itself! Its functionality must be determined by other factors, in my humble opinion! Again, both Arminian and Calvinistic arguments hold that man is incapable, in his own power, of obligating God's favorable response to anything that we do. God is the only one who decides if, to reconcile with any man, or by what means such reconciliation will happen. I have long argued that even if man could naturally understand the reality of his sinfulness and could cry out to God for help, this does not mean God is obligated to do so! The whole inability thing is meaningless scare crow manufacturing operation, because God cannot be obligated by anything other than himself! Doug Well said Doug I agree. |
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 17, 2022 4:33:14 GMT -8
Its his comments not mine brother. Ok, well, I don't have the patience nor the time right now to refute his refutations, but Freeman's 'paper' does a bit of misrepresentation of Calvinism, or maybe I should say, it falls short of what Calvinism teaches. As we have discussed on a different forum site, lately concerning the notion of double-predestination, the view of those who oppose Calvinism claim concerning Calvinism is that Calvinists believe that God created the Elect for Salvation, and the Non-Elect for everlasting punishment. To me, that is a misrepresentation of the facts, as God's primary purpose for creating the non-elect is as it puts rather plainly in Romans 9, with many hints elsewhere, that they are created for his glory, to show God's purity and justice, and his mercy, to the objects of his mercy. It is a far secondary thing to have created them for destruction. Likewise, here in Freeman's 'paper', he makes similar misrepresentations; one example right off the bat is when he says (under Total Inability), "Calvinists state very emphatically that man cannot repent or believe the gospel." He is wrong there, because he doesn't give the full facts to the statement, until later. He should have said, "Calvinists state very emphatically that [fallen] man cannot [of himself] repent or believe the gospel." But instead Freeman chose to prejudice the reader against Calvinism by leaving that out of his first couple of statements presumably given only as instructive concerning what Calvinists believe. This example is typical of most of his misrepresentations throughout the body of his 'paper'. He also makes generalizations and assumptions typical of his ilk, such as the notion that if God commands something it is therefore necessarily implied that obedience to the command is possible. Yet, he fails to show how this is necessarily so. The command does not imply the ability to obey. Oh I love this one "I don't have the patience nor the time right now to refute his refutations" I'm swiping it  |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Aug 22, 2022 4:59:35 GMT -8
Has anyone ever thought of point 5? Perseverance of the saints?
I find it Odd that calvinist views are so terrified of even thinking that to fall on ones knees and call out for Gods mercy is saving oneself. Yet their final point is that one will persevere in faith. Which by definition, is self effort. Which is really no different than the arminian view of saying salvation can be lost if we do not persevere on faith or commit a grave sin, Which is also self effort.
I am also amazed at the depravity issue. When I think of a depraved spirit. i think of a spirit that can do no good. There are non righteous no not one. Yet when it comes to becoming poor in spirit (spiritually bankrupt) and becoming as the tax collector. This is not a “good deed” as the calvinist puts it. Nor is it a good deed of choosing to follow christ as the arminians put it. It is an act of desperation. A person who through the work of the Holy Spirit in helping them understand the word, The help of the love letter that God gave to us, and the help of people God has put in their life realizes their depraved state, Realized their guilt, their rebellion, That they have been Gods enemy, and this separation is incurable, this barrier is so deep and so wide that it can not be broken, that they have to rely solely on God to have mercy on them, and confess that God himself came to earth to take on their sin, so they may be restored to life (born again) And this God, who loved them even as his enemy, is offering them the gift of life. And all they need to do is call out to him in true living faith, and he will save them. This is not a good deed. Or self effort. It is called total humility, a broken spirit that has no place else to turn. A person who stops his work. And allows someone else to do all the work for him.
It is AFTER we are saved. That the work comes. We work (love) because God first loved us. We can not do any good. Bear any fruit. Or even pick up our cross until we have first experienced the Love of God in salvation.
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alive
New Member
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Post by alive on Sept 2, 2022 4:35:16 GMT -8
I think that total depravity as commonly discussed is the keystone, so to speak, for the 5 points. Without it, all bets are off and with it, the rest make sense.
Perhaps why Paul opened up his vast in scope letter to Romans as he did.
Question: how sinful is sin? How deep and broad was Adam’s fall? Was the fall a partial one?
Or put another way, how dead is dead in sin?
Question: have Arms read Remonstrants?
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alive
New Member
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Post by alive on Sept 2, 2022 8:52:08 GMT -8
Well then, just as an FYI for the Arms among us, this from the pen of brother Arminius taken from the Remonstrance itself.
Arminius:Disputation 11; Sections 7 and 8
VII. In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, "Without me ye can do nothing." St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: "Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing." That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man.
VIII. The mind of man, in this state, is dark, destitute of the saving knowledge of God, and, according to the Apostle, incapable of those things which belong to the Spirit of God. For "the animal man has no perception of the things of the Spirit of God;" (1 Cor. ii. 14;) in which passage man is called "animal," not from the animal body, but from anima, the soul itself, which is the most noble part of man, but which is so encompassed about with the clouds of ignorance, as to be distinguished by the epithets of "vain" and "foolish;" and men themselves, thus darkened in their minds, are denominated "mad" or foolish, "fools," and even "darkness" itself. (Rom. i. 21, 22; Ephes. iv. 17, 18; Tit. iii. 3; Ephes. v. 8.) This is true, not only when, from the truth of the law which has in some measure been inscribed on the mind, it is preparing to form conclusions by the understanding; but likewise when, by simple apprehension, it would receive the truth of the gospel externally offered to it. For the human mind judges that to be "foolishness" which is the most excellent "wisdom" of God. (1 Cor. i. 18, 24.) On this account, what is here said must be understood not only of practical understanding and the judgment of particular approbation, but also of theoretical understanding and the judgment of general estimation.
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