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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2022 14:13:35 GMT -8
I thought the first point was Total Depravity vs. Total Inability. That is the way the op has it, but that is not the classical point of the "T" in TULIP is Total Depravity. The point our inability is due to a depravity or depravation due to sin is, imo, more informative than inability alone communicates. |
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Post by Parker on Sept 5, 2022 16:08:46 GMT -8
From what I have been led to believe the Calvinist’s view is that fallen man’s depravity is such that his constitutional freedom is effectively negated. His will is bound, not free. Regardless how generous God’s offer of salvation in Christ, no human being either will or can accept it in his natural state. That is the reason salvation must be applied by a gracious work that is “against” man’s will, that supernaturally overcomes his natural resistance. And that is the reason salvation begins, logically, with regeneration: a person must be regenerated before he is capable of faith.
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Post by rockson on Sept 6, 2022 13:34:49 GMT -8
From what I have been led to believe the Calvinist’s view is that fallen man’s depravity is such that his constitutional freedom is effectively negated. His will is bound, not free. Regardless how generous God’s offer of salvation in Christ, no human being either will or can accept it in his natural state. That is the reason salvation must be applied by a gracious work that is “against” man’s will, that supernaturally overcomes his natural resistance. And that is the reason salvation begins, logically, with regeneration: a person must be regenerated before he is capable of faith. Who says though that man doesn't have the freedom to do certain things? Can man be saved by trying to keep the law? No. He'll eventually always fail. Who says though that a man can't decide to confess the Lordship of Christ and allow Christ's nature to then start flowing through him? You say man's will is bound? And where is that found? So your position that salvation begins logically with regeneration is ONLY true if one buys into your premise. |
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Post by Parker on Sept 6, 2022 14:56:21 GMT -8
From what I have been led to believe the Calvinist’s view is that fallen man’s depravity is such that his constitutional freedom is effectively negated. His will is bound, not free. Regardless how generous God’s offer of salvation in Christ, no human being either will or can accept it in his natural state. That is the reason salvation must be applied by a gracious work that is “against” man’s will, that supernaturally overcomes his natural resistance. And that is the reason salvation begins, logically, with regeneration: a person must be regenerated before he is capable of faith. Who says though that man doesn't have the freedom to do certain things? Can man be saved by trying to keep the law? No. He'll eventually always fail. Who says though that a man can't decide to confess the Lordship of Christ and allow Christ's nature to then start flowing through him? You say man's will is bound? And where is that found? So your position that salvation begins logically with regeneration is ONLY true if one buys into your premise. No that is not my position at all. it is what I've been led to believe that the Calvinist view it is. And I'm not asking anyone buy into anything. I actually go along with the OP. |
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Post by rockson on Sept 6, 2022 18:49:51 GMT -8
I see. As I mentioned when they say they logically conclude something has to be it would only be true if their prior premise was correct.
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Post by Parker on Sept 7, 2022 5:13:33 GMT -8
I see. As I mentioned when they say they logically conclude something has to be it would only be true if their prior premise was correct. matters and anyone who embraces or expresses a contradiction is dabbling in nonsense. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2022 8:50:13 GMT -8
From what I have been led to believe the Calvinist’s view is that fallen man’s depravity is such that his constitutional freedom is effectively negated. His will is bound, not free. Regardless how generous God’s offer of salvation in Christ, no human being either will or can accept it in his natural state. That is the reason salvation must be applied by a gracious work that is “against” man’s will, that supernaturally overcomes his natural resistance. And that is the reason salvation begins, logically, with regeneration: a person must be regenerated before he is capable of faith. That's a very good summation. The problem is monergists and synergist will read even those words differently. |
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Post by civic on Sept 8, 2022 6:27:53 GMT -8
From what I have been led to believe the Calvinist’s view is that fallen man’s depravity is such that his constitutional freedom is effectively negated. His will is bound, not free. Regardless how generous God’s offer of salvation in Christ, no human being either will or can accept it in his natural state. That is the reason salvation must be applied by a gracious work that is “against” man’s will, that supernaturally overcomes his natural resistance. And that is the reason salvation begins, logically, with regeneration: a person must be regenerated before he is capable of faith. That's a very good summation. The problem is monergists and synergist will read even those words differently. Yes that is true as many times those groups define things differently. So until they come to and agreement on certain words we/they will talk past one another most of the time. |
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Post by Redeemed on Dec 25, 2022 14:04:05 GMT -8
Taking on the “T” In Tulip Man is Not Totally Depraved – Calvin’s theology begins with the doctrine of “Total Depravity,” the idea that man is born so totally and completely sinful, he is incapable of making a right choice. This idea of “original sin” is foreign to Scripture. Instead, Scripture teaches that sin is the result of willful disobedience to God: Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins 1 John 3:4 Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. Calvinism allows man to say, “Sin is not my fault. It is my ‘sinful nature.'” However, Scripture teaches that sin is our fault. Scripture teaches that man has freewill and is able to choose whom he will serve: Joshua 24:15 And if you be unwilling to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Most Calvinists interpret total depravity to mean that any man in his natural state is incapable or unable to do anything to please or gain merit before God. He is totally depraved of any urging to seek after God. Total depravity means that man is in complete rebellion against God, and by his “free will” he cannot and will never make a decision for Christ. When man is totally depraved, he cannot discern the truth of the gospel or understand it when it is presented to him. The Calvinist qualifies the meaning of “free will,” indicating that man is not totally free, but is able to respond to God because of election and irresistible grace. However, the Bible teaches that man is made in the image and likeness of God. Since God is Person (personality), man reflects the personhood of God through his human personality, made up of intellect, emotion, will, and moral awareness. Because man’s will is reflective of God’s will, man has the duty and ability to make moral choices based on his understanding and motivations. Man is given an opportunity to make a moral choice for God–as reflected in repenting, turning, believing, and receiving salvation–and is condemned if he rejects. God, in the integrity of His nature, could not ask man to do what he was incapable of doing nor could He hold man responsible for all choices, whether good or evil, if the choices were not indigenous to man. Since man will be judged by God for his decision, it would be immoral for God to punish man for his lack of response to that which he could not do. There are illustrations of men in Scripture who have made decisions against the purpose of God (Pharaoh, Esau, Lot, Balaam). Also, there are men who have made difficult decisions, and God honored them (Abraham, Elijah, and those mentioned in Hebrews 11). Dig Deeper: WEAKNESSES OF CALVINISM |
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