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Post by Bible Highlighter on Sept 21, 2022 9:05:27 GMT -8
I believe we are first saved INITIALLY by God's grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Ephesians 2:1).
I am against the position that water baptism is done for INITIAL Salvation (Which is what the Catholic church and the Church of Christ believes). Lutherans claim that baptism is for salvation, but I am not done the research to see if they believe that is the first thing you must do to be initially saved.
Do I see baptism as a salvation issue (after they are initially saved by God's grace)? Well, I believe a person can accept Jesus as their Savior before they die in their hospital bed and be saved (without water baptism). John 1:12 makes it clear that even those who believe on his name are given power or right to become sons of God. I see that a believer can even go years in being saved without being water baptized. But I see that if a believer lives out their faith, they will in time know of the baptism issue and desire to obey the Lord as a part of the faith. If they reject baptism, it falls really close in rejecting an aspect of the faith (Which can potentially be dangerous). Is it a salvation issue ultimately? I cannot say really. The Bible does not specifically say. Only God can make that determination ultimately. But a believer should not reject water baptism because it is a part of the faith and the just live by faith.
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Post by Bible Highlighter on Sept 21, 2022 9:08:02 GMT -8
Water baptism happens after we are initially saved by God’s grace, and after we have been baptized into the Spirit.
Water baptism is merely a part of our continued faith in God.
Just as Noah followed his instructions in building the Ark by faith (Hebrews 11:7).
We are to follow our instructions in the faith, too (Which would be the commands that come primarily from Jesus and His followers and not Moses).
Faith is spiritual. For without faith, it is impossible to please Him (God) (Hebrews 11:6).
After we are saved without works INITIALLY, we need to continue in the faith (Which leads us to both believe certain doctrines and to do certain things that God is calling us to do as a part of the New Testament).
Boasting is excluded when it comes to the faith (See: Romans 3:27).
So if we are following our instructions by faith like Noah did in building the Ark, we cannot boast because we are simply doing what God told us to do. Therefore the works spoken of in Ephesians 2:9 are not a part of the faith (Whereby men would boast in themselves).
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Post by Bible Highlighter on Sept 21, 2022 9:15:19 GMT -8
I used to hold to the view that Spirit baptism replaces water baptism but I have abandoned this viewpoint. It seeks to create a hidden narrative that does not really exist in the Bible when we read about Peter, and others baptizing. It suggests that they were acting by imperfect knowledge when this is not really explained in Scripture at all. Hebrews 9:10 sounds like it could include water baptism passing away, but I think that does not do justice to other verses. One verse cannot unravel tons of other verses where we see baptism take place. Where is this secret narrative that the apostles acted by imperfect knowledge and God was still operating in their life. Show me that narrative in Scripture. It simply does not exist. This is why I abandoned it. It sounded plausible connecting 1 Corinthians 1:17, Luke 16:16, Hebrews 9:10, but there were too many gaps in the story to make it connect.
Alan Ballou has a good video that has helped me here.
While I do not agree with everything Alan Ballou says or teaches on everything, he has helped me to realize the importance of believing only what is written. Where does it say in the Bible clearly that baptism in the name of Jesus has ended? Where does it say in the Bible that the apostles like Peter were acting in imperfect knowledge at Pentecost? This is the problem I had with holding to this position (of which I believed for a few years).
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Post by Bible Highlighter on Sept 21, 2022 9:18:46 GMT -8
The strongest points I recently held to for Spirit baptism replacing water baptism was...
#1. 1 Corinthians 1:17 (along with 1 Corinthians 11:1). Paul says he comes not to baptize but to preach the gospel.
In 1 Corinthians 11:1, Paul says we are to follow his example. So if we are to follow his example, then we should say to others we come not to baptize but to preach the gospel.
#2. Luke 16:16 (in that the Law and the prophets was until John and therefore the teaching on baptism that came from John was of the Old Law).
#3. Hebrews 9:10 talks about how baptimos (Greek) (washings - English) was imposed on them until the time of reformation.
There are other points, but I think they can easily be taken down and are weak on their own.
My rebuttal of my own previous strong points on this topic:
#1. My response on 1 Corinthians 1:17: Well, in context, Paul was saying what he did in 1 Corinthians 1:17 in response to his rebuke of the Corinthians in that some of them said they were of Apollos and others said they were of Paul. Paul was saying that Christ did not originally send Paul out to just baptize only as his primary mission. Baptism is something we just simply do after we are initially first saved by God's grace through believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, and or seeking forgiveness of one's sins with the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul was saying that baptism alone was not his sole purpose or mission. I say this because we see Paul water baptize even the jailor and his household in the middle of the night (after the jailor first was initially saved by believing in Jesus). If we are to truly follow the example of Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:1, then we should water baptize like he did.
#2. My response on Luke 16:16: The apostles were told by the Lord Jesus Himself to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19). The apostles took this to mean as being baptized into the name of Jesus (Because that is what we see them do). God talked to the apostles many times directly, and if they were in error on this doctrine of baptism, then it would not make any sense for God to keep remaining silent on this issue. In fact, God seemed to operate just fine in their life when they were water baptized. Granted, this was not always the case. The Spirit did come upon Cornelius and his house before they were water baptized. But the point here is we don't read anywhere in Scripture about how the apostles were acting with imperfect knowledge when it came to the baptism issue. We also do not read anywhere about how water baptism in the name of Jesus has ended. So John's water baptism vs. being baptized in the name of Jesus is different. Remember, the disciples of John at Ephesus did not know really about salvation in Jesus yet. They needed to know about Jesus as being the Savior and to believe in him. Once this happened, they were then re-baptized in the name of Jesus (because they accepted Him as their Savior) and because it is a part of the great commission in Matthew 28:19.
#3. My response on Hebrews 9:10: There is no indication that baptism in the name of Jesus was imposed on believers until the time of reformation. There is no indication that the apostles were acting in error since day one on this point with God not speaking up about it. Hebrews 9:10 would be the Old Testament washings and or rituals and it does not automatically mean it was in reference to the apostles making a mistake (When Scripture does not say that).
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Post by Bible Highlighter on Sept 21, 2022 9:28:50 GMT -8
We would need a clear verse or passage by Jesus, or by an apostle saying water baptism in the name of Jesus has clearly ended (Note: This would not be John's water baptism of which we know has ended). Inferences off verses that could be equally read to support water baptism in the name of Jesus is not a good case to make. All the verses that support Spirit baptism replacing water baptism (in the name of Jesus) is conjecture at best and the verses used to defend that position can be equally interpreted to defend that water baptism (in the name of Jesus) is still in effect. That’s why I have a problem with idea that “Spirit baptism replacing water baptism (in the name of Jesus).” It’s not clearly written. It seeks to create a hidden narrative that does not exist.
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Source:
conjecture - Google Search
There are several problems with the position of saying that Spirit baptism replaces water baptism:
#1. It attacks the apostles. For it seeks to blame the apostles of God for making a mistake (by not understanding Spirit baptism) based on verses that could be equally read to defend water baptism.
#2. It attacks the Bible Alone position in that it is not clearly written and one must go more by their own thoughts or guesswork to make this theology work.
#3. It seeks to attack a given instruction by God within the faith (Which leads to potential disobedience with God).
#4. It seeks to attack Pentecost. For it paints Pentecost (the birth of the church) as an imperfect event because Peter made the blunder of water baptizing everyone when he should not have done so.
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Post by Bible Highlighter on Sept 21, 2022 9:40:20 GMT -8
I was water baptized in April of 2013. It was a really happy day and I did feel the hand of God upon me (When I did so), but was I any different after baptism? I do not honestly recall. Only God would know in my life by that. I believe Romans 6:3-5 is referring to how our baptism is in the LIKENESS (symbolic parallel) of Christ’s death and that we are to walk in newness of life (i.e. living righteously) which is the LIKENESS (symbolic parallel) of the resurrection. I believe water baptism is a part of our faith like all the other instructions we must strive to follow with the help of God.
Romans 6:3-5
3 “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:”
Those who believe “Spirit baptism replaces water baptism” generally hold to the view that Romans 6:3-5 is literally talking about how we are buried with Christ in our baptism. But this is symbolic and not literal based on Romans 6:5 because it says that this baptism is in the LIKENESS of Christ's death. So this is talking about water baptism and not Spirit baptism as they claim (because this baptism is in “likeness,” i.e. symbolic of something else).
All believers are Spirit baptized into one body and made to drink of one Spirit automatically when they genuinely accept Jesus Christ as their Savior (See: 1 Corinthians 12:13). That is when they are truly changed spiritually and begin to crucify the old man. This happens before water baptism. In fact, we see the Spirit baptize Cornelius and his household before they are water baptized by Peter. But that does not mean water baptism is not a later requirement after we are initially saved by God's grace and we receive the Spirit.
Now, while we must be water baptized as a part of the faith after we are saved by God's grace, some falsely believe water baptism is the initial point of contact of faith for salvation by pointing to Pentecost.
However, the event at Pentecost was an audience of Jews only. Jews already believed in GOD and they did not need to be initially saved. These Jews missed their own Messiah and they needed to repent and come back to God. Also, the word “for” in Acts 2:38 can be defined as “because” based on older dictionaries. So Peter is saying to repent and be baptized because of the remission of sins provided by Christ's atonement. In fact, this is what we read in the Amplified Translation.
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Post by Bible Highlighter on Sept 21, 2022 10:28:31 GMT -8
I used to believe the one baptism in Ephesians 4:5 was talking about Spirit baptism. But I don't believe this verse is making an absolute statement but it is talking within the framework of what we must do (i.e. it is referring to water baptism).
Ephesians 4:1-6 says,
“I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
The context is focused on doing what God says.
1. Walk worthy of the vocation Wherewith ye (you-all) are called. 2. Forebear one another in love. 3. Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
According to Ephesians 4: We must recognize that there is one body of Christ (body of believers we must love).
We must recognize that there is only one God and or one Lord, and one Spirit (we must love). Yet, we believe in the Trinity. The Father (GOD), and the Lord Jesus is also GOD. The Spirit also is GOD. They are not three gods. They are three distinct persons and, yet they are all one GOD.
So if one believes Ephesians 4:5 is referring to Spirit baptism as the one and only baptism (because that is the one and only most important baptism we need to have), so then by this logic, this passage would be teaching against the Trinity (see again my point above).
There is one faith.
There is one baptism (in context to Paul’s original point) of us doing three things.
While Jesus (GOD) does baptize us into the Holy Spirit (all believers), the context is not about God doing this baptism for you in this particular instance in Scripture.
So we must conclude that this is the baptism we need to be concerned with in that we must be water baptized in the name of Jesus.
We are to follow our instructions in the Word of God as a part of the faith.
For the just shall live by faith.
And only those who are justified by faith have peace with GOD.
Now, faith may start off as a belief alone in our Initial Salvation (Romans 4) (Titus 2:5), but faith does not continue that way.
By faith Noah prepared an Ark (Hebrews 11:7).
That’s what faith is like when we live out our faith.
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Post by Bible Highlighter on Sept 21, 2022 10:40:02 GMT -8
1 Peter 3:21 says,
“The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”
It says baptism saves us not [for] the putting away of the filth of the flesh but it saves us in having us to give an answer in that we have a good and clean conscience towards God (already). Our good and clean conscience was made possible when we first accepted Jesus as our Savior before we were water baptized. When we are first saved, we are born again spiritually by the power and resurrection of Jesus Christ with our past sins being cleansed and put away. Our conscience was cleaned by our acceptance of Jesus as our Savior. When we are first saved by God's grace, we become a new creation in Christ. We are born again.
I believe that when Peter says, “baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,” I believe he is referring to how baptism does not put away of our sin nature entirely from us. While being born again spiritually does change us, we still need to crucify the affections and lusts by faith by fighting the good fight of faith in living out our faith whereby we may lay hold on eternal life (1 Timothy 6:12) (Galatians 5:24). For Paul says lets us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
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Post by Bible Highlighter on Sept 21, 2022 10:49:26 GMT -8
Acts 19:1-7 says, “And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve.”
So Paul helps reveal John the baptist's words to these disciples of John in what John the baptist meant when John the baptist said, “believe on him which should come after him.” Paul here in this passage reveals WHO this person is to these disciples of John (Who are at Ephesus). Paul says this is Christ Jesus (Which was a new revelation to these disciples of John). Seeing they believed in Jesus for the first time, they then were water baptized in the NAME OF the LORD JESUS.
In fact, we see in Scripture of where others are water baptized into the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38) (Acts 8:16). So in Acts 19: when Paul was about to water baptize them in the name of Jesus (laying his hands upon them), the Holy Ghost came upon them and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Nowhere do we see in Scripture of where the apostles lay hands on the apostles in the name of Jesus as a part of some Spirit baptism. Baptizing in the name of Jesus was always water baptism according to Scripture (See again: Acts 2:38, and Acts 8:16).
So while water baptism is not the point of contact of faith to be initially saved, it is something the apostles did as a part of their continued faith (After they were initially saved by God's grace).
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Post by Bible Highlighter on Sept 21, 2022 11:04:12 GMT -8
Some will bring up Acts 1:5 and Acts 11:16 whereby Jesus is referring to an entirely different baptism.
Acts 1:5 says:
“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”
Acts 11:16 says:
“Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.”
But Jesus is referring to the Pentecost event and the event involving Cornelius and his household here. Jesus is not referring to how they should never water baptize again. In fact, Peter did not take this to mean he should no longer water baptize because he immediately water baptized Cornelius and his household after they were baptized into the Spirit by believing the gospel message by Peter. Being baptized first in the Spirit when we first believe is not in contradiction to following our instructions in the faith to be water baptized afterwards.
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eleos
New Member
God is Love.
Posts: 44
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Post by eleos on Oct 1, 2022 11:58:56 GMT -8
That`s a fine answer but I don`t think it addresses the hook in my question. Post ascension believers are sealed till the ressurection by the Holy Spirit which is also the power by which we are ressurrected. You said believers who died before do not recieve this as they are not Spirit baptized. I`m just asking your opinion on this issue. Does this come close to answering you question? Ezekiel 37 is a prophecy about the restoration of the nation of Israel at the time of the millennial kingdom. In 1948 we have witnessed a pre-fulfillment of Israel’s return to power. But the ultimate fulfillment occurs after the second coming of Christ when the millennial kingdom is established. In theology this is called “already, but not yet.” Ezekiel 37:22, 24 clearly refers to the millennial reign of Christ when we are told “My Servant, David shall be king.” Ezekiel 37:12-14 refers to the resurrection of Old Testament saints at the beginning of the millennial kingdom. Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it,” declares the LORD.’” Ezekiel 37:12-14 (NASB) Here we are told the dead Jews will be resurrected. These bodies will be empowered by the Holy Spirit to come alive to have someone in there. This is the resurrection of the Old Testament believers. Daniel 12:1-2 also prophesied the resurrection of the Old Testament saints. Daniel 12:1-2 everyone who is found written in the book (not just the "Jewish saints") Daniel 12:1 13“But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.” When Jesus returns the 1st resurrection happens and that is for ALL the saved (not just the "jewish saints") It is not about the physical nation of Israel ... Jesus IS the real Israel. Gods covenant with the nation of Israel was conditional .... IF you keep my commands ... they failed. All have failed. No one can keep perfect covenant with God ... except Jesus ... Jesus if the fulfillment of everything. All covenants, all prophecy, all promises. New Covenant believers are Israel by faith in Jesus, because Jesus Christ is Himself the true Israel ... and so it was in the OT. Jesus’ blood not only forgave past sins but also present sins and future sins. Faith in God retro-acted the power of the Cross into the past lives of people of faith on planet earth before the Cross happened. His crucifixion was the reality of (fulfillment of) all covenants, all prophecy, all promises. Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who died for the sins of the world (John 1:29). Jesus mission became clear to mankind only after He had been crucified on the cross. Yet the scriptures reveals in Revelations 13:8 that " the Lamb was slain from the creation of the world" |
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Post by rickstudies on Oct 1, 2022 12:21:40 GMT -8
Some will bring up Acts 1:5 and Acts 11:16 whereby Jesus is referring to an entirely different baptism.
Acts 1:5 says:
“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”
Acts 11:16 says:
“Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.”
But Jesus is referring to the Pentecost event and the event involving Cornelius and his household here. Jesus is not referring to how they should never water baptize again. In fact, Peter did not take this to mean he should no longer water baptize because he immediately water baptized Cornelius and his household after they were baptized into the Spirit by believing the gospel message by Peter. Being baptized first in the Spirit when we first believe is not in contradiction to following our instructions in the faith to be water baptized afterwards. I wish you didn`t have to write a book every time you post your opinion. It`s one of the reasons I always feel like attacking you. LOL! I support water baptism as a public confession of Jesus, as a induction of new believers into the church, and as an initiation into ministry of the New Testament. All of these things pertain to the law and have their counterpart in Judaism. As such, I reject a connection between water baptism and salvation that goes even beyond what the gospel says about it. See? I said as much as you did in 3 sentences  |
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Post by Bible Highlighter on Oct 1, 2022 22:48:07 GMT -8
Some will bring up Acts 1:5 and Acts 11:16 whereby Jesus is referring to an entirely different baptism.
Acts 1:5 says:
“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”
Acts 11:16 says:
“Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.”
But Jesus is referring to the Pentecost event and the event involving Cornelius and his household here. Jesus is not referring to how they should never water baptize again. In fact, Peter did not take this to mean he should no longer water baptize because he immediately water baptized Cornelius and his household after they were baptized into the Spirit by believing the gospel message by Peter. Being baptized first in the Spirit when we first believe is not in contradiction to following our instructions in the faith to be water baptized afterwards. I wish you didn`t have to write a book every time you post your opinion. It`s one of the reasons I always feel like attacking you. LOL! I support water baptism as a public confession of Jesus, as a induction of new believers into the church, and as an initiation into ministry of the New Testament. All of these things pertain to the law and have their counterpart in Judaism. As such, I reject a connection between water baptism and salvation that goes even beyond what the gospel says about it. See? I said as much as you did in 3 sentences
As for water baptism in Jesus' name:
Well, the New Covenant officially began with Christ's death, and we see the apostles baptize others in Jesus' name as being the understood orders of the Lord Jesus whereby He told them to baptize in the NAME (a singular name that represents) the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). This would be baptizing in the name of Jesus. For Jesus is the name above all names (Philippians 2:9). The fulness of the Godhead (Trinity) dwelled in Christ bodily (Colossians 2:9). For every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:11), and nobody can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). |
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Post by Bible Highlighter on Oct 1, 2022 22:55:36 GMT -8
Some will bring up Acts 1:5 and Acts 11:16 whereby Jesus is referring to an entirely different baptism.
Acts 1:5 says:
“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”
Acts 11:16 says:
“Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.”
But Jesus is referring to the Pentecost event and the event involving Cornelius and his household here. Jesus is not referring to how they should never water baptize again. In fact, Peter did not take this to mean he should no longer water baptize because he immediately water baptized Cornelius and his household after they were baptized into the Spirit by believing the gospel message by Peter. Being baptized first in the Spirit when we first believe is not in contradiction to following our instructions in the faith to be water baptized afterwards. I wish you didn`t have to write a book every time you post your opinion. It`s one of the reasons I always feel like attacking you. LOL! I support water baptism as a public confession of Jesus, as a induction of new believers into the church, and as an initiation into ministry of the New Testament. All of these things pertain to the law and have their counterpart in Judaism. As such, I reject a connection between water baptism and salvation that goes even beyond what the gospel says about it. See? I said as much as you did in 3 sentences
Well, it's not exactly clear that it is a salvation issue, but I see that it can potentially be. I do see baptism as a part of our faith and the just shall LIVE by faith. So I believe in some cases many saints could be saved without water baptism (like those who accept Jesus on their deathbed or those who did not have the time to be baptized in this life). But those who had opportunities to be baptized by other faithful believers in the name of Jesus and they refused is problematic. A normal Christian will have a desire to be water baptized. Granted, believers are to do other things that are a part of the faith, too (like love the brethren, help the poor, preach the gospel, etcetera). Loving the brethren, preaching the good news, and helping the poor, and living holy is not an option as a part of the Christian who lives out their faith (after they were initially saved by God's grace). |
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Post by rickstudies on Oct 1, 2022 23:44:04 GMT -8
I thought my post was rather short and or reasonable. LOL!!! The reasonable post was one of 10 reasonable posts. I was one post away from having to take my sock off so I could start counting toes, an in your post above, well there goes my sock, but in the post above this one you copied and pasted one of the posts from the earlier 10. I read all 10 - so no great need to repaste them. I`m pretty sure they are all copy and paste. When you found out your file was to big you broke it up in to ten small ones. I got a bunch of those myself that I had written for my Yahoo group. I don`t use them anymore except as occaisonal reference. I`ve always had an eye out for a trinitarian church that water baptizes in Jesus name. Haven't run into any so far. |
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