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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2022 5:39:49 GMT -8
I'm dispensational pre tribulationalist / premillennialist and Lordship.  Do you believe another temple of stone will be rebuilt before the rapture? 2) In Matthew 24 Jesus is answering the disciples' question and he explicitly tells them, " You will be handed over to tribulation," and latter in that exact same conversation he tells them it is immediately after the tribulation the sign of his coming appears. In Mark 13 Jesus tells the disciples even the elect might be misled by the false teachers arising during the tribulation. In the book of Revelation, the author explicitly stated he was a partaker in the tribulation. seven letters are written to seven churches and every single one of them is told about a tribulation they must endure if they wish reward. In chapter 7 the ones whose robes were made white in the blood of the Lamb are " the ones who come out of the great tribulation." It would appear pre-tribulation is not a tenable position. 3) Before reading my next few sentences, please get out your Bible, turn to the 20th chapter of Revelation, and read it. Read the entire chapter. Now that you've read the chapter, can you tell me where that chapter explicitly states Jesus physically comes to earth? Give the chapter another read. Read it a couple of times if you like because I want anyone reading this post to examine the chapter closely, in detail, and with effort to find the place where it states Jesus comes to earth. Revelation 20 is the ONLY place in the Bible where a thousand-year reign is mentioned and nowhere does it state Jesus is reigning physically from earth. You can answer each of those question is separate posts if you like. When answering the first question, the one about the temple, please feel free to briefly outline a few more actions you believe will take place before the rapture (a return to animal sacrifices? full restoration of Israel's boundaries?). Anything you like, anything you believe I should know about the timeline. |
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Post by Aeliana on Sept 23, 2022 7:36:04 GMT -8
According to Scripture, the temple will be rebuilt by the middle of the Tribulation. So that would be after the rapture. Paul foresaw a day when the Antichrist will sit "as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." 2 Thessalonians 2:4
In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus referred to the restored temple and its desecration: "When you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place... then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.... For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:15-16, 21).
Jesus will reign on the earth:
“And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years . . . blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4
The prophet Isaiah had offered a very clear picture of this future when he wrote of a time when Israel would be reunited under one Ruler and the knowledge of God would cover the earth (Isaiah 11:1-10). This was written during the period of Israel’s decline, but it pictures the future Millennium. Notice what that prophecy says about peace in nature and among all people:
Isaiah 11:1 AND THERE shall come forth a Shoot out of the stock of Jesse [David’s father], and a Branch out of his roots shall grow and bear fruit. [Isa. 4:2; Matt. 2:23; Rev. 5:5; 22:16.]
2 And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him—the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the reverential and obedient fear of the Lord—
3 And shall make Him of quick understanding, and His delight shall be in the reverential and obedient fear of the Lord. And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, neither decide by the hearing of His ears.
4 But with righteousness and justice shall He judge the poor and decide with fairness for the meek, the poor, and the downtrodden of the earth; and He shall smite the earth and the oppressor with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of His waist and faithfulness the girdle of His loins.
6 And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the young lion and the fatted domestic animal together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed side by side, their young shall lie down together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den.
9 They shall not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.
10 And it shall be in that day that the Root of Jesse shall stand as a signal for the peoples; of Him shall the nations inquire and seek knowledge, and His dwelling shall be glory [His rest glorious]! [John 12:32.]
Isaiah’s words have crystallized the idea of the Millennium. What is described here is a complete change in all parts of this world—a time when the nature of wild animals will be changed. A child will walk among them in safety with no fear. And this passage further shows, in light of the last verse here, that even the nature of man will be changed!
This is going to happen, and it will only happen through the return of Jesus Christ to earth!
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Post by Parker on Sept 23, 2022 8:08:24 GMT -8
Third Temple to be rebuilt in Jerusalem and sacrifices reinstated? Dr. Heiser addresses a question about discussions on a physical third temple being rebuilt in Israel. One questioner asks if the apostle Paul endorsed the temple sacrificial system when he offered burnt offerings in Acts.
How does this harmonize the book of Hebrews that said the temple system was replaced by Jesus and His Church? What about the temple referred to in Revelation? Does the Bible predict a third temple in end times prophecies?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2022 12:17:19 GMT -8
According to Scripture, the temple will be rebuilt by the middle of the Tribulation. So that would be after the rapture. Paul foresaw a day when the Antichrist will sit "as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." 2 Thessalonians 2:4 In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus referred to the restored temple and its desecration: "When you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place... then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.... For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:15-16, 21). Jesus will reign on the earth:“ And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years . . . blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4 The prophet Isaiah had offered a very clear picture of this future when he wrote of a time when Israel would be reunited under one Ruler and the knowledge of God would cover the earth (Isaiah 11:1-10). This was written during the period of Israel’s decline, but it pictures the future Millennium. Notice what that prophecy says about peace in nature and among all people: Isaiah 11:1 AND THERE shall come forth a Shoot out of the stock of Jesse [David’s father], and a Branch out of his roots shall grow and bear fruit. [Isa. 4:2; Matt. 2:23; Rev. 5:5; 22:16.] 2 And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him—the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the reverential and obedient fear of the Lord— 3 And shall make Him of quick understanding, and His delight shall be in the reverential and obedient fear of the Lord. And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, neither decide by the hearing of His ears. 4 But with righteousness and justice shall He judge the poor and decide with fairness for the meek, the poor, and the downtrodden of the earth; and He shall smite the earth and the oppressor with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of His waist and faithfulness the girdle of His loins. 6 And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the young lion and the fatted domestic animal together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed side by side, their young shall lie down together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den. 9 They shall not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. 10 And it shall be in that day that the Root of Jesse shall stand as a signal for the peoples; of Him shall the nations inquire and seek knowledge, and His dwelling shall be glory [His rest glorious]! [John 12:32.] Isaiah’s words have crystallized the idea of the Millennium. What is described here is a complete change in all parts of this world—a time when the nature of wild animals will be changed. A child will walk among them in safety with no fear. And this passage further shows, in light of the last verse here, that even the nature of man will be changed! This is going to happen, and it will only happen through the return of Jesus Christ to earth!2 Thessalonians 2:4 does NOT say there will be a third temple built. Neither does Matthew 24:15-15, 21. Neither Revelation 20:4, nor Isaiah 11:1, state Jesus will be on the earth. And I do not see anywhere in this post where the scriptures precluding a pre-tribulation rapture were addressed. What I do see is a textbook example of Dispensationalism's eisegetic misuse of scripture so I hope everyone reading that post will look at the scriptures quoted and then consider how different the text of scripture is from what those verses were made to say. |
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Post by Aeliana on Sept 26, 2022 12:26:04 GMT -8
“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: … For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” – Matt. 24:15 – 21.
Now I want to point out that this Antichrist cannot commit the abomination of desolation until the Temple exists again. Also, when Israel rebuilds the Temple, it will likely stir up the Muslims and the war of Gog may also happen unless provision is made for the mosque Al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock. But, perhaps this is where the Revelation passage on the rebuilding of the Temple comes into play –
“And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.” – Rev. 11:1-2
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Post by eternallygrateful on Sept 27, 2022 11:34:48 GMT -8
Yes. Me, too. Well... I also not only believe in an AnyTime Rapture (Which could potentially be a Pre-Trib Rapture), I also believe that the remaining saints will be taken up by angels in the Middle of the Tribulation sometime after the Abomination of Desolations takes place. Do you believe another temple of stone will be rebuilt before the rapture? 2) In Matthew 24 Jesus is answering the disciples' question and he explicitly tells them, " You will be handed over to tribulation," and latter in that exact same conversation he tells them it is immediately after the tribulation the sign of his coming appears. In Mark 13 Jesus tells the disciples even the elect might be misled by the false teachers arising during the tribulation. In the book of Revelation, the author explicitly stated he was a partaker in the tribulation. seven letters are written to seven churches and every single one of them is told about a tribulation they must endure if they wish reward. In chapter 7 the ones whose robes were made white in the blood of the Lamb are " the ones who come out of the great tribulation." It would appear pre-tribulation is not a tenable position. 3) Before reading my next few sentences, please get out your Bible, turn to the 20th chapter of Revelation, and read it. Read the entire chapter. Now that you've read the chapter, can you tell me where that chapter explicitly states Jesus physically comes to earth? Give the chapter another read. Read it a couple of times if you like because I want anyone reading this post to examine the chapter closely, in detail, and with effort to find the place where it states Jesus comes to earth. Revelation 20 is the ONLY place in the Bible where a thousand-year reign is mentioned and nowhere does it state Jesus is reigning physically from earth. You can answer each of those question is separate posts if you like. When answering the first question, the one about the temple, please feel free to briefly outline a few more actions you believe will take place before the rapture (a return to animal sacrifices? full restoration of Israel's boundaries?). Anything you like, anything you believe I should know about the timeline. 1. A temple will be rebuilt. when is anyone's guess. without a temple. there can be no abomination of desolation spoken of By Daniel or Jesus 2. Matt 24 Jesus speaks of a GREAT tribulation, which has never been before or after. In which if he did not come. NO FLESH WOULD SURVIVE. That has not happened yet. 3. A rapture is not a physical return "boots on the ground" it is we meet him in the air. The world will not even see him. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2022 12:39:34 GMT -8
1) Do you believe another temple of stone will be rebuilt before the rapture? 2) In Matthew 24 Jesus is answering the disciples' question and he explicitly tells them, " You will be handed over to tribulation," and latter in that exact same conversation he tells them it is immediately after the tribulation the sign of his coming appears. In Mark 13 Jesus tells the disciples even the elect might be misled by the false teachers arising during the tribulation. In the book of Revelation, the author explicitly stated he was a partaker in the tribulation. seven letters are written to seven churches and every single one of them is told about a tribulation they must endure if they wish reward. In chapter 7 the ones whose robes were made white in the blood of the Lamb are " the ones who come out of the great tribulation." It would appear pre-tribulation is not a tenable position. 3) Before reading my next few sentences, please get out your Bible, turn to the 20th chapter of Revelation, and read it. Read the entire chapter. Now that you've read the chapter, can you tell me where that chapter explicitly states Jesus physically comes to earth? Give the chapter another read. Read it a couple of times if you like because I want anyone reading this post to examine the chapter closely, in detail, and with effort to find the place where it states Jesus comes to earth. Revelation 20 is the ONLY place in the Bible where a thousand-year reign is mentioned and nowhere does it state Jesus is reigning physically from earth. You can answer each of those question is separate posts if you like. When answering the first question, the one about the temple, please feel free to briefly outline a few more actions you believe will take place before the rapture (a return to animal sacrifices? full restoration of Israel's boundaries?). Anything you like, anything you believe I should know about the timeline. 1. A temple will be rebuilt. when is anyone's guess. without a temple. there can be no abomination of desolation spoken of By Daniel or Jesus 2. Matt 24 Jesus speaks of a GREAT tribulation, which has never been before or after. In which if he did not come. NO FLESH WOULD SURVIVE. That has not happened yet. 3. A rapture is not a physical return "boots on the ground" it is we meet him in the air. The world will not even see him. Appreciate the response but my questions were specifically intended for @bible Highlighter because of something specific he explicitly stated in his post. However, since answers were provided, I will ask you to provide me a specific statement in scripture that explicitly states a third temple will be built and not one that is interpreted to infer another future temple. I will also ask why you stick the word "GREAT" into the conversation when it does not change a single thing I posted. Jesus plainly stated the disciples would be handed over to tribulation and it would be a tribulation like none seen before or after. Lastly, I will observe that your own posts states things that aren't actually in the Bible but are specific positions asserted by Dispensational Premillennialism's reading of scripture and that by asserting the DPism you've answered the question asked in this op: Dispensationalists do take things too far! Therefore, let me ask you to SLOW DOWN. No one asked you the things you've posted and if you keep it up you'll end up doing what Dispensationalists always do: hijacking other people's ops to impose their theology on everyone else while ignoring the specifics of the op they are hijacking. ANYONE and everyone can go over to CARM, or Christian Forums, or Worthy, or just about any open forum and find Dispies doing it every day all day in ever op. Don't do it in BAM, please. You were invited into BAM for your ability to discuss things well-mannered and respecting others, or at least the founder's perceptions of those abilities  . So I have some confidence you can see how you're diving into your beliefs with me when not asked is something to be avoided. You can take up your views with the op, if you like, but the op's inquiry is fairly specific and ANY Dispensationalist entering the discussion should take care specifically NOT TO TAKE THINGS TOO FAR! because that is the only way they are going to prove an affirmative answer to this op's inquiry incorrect. So far all the DPers have by their own example evidenced the problem to be solved (and I suspect at least two of them haven't realized it). The op's main concern is the matter of "No-lordship Doctrine" that comes out of Dispensational Premillennialism, but it also cites several unique aspects of Dispensational theology the rest of the Church does NOT share, such as the hermeneutic separating Israel and the Church, the antinomian discarding of the Law, the denial of a current kingdom, and other disctinctions quite literally created by Dispensationalism (not scripture) and not shared historically with the rest of mainstream and orthodox Christianity. I will therefore encourage ALL the Dispensationalists choosing to dissent from this op to be very mindful HOW they respond and not just WHAT they respond with because either can end up inadvertently proving the op correct.... unintentionally and unawares. And I'm betting that's sort of one of the points being made by the op . You can prove the op correct or incorrect by providing one explicit statement from the Bible, one verse explictly stating a third temple of stone will be built (or openly and expressly acknowledging there is no such verse). As always, as is my general practice, I will give you (or anyone else) three opportunities. If and when the first fails, I will point out that is an inference, not an explicit statement and ask you to try again. I'll do that a second time kindly and with patience in genuine hope an example can be provided. After the third attempt I will not ask for a fourth try, I will point out the absence, note the argument from silence based on and inferential reading of God's word..... and then ask you to engage those facts in evidence revelvant to the specific concerns of this op. So I completely understand if you choose not to answer my question. The burden in this op is definitely on the Dispensationalist, and unfairly so. Just remeber, this isn't a moratorium on ALL of Dispensationalism and this op is NOT about eschatology. Try not to hijack the thread. It'll only prove the op correct. Where is the verse explicitly stating, not Dispensationally inferring, another temple will be built? |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Sept 27, 2022 13:04:31 GMT -8
1. A temple will be rebuilt. when is anyone's guess. without a temple. there can be no abomination of desolation spoken of By Daniel or Jesus 2. Matt 24 Jesus speaks of a GREAT tribulation, which has never been before or after. In which if he did not come. NO FLESH WOULD SURVIVE. That has not happened yet. 3. A rapture is not a physical return "boots on the ground" it is we meet him in the air. The world will not even see him. Appreciate the response but my questions were specifically intended for @bible Highlighter because of something specific he explicitly stated in his post. However, since answers were provided, I will ask you to provide me a specific statement in scripture that explicitly states a third temple will be built and not one that is interpreted to infer another future temple. I will also ask why you stick the word "GREAT" into the conversation when it does not change a single thing I posted. Jesus plainly stated the disciples would be handed over to tribulation and it would be a tribulation like none seen before or after. Lastly, I will observe that your own posts states things that aren't actually in the Bible but are specific positions asserted by Dispensational Premillennialism's reading of scripture and that by asserting the DPism you've answered the question asked in this op: Dispensationalists do take things too far! Therefore, let me ask you to SLOW DOWN. No one asked you the things you've posted and if you keep it up you'll end up doing what Dispensationalists always do: hijacking other people's ops to impose their theology on everyone else while ignoring the specifics of the op they are hijacking. ANYONE and everyone can go over to CARM, or Christian Forums, or Worthy, or just about any open forum and find Dispies doing it every day all day in ever op. Don't do it in BAM, please. You were invited into BAM for your ability to discuss things well-mannered and respecting others, or at least the founder's perceptions of those abilities . So I have some confidence you can see how you're diving into your beliefs with me when not asked is something to be avoided. You can take up your views with the op, if you like, but the op's inquiry is fairly specific and ANY Dispensationalist entering the discussion should take care specifically NOT TO TAKE THINGS TOO FAR! because that is the only way they are going to prove an affirmative answer to this op's inquiry incorrect. So far all the DPers have by their own example evidenced the problem to be solved (and I suspect at least two of them haven't realized it). The op's main concern is the matter of "No-lordship Doctrine" that comes out of Dispensational Premillennialism, but it also cites several unique aspects of Dispensational theology the rest of the Church does NOT share, such as the hermeneutic separating Israel and the Church, the antinomian discarding of the Law, the denial of a current kingdom, and other disctinctions quite literally created by Dispensationalism (not scripture) and not shared historically with the rest of mainstream and orthodox Christianity. I will therefore encourage ALL the Dispensationalists choosing to dissent from this op to be very mindful HOW they respond and not just WHAT they respond with because either can end up inadvertently proving the op correct.... unintentionally and unawares. And I'm betting that's sort of one of the points being made by the op . You can prove the op correct or incorrect by providing one explicit statement from the Bible, one verse explictly stating a third temple of stone will be built (or openly and expressly acknowledging there is no such verse). As always, as is my general practice, I will give you (or anyone else) three opportunities. If and when the first fails, I will point out that is an inference, not an explicit statement and ask you to try again. I'll do that a second time kindly and with patience in genuine hope an example can be provided. After the third attempt I will not ask for a fourth try, I will point out the absence, note the argument from silence based on and inferential reading of God's word..... and then ask you to engage those facts in evidence revelvant to the specific concerns of this op. So I completely understand if you choose not to answer my question. The burden in this op is definitely on the Dispensationalist, and unfairly so. Just remeber, this isn't a moratorium on ALL of Dispensationalism and this op is NOT about eschatology. Try not to hijack the thread. It'll only prove the op correct. Where is the verse explicitly stating, not Dispensationally inferring, another temple will be built? I did not add the word great. Jesus said the would be great tribulation. If anything, you left out the word great. Jesus also said it would be unlike anything before or after. You are trying to relate it to regular tribulation that all people (including us) suffer.. Using the words of Jesus themselves. you can not do this. This is what I added the word great. as fr the temple. If the Abomination of desolation has not yet occured (it has not) then it must be rebuilt for prophecy to be fulfilled. If there is no future temple. matt 24 will not be fulfilled. Let’s look at the passage 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
1. There will be an abomination of desolation. This is spoken of by daniel in the middle of the week or last 7 year period. 2. Immediately after this abomination of desolation. Which Jesus said EVERYONE will see STANDING in the holy place. There will be great tribulation such as has never been seen before or after 3. This tribulation will be so severe. That all life on earth will be threatened. Jesus said if he did not put it to an end. No flesh (life) would survive This period not only in Daniel but in matt 24 will end by the return of Christ. As the world will see him coming in the clouds. As for the rest of your post. You are mocking my belief. I am aloud to question what you are saying about my belief, and to also ask you specific questions to get you to look at the fact that maybe you are wrong. As you are me.. That is how we discuss things. You asked specific questions. And I answered those questions. You have an opportunity to respond to my questions and my comments, I pray you do.. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2022 13:45:57 GMT -8
Appreciate the response but my questions were specifically intended for @bible Highlighter because of something specific he explicitly stated in his post. However, since answers were provided, I will ask you to provide me a specific statement in scripture that explicitly states a third temple will be built and not one that is interpreted to infer another future temple. I will also ask why you stick the word "GREAT" into the conversation when it does not change a single thing I posted. Jesus plainly stated the disciples would be handed over to tribulation and it would be a tribulation like none seen before or after. Lastly, I will observe that your own posts states things that aren't actually in the Bible but are specific positions asserted by Dispensational Premillennialism's reading of scripture and that by asserting the DPism you've answered the question asked in this op: Dispensationalists do take things too far! Therefore, let me ask you to SLOW DOWN. No one asked you the things you've posted and if you keep it up you'll end up doing what Dispensationalists always do: hijacking other people's ops to impose their theology on everyone else while ignoring the specifics of the op they are hijacking. ANYONE and everyone can go over to CARM, or Christian Forums, or Worthy, or just about any open forum and find Dispies doing it every day all day in ever op. Don't do it in BAM, please. You were invited into BAM for your ability to discuss things well-mannered and respecting others, or at least the founder's perceptions of those abilities . So I have some confidence you can see how you're diving into your beliefs with me when not asked is something to be avoided. You can take up your views with the op, if you like, but the op's inquiry is fairly specific and ANY Dispensationalist entering the discussion should take care specifically NOT TO TAKE THINGS TOO FAR! because that is the only way they are going to prove an affirmative answer to this op's inquiry incorrect. So far all the DPers have by their own example evidenced the problem to be solved (and I suspect at least two of them haven't realized it). The op's main concern is the matter of "No-lordship Doctrine" that comes out of Dispensational Premillennialism, but it also cites several unique aspects of Dispensational theology the rest of the Church does NOT share, such as the hermeneutic separating Israel and the Church, the antinomian discarding of the Law, the denial of a current kingdom, and other disctinctions quite literally created by Dispensationalism (not scripture) and not shared historically with the rest of mainstream and orthodox Christianity. I will therefore encourage ALL the Dispensationalists choosing to dissent from this op to be very mindful HOW they respond and not just WHAT they respond with because either can end up inadvertently proving the op correct.... unintentionally and unawares. And I'm betting that's sort of one of the points being made by the op . You can prove the op correct or incorrect by providing one explicit statement from the Bible, one verse explictly stating a third temple of stone will be built (or openly and expressly acknowledging there is no such verse). As always, as is my general practice, I will give you (or anyone else) three opportunities. If and when the first fails, I will point out that is an inference, not an explicit statement and ask you to try again. I'll do that a second time kindly and with patience in genuine hope an example can be provided. After the third attempt I will not ask for a fourth try, I will point out the absence, note the argument from silence based on and inferential reading of God's word..... and then ask you to engage those facts in evidence revelvant to the specific concerns of this op. So I completely understand if you choose not to answer my question. The burden in this op is definitely on the Dispensationalist, and unfairly so. Just remeber, this isn't a moratorium on ALL of Dispensationalism and this op is NOT about eschatology. Try not to hijack the thread. It'll only prove the op correct. Where is the verse explicitly stating, not Dispensationally inferring, another temple will be built? I did not add the word great. Jesus said the would be great tribulation. If anything, you left out the word great. Jesus also said it would be unlike anything before or after. You are trying to relate it to regular tribulation that all people (including us) suffer.. Using the words of Jesus themselves. you can not do this. This is what I added the word great. The forest is being missed for the trees. I did use Jesus' words (whether or not I included the word "great"). No one is denying the greatness of the tribulation. What is being denied AND IGNORED is the fact Jesus plainly stated the disciples would go through it. This is true in both the gospels and the book of Revelation. This fact, this fact of scripture, necessarily precludes the pre-tribulational interpretation. - Yes, Jesus did say there would be a great tribulation.
- Yes, Jesus did say it would unlike anything before or after.
- No, I am NOT trying to relate it any "regular" tribulation. That is a gross misrepresentation of my post(s). NEVER said any such thing and I will thank you not to put words into my posts I never wrote.
- Yes, using Jesus' own words..... the disciples are handed over to tribulation and it is immediately after the tribulation the sign os the Son of Man appear.
Therefore, using the words of Jesus, the pre-trib interpretation is precluded. The disciples go through a great tribulation; they do not escape it. This is reiterated in Revelation. Arguing over the word "GREAT" does not change the facts of scripture, nor the point made in my previous post. It has nothing to do with the word "great" and everything to do with the fact the disciples, those in the Church, go through it. No pretrib rapture. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2022 13:52:56 GMT -8
Where is the verse explicitly stating, not Dispensationally inferring, another temple will be built? ........as fr the temple. If the Abomination of desolation has not yet occured (it has not) then it must be rebuilt for prophecy to be fulfilled. If there is no future temple. matt 24 will not be fulfilled. Let’s look at the passage 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
1. There will be an abomination of desolation. This is spoken of by daniel in the middle of the week or last 7 year period. 2. Immediately after this abomination of desolation. Which Jesus said EVERYONE will see STANDING in the holy place. There will be great tribulation such as has never been seen before or after 3. This tribulation will be so severe. That all life on earth will be threatened. Jesus said if he did not put it to an end. No flesh (life) would survive This period not only in Daniel but in matt 24 will end by the return of Christ. As the world will see him coming in the clouds. As for the rest of your post. You are mocking my belief. I am aloud to question what you are saying about my belief, and to also ask you specific questions to get you to look at the fact that maybe you are wrong. As you are me.. That is how we discuss things. You asked specific questions. And I answered those questions. You have an opportunity to respond to my questions and my comments, I pray you do.. Appreciate the attempt, but that's Strike 1. Swing and a miss. I explicitly asked for an explicit statement. None of that explicitly states a third temple will be built. I explicitly asked that an inferential interpretation NOT be posted! I explicitly stated if and when that happens, I will simply point out the inferential reading and ask my question again. I don't want your interpretation. I DO NOT want the Dispensational interpretation. What I am asking for is very plain, very specific, and NOT hard to provide if such a thing exists in the Bible. So give it another try. Do NOT show me a verse you interpret to indicate a future third temple. That is NOT what is being requested. Show me the verse explicitly stating a third temple of stone will be built. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Sept 28, 2022 3:19:23 GMT -8
I did not add the word great. Jesus said the would be great tribulation. If anything, you left out the word great. Jesus also said it would be unlike anything before or after. You are trying to relate it to regular tribulation that all people (including us) suffer.. Using the words of Jesus themselves. you can not do this. This is what I added the word great. The forest is being missed for the trees. I did use Jesus' words (whether or not I included the word "great"). No one is denying the greatness of the tribulation. What is being denied AND IGNORED is the fact Jesus plainly stated the disciples would go through it. This is true in both the gospels and the book of Revelation. This fact, this fact of scripture, necessarily precludes the pre-tribulational interpretation. - Yes, Jesus did say there would be a great tribulation.
- Yes, Jesus did say it would unlike anything before or after.
- No, I am NOT trying to relate it any "regular" tribulation. That is a gross misrepresentation of my post(s). NEVER said any such thing and I will thank you not to put words into my posts I never wrote.
- Yes, using Jesus' own words..... the disciples are handed over to tribulation and it is immediately after the tribulation the sign os the Son of Man appear.
Therefore, using the words of Jesus, the pre-trib interpretation is precluded. The disciples go through a great tribulation; they do not escape it. This is reiterated in Revelation. Arguing over the word "GREAT" does not change the facts of scripture, nor the point made in my previous post. It has nothing to do with the word "great" and everything to do with the fact the disciples, those in the Church, go through it. No pretrib rapture. Jesus did not say the disciples would go through it. He said they would go through tribulation. as we all will He said those who SAW the abomination of desolation STANDING in the holy place would go through that GREAT tribulation. Even if you think this AOD happened in 70 AD. most of the disciples were dead at that time. I am not talking about the rapture. I am talking about dispensationalsim. Not all dispensationalists are pre-trib rapture. |
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Post by eternallygrateful on Sept 28, 2022 3:21:30 GMT -8
........as fr the temple. If the Abomination of desolation has not yet occured (it has not) then it must be rebuilt for prophecy to be fulfilled. If there is no future temple. matt 24 will not be fulfilled. Let’s look at the passage 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
1. There will be an abomination of desolation. This is spoken of by daniel in the middle of the week or last 7 year period. 2. Immediately after this abomination of desolation. Which Jesus said EVERYONE will see STANDING in the holy place. There will be great tribulation such as has never been seen before or after 3. This tribulation will be so severe. That all life on earth will be threatened. Jesus said if he did not put it to an end. No flesh (life) would survive This period not only in Daniel but in matt 24 will end by the return of Christ. As the world will see him coming in the clouds. As for the rest of your post. You are mocking my belief. I am aloud to question what you are saying about my belief, and to also ask you specific questions to get you to look at the fact that maybe you are wrong. As you are me.. That is how we discuss things. You asked specific questions. And I answered those questions. You have an opportunity to respond to my questions and my comments, I pray you do.. Appreciate the attempt, but that's Strike 1. Swing and a miss. I explicitly asked for an explicit statement. None of that explicitly states a third temple will be built. I explicitly asked that an inferential interpretation NOT be posted! I explicitly stated if and when that happens, I will simply point out the inferential reading and ask my question again. I don't want your interpretation. I DO NOT want the Dispensational interpretation. What I am asking for is very plain, very specific, and NOT hard to provide if such a thing exists in the Bible. So give it another try. Do NOT show me a verse you interpret to indicate a future third temple. That is NOT what is being requested. Show me the verse explicitly stating a third temple of stone will be built. my friend, If you can not see it. I can not help you 1. You either have to believe the Abomination of desolation had to already occure 2. You have to not take Jesus literally when he said everyone will see the AOD standing in the holy place. if you are not one of these two people. You are forced to understand a temple will be rebuilt. If you do some study, Israel is promised to rebuild the temple as we speak.. So you will most likely witness this in your day. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2022 9:17:02 GMT -8
The forest is being missed for the trees. I did use Jesus' words (whether or not I included the word "great"). No one is denying the greatness of the tribulation. What is being denied AND IGNORED is the fact Jesus plainly stated the disciples would go through it. This is true in both the gospels and the book of Revelation. This fact, this fact of scripture, necessarily precludes the pre-tribulational interpretation. - Yes, Jesus did say there would be a great tribulation.
- Yes, Jesus did say it would unlike anything before or after.
- No, I am NOT trying to relate it any "regular" tribulation. That is a gross misrepresentation of my post(s). NEVER said any such thing and I will thank you not to put words into my posts I never wrote.
- Yes, using Jesus' own words..... the disciples are handed over to tribulation and it is immediately after the tribulation the sign os the Son of Man appear.
Therefore, using the words of Jesus, the pre-trib interpretation is precluded. The disciples go through a great tribulation; they do not escape it. This is reiterated in Revelation. Arguing over the word "GREAT" does not change the facts of scripture, nor the point made in my previous post. It has nothing to do with the word "great" and everything to do with the fact the disciples, those in the Church, go through it. No pretrib rapture. Jesus did not say the disciples would go through it. He said they would go through tribulation. as we all will Let's take a look at the scriptures, shall we? Matthew 24:4-31
And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. Therefore, when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. We see that the word "tribulation" is mentioned three times and in all three instances the word occurs in singular form, not plural form. There is, in fact, nothing indicating Jesus is speaking about multiple tribulations. The one, singular tribulation about which Jesus is speaking is said to be " a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world."
Jesus explicitly states, " they will deliver you to tribulation." Jesus explicitly states the "great tribulation" comes after a bunch of bad stuff that includes the AoD. Jesus explicitly states the disciples will see and hear all that bad stuff he is predicting. Jesus explicitly states the days will be cut short for the sake of the elect, otherwise no life would be saved, thereby indicating the elect will be there. Jesus explicitly states it is AFTER the tribulation of those days, the tribulation of the days of the great tribulation, that the sign of the Son of Man appears. Jesus explicitly states it is AFTER the tribulation of those days that the sign appears, and the angels gather his elect. That is what the text of the scripture actually states. What it does NOT state is there will be more than one tribulation. It does NOT state there will be a rapture before the great tribulation. It does NOT state the disciples will be gone before the great tribulation occurs. Jesus' statements preclude a pre-tribulation rapture. Yes, and the ones he said would see it were the disciples. There's no mention of non-disciples anywhere in the passage, and Jesus repeatedly states, " You will see..." and " You will hear..." Perhaps but I am not in any way asserting a preterism. Whether the text is read to have already passed or yet to come the fact is Jesus is speaking to the disciples and repeatedly using the word, " you"! The disciples, whether those in attendance that evening on the Mount of Olives or some disciples living in the future, it is disciples about whom Jesus is talking. Not once does Jesus state, " Jews will see X ," or " The pagans will see " Y ," or "Unspecified people of the far distant future will hear Z ." ALL of those interpretations would be additions to the text that require what is actually stated to be ignored. A person adding in any one other than the disciples would have to ignore the contexts of the earlier statements, the question of the disciples, the audience affiliations, and the temporal markers. It is a wholesale denial of scripture at the expense of imposing upon t an eschatological view invented in the 1800s. Then your concerns are off-topic from my post and wasting my time needlessly. My post explicitly stated the passages of Matthew 24 and Revelation preclude a pre-trib rapture. I didn't say anything about post-tribulation rapture, other than to affirm it. Most are and if you are an exception to the rule then you are using your personal views to argue an argument from the extremes, and thereby off-topic and wasting my time. Darby and the Dispensational Premillennialists do in fact assert a pretribulation rapture. The fact is you did in fact state, " Jesus did not say the disciples would go through it," and it is demonstrably proveable Jesus did say the disciples would go through a great tribulation like none seen since the beginning of the world. And if the " great tribulation" of Matthew 24 is the same " great tribulation" of Revelation chapters 2 and 7 then disciples definitely, undeniably go through the great tribulation. Revelation 2:18-23
"And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this: 'I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first. 'But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bondservants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. 'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.
The church in Thyatira, the bondservants of Christ, tolerates Jezebel and those bondservants of Christ who are led astray and commit adultery with her will be thrown into great tribulation. The same theme runs through Christ's words to all seven of Revelation's churches. Revelation 7:13-15
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. They were not raptured away to escape THE great tribulation; they came out of it. Non-Christians do not wash their robes in Christ's blood. In Matthew and Mark Jesus told his disciples they would go through THE great tribulation and in John's Revelation Jesus told him those who'd washed their robes in his blood come out of THE great tribulation. Dispensationalists who teach otherwise take things too far. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2022 9:29:26 GMT -8
Appreciate the attempt, but that's Strike 1. Swing and a miss. I explicitly asked for an explicit statement. None of that explicitly states a third temple will be built. I explicitly asked that an inferential interpretation NOT be posted! I explicitly stated if and when that happens, I will simply point out the inferential reading and ask my question again. I don't want your interpretation. I DO NOT want the Dispensational interpretation. What I am asking for is very plain, very specific, and NOT hard to provide if such a thing exists in the Bible. So give it another try. Do NOT show me a verse you interpret to indicate a future third temple. That is NOT what is being requested. Show me the verse explicitly stating a third temple of stone will be built. my friend, If you can not see it. I can not help you I am not asking you to "help" me see. I am asking you to proide any verse in scripture that explicitly states a third temple of stone will be built because an explicitly stated verse does not require any "seeing." It is self-evident. You are dodging the question and doing exactly what I said you'd be doing: posting verses that you read inferentially to say something they do not actually explicitly state, and then blaming me because I can't "see." It is a wretchedly ungodly practice. So... Strike 2. Another swing and a miss. No, I do not have to do any of that stuff because you are avoiding answering the question asked, trying to change the subject, and implicitly accusing me of blindness when all that was asked of you was to provide just one verse anywhere in scripture that explicitly states another temple of stone will be built. Show me the verse explicitly stating a third temple of stone will be built.And eg, perhaps it has escaped your recognition but when you post something that is interpreted to say something it does not actually state then it is you who is not reading scripture literally! Do not read scripture non-literally to make it say something it does not actually state. This is one of the reasons I have asked what I asked: show me the literal statement, the explicitly stated verse. PROVE you actually do read scripture literally AND do so with some consistency by posting the verse that explicitly states a third temple of stone will be built. When this exchange proves there is no such scripture you are going to learn I read scripture MUCH more literally than you. I will be able to point to scripture that actually explciticly states what I believe. You may disagree, but you won't be able to say I did not read the text literally. Now, if you would please be so kind as to stop avoiding the question and..... Show me the verse explicitly stating a third temple of stone will be built.
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Post by eternallygrateful on Sept 28, 2022 11:35:36 GMT -8
Jesus did not say the disciples would go through it. He said they would go through tribulation. as we all will Yes lets take a look Matthew 24:4-31 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. This is starting to really come into focus today. as the love of people will grow cold. Once again, This is pre-great tribulation Therefore, when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
THEN (after those things are completed THERE WILL BE GREAT TRIBULATION. as has never been before or after.
Try to read them as written, Jesus is mentioning a chain of events..Not every tribulation is the same..
once again, I am not arguing pre-trib. Please do not mention it again This is incorrect. This is not the disciples. as they would not be alive. He just spoke of many things which have not yet to this day occuring. So the end is not yet. nor is the abomination of desolation. which has not happened yet you need to look at context. You can only be the disciples if they are still alive when these events occure.. They have not occured yet. so you can not mean the disciples. Jesus is telling US or more importanly. those who would be living at this time who read his words. WHen YOU see this, then YOU need to run because THIS will happen. This thread asks the question. Does dispensationalists take it to far. I am responding to that. lets get matt 24 correct first ok? Jesus did not tell the disciples they would go through it.. again, Lets get matt 24 correct first. If we get this wrong. your view about dispensationalists is unsupportable |
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. So I have some confidence you can see how you're diving into your beliefs with me when not asked is something to be avoided. You can take up your views with the op, if you like, but the op's inquiry is fairly specific and ANY Dispensationalist entering the discussion should take care specifically NOT TO TAKE THINGS TOO FAR! because that is the only way they are going to prove an affirmative answer to this op's inquiry incorrect. So far all the DPers have by their own example evidenced the problem to be solved (and I suspect at least two of them haven't realized it).